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In one day, Trib, P2 and Bucsdugout have articles blaming Nutting for all the Pirates ills. I hope that feels good Nickles!

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Bob Nutting: "who?"

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I'm sure a guy who inherited his wealth from newspapers at least knows the Trib lol

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What I don’t understand is why there is no “fire in the belly” from Nutting to win? He can make money losing or winning, so why not build a team and organization he can brag about? It is very strange to me.

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He's rich. He's got no fire in the belly whatsoever.

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I can give the dude a Carolina reaper. May get things a lil fired up. Damn transition glasses would be foggy as all get out.

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Born rich. His family wealth is long past the creating wealth with risk. It is now aquire more with limited risk.

I actually think Bob's a pretty good guy other than owning the Pirates. He keeps the ballpark looking good (he was probably furious over the drainage issue last week), does good charity work and wants the team to do well, just doesn't want to risk personal wealth to do it.

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And born rich into an industry that exists to manufacture consent. No doubt he figures fan ire is the cost of doing business.

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Hopefully #FireCherington sentiment is picking up steam. The rabble at Bucsdugout just got a frontpage article that claims he's the real problem. I still think it goes 1. Nutting 2. Cherington 3. Shelton in that order but unless someone can unearth some fraud or money laundering scandal wrt Nutting, we're probably stuck with him.

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You gotta throw Williams in there, Hiring a hockey guy as president never made sense (so you could just consider this a Nutting problem) and that's what led to the "safe" hire of Cherington via a search firm despite no experience with a low revenue organization that must succeed through the draft, signing IFAs, and development. Cherington could talk the talk but he had never walked the walk or even been part of a FO that had walked the walk. The whole thing was botched from the beginning--one bad hire begat the next bad hire which begat the next bad hire.

I can't help thinking that a baseball guy as president would have led to hiring someone who had worked in the FO of one of the smaller market teams that had developed a model of sustained success (TB, Milwaukee, Cleveland, ...).

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I posted the above before reading Tim's article, but Tim does a great job laying out the concerns from top to bottom:

https://piratesprospects.com/2024/08/the-pittsburgh-pirates-are-failing-from-owner-bob-nutting-to-the-dominican-academy.html

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Largely in agreement but here's some classic Tim Williams psychobabble hidden in there:

"It’s important to have the female perspective in a male-dominated industry for many reasons. One of those reasons is that every human being contains the masculine and the feminine, and not every baseball player will respond to the classic, almost toxic-masculine approach to coaching and development that has historically prevailed in this game."

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Sounds like you need a healthier relationship with your feminine side. That was evident to me seeing your posts from yesterday.

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Dude, don't give advice while living in your Nissan haha. Sure, sure, you're living in your Nissan on purpose. Just like you were running a business when you were nine. Enjoy your journey to your feminine side.

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That was only temporary to save money. Also, I'd never own a Nissan.

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We need more Ted Williams types back in coaching.

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Agreed. Play quality has gone down since they've gone away.

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That's fair. I think Nutting just wanted a Pittsburgh guy in Williams but a baseball guy would have been better than a Pittsburgh guy for sure. Best I can tell, all Williams does is work on charity and marketing stuff.

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didnt have to do with the new tv / streaming deal?

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Might have, no idea.

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This is correct. If this team continues to plummet, which seems to be a foregone conclusion at this point, it's probably going to cause a lot of second guessing from people who may have been considering ticket packages for next year on the strength of Skenes and the rotation. There is no evidence that Cherington can build a roster around it, especially with Bob's tight purse strings. Payroll doesn't go up. Dumpster diving continues. Circle of life.

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While two younger guys, who might be part of the Pirate’s future assuming they actually have one, are tearing it up in AAA, two players still on the active roster (there are others as well but just for illustration purposes) not only aren’t producing but aren’t even playing. Connor Joe has 9 ABs this month with 1 hit and Triolo has 10 ABs with zero hits.

BC either isn’t paying attention, which is certainly a possibility, or is making some kind of statement. “Wait ‘til next year” will always be part of his sales pitch and bringing up the new guys might put a damper on that especially if they struggle some. He also always seems to have “F/U Pirate fans” just under the surface of most things he says because it feeds that gigantic ego of his. Whatever it is, it’s pouring cold water not only on the remainder of this year but on hope for the future. How that can be good for Nutting is not obvious but you can bet he thinks it’s benefitting him somehow.

Sad. Just sad.

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I'm just at a point, not too dissimilar to the end of NH's tenure, where aside from pitching, I don't think whoever they promote will hit. Bae had a .931 OPS in Indy. Henry Davis has a .975 OPS. Going back to last year prior to his very poor struggles this year, Davis had a 1.120 OPS in Triple-A. Nick Gonzales and his 1.039 OPS in Indy was beginning to really struggle again, prior to his injury.

The entire hitting department needs to be revamped, or it'll likely just be a continuation. Just this past off-season, people were buying into Triolo. I still wanna know what happened to Peguero. He hasn't even been good enough in Triple-A to warrant showing he's not good enough in MLB.

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

They clearly aren't moving mountains to make dudes better, but looking at the players individually makes it awful tough to justify they're making them any worse. Unlike the Huntington Era pitching dev failure, this one seems to be about identifying talent more than developing it.

Both Gonzales and Davis have unorthodox swings that just don't work in big league baseball. The comps for Gonzo - Hiura, Keiboom, Downs, etc - have all busted with their respective teams. Hank spent the winter under the best hitting minds in the world overhauling his swing and somehow came out worse.

The rebuild trades almost exclusively targeted huge variance hitters - Escotto, Peguero, Head, CSN, Rodriguez - that a decade ago would've never gotten shoved up prospect lists before showing they could hit a lick.

The smoking gun with Huntington dev was when dudes starting going elsewhere and getting better. They've yet to have that happen once with Cherington's hitters. Not a single Joey Bart-like case.

Nobody could argue this is anything close to one of the best dev orgs, which at the end of the day is what they have to be, but even just looking at successes and failures within their own division shows they're also clearly not the worst.

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But also, yeah, I do think this regime particularly when it comes to hitters, doesn't know what they're doing in any aspect, whether it's targeting or developing hitters. The BDLC and IKF acquisitions were/are both mind boggling.

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

Both of those, complete headscratchers.

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You can even ask Murphy. I was looking at their Batter Cards on TJ Stats, and I was legit yelling, "ADAM FRAZIER AND IKF ARE THE SAME PERSON!!! LITERALLY THE EXACT. SAME. PERSON!!!!!"

Ben bought the hype, and got the regression, but with better defense.

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Dude, yes!

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It's probably still too soon to make any definitive theories, yes. What interesting with Bart, is he was showing progress prior to being traded to the Pirates, and luckily carried that right to Pittsburgh. I kind of wish Cal Mitchell was called up, cause at least on the surface and some of his underlying numbers it appears he has righted his misdirection. Diego A. Castillo is another interesting case, but also not MLB proven, that his approach seemed to basically do a complete flip back to what was working for him.

Definitely no Victor Robles cases as of yet though lol

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The Athletic article is the counter with dudes in the system laughing at Movement Guru Bart from Daneland. The players are not bought into Cherington's goofball new age bullshit. MAT has been significantly worse here. Rowdy was significantly worse until he started failing his own way by his own accord. Hayes has been the worst qualified hitter in all of MLB against RHP when he's not bucking internal consensus coaching and secretly working with Nunnally. Etc etc.

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I'm not familiar with the article, can you explain?

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It's too long to really just distill: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5286289/2024/02/21/pirates-losing-mlb-owner/

TL:DR when Cole Tucker is rolling his eyes about your hitting development, you might have a buyin problem.

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

They need to get Yorke and Cook up asap. They should probably only take advice from Cutch and Reynolds as far as hitting is concerned once they are up. Need to keep them away from this organizational suck as much as possible.

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I agree f you Pirates fans is the unspoken mantra every time Ben's mouth opens. It doesn't truly matter what happens with Cook or Yorke. This team is never going to win anything meaningful with Cherington and Shelton involved. It's unlikely it ever will unless Nutting sells. Skenes will be in LA or NY by 2028 looking for his first playoff win.

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Marlins just cleaned house in their FO. 2 assistant GMs canned, head of int'l scouting. The two AGMs were the guys who thought they shouldn't have traded Bryan de la Cruz lol. I wonder if Cherington tries to hire Oz Ocampo. He was a bad scout for the Pirates prior to heading to the Marlins to be a bad AGM.

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MAN. I'm building up one helluva cartload of carrots.

Wabbit

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Excited for the recap, Wabbit

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Cherington says Cruz must play better defense at SS and yet the guy never gets benched: https://rumbunter.com/posts/ben-cherington-calls-out-pirates-star-oneil-cruz-for-defensive-woes-01j53jadvphh

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author

I don't think the issue is he should be benched, it's that the GM can say out loud with his mouth that a player that has been criticized for half a decade about probably not being able to stick at a position, just needs to "play better defense". They put him in this position. Ben is talking out both sides of his mouth.

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Yeah, because benching your best position player is a great idea.

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When he's costing games by not keeping his head in the game, sit him down for a game or two, yeah. Pull him in the middle of the game so he feels a little bit of shame. Our society could use a lot more shame that it gets these days. Dairy Queen Derek ofc doesn't use that tool though.

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Yeah, because embarrassing guys always works. Amazing how some fans believe something that stupid.

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The only time I think it’s acceptable to bench a guy mid-game is a lack of hustle. Physical mistakes, be they errors or K’s, isn’t something to bench a player mid game for. Giving a guy a day off for a mental break if he’s in a hitting or fielding slump? Sure. I don’t really look at that as a benching, and more of a giving a guy who is fighting it a break.

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Well, you can also bench a guy to solve the problem of being 6'7" in a game not made for players like that. Then he'll play like he's 6'1". Works every time.

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Rushing a pivotal doubleplay that would have gotten a pitcher out of a jam to the point of just missing the ball is on my list for benchable especially when it brought the player into a tie for the MLB lead in errors committed.

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I agree on this point. It is precisely because of his talent and importance that you sit him. You do it respectfully and business like, there is no need to humiliate him, but that error cannot happen in that circumstance. You replace him the next inning or pinch hit if he is due up. You address him privately and also respectfully talk about the error and the player in the post game interview and then you start him the next game.

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Again, physical errors and not worth benching.

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He's already embarrassing himself. Might as well sit the kid down and tell him to stop playing like a clown. Hell, tell him next time he has a 2+ error game he's either sitting or going out in the field wearing a clown nose. That works too.

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It's a minor detail but I don't understand why Ortiz wasn't charged with 2 earned runs. There was the Cruz error but I've always heard that you can't assume double plays on errors and if they had recorded a single out there, the run still would have scored on the sac fly to Bae.

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Was that the inning with BDLC's error? Maybe they are saying he shouldnt have been a base forward?

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That was the unearned run charged to Nicolas in the 8th.

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author
Aug 14·edited Aug 14Author

(I'm incorrect)

It's because Arraez scored, who "should've" been out, if Cruz had caught that ball.

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

It was Profer who should have been out; Arraez went from 2nd to 3rd on the play and wasn't involved. It's like they assumed that on a fielder's choice the lead runner is the one who would be out even though in the actual play that wasn't the case. Maybe that's the rule--assume the lead runner is removed on a fielder's choice when determining earned runs.

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Yep. You're right, my bad. I fully agree on your take.

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The ship has sunk.

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I was hoping to at least make it to week 3 of preseason before turning most of my attention to football.

This has been worse than ‘11 and ‘12 for me. Maybe just recency bias, as those were gut wrenching seasons, too.

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

Kiley has his updated 100 out. Three Bucs on there: Bubba (43), Griffin (86), TJ 94. He also has Ashcraft as a NR (notable riser).

Compared to the rest of the division, it’s predictably not great. The Cubs have six in the top 100, Brewers have five, Reds have four, Cards have three.

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The Brewers sting. They are doing it without the benefit of the high picks.

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But, something something "acquire and develop talent"

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

Year 5, last in the NL Central in the standings and farm system rankings. Probably only Nutting would put up with such a failure for another year (I have no expectations of changes in the offseason other than perhaps Haines).

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

They were gonna take a hit in any lists because they graduated two huge arms. From the preseason list, they also had TJ and Harrington-with this list, TJ is still on it (albeit 60 spots lower), Harrington drops off, Bubba shoots way up onto it, and the new draftee is on it.

The concerning part to me is, reading through this list, how lacking they are in turning down LA signings and 3rd rounders or lower into legitimate prospects, with the notable exception of Bubba. Kiley heavily wrote up the Brewers prospects on this list, both of which were an under the radar international signing and a sixth round pick.

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Wonder why harrington fell off? Hes had a strong season, at least strong enough I wouldnt expect him to drop out

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His velocity has been more 90 to 92 touching 94 than sitting 93 to 94 touching 96 lately. Just an observation over his last few starts.

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His first 10 innings in AAA have been bad and all the prospects in the rule 4 draft were added to lists. This happens to guys on the edge every year.

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Yeah, the Pirates generally get players on the list due to draft pedigree, and rarely see a top 100 riser due to developmental gains. And even then, their top 100 draft guys (particularly hitters: Termarr, Nicky G) will fall off lists. Pirates have a lot of IFA guys populating their lists now, but that's a product of a weak system than it is developmental gains. A Jhonny Severino might light up a list for another organization, but with the Pirates, you can't even be certain he'll make it to Double-A.

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Aug 14Liked by NolaJeffy(BnP)

The drop may not be that surprising, though our system is still filled with prospects that came from the benefit of drafting high with more money to spend, but that it doesn't imply the sustainable model that Cherington and Shelton promoted when they were hired. Plus, if we've graduated enough talent to drop from top 5 to bottom 10, the major league team should be better if development is working.

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I don’t believe during Huntington’s tenure we ever dropped this low? Particularly in the early years after he had so many high picks.

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There's just no way to see Cherington's rebuild as anything other than a failure at this point. Completely imbalanced roster depending heavily on young pitchers his team is determined to baby. Bad relief core. Bad on base game. Terrible hitting sequencing.

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is there a magic number to firing the manager?

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Hard to distinguish what's happening now from when Hurdle supposedly lost the team in '19. Baserunning blunders (e.g., Rowdy giving up not one but two bases and possibly a run by trotting to 1st and then ignoring the 3B coach rounding 2nd), poor fielding, sleepwalking through ABs...Shelton can talk about their fight but when he did that the other day, it was only two swings by Cutch (and of course we know Cutch ain't going to quit) that was the difference in a shutout and the appearance of a team fighting until the end.

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Not a number, a color. If Bob sees red on the ledger.

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Man, this has turned into a disappointing season.

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Cherington took some great developments with the rotation and sucked everything positive out of them by not giving a shit and letting the rest of the roster rot. He has a unique ability to make baseball bad.

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I can't believe more people can't see he is worse than Littlefield.

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I’m coming around on this more and more. I struggle with the comparison because Littlefield was in the stone ages in terms of data and analytics, whereas Cherington seems to want to be on the cutting edge in terms of that stuff.

But, Littlefield was merely inept in a bumbling sort of way. There’s something about how this front office sells mediocrity that’s deeply off putting. Like trying to sell Bryan De La Cruz as some sort of major upgrade is laughable. Yet many in the media and fan base seem content to nod along and direct their ire at anyone who questions the front office.

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Don't forget that this is Cherington's second chance, Littlefield really wasn't qualified for his first. To squander a second opportunity is even worse because it shows you learned nothing from your first go around.

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I think what Ben learned from his first go around was to find a MLB owner who's a real sucker who knows absolutely nothing about baseball and winning in sports and work for him. He's executing that plan to a t. It's looking like it probably bought him 8 years of really solid pay! He'd be around 53 when his 8 years are up and could just take some bs scouting or player dev job where he does as much good as he is now as GM—none—and then retire. This is the Amherst baseball guy's plan for failing upward!

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He also learned how to say nothing in a lot of words. He probably took a class on it at Amherst, he's probably inline to teach the course soon.

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I'm constantly bemused by the fact that so many Pirate fans think it's perfectly normal or acceptable to have so many really awful players on the roster. Even Littlefield wouldn't have put up with anywhere near the horrendous level of play Cherington happily accepts.

That's why this season is especially frustrating. They have some actual good players, phenomenal in at least one case, but Cherington's surrounded them with a minor league team and he has no desire to change that.

Littlefield was a bad GM, but Cherington is something else entirely, something worse.

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Not only that it’s normal to have awful players on the roster but VALUING them. Discuss (fill in the blank sub-replacement level player) with a portion of the fan base and the response is: “you can’t get rid of that guy, they can’t replace him!” Meanwhile, there’s 8 players exactly like that guy on waivers.

What I find so vexing about it is that some of these same people never would have tolerated such antics under Bonifay, Littlefield, Huntington, etc.

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I think of this as Aaron Judge Syndrome. If we can't get Aaron Judge, then we just have to put up with the guy with the 35 wRC+. I absolutely don't understand what's so hard to understand about the fact that, when you have one of the 5-10 worst players in MLB, it's hard NOT to get an upgrade by replacing him.

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I think there’s some sort of scarcity mindset that afflicts our fan base, driven by years of losing. The thought process is that if you get rid of someone the replacement is bound to be worse.

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We're all being programmed to be obsequious to our betters. That's what the moderated internet known as web 2 is _for_. That's how certain political candidates can create the illusion of hype that becomes a reality via coordinated media support and compliance all the while sitting for zero interviews, not even bothering to have a policy tab on their website and having never won a single vote outside their homestate let alone a primary delegate. It carries over in all facets of internet "community". A bunch of thoughtless, uncritical tame pigeons. This is where the "hey, be an optimist! look the other way. let us all enjoy the team's worrying but almost good play" came from prior to the collapse, too. All everyone wants is vibes and not reality.

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It always raises the level of discussion when the Newsmax spokesperson shows up to thoughtlessly and tamely regurgitate laughable talking points handed down by a desperate, losing campaign flailing around for mud to throw...such keen parroting of these lamely canned talking points has really enlightened us all about the state of the Pittsburgh PIrates!

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Too busy snitching and policing comment sections for courteousness and obsequiousness to notice.

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Clever though! Always clever.

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