Worth remembering Shelton held a team meeting first day(s) of ST announcing to all that a winning season is the goal/expectations, that playoffs were the target. That this season was going to be different than the past 4. The media covered his remarks too. And so by Aug. 11 we were done, out of the WC race at 8 games under .500. There are consequences for failing to achieve even low bar goals, why should the Pirates be exempt from
consequences. Both BC and DS and a couple coaches need let go. The product on the field since the deadline has fell far short. But we have an owner that isn't pro-active, is a procrastinator, doesn't want the hassle on his plate to make changes because these two are exceptionally good corporate yes men.
The difference between last year and this year is striking. Last year, BC ditched all the veteran hangers-on at the deadline and the team suddenly started playing much better. The young guys didn't even perform all that well, but the team played better baseball and were a game over .500 the last two months after being 11 under before that. And that was even with the rotation falling apart.
This year, BC ignored the excitement Skenes created and spent four months refusing to try to fix the glaring offensive problems. Then he made a pathetic effort at the deadline. (And no, BDLC wasn't just a little below average like some keep insisting, he was a terrible player even before the trade.) And even with the team collapsing, he waited and waited to bring anybody up, instead clinging to all his failures. It's staggering that MAT, BDLC and Connor Joe are still getting regular starts at this point.
The difference is, a year ago it looked like the team was setting a course to try to move things forward. This year, BC and Shelton have made clear on a daily basis that they have no intention whatsoever of trying to change anything at all. Last year the players obviously were enthused, this year they've obviously quit, because they know the people running the team don't care.
Last year vaguely reminded me of 1987 when Syd Thrift told the players after the trade deadline that this was the group they were moving forward with or something to
that extent. Players seemed to buy in, new leaders emerged, and they finished 35-25 to end up 80-82. You knew things were changing and the following year they went 85-75 largely trusting those young players. But that's Thrift vs. Cherington and Leyland vs. Shelton; clearly day and night.
To be fair, they had a big step backwards in '89 before the success they of '90-'92. I guess the Cherington/Shelton supporters can point to that as reason to not give up on '25.
Good points. I liked what you said about the lack of identity though, and I feel like that’s been a problem for the better part of his tenure here. That’s a problem inherent in the way the roster is constructed as well. They have far too many odds and ends pieces to create a cohesive roster, and they seem far too risk averse to alter the roster dynamic. Going defense first probably means radically overhauling the outfield. Going offense first probably means making a super risky win now trade/s. That’s probably the biggest argument against hope next year.
The only explanation I can come up with is that Cherington (and Shelton) are trying to get as close to last year’s record in an effort to hold onto their jobs.
If true, believing that trading for BDLC and playing him and the likes of Joe, Billy McKinney and MAT for the last month plus would accomplish this is an even bigger example of their incompetence.
Man, sometimes I watch this team and give deference to or reserve judgment on certain moves they make because, hey, they’re the pros and have a lot more data and intel. Then I see their signing of Tellez and trade for BDLC, along with shipping out Peralta for Beeks, and want to give up all hope.
The BDLC move was especially bad. There are 31 RFs in MLB with 400+ PAs. Even if you don't count the post-trade disaster, he'd still rank 27th in wRC+. With it, of course, he's easily last. And Statcast has him in the bottom sixth defensively. He was a terrible player before the trade, not a slightly below average player who hit a slump.
It’s especially puzzling when you take into account that Reynolds isn’t great defensively either. I get RF at PNC Park isn’t the most challenging position, but still, it’s tough on your pitching to bookend your CF with such bad defensive players. And one that can’t seem to hit to boot.
Yep. There is just no rational explanation on why you would trade for the guy. Defense still means something, especially if you hit like BDLC.
And, if your big offensive additions at the last minute, no less while still trailing in the wild card, are IKF and BDLC then why give up Peralta for bullpen depth. I think Borucki is equal to, if not better than Beeks and he was had for nothing.
I get the reality of the financial constraints, but expecting more than 1 war from Tellez even on the cheap, targeting BDLC and giving PA’s to the likes of MAT and others is inexcusable.
I wrote something similar the other day but we lack an identity--too many holes in the defense to be a run-prevention team and too many holes in the lineup to be a run-producing team. Go one way or the other but as it is we don't get the consistent ABs to have enough crooked innings so we often lose due to a defensive blunder here or there.
Well, if you are looking for some good news, the Cards were eliminated Friday and the Cubs were eliminated yesterday. As for good news with the Bucs, I got nothing.
Hey all, been busy with life stuff so havent been on as much, hope yinz are all hanging in through the drudgery that has been Pirates baseball to windup the season
Last year ended with so much hope for this season. This season is dying a long painful death. Probably the kind with leadership changes. Problem as I see it is either BC is picking a new Manager, or BN is picking a new GM. Neither gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Smart move is to remove Derek Shelton NOW! One of the best young managerial candidates while he was a base coach with the Astro's was Don Kelly, our present Bench Coach. He is still young (44), more than qualified, knows all of the players, and played MLB for possibly 9 or 10 years after attending Mt Lebo HS and Point Park College. During his MLB playing days he played 6 years for Detroit during the Jim Leyland Years of great success, and that has to count for a lot. Install Kelly as the Manager immediately.
I don't mean this to sound as confrontational as it may, but I am not sure how else to say this. How is Don Kelly so excused from all this mess everybody is complaining about? Hitting coach - fire, manager - fire, GM - fire, bench coach - HIRE as new manager?? BTW - he may be a very good coach hence my first sentence, heck Shelton managing the Dodgers would probably have a real good record. But Kelly DOES have responsibility and input to decisions that are being made and if he doesn't then he is not a good bench coach. When there were mental mistakes isn't it the bench coach usually that addresses those during the game (and in theory fixes them) as the manager must make the next game time decision? A bit of a rant as we as a group are in end of year venting as Bucs have brutally stumbled to the end.
I’m generally not a fan of hiring from within organization that’s struggling. But sometimes it does work. I don’t think the Royals are regretting promoting Piccolo right now, for example. I think a problem with installing Kelly, however, is that the issues run above the managers office.
At the very least, Nutting needs to make it clear to Cherington that he's out of a job after next season if they don't make the playoffs. Then we'll see how committed he is to Shelton and the other coaches. I suspect it wouldn't change anything, but he's certainly not going to fire his buddy Shelton if he doesn't feel his own job is on the line.
If Nutting chooses a new GM, there's no question the new GM would bring in his own manager. You're right that those changes won't lead to warm fuzzy feelings, but would give us a lot to talk about ;) Otherwise we'll be left to propose major trades or FA signings, which we should know won't happen.
I don't expect them to fire Cherington though I think they should. Repeating the same mistake that led them to Cherington in the first place, a "safe" hire, would be a typical Pirates' move though.
Same. I’d like a clean sweep of President, GM, Manager to go. For starters, you need a baseball guy at President, not a bean counter. Take a look at other successful organizations and that’s the set up they have.
The issue is, Nutting apparently took forever to decide to can NH in 2019. Wasn’t it basically a month after Hurdle was fired that NH and Connelly got the sack? If he decides to fire the FO, I see little point in dawdling. But then again, other than a managerial change, I don’t expect everyone else to stay put.
Right. This organization has no direction or leadership and that starts at the top and goes down. Bob doesn't care about winning, the next guy isn't a baseball guy, BC is just a low risk clone of Huntington who isn'tgoing to rock the boat, Shelton is a puppet for BC etc.... Shelton will be the fall guy but honestly you can only do so much with a crappy roster and that falls on BC and the owner.....sadly I don't see next year being any different. There won't be any money to spend so they won't be able to get any hitters and they will convince themselves that the bullpen is fine with the young arms.
KF is a mixed bag. They gave us Cherington and the Giants Zaidi, both of which look to be poor moves. But they also gave the Twins Falvey and the Brewers Sterns.
The larger problem is, if you’re Nutting how do you run a credible hiring process without outside help? As a newspaper guy I can’t imagine he’s knowledgeable on the sorts of things you’d need to know to truly evaluate prospective job candidates in an industry as complicated as Major League Baseball?
This is a bigger deal than I think most realize - that Travis Williams has no baseball experience. Say they can Cherington and Shelton. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a POBO with actual baseball ties and knowledge to head the GM search? Sure, they can hire a consulting firm, but there’s no way that firm has an understanding of the current systems strengths and weaknesses which should be important when evaluating the plans put forward by each GM candidate as to how they intend to right the ship. A POBO should know full well all about the current state of the farm system, scouting and development programs to better identify which candidate best matches the current state of the team.
Williams can’t do this. Neither can Nutting. The next hire will just as likely be someone like Cherington who will say they need a season to evaluate the system, imply they will trade the expensive players and bring in better prospects (rebuild), which will mean payroll can be slashed as they develop and wait on those same prospects. (Also, I seem to recall Cherington did say he wanted time to evaluate the team before making any real moves/decisions. If my recall is correct, that seems insane. You are interviewing for a GM job and haven’t already done that homework??)
Unfortunately, the fact that no one above or below Williams has any baseball IQ - when his position should demand it - reflects what Nutting is truly concerned with.
That's a good point, and where Williams really hurts us. We have no baseball expertise above Cherington. I'm pretty down on Cherington, but maybe he's connected enough that if you promote him to president with the task of hiring a new GM to run the day-to- day operations, he'd make a good choice. Sarah Gelles seemed like a good hire, anyway.
I’m speculating they’d go this route again because even though Williams has more time in the job now, he still really isn’t a baseball guy. And clearly Nutting didn’t feel comfortable making the hire himself last time, so I assume he’d feel similarly this time.
It's been a long, disappointing year. I thought there would be some improvement, but as a team they seem to have regressed a bit. This last week it has been nearly impossible to watch as they have turned in a can't pitch, can't hit effort over and over.
Well stated. They had made some advancements in 2023 finishing 10 under .500 and the record for the lowest Wild Card team was +6 over .500 - so, 16 games back. This year they are now 11 games under .500 and the record for the lowest Wild Card team is +17 over .500 - so, 28 games back. A big difference.
I think the reason for extending Derek Shelton for an extra year after his 4 year contract expired, was due to the perception we were going in the right direction. Probably a nice guy, but this franchise needs better and they need it now. We have one of the best young candidates to be an MLB Manager sitting patiently as our Bench Coach for the past 5 years. He grew up and played locally (Mt Lebo, Point Park) and played MLB professionally for the Pirates and the Marlins, but his best contributions came during a 6 year window from 2009 thru 2014 playing for the Detroit Tigers during Jim Leyland's time as the Manager of the Tigers.
Worth remembering Shelton held a team meeting first day(s) of ST announcing to all that a winning season is the goal/expectations, that playoffs were the target. That this season was going to be different than the past 4. The media covered his remarks too. And so by Aug. 11 we were done, out of the WC race at 8 games under .500. There are consequences for failing to achieve even low bar goals, why should the Pirates be exempt from
consequences. Both BC and DS and a couple coaches need let go. The product on the field since the deadline has fell far short. But we have an owner that isn't pro-active, is a procrastinator, doesn't want the hassle on his plate to make changes because these two are exceptionally good corporate yes men.
And the Reds fired their Manager after Sunday's game.
Still three games back of 4th place in Tankathon even. We're bad but not bad enough.
Maybe the Nats can go on a winning streak.
That'd be ideal but probably tough with their 3rd best player sent down for staying at the casino until 8am.
I'm not betting on it.
We'll more likely end up 6th unfortunately. Only 1 game ahead of Toronto and Texas for 5th.
Maybe we can sneak by Washington. Anything else is damn near impossible.
The difference between last year and this year is striking. Last year, BC ditched all the veteran hangers-on at the deadline and the team suddenly started playing much better. The young guys didn't even perform all that well, but the team played better baseball and were a game over .500 the last two months after being 11 under before that. And that was even with the rotation falling apart.
This year, BC ignored the excitement Skenes created and spent four months refusing to try to fix the glaring offensive problems. Then he made a pathetic effort at the deadline. (And no, BDLC wasn't just a little below average like some keep insisting, he was a terrible player even before the trade.) And even with the team collapsing, he waited and waited to bring anybody up, instead clinging to all his failures. It's staggering that MAT, BDLC and Connor Joe are still getting regular starts at this point.
The difference is, a year ago it looked like the team was setting a course to try to move things forward. This year, BC and Shelton have made clear on a daily basis that they have no intention whatsoever of trying to change anything at all. Last year the players obviously were enthused, this year they've obviously quit, because they know the people running the team don't care.
Quite the good summation of the situation! A poet would say.
Last year vaguely reminded me of 1987 when Syd Thrift told the players after the trade deadline that this was the group they were moving forward with or something to
that extent. Players seemed to buy in, new leaders emerged, and they finished 35-25 to end up 80-82. You knew things were changing and the following year they went 85-75 largely trusting those young players. But that's Thrift vs. Cherington and Leyland vs. Shelton; clearly day and night.
To be fair, they had a big step backwards in '89 before the success they of '90-'92. I guess the Cherington/Shelton supporters can point to that as reason to not give up on '25.
Good points. I liked what you said about the lack of identity though, and I feel like that’s been a problem for the better part of his tenure here. That’s a problem inherent in the way the roster is constructed as well. They have far too many odds and ends pieces to create a cohesive roster, and they seem far too risk averse to alter the roster dynamic. Going defense first probably means radically overhauling the outfield. Going offense first probably means making a super risky win now trade/s. That’s probably the biggest argument against hope next year.
The only explanation I can come up with is that Cherington (and Shelton) are trying to get as close to last year’s record in an effort to hold onto their jobs.
If true, believing that trading for BDLC and playing him and the likes of Joe, Billy McKinney and MAT for the last month plus would accomplish this is an even bigger example of their incompetence.
Man, sometimes I watch this team and give deference to or reserve judgment on certain moves they make because, hey, they’re the pros and have a lot more data and intel. Then I see their signing of Tellez and trade for BDLC, along with shipping out Peralta for Beeks, and want to give up all hope.
The BDLC move was especially bad. There are 31 RFs in MLB with 400+ PAs. Even if you don't count the post-trade disaster, he'd still rank 27th in wRC+. With it, of course, he's easily last. And Statcast has him in the bottom sixth defensively. He was a terrible player before the trade, not a slightly below average player who hit a slump.
It’s especially puzzling when you take into account that Reynolds isn’t great defensively either. I get RF at PNC Park isn’t the most challenging position, but still, it’s tough on your pitching to bookend your CF with such bad defensive players. And one that can’t seem to hit to boot.
I think Reynolds is actually ok on defense in the OF but really struggles with the Notch in particular.
Yep. There is just no rational explanation on why you would trade for the guy. Defense still means something, especially if you hit like BDLC.
And, if your big offensive additions at the last minute, no less while still trailing in the wild card, are IKF and BDLC then why give up Peralta for bullpen depth. I think Borucki is equal to, if not better than Beeks and he was had for nothing.
I get the reality of the financial constraints, but expecting more than 1 war from Tellez even on the cheap, targeting BDLC and giving PA’s to the likes of MAT and others is inexcusable.
I wrote something similar the other day but we lack an identity--too many holes in the defense to be a run-prevention team and too many holes in the lineup to be a run-producing team. Go one way or the other but as it is we don't get the consistent ABs to have enough crooked innings so we often lose due to a defensive blunder here or there.
Well, if you are looking for some good news, the Cards were eliminated Friday and the Cubs were eliminated yesterday. As for good news with the Bucs, I got nothing.
Sources saying the pirates are sending Harrington to the Nationals for CJ Abrhams
Only if we close down the rivers and the meadows so he cant go on any casino benders
As good of a buy low opportunity as was the case with Bart
Hey all, been busy with life stuff so havent been on as much, hope yinz are all hanging in through the drudgery that has been Pirates baseball to windup the season
Last year ended with so much hope for this season. This season is dying a long painful death. Probably the kind with leadership changes. Problem as I see it is either BC is picking a new Manager, or BN is picking a new GM. Neither gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Only Nutting jumping into the Allegheny would give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Wow
Smart move is to remove Derek Shelton NOW! One of the best young managerial candidates while he was a base coach with the Astro's was Don Kelly, our present Bench Coach. He is still young (44), more than qualified, knows all of the players, and played MLB for possibly 9 or 10 years after attending Mt Lebo HS and Point Park College. During his MLB playing days he played 6 years for Detroit during the Jim Leyland Years of great success, and that has to count for a lot. Install Kelly as the Manager immediately.
I don't mean this to sound as confrontational as it may, but I am not sure how else to say this. How is Don Kelly so excused from all this mess everybody is complaining about? Hitting coach - fire, manager - fire, GM - fire, bench coach - HIRE as new manager?? BTW - he may be a very good coach hence my first sentence, heck Shelton managing the Dodgers would probably have a real good record. But Kelly DOES have responsibility and input to decisions that are being made and if he doesn't then he is not a good bench coach. When there were mental mistakes isn't it the bench coach usually that addresses those during the game (and in theory fixes them) as the manager must make the next game time decision? A bit of a rant as we as a group are in end of year venting as Bucs have brutally stumbled to the end.
The explanation is easy. Tennessee Mel loves every Yinzer ball player who ever yinzed. That’s why he wants Don Kelly.
I don’t see any evidence that Kelly would improve the situation. And his local ties are irrelevant.
I’m generally not a fan of hiring from within organization that’s struggling. But sometimes it does work. I don’t think the Royals are regretting promoting Piccolo right now, for example. I think a problem with installing Kelly, however, is that the issues run above the managers office.
At the very least, Nutting needs to make it clear to Cherington that he's out of a job after next season if they don't make the playoffs. Then we'll see how committed he is to Shelton and the other coaches. I suspect it wouldn't change anything, but he's certainly not going to fire his buddy Shelton if he doesn't feel his own job is on the line.
If Nutting chooses a new GM, there's no question the new GM would bring in his own manager. You're right that those changes won't lead to warm fuzzy feelings, but would give us a lot to talk about ;) Otherwise we'll be left to propose major trades or FA signings, which we should know won't happen.
In the unlikely event they fire Cherington, I assume he would go with Korn Ferry to conduct a search for candidates like he did to hire to Cherington?
I don't expect them to fire Cherington though I think they should. Repeating the same mistake that led them to Cherington in the first place, a "safe" hire, would be a typical Pirates' move though.
Same. I’d like a clean sweep of President, GM, Manager to go. For starters, you need a baseball guy at President, not a bean counter. Take a look at other successful organizations and that’s the set up they have.
The issue is, Nutting apparently took forever to decide to can NH in 2019. Wasn’t it basically a month after Hurdle was fired that NH and Connelly got the sack? If he decides to fire the FO, I see little point in dawdling. But then again, other than a managerial change, I don’t expect everyone else to stay put.
Right. This organization has no direction or leadership and that starts at the top and goes down. Bob doesn't care about winning, the next guy isn't a baseball guy, BC is just a low risk clone of Huntington who isn'tgoing to rock the boat, Shelton is a puppet for BC etc.... Shelton will be the fall guy but honestly you can only do so much with a crappy roster and that falls on BC and the owner.....sadly I don't see next year being any different. There won't be any money to spend so they won't be able to get any hitters and they will convince themselves that the bullpen is fine with the young arms.
KF is a mixed bag. They gave us Cherington and the Giants Zaidi, both of which look to be poor moves. But they also gave the Twins Falvey and the Brewers Sterns.
The larger problem is, if you’re Nutting how do you run a credible hiring process without outside help? As a newspaper guy I can’t imagine he’s knowledgeable on the sorts of things you’d need to know to truly evaluate prospective job candidates in an industry as complicated as Major League Baseball?
This is a bigger deal than I think most realize - that Travis Williams has no baseball experience. Say they can Cherington and Shelton. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a POBO with actual baseball ties and knowledge to head the GM search? Sure, they can hire a consulting firm, but there’s no way that firm has an understanding of the current systems strengths and weaknesses which should be important when evaluating the plans put forward by each GM candidate as to how they intend to right the ship. A POBO should know full well all about the current state of the farm system, scouting and development programs to better identify which candidate best matches the current state of the team.
Williams can’t do this. Neither can Nutting. The next hire will just as likely be someone like Cherington who will say they need a season to evaluate the system, imply they will trade the expensive players and bring in better prospects (rebuild), which will mean payroll can be slashed as they develop and wait on those same prospects. (Also, I seem to recall Cherington did say he wanted time to evaluate the team before making any real moves/decisions. If my recall is correct, that seems insane. You are interviewing for a GM job and haven’t already done that homework??)
Unfortunately, the fact that no one above or below Williams has any baseball IQ - when his position should demand it - reflects what Nutting is truly concerned with.
TL;DR - the Bucs are probably screwed either way.
The answer is that you reach out to us, the educated fan base , with a large olive branch
That's a good point, and where Williams really hurts us. We have no baseball expertise above Cherington. I'm pretty down on Cherington, but maybe he's connected enough that if you promote him to president with the task of hiring a new GM to run the day-to- day operations, he'd make a good choice. Sarah Gelles seemed like a good hire, anyway.
I’m a Sarah Gelles fan as well.
She's so exciting that Elias' and Mejdal's literal first move running the Orioles was to ship her out.
I’m sorry, it’s early. Korn Ferry? Is that a person? A hiring firm?
The chief sponsor to the PGA Tour’s AAA league.
It’s a consulting firm.
https://www.kornferry.com/
I’m speculating they’d go this route again because even though Williams has more time in the job now, he still really isn’t a baseball guy. And clearly Nutting didn’t feel comfortable making the hire himself last time, so I assume he’d feel similarly this time.
Now I’m starting to remember, thanks.
It's been a long, disappointing year. I thought there would be some improvement, but as a team they seem to have regressed a bit. This last week it has been nearly impossible to watch as they have turned in a can't pitch, can't hit effort over and over.
Well stated. They had made some advancements in 2023 finishing 10 under .500 and the record for the lowest Wild Card team was +6 over .500 - so, 16 games back. This year they are now 11 games under .500 and the record for the lowest Wild Card team is +17 over .500 - so, 28 games back. A big difference.
I think the reason for extending Derek Shelton for an extra year after his 4 year contract expired, was due to the perception we were going in the right direction. Probably a nice guy, but this franchise needs better and they need it now. We have one of the best young candidates to be an MLB Manager sitting patiently as our Bench Coach for the past 5 years. He grew up and played locally (Mt Lebo, Point Park) and played MLB professionally for the Pirates and the Marlins, but his best contributions came during a 6 year window from 2009 thru 2014 playing for the Detroit Tigers during Jim Leyland's time as the Manager of the Tigers.
I'm not sure why they're having so much trouble hitting when they're getting such sage advice (from the PG game story):
"I think we just need to swing at better pitches,” Shelton said.