One way to judge a leader is how to they lead a group that is struggling. He was fine when we were winning at the start of the year. However, when things started going south, I didn't see any signs of leadership. In my opinion, he not only put young guys out there in positions that were almost impossible, he almost put the blame on them. Most of his press conferences, his response was lack of execution.
I think sometimes his inability or unwillingness to communicate the overall plan to the media and the fans is really what draws our ire. I think it gives us the impression that A) he has no plan or B) he just isn't the one whom makes the plan and it isn't always communicated to him from the top. Either way, its hard to give him a good grade with that scenario. What I saw this year, was a team that began to struggle "mostly" due to injuries and lack of depth, FORCING Shelton to put players in positions that were impossible, not Shelton doing it for shits and giggs. That being said, was it handled in the best way possible? no. The backwards movement of Castro and Bae was a huge part of the struggles, and the summer swoon of Suwinski was downright horrific to watch. He can't be blamed for player performance, but he does need to explain HOW things improve, and how he will hold himself and his coaching team responsible for ensuring these kids listen and do what they need to do. Not just "work ethic" but coachability.
I really don’t know what to make of Shelton. His pedigree is solid and his players respect him. I think some of the criticism of his managing day to day is simply hindsight-is-20-20 nitpicking. He’s also been given a really lousy roster to work with through most of his tenure.
On the other hand, this year was really concerning due to the poor development of the players that are supposed to be the core of the next Pirate contending team. The failure to settle on clear roles —- whether positions or places in the lineup —- bordered on the criminal. The handling of Hank Davis especially was atrocious.
The timing of this poll is especially apt given the nomination of Jim Leyland for the Hall of Fame. Look, Leyland had Barry Bonds as of the third month of his managerial career. But as Bonds himself has testified, Leyland helped make him a superstar. From day one Leyland was in charge, and managed the roster brilliantly. He was a true leader. I don’t think there’s any way that Shelton is at Leyland’s level.
I’ve also looked at the job that Brandon Hyde has done in Baltimore. Guys come up there and hit the ground running. Is that because they are better prospects or because they are managed in such a way as to reach their full potential? Hard to say.
Anyway, Shelton should get one more year. But if the team’s core doesn’t develop next year, then I think he should be fired and replaced with someone who can take this team to the next level.
They hit the ground running due to better player development in the minors, has nothing to do with him. How a player does when they first arrive is about being ready and prepared. Not the coaches job. Now after a player experiences success or struggles after 150 ab, THAT is when the big league coaching staff is in charge of. Finding what the player is not doing that he was doing succesfully in the minors, OR making necessary adjustments to how they are being pitched here. Again, this is on the hitting coach, not shelton. In game management is really the only thing other than the lineup that shelton controls, and his ability to put together a consistent lineup is irritating, but i see the need to switch things up when everyone is struggling.......but not when they are succeeding. I come from a school where if a player has 4 hits one day, he plays the next. metrics be damned. Metrics cannot account for a player whom is on a roll, they are to be used when "all else is equal"
A few reasons why I really wanted Don Kelly to take over was that he is a local kid - born and bred. That's nice stuff, but he played in MLB for 8 or 9 years, and he did so under some excellent Managers, one being Jim Leyland. Leyland was intelligent about the game, a leader, and tough - nobody who played for him ever doubted who the boss was in that dugout. Shelton seems to be a good guy, like everybody's buddy - he's a bench coach type. Kelly I see as a Craig Counsell type who will take charge and has the baseball background and smarts to be moves ahead in a game.
I'll give Shelton and those who set his management paradigm, a C-. I thought they did a much better job with the bullpen this year: not overusing Bednar with so many 2 inning, 30-pitch outings that ruined him for 3 days and ultimately put him on the IL. They managed to finesse around having only 2 reliable starters in the final two months. However, they still have this rigid give innings to guys approach instead of matching relievers up to batters and situations. Look at how Lovullo, Thomson, and Baker have used their bullpens in the post-season. That is how you do it. If that is optimal, why is it not done all season long? They know it is optimal.
I though the Pirates did a very good job running the bases this year. The base-running metrics just don't take into account many things that contribute (such as busting up double plays with take-out slides and so forth). I am not concerned with what the metrics say. The Pirates did a great job on the bases this year. Hope to see more of this.
The playing guys out of position at the major-league level has to stop if they intend to be a serious team. There is no excuse at this point to be playing guys who have spent 2-4 years in the Pirates minor league system at a completely new position. This speaks to a lack of planning and disorganization throughout the organization that would have heads rolling if the Pirates did not have a hands-off owner who pays little attention to the processes that produce his product. If this nonsense continues into next year, Cherington, Shelton, all of them need to be terminated with prejudice immediately.
I begrudgingly gave Shelton a C for this year. Over his tenure I think he and his staff have been an F. But it was better this year. Not as many terrible managing decisions. Mostly understandable lineups. Development of some players. His beat yr by far.
Actually I gave Shelton a C minus for this year. It was his best year by far. The Cruz injury and pitching injuries dealt him a bad hand. He held together a solid bullpen and by mid summer actually started letting the kids play and learn. The team won a lot more games and never quit.
That said. His total body of work for his tenure is still an F. The continued poor fundamentals, playing guys out of position, bunt/steal/hit strategies and Bednar usage at times still boggle the mind. I still see no accountability for bonehead plays or lack of focus issues. IF there ever is the next great Pirate team, Derek Shelton will not be the manager.
I would have fired him after 2022. The extension was nutsy cook-coo. My guess is that he will get at least another year. My fear is that more improvement will get the team around .500 next year and the brain trust will keep him around. That would be a huge mistake. The guy is a poor ML manager.
I voted Derek Shelton as a "D" for 2023. In his first three years he was an "F" in that it was obvious that he was definitely in a Manager Apprenticeship Program. But, he is probably cheap and knows his place. I remember a time when the salary of the Manager was public knowledge
Meh. They won 14 more games in spite of dealing with significant loss of rotation depth through injuries, and they doing a mediocre job in FA. BUT the way certain players were used and misused was hard to watch. Meh is the best I can muster.
The “improvement” just illustrates to me what a horrific job this mgmt team did the first three years. It’s HARD to be well below .400 that long. Nothing dramatic changed. Other than Bednar, nobody had a great year. No hitter had an .800 OPS. No starter had an ERA below 4.00. The turnaround in Aug/Sept didn’t result from a wave of super-rookies. They all struggled except Triolo, and he got sent down in favor of Vinny Capra.
The only real change this year was that for the first time in four years, they resembled a major league team for half a season. Nobody gets “credit” for that. Unless and until they take the next step, their list of accomplishments is blank.
You’re dead on. This year demonstrated that they had adequate pieces to be a .500 club, but they are far from optimizing and for so many players to under perform expectations the last few years... hard to credit leadership when so many fail to perform.
Keller and oviedo, plus the myriad of pen arms all took a step forward this year. Hayes and suwinski are the two big hitters who saw improvement this year
The hubris of most fans is that they can be a better baseball manager than anyone in the dugout and their strategy would always work. Every failure on the field is the managers fault... the players never do the fundamentals right because of the manager... well Francona, Bochy, Baker, LaRussa, Counsell, Snitker, Leyland... all had different strategies and were/are successful. Their common trait is to be able to lead men, to bring out the best in the players by making them want to play their hardest for the sake of the team. Shelton seems to have that quality, the Pirates play hard and the players want to be successful for their teammates the fans and the staff. Looking forward to a bright future with this management team.
"ordering players to bunt who don't know how to bunt" about sums it up. To order an incompetent to carry out a strategy that has been questioned. Why did I give him a D?
Dusty Baker had Altuve, one of the most clutch hitters in post-season baseball history, bunt in a crucial spot last night in the biggest game of the season thus far for his team.
News flash, baseball Manager’s have always, and will always, use bunting as a tool to help them win games. Furthermore, it’s a slap in the face to an athlete skilled enough to reach the pinnacle of his field, hitting in the major leagues, to claim he can’t do the most rudimentary part of that job.
Agree with many of Wilbur’s takes, but in this instance, he and you are simply put, being Drama Queens.
One way to judge a leader is how to they lead a group that is struggling. He was fine when we were winning at the start of the year. However, when things started going south, I didn't see any signs of leadership. In my opinion, he not only put young guys out there in positions that were almost impossible, he almost put the blame on them. Most of his press conferences, his response was lack of execution.
I think sometimes his inability or unwillingness to communicate the overall plan to the media and the fans is really what draws our ire. I think it gives us the impression that A) he has no plan or B) he just isn't the one whom makes the plan and it isn't always communicated to him from the top. Either way, its hard to give him a good grade with that scenario. What I saw this year, was a team that began to struggle "mostly" due to injuries and lack of depth, FORCING Shelton to put players in positions that were impossible, not Shelton doing it for shits and giggs. That being said, was it handled in the best way possible? no. The backwards movement of Castro and Bae was a huge part of the struggles, and the summer swoon of Suwinski was downright horrific to watch. He can't be blamed for player performance, but he does need to explain HOW things improve, and how he will hold himself and his coaching team responsible for ensuring these kids listen and do what they need to do. Not just "work ethic" but coachability.
I really don’t know what to make of Shelton. His pedigree is solid and his players respect him. I think some of the criticism of his managing day to day is simply hindsight-is-20-20 nitpicking. He’s also been given a really lousy roster to work with through most of his tenure.
On the other hand, this year was really concerning due to the poor development of the players that are supposed to be the core of the next Pirate contending team. The failure to settle on clear roles —- whether positions or places in the lineup —- bordered on the criminal. The handling of Hank Davis especially was atrocious.
The timing of this poll is especially apt given the nomination of Jim Leyland for the Hall of Fame. Look, Leyland had Barry Bonds as of the third month of his managerial career. But as Bonds himself has testified, Leyland helped make him a superstar. From day one Leyland was in charge, and managed the roster brilliantly. He was a true leader. I don’t think there’s any way that Shelton is at Leyland’s level.
I’ve also looked at the job that Brandon Hyde has done in Baltimore. Guys come up there and hit the ground running. Is that because they are better prospects or because they are managed in such a way as to reach their full potential? Hard to say.
Anyway, Shelton should get one more year. But if the team’s core doesn’t develop next year, then I think he should be fired and replaced with someone who can take this team to the next level.
They hit the ground running due to better player development in the minors, has nothing to do with him. How a player does when they first arrive is about being ready and prepared. Not the coaches job. Now after a player experiences success or struggles after 150 ab, THAT is when the big league coaching staff is in charge of. Finding what the player is not doing that he was doing succesfully in the minors, OR making necessary adjustments to how they are being pitched here. Again, this is on the hitting coach, not shelton. In game management is really the only thing other than the lineup that shelton controls, and his ability to put together a consistent lineup is irritating, but i see the need to switch things up when everyone is struggling.......but not when they are succeeding. I come from a school where if a player has 4 hits one day, he plays the next. metrics be damned. Metrics cannot account for a player whom is on a roll, they are to be used when "all else is equal"
suppossedly Shelton is Leyland´s protege and they eat breakfast every sunday together in cranberry´s lemieux facility
cant think of any other reason shelton still has a job with us
A few reasons why I really wanted Don Kelly to take over was that he is a local kid - born and bred. That's nice stuff, but he played in MLB for 8 or 9 years, and he did so under some excellent Managers, one being Jim Leyland. Leyland was intelligent about the game, a leader, and tough - nobody who played for him ever doubted who the boss was in that dugout. Shelton seems to be a good guy, like everybody's buddy - he's a bench coach type. Kelly I see as a Craig Counsell type who will take charge and has the baseball background and smarts to be moves ahead in a game.
I missed that one. Somehow Leyland’s skills do not seem to be transferring very well.
why is it necessary for his contract to be so secretive?
Hell, I think he was 3 years into his contract before it was made public that he had a 4 year contract. BC is the ventriloquist!
D for Dereck
also D for dummy
I'll give Shelton and those who set his management paradigm, a C-. I thought they did a much better job with the bullpen this year: not overusing Bednar with so many 2 inning, 30-pitch outings that ruined him for 3 days and ultimately put him on the IL. They managed to finesse around having only 2 reliable starters in the final two months. However, they still have this rigid give innings to guys approach instead of matching relievers up to batters and situations. Look at how Lovullo, Thomson, and Baker have used their bullpens in the post-season. That is how you do it. If that is optimal, why is it not done all season long? They know it is optimal.
I though the Pirates did a very good job running the bases this year. The base-running metrics just don't take into account many things that contribute (such as busting up double plays with take-out slides and so forth). I am not concerned with what the metrics say. The Pirates did a great job on the bases this year. Hope to see more of this.
The playing guys out of position at the major-league level has to stop if they intend to be a serious team. There is no excuse at this point to be playing guys who have spent 2-4 years in the Pirates minor league system at a completely new position. This speaks to a lack of planning and disorganization throughout the organization that would have heads rolling if the Pirates did not have a hands-off owner who pays little attention to the processes that produce his product. If this nonsense continues into next year, Cherington, Shelton, all of them need to be terminated with prejudice immediately.
I begrudgingly gave Shelton a C for this year. Over his tenure I think he and his staff have been an F. But it was better this year. Not as many terrible managing decisions. Mostly understandable lineups. Development of some players. His beat yr by far.
I felt like he was managing the Phillies last night when Kimbrel was left in to blow the game.
Actually I gave Shelton a C minus for this year. It was his best year by far. The Cruz injury and pitching injuries dealt him a bad hand. He held together a solid bullpen and by mid summer actually started letting the kids play and learn. The team won a lot more games and never quit.
That said. His total body of work for his tenure is still an F. The continued poor fundamentals, playing guys out of position, bunt/steal/hit strategies and Bednar usage at times still boggle the mind. I still see no accountability for bonehead plays or lack of focus issues. IF there ever is the next great Pirate team, Derek Shelton will not be the manager.
I would have fired him after 2022. The extension was nutsy cook-coo. My guess is that he will get at least another year. My fear is that more improvement will get the team around .500 next year and the brain trust will keep him around. That would be a huge mistake. The guy is a poor ML manager.
I voted Derek Shelton as a "D" for 2023. In his first three years he was an "F" in that it was obvious that he was definitely in a Manager Apprenticeship Program. But, he is probably cheap and knows his place. I remember a time when the salary of the Manager was public knowledge
Meh. They won 14 more games in spite of dealing with significant loss of rotation depth through injuries, and they doing a mediocre job in FA. BUT the way certain players were used and misused was hard to watch. Meh is the best I can muster.
The “improvement” just illustrates to me what a horrific job this mgmt team did the first three years. It’s HARD to be well below .400 that long. Nothing dramatic changed. Other than Bednar, nobody had a great year. No hitter had an .800 OPS. No starter had an ERA below 4.00. The turnaround in Aug/Sept didn’t result from a wave of super-rookies. They all struggled except Triolo, and he got sent down in favor of Vinny Capra.
The only real change this year was that for the first time in four years, they resembled a major league team for half a season. Nobody gets “credit” for that. Unless and until they take the next step, their list of accomplishments is blank.
Or we can say the improvement was simply a result of Shelton making the same same dumb moves but with some better players.
You’re dead on. This year demonstrated that they had adequate pieces to be a .500 club, but they are far from optimizing and for so many players to under perform expectations the last few years... hard to credit leadership when so many fail to perform.
I’m grading the whole staff. F
Pitchers regressed- Ortiz, Roasny, Priester, inconsistencies with Keller.
Hitters- who vastly improved? I know the rookies are young, but where is the substantial growth?
Keller and oviedo, plus the myriad of pen arms all took a step forward this year. Hayes and suwinski are the two big hitters who saw improvement this year
The hubris of most fans is that they can be a better baseball manager than anyone in the dugout and their strategy would always work. Every failure on the field is the managers fault... the players never do the fundamentals right because of the manager... well Francona, Bochy, Baker, LaRussa, Counsell, Snitker, Leyland... all had different strategies and were/are successful. Their common trait is to be able to lead men, to bring out the best in the players by making them want to play their hardest for the sake of the team. Shelton seems to have that quality, the Pirates play hard and the players want to be successful for their teammates the fans and the staff. Looking forward to a bright future with this management team.
Like Hayes eating seeds while a runner is rounding third
Like Castro's cell phone falling out SLIDING at third
Both really happened, not fake news
And sweet Jesus this one and maybe someone saw this at a game i went to just 6 weeks ago
DOWN by 3 runs, Shelty made 4 defensive moves in bottom 8
Palacios PH for Williams and stayed in RF
Joe RF to 1B,
Triolo 1B to 2B
Peggy 2B to SS
CJ is not a 1B and why you don't play musical positions
top 9
Unsure why Joe was confused
WIth 2 outs, he fields a play unassisted, springs off the bag and fires it around the horn to Hayes who's back is turned on his way to the dugout
THE BALL WIZZED BY HAYES
Could you imagine if the ball was on target? Hayes knocked out, concussed or both
We are all screwed, if they win, he stays
"ordering players to bunt who don't know how to bunt" about sums it up. To order an incompetent to carry out a strategy that has been questioned. Why did I give him a D?
Dusty Baker had Altuve, one of the most clutch hitters in post-season baseball history, bunt in a crucial spot last night in the biggest game of the season thus far for his team.
News flash, baseball Manager’s have always, and will always, use bunting as a tool to help them win games. Furthermore, it’s a slap in the face to an athlete skilled enough to reach the pinnacle of his field, hitting in the major leagues, to claim he can’t do the most rudimentary part of that job.
Agree with many of Wilbur’s takes, but in this instance, he and you are simply put, being Drama Queens.
The must rudimentary part of the job evaded several Pirates more than once last year.
Baseball is a game where often times failures exceed successes.
Just as an aside: It's an honor to be included with Wilbur.
Now that’s something we can agree on.