It’s a gamble with the excuse that is the best option a small market has. Let’s hope the gamble for once pays off, but I’ll be floored if a 27 year old with half season under his belt is a better answer.
More surprised by the return, if Naylor has a good season, he'll get QO. So most likely the DBacks recoup their compB pick with a pick after the first round. SladeC seems low for a starting depth/swing arm for a decent power bat for a year. SladeC only has 1 option left and if he doesn't perform well, could be dfa'd at the end of the year. He hasn't performed very well in double A, triple A, or the majors.
My only take away, Guardians and D-backs are run way, way better than the Pirates, but then again that’s not news! Ortiz by himself should have been enough to get Naylor, but we want a cheap controllable unproven player instead.
The CBT tax penalties are out. A record 9 teams went over the threshold and owe $309M to MLB by 1/21/25. It's a happy day for Bob. 50% of that goes to revenue sharing.
When the Pirates knew they were contenders , they upped their spending I think from 2013 to 2017. If the Pirates followed the same model this year, I think Christian Walker is the type of player the Pirates would be going after (3 years at 20 million a year).
That tells me one of 3 things. 1) They don't think we are at that level yet, b) They don't like Walker as much as I do, or 3) We are not going to follow that model again.
They spent $35m more last year than in 2012 while selling half a million less tickets.
I don’t think they lost money last year but they were absolutely fucking printing it coming out of the last rebuild.
I doubt the lack of big payroll bump is about anything other than projected revenue. They’re never gonna budget aggressively and that means fans have to show up before they do anything to give them a reason to.
I’m skeptical of that. They really struggled bringing in any free agents of note during that time. The first Liriano signing, he was coming off a 5.34 ERA (but with a 4.14 xFIP, I believe this was before a lot of teams were widely using defense independent pitching stats). Today, Liriano would probably a Frankie Montas type deal and be out of our price range.
They also got a deal on Russell Martin, possibly because teams were not valuing the pitch framing yet. Amazing to look at his 2012 season, where he was 4 fWAR for the Yankees, and to think he signed with us for 2/$17 MM. If he was a free agent today, under similar circumstances, he’d get a multi-year 9 figure deal. Those are pretty much the top two guys they signed last time, and both were pretty budget friendly, even for that period. Hard to think we sign either in today’s game, as they wouldn’t be as undervalued.
It sure looks like 3. They ramped up MLB payroll to about $100,000,000 if I recall correctly in 2017 from Ethan's pieces over the years on their spending. According to Fangraph's roster resource and Sportrac, they are at about $75 million now. If there were to ramp up to $100, they would have $25 million to spend, and they would have signed someone by now. Many of the players at their positions of need in this price-range (10-15 million) are going or gone.
I think NMR hit the nail on the head yesterday when he said that after signing Cutch for $5-6 million, Cherington has about $10 million left, which he will use mostly on the bullpen. That puts their payroll at about $90 million, which is very sad. This is their competitive window, and every team in baseball, except the Pirates, As, Rays, and Marlins, understand that you have to ramp up payroll, maybe even to the point of taking losses once in while, in order to maintain your brand by being competitive. The Pirates don't seem to even want to match their payroll from 8 years ago.
Of course, I also think that Cherington has blown through a ton of money on front-office staff and hangers-on like the ballerina buy that could have gone to payroll. So, they may be at the Huntington equivalent of $100, but only have $90, because they have 50 guys making $160K per year who don't contribute much to winning. How many people have lockers in the clubhouse?
Will they keep David Bednar? He's projected to make $6.6M (MLBTraderumors) and while that's still under market, it's also high for the Pirates. Especially a player that underperformed like he did last year. So is it coming? Will the yinzer get traded this year?
2nd speaking of yinzers. Cutch, not born and raised, but a fan favorite and taking a significant pay cut to stay in Pittsburgh (sounds like a yinzer thing to do). Is there any doubt he resigns, and why not just sign him to a multi-year deal with AAV of $5M? If his knees finally wear out, they can use him as a coach.
Here is a good one for you to chew on. In the past, we have seen small market teams gain an edge in scouting and development by exploiting new technologies and innovating before large-market teams. In this age of where data from numerous radar machines is available at nearly every level, down to scouting combines in Latin America, and the same biometrics are available to almost every team, how do small market teams gain an edge on the larger-market teams? Can a team still be markedly better at scouting? Or is the only advantage left one of development? And if an advantage can be gained in development of players, how so?
Dodgers paid over 100 million in luxury taxes. That brings their total salary commitment to about 450 million. It's likely two NY teams will join them shortly. Even if Nutting wanted to, there is no way the Pirates can compete with that. This doesn't seem sustainable long term. What do you propose?
What are the chances that the Pirates extend Skenes in the near future? If they did extend him, would it make it easier to sign more good players or is that just a myth?
I 100% know you want them to answer, but I can't help myself. IMO (several or many disagree) I just don't seen why outside of him getting hurt in 2 or 3 years or his performance dropping why he would even possibly entertain it. The reasons offered are huge amounts (40-50M) he may get guaranteed in the first 2 years of free agency that Pirates would be guaranteeing. I guess I think he is looking at the $300M plus(potentially WAY more by then) with opt outs etc that he would get offered in year one of free agency. At his performance level there will be a bidding war between Yankees/Mets/Dodgers etc. Why would he put off that bidding war for even one year? Plus, he also already has a lot of money in his pocket and will be that rare Pirate that gets outside of baseball money.
I have to agree here. The Pirates can't afford him, unless his metrics drop off a cliff.
They will trade him, best case scenario at the trade deadline, in his walk year , for a bunch some top rated prospects in an overpay. Knowing the Pirates they send him and something to a contender when he still has 2 years control left for some garbage. It's a sad fact.
I really enjoy watching Cutch hit. He comes at a low price and has embraced this city. Some have said the Bucs need to move on from Cutch, but Nutting has said, in the one thing he has said that rings true to me, that Cutch has a home here and should have as long as it is practical.
.
Is it practical?
.
Dropping Cutch again would be ugly and sad.
.
He's a baseball player. Why not stick him at first? Was good enough for another hero: Pops!
_________________________
"All right rabbit, where's Rocky? Where ya hidin' 'im?"
How much of the angst amongst fans on the Pirates budget is Nutting not spending and how much is just the Pittsburgh market and fans trying to compare baseball to the financial structures of the other major sports(more specifically Steelers and Pens)? I'm not looking for any of you to defend Nutting(he shouldn't be) but 1-1 I have fun discussions with friends on this topic.
Jeez, I get tired of all these stories about podcasters proposing trades.
I don't know when Sports Illustrated became lame enough to print a story about what a podcaster says, but it did.... I guess old fashioned magazines have to try and get clicks somehow.
SI got rid of my favorite writer for the Pacers and replaced him for something more click baity writing about a trade that would be impossible because the Pacers don’t have their first round pick lol. Shame what they have done there
I don’t necessarily mind the annoying trade offers because I usually don’t read them. What annoys me is when the rest of the media picks up on a proposal as actual news and then some rando bloggers trade proposal drives a news cycle.
Bucsfan2023... this is precisely what drives me crazy.
I was a professional journalist for ten years and the quality of sourcing information is important. Granted, the SI headline ends with "Proposed Trade." But it is misleading. It is not "ATTRIBUTED." It does not tell you WHO (one of those pesky 5 Ws) proposed it. It invites you to read only to find you've got poop on your shoe. I clicked on it and I wanted to stab myself five seconds later.
I listen to a podcast called "My Old Man Said" (it's about proper futbol in England) and they have a segment called "Media Muppets" where they bash the latest ridiculous story in the craven, click-bait driven, U.K. media markets. It's funny and sad all at the same time.
Here, SI is giving some rando blogger credibility. Only when you open the door to the story, do you find out what shiite it is. But then, as you say, SI runs it and then some other legitimate outlet tries it on... Then this B.S. story is halfway around the world before the truth gets out of bed. Same thing happens in our 24/7 news cycle too; which for me, a former journalist, is a crying shame, but that's not appropriate for this site.
Just last week I clicked over from a link i saw somewhere just such a crazy story from some idiot blogger from Boston who was lusting after Jared Jones and what if we ship some garbage to The Burgh and wouldn't Jones look great in Fenway.
It wasn't a thing.
It didn't exist.
Media literacy, and critical thinking are in dire straits since covid ate half of everyone's brains, I think.... (this is "hyperbole".... maybe). Real journalistic ethics have been crowded out by the rank and fetid shitstream that has become our media diets. I get tired of real journalists getting called names by people who benefit by discrediting them.
Getting far afield here.
I will come back to earth by saying only this: (Credit, Tim Williams, more or less)... Other teams have steak. Cherrington is cooking us beans (and cabbage) and telling us it's delicious. We get beans. But it's really hard to talk all winter about beans.
Love you guys. Love this forum. And, darnitall, I love my Pirates.
He was paid $12 mil by the Brew last year and has an $18 mil Player Option for 2025 and then a Mutual Option with them for 2026. He has been a HR hitter in Philly and Milwaukee - those are bandbox fields compared to PNC. Who comes out of the lineup so he can play? Nope, not somebody I would want.
Agree. For now I want to assume 1B and DH are covered knowing there may be some level of platooning (1B) or just rest (DH). Let's spend that $10M elsewhere because in this trade proposal it is assuming that is available to be spent.
Agree. Maybe hoskins years ago in his prime. But highly doubt that would have been an option then. I'm assuming no 1b is on the menu after the vitz trade.
Unbelievable factoid on Paul Skenes 689 pitches at 98 or higher and more than 17 MLB teams combined - great bar fact!
The Pirates were not looking for RH hitting help, but the Astro's truly capitalized on missing out on Arenado when he nixed the deal/negotiations they had with the Cardinals. They get a massive upgrade defensively in Christian Walker over Jon Singleton from 2024, and a RH Power Hitter who is going to a field with even better dimensions in L and LC as Chase Field in Arizona. In L in Houston it is 315' opposed to 330' in Arizona, and in LC in Houston it is 366' opposed to 376' in Arizona. He had 26 HR in 2024, 14+ coming to L/LC, so I think he will become a regular visitor to the Crawford Boxes in LF in Houston.
Josh Naylor to Arizona, kinda surprised by the trade.
Guardians just signed Carlos Santana for $12 million.
I'm guessing the Pirates preferred Horwitz over Josh Naylor, when you figure in the cost and years of control.
It’s a gamble with the excuse that is the best option a small market has. Let’s hope the gamble for once pays off, but I’ll be floored if a 27 year old with half season under his belt is a better answer.
More surprised by the return, if Naylor has a good season, he'll get QO. So most likely the DBacks recoup their compB pick with a pick after the first round. SladeC seems low for a starting depth/swing arm for a decent power bat for a year. SladeC only has 1 option left and if he doesn't perform well, could be dfa'd at the end of the year. He hasn't performed very well in double A, triple A, or the majors.
My only take away, Guardians and D-backs are run way, way better than the Pirates, but then again that’s not news! Ortiz by himself should have been enough to get Naylor, but we want a cheap controllable unproven player instead.
Ricky Henderson passed away today. One of the true legends of the game and greatest players of all time. Sad day for baseball.
The CBT tax penalties are out. A record 9 teams went over the threshold and owe $309M to MLB by 1/21/25. It's a happy day for Bob. 50% of that goes to revenue sharing.
Pirates were 5th lowest in CBT payroll.
Just hoping that MLB will soon hold Nutting accountable for not funneling more of what he receives to the players.
Yeah no doubt they want small market owners who will cheerily cash the revenue sharing check and keep their mouth shut about the state of the game.
When the Pirates knew they were contenders , they upped their spending I think from 2013 to 2017. If the Pirates followed the same model this year, I think Christian Walker is the type of player the Pirates would be going after (3 years at 20 million a year).
That tells me one of 3 things. 1) They don't think we are at that level yet, b) They don't like Walker as much as I do, or 3) We are not going to follow that model again.
They spent $35m more last year than in 2012 while selling half a million less tickets.
I don’t think they lost money last year but they were absolutely fucking printing it coming out of the last rebuild.
I doubt the lack of big payroll bump is about anything other than projected revenue. They’re never gonna budget aggressively and that means fans have to show up before they do anything to give them a reason to.
I’m skeptical of that. They really struggled bringing in any free agents of note during that time. The first Liriano signing, he was coming off a 5.34 ERA (but with a 4.14 xFIP, I believe this was before a lot of teams were widely using defense independent pitching stats). Today, Liriano would probably a Frankie Montas type deal and be out of our price range.
They also got a deal on Russell Martin, possibly because teams were not valuing the pitch framing yet. Amazing to look at his 2012 season, where he was 4 fWAR for the Yankees, and to think he signed with us for 2/$17 MM. If he was a free agent today, under similar circumstances, he’d get a multi-year 9 figure deal. Those are pretty much the top two guys they signed last time, and both were pretty budget friendly, even for that period. Hard to think we sign either in today’s game, as they wouldn’t be as undervalued.
It sure looks like 3. They ramped up MLB payroll to about $100,000,000 if I recall correctly in 2017 from Ethan's pieces over the years on their spending. According to Fangraph's roster resource and Sportrac, they are at about $75 million now. If there were to ramp up to $100, they would have $25 million to spend, and they would have signed someone by now. Many of the players at their positions of need in this price-range (10-15 million) are going or gone.
I think NMR hit the nail on the head yesterday when he said that after signing Cutch for $5-6 million, Cherington has about $10 million left, which he will use mostly on the bullpen. That puts their payroll at about $90 million, which is very sad. This is their competitive window, and every team in baseball, except the Pirates, As, Rays, and Marlins, understand that you have to ramp up payroll, maybe even to the point of taking losses once in while, in order to maintain your brand by being competitive. The Pirates don't seem to even want to match their payroll from 8 years ago.
Of course, I also think that Cherington has blown through a ton of money on front-office staff and hangers-on like the ballerina buy that could have gone to payroll. So, they may be at the Huntington equivalent of $100, but only have $90, because they have 50 guys making $160K per year who don't contribute much to winning. How many people have lockers in the clubhouse?
Brent Strom did not come cheap, that is for sure, although that is money well-spent IMO.
Still need a couple more questions for the next podcast episode. Let me know what you got
Will they keep David Bednar? He's projected to make $6.6M (MLBTraderumors) and while that's still under market, it's also high for the Pirates. Especially a player that underperformed like he did last year. So is it coming? Will the yinzer get traded this year?
2nd speaking of yinzers. Cutch, not born and raised, but a fan favorite and taking a significant pay cut to stay in Pittsburgh (sounds like a yinzer thing to do). Is there any doubt he resigns, and why not just sign him to a multi-year deal with AAV of $5M? If his knees finally wear out, they can use him as a coach.
Here is a good one for you to chew on. In the past, we have seen small market teams gain an edge in scouting and development by exploiting new technologies and innovating before large-market teams. In this age of where data from numerous radar machines is available at nearly every level, down to scouting combines in Latin America, and the same biometrics are available to almost every team, how do small market teams gain an edge on the larger-market teams? Can a team still be markedly better at scouting? Or is the only advantage left one of development? And if an advantage can be gained in development of players, how so?
-which Pirates catcher are you most bullish on long term?
-offer a worst case , best case and most likely outcome for Spencer Horwitz’s performance with the Pirates.
-Do you prefer DiBella’s or Jersey Mikes?
Dodgers paid over 100 million in luxury taxes. That brings their total salary commitment to about 450 million. It's likely two NY teams will join them shortly. Even if Nutting wanted to, there is no way the Pirates can compete with that. This doesn't seem sustainable long term. What do you propose?
What are the chances that the Pirates extend Skenes in the near future? If they did extend him, would it make it easier to sign more good players or is that just a myth?
I 100% know you want them to answer, but I can't help myself. IMO (several or many disagree) I just don't seen why outside of him getting hurt in 2 or 3 years or his performance dropping why he would even possibly entertain it. The reasons offered are huge amounts (40-50M) he may get guaranteed in the first 2 years of free agency that Pirates would be guaranteeing. I guess I think he is looking at the $300M plus(potentially WAY more by then) with opt outs etc that he would get offered in year one of free agency. At his performance level there will be a bidding war between Yankees/Mets/Dodgers etc. Why would he put off that bidding war for even one year? Plus, he also already has a lot of money in his pocket and will be that rare Pirate that gets outside of baseball money.
I have to agree here. The Pirates can't afford him, unless his metrics drop off a cliff.
They will trade him, best case scenario at the trade deadline, in his walk year , for a bunch some top rated prospects in an overpay. Knowing the Pirates they send him and something to a contender when he still has 2 years control left for some garbage. It's a sad fact.
Comment with two questions.
.
I really enjoy watching Cutch hit. He comes at a low price and has embraced this city. Some have said the Bucs need to move on from Cutch, but Nutting has said, in the one thing he has said that rings true to me, that Cutch has a home here and should have as long as it is practical.
.
Is it practical?
.
Dropping Cutch again would be ugly and sad.
.
He's a baseball player. Why not stick him at first? Was good enough for another hero: Pops!
_________________________
"All right rabbit, where's Rocky? Where ya hidin' 'im?"
-Wabbit
How much of the angst amongst fans on the Pirates budget is Nutting not spending and how much is just the Pittsburgh market and fans trying to compare baseball to the financial structures of the other major sports(more specifically Steelers and Pens)? I'm not looking for any of you to defend Nutting(he shouldn't be) but 1-1 I have fun discussions with friends on this topic.
If you could get stuck on the new pittsburgh ferris wheel with two pirates related folks, who would it be and why?
Propose your dream (realistic-ish) trade/signing to make us a playoff team this year
https://www.si.com/mlb/pirates/news/pittsburgh-pirates-add-milwaukee-brewers-rhys-hoskins-proposed-trade
Anyone go for this?
Jeez, I get tired of all these stories about podcasters proposing trades.
I don't know when Sports Illustrated became lame enough to print a story about what a podcaster says, but it did.... I guess old fashioned magazines have to try and get clicks somehow.
It is irritating because they NEVER happen.
________________________________________
"Carn-sarned-rassa-frassin varmints."
-Wabbit
SI got rid of my favorite writer for the Pacers and replaced him for something more click baity writing about a trade that would be impossible because the Pacers don’t have their first round pick lol. Shame what they have done there
I don’t necessarily mind the annoying trade offers because I usually don’t read them. What annoys me is when the rest of the media picks up on a proposal as actual news and then some rando bloggers trade proposal drives a news cycle.
Bucsfan2023... this is precisely what drives me crazy.
I was a professional journalist for ten years and the quality of sourcing information is important. Granted, the SI headline ends with "Proposed Trade." But it is misleading. It is not "ATTRIBUTED." It does not tell you WHO (one of those pesky 5 Ws) proposed it. It invites you to read only to find you've got poop on your shoe. I clicked on it and I wanted to stab myself five seconds later.
I listen to a podcast called "My Old Man Said" (it's about proper futbol in England) and they have a segment called "Media Muppets" where they bash the latest ridiculous story in the craven, click-bait driven, U.K. media markets. It's funny and sad all at the same time.
Here, SI is giving some rando blogger credibility. Only when you open the door to the story, do you find out what shiite it is. But then, as you say, SI runs it and then some other legitimate outlet tries it on... Then this B.S. story is halfway around the world before the truth gets out of bed. Same thing happens in our 24/7 news cycle too; which for me, a former journalist, is a crying shame, but that's not appropriate for this site.
Just last week I clicked over from a link i saw somewhere just such a crazy story from some idiot blogger from Boston who was lusting after Jared Jones and what if we ship some garbage to The Burgh and wouldn't Jones look great in Fenway.
It wasn't a thing.
It didn't exist.
Media literacy, and critical thinking are in dire straits since covid ate half of everyone's brains, I think.... (this is "hyperbole".... maybe). Real journalistic ethics have been crowded out by the rank and fetid shitstream that has become our media diets. I get tired of real journalists getting called names by people who benefit by discrediting them.
Getting far afield here.
I will come back to earth by saying only this: (Credit, Tim Williams, more or less)... Other teams have steak. Cherrington is cooking us beans (and cabbage) and telling us it's delicious. We get beans. But it's really hard to talk all winter about beans.
Love you guys. Love this forum. And, darnitall, I love my Pirates.
_____________________________
"What Baby wants, Baby gets!"
-Wabbit
Which brings to mind a very favorite Neil Young song:
Got mashed potato.
Got mashed potato.
Got mashed potato.
Got mashed potato.
Got mashed potato.
Got mashed potato.
Ain't got no T-Bone.
Agree. If I was tech savvy I'd propose all types of ludicrous stuff. What you got in that bag style?
He was paid $12 mil by the Brew last year and has an $18 mil Player Option for 2025 and then a Mutual Option with them for 2026. He has been a HR hitter in Philly and Milwaukee - those are bandbox fields compared to PNC. Who comes out of the lineup so he can play? Nope, not somebody I would want.
Yeah let the brew overpay for him the next few years.
I don’t see us paying $10 million for Hoskins, and certainly not giving up a decent prospect for the right to do so.
Agree. For now I want to assume 1B and DH are covered knowing there may be some level of platooning (1B) or just rest (DH). Let's spend that $10M elsewhere because in this trade proposal it is assuming that is available to be spent.
Agree. Maybe hoskins years ago in his prime. But highly doubt that would have been an option then. I'm assuming no 1b is on the menu after the vitz trade.
Unbelievable factoid on Paul Skenes 689 pitches at 98 or higher and more than 17 MLB teams combined - great bar fact!
The Pirates were not looking for RH hitting help, but the Astro's truly capitalized on missing out on Arenado when he nixed the deal/negotiations they had with the Cardinals. They get a massive upgrade defensively in Christian Walker over Jon Singleton from 2024, and a RH Power Hitter who is going to a field with even better dimensions in L and LC as Chase Field in Arizona. In L in Houston it is 315' opposed to 330' in Arizona, and in LC in Houston it is 366' opposed to 376' in Arizona. He had 26 HR in 2024, 14+ coming to L/LC, so I think he will become a regular visitor to the Crawford Boxes in LF in Houston.
Hope his arm remains attached to his body. That's a lot of heat. Go eat some fish my man.