It's gonna be fun watching these guys really fulfil their potential the next few years. I'd love a few more free agents signings, but I still think this is the deepest talent pool top to bottom I've seen of this organization in my lifetime.
Like any change this team tries to institute, they didn’t stick with it. Or made it a half-ass try and tried it too late in the players development process (see: Davis, Henry).
This is another aspect of this FO similar to NH. They almost seem frightened of pissing a player off by moving them off their position and down the spectrum, even though they’re not good at the position they’re currently playing. And when they do realize “hey, this guy can’t cut it at short or catcher, let’s move him” it isn’t well thought out.
I know they won’t move Cruz now. Because it’s too late.
I don't mind changes like this, but they should have put this in place last September or at least started preparing in October. I have no problem with putting Henry Davis in right field, if they would actually got thim ready for that position first.
They can do crap like this because BC knows there won’t be any repercussions from f***-ups at the MLB level. They don’t have to prepare players for the majors because the owner doesn’t care. They can just screw around with failed development ideas, watch things tank, and then sit around and have a beer.
I don't see room for Williams as a glove first backup SS. I'm guessing he'll be up in case of injury and run Cruz out there as much as humanly possible with Peggy as Cruz' primary backup and Triolo or Bae sliding to 2nd
We'll need 2 catchers, are you missing Hank as C? This really shows how few spots are really open......it's real easy to get to 13 real fast. Probably will go north with 14 to start......
I absolutely hate the idea of glove-first backups. Due to pinch-hitting, bench guys get used disproportionately for offense. Unless you have a starter who absolutely has to come out for defense, which the Pirates don’t, glove-first bench guys serve no purpose.
Well, a guy DFAed from the Royals is not going to start for us so... Olivares will be a backup and his defense is garbage so there ONE non-glove first backup. Cutch and Tellez will end up platooning so there's at least one other non-glove first backup.
I am in this boat. Unless your corner outfielders are Schwarber and Castellanos (where I truly think CFers could sue for cruelty in the workplace), if you can 'live' with a lesser defender for 7 innings because of their bat then why take that offensive player out only to find yourself 2 innings later needing the offense because the game is tied now due to normal (non-poor defense) reasons. I see too often some lame bat defender hitting in the 9th because they came into protect a lead and they literally made ZERO plays defending that lead. I have no idea what the 'data' shows but unless you are just a rock glove (see Phillie example), keep the bat in the lineup and to your point, make better use of that roster spot.
My thought would be an infield of Hayes at 3B, Cruz at SS, Peguero at 2B, Tellez or Joe at 1B, and Triolo as the Util IF. Young, strong defensively, and with big promise offensively. Triolo played 2B, 3B, and 1B last year and I am positive if asked to play SS he'd be a damn good SS also. I would be hoping to get 750 to 800 innings at SS from Cruz, possibly 250 to 300 at SS from Peguero, and anything left over could be handled by Triolo. This could be the breakout year on both sides of the ball for Oneil Cruz and Liover Peguero. 2023 was a breakout year for Ke'Bryan Hayes who turned the corner by hitting 15 HR's coupled with a Gold Glove at 3B, and it would be fantastic to see him hit 20+ HR's in 2024.
The “as long as Oneil is healthy” is what worries me. Maybe it was a one-off freak injury, but maybe it recurs, or maybe he turns into someone who gets hurt regularly, or who’s to say that a freak accident can’t happen two years in a row.
Plus, even going into last year, there was debate about whether he could stick at short. Now he missed a whole year, and there’s not a question mark?
There’s no good SS on the market unless you buy a Tim Anderson bounceback, so I get not shopping there. But there is a big potential black hole that sucked us in last year, and this year we’re apparently thinking we’ll just skate along the event horizon.
Polanco thoroughly destroyed his body when he got hurt. Had a cannon for an arm prior to the injury and that helped mitigate his shortcomings tracking fly balls. Had no power in his arm after the injury. Still was accurate in direction but no power to get the ball anywhere quick enough to make a difference.
That's fair, but in many ways I think the potential at the bat (and it's loss) is the big deal. If we had a mediocre veteran (Newman return) last year at SS I don't think that drastically changes the season outcome. Cruz is on the short list IMO of players that are just hard to have a real back up plan. Reynolds, Keller, and Hayes I would include on that list(maybe Bednar)if I was trying put on the rose colored glasses and picture a road to success in 2024. A lot of other things would have to happen, but I think those have to be some level of given if there is any hope. If there is a Hayes/Triolo debate - > sure Triolo can play third, but if Pirates are truly contending, the second half of 2023 Hayes needs to be present for all of 2024.
Hopefully we have a good problem for once, Hayes continues to rake, Cruz's bat reaches its ceiling, (with solid D at short) Triolo's bat is for real, while Peguero and Gonzales show they are both big leaguers. Heck hopefully Tellez hits a bunch of dingers before we trade him or lose him in free agency.
I'd like to take this moment to mention something I've come to believe, and I'll quote it as NMR, "Arm strength is overrated".
Look no further than our beloved gold glove third baseman who ranked 261st on Statcast with an average of 81.4 mph. Below average in general, and below average for 3B (86.2 mph)
Only positions I think it truly matters is catcher and OF. Mainly OF, cause a catcher can also minimize the need for arm strength with quality pop and exchange.
I think Key throws it exactly as hard as it needs to go. Also, he turns the most double plays from third which is a quick but not necessarily hard throw.. so I'm sure that skews the numbers.
Hayes might have the best internal clock I've seen...almost to the point of toying with runners. I think there's more arm in him, but he doesn't need it.
I'm guessing he gets more runners out by half a step than any infielder in the sport.
But just goes to show that there's so much more to being a good defender than "he has the arm". IIRC, Trevor Story's best defensive seasons, pre-elbow issues, were also "below average" arm strength. It's great to have, in those very small specific situations, but hardly a necessity for a player to be a capable defender.
I don't think they need a good backup option on the MLB roster as long as Oneill is healthy. If Peggy goes to SS once every two weeks or somebody else that is workable. As bad as they were, if Castro was only there once every two weeks we likely would have been ok. I do like the idea of having somebody in AAA who is more of a pure SS available (hello Williams). No matter how you slice/dice the roster if Cruz is out for a long period AND the Pirates are truly contending then the solution may come from the outside in some mediocre veteran who is still better than the Pirate stop gap option. If they are not contending, then you look even harder internally.
It's gonna be fun watching these guys really fulfil their potential the next few years. I'd love a few more free agents signings, but I still think this is the deepest talent pool top to bottom I've seen of this organization in my lifetime.
Are you a 7-year old? No way this 40-man roster is better than the 2016 roster.
Cutch, Cole, Marte, Liriano, Melancon, Watson, Cervelli, Polanco, Taillon, Glasnow, etc.
How that management team could screw up with that much talent is one of the great baseball mysteries of my lifetime.
Peggy has the higher ceiling, but Gonzales is currently the better player. I think Nick surprises this year.
Missing the best SS in the org, Mr. Kebryan Hayes.
I would agree with that. I'm expecting him to really establish himself this year with the bat.
JT at 3B, Hayes at short, Cruz in center, Jack/Olivares platoon in right, Rowdy/Joe platoon at first.
Have you seen Cruz trying to track down a fly ball in the OF? It’s . . . alarming.
Like any change this team tries to institute, they didn’t stick with it. Or made it a half-ass try and tried it too late in the players development process (see: Davis, Henry).
This is another aspect of this FO similar to NH. They almost seem frightened of pissing a player off by moving them off their position and down the spectrum, even though they’re not good at the position they’re currently playing. And when they do realize “hey, this guy can’t cut it at short or catcher, let’s move him” it isn’t well thought out.
I know they won’t move Cruz now. Because it’s too late.
I don't mind changes like this, but they should have put this in place last September or at least started preparing in October. I have no problem with putting Henry Davis in right field, if they would actually got thim ready for that position first.
They can do crap like this because BC knows there won’t be any repercussions from f***-ups at the MLB level. They don’t have to prepare players for the majors because the owner doesn’t care. They can just screw around with failed development ideas, watch things tank, and then sit around and have a beer.
I'm guessing the roster is basically set..
1b- Telez
2b - Peguero
3b - Hayes
SS - Cruz
LF - Reynolds
CF - Suwinski
RF - Olivares
DH - McCutchen
Bench 1 - Delay or Ali Sanchez
Bench 2 - Joe
Bench 3- Bae or Triolo
Bench 4 - Palacois
13 Man pitching staff.
I don't see room for Williams as a glove first backup SS. I'm guessing he'll be up in case of injury and run Cruz out there as much as humanly possible with Peggy as Cruz' primary backup and Triolo or Bae sliding to 2nd
We'll need 2 catchers, are you missing Hank as C? This really shows how few spots are really open......it's real easy to get to 13 real fast. Probably will go north with 14 to start......
Nice catch, I missed Hank @ C
I absolutely hate the idea of glove-first backups. Due to pinch-hitting, bench guys get used disproportionately for offense. Unless you have a starter who absolutely has to come out for defense, which the Pirates don’t, glove-first bench guys serve no purpose.
Well, a guy DFAed from the Royals is not going to start for us so... Olivares will be a backup and his defense is garbage so there ONE non-glove first backup. Cutch and Tellez will end up platooning so there's at least one other non-glove first backup.
I am in this boat. Unless your corner outfielders are Schwarber and Castellanos (where I truly think CFers could sue for cruelty in the workplace), if you can 'live' with a lesser defender for 7 innings because of their bat then why take that offensive player out only to find yourself 2 innings later needing the offense because the game is tied now due to normal (non-poor defense) reasons. I see too often some lame bat defender hitting in the 9th because they came into protect a lead and they literally made ZERO plays defending that lead. I have no idea what the 'data' shows but unless you are just a rock glove (see Phillie example), keep the bat in the lineup and to your point, make better use of that roster spot.
Triolo is a pretty safe bet to have a spot.
I think he's most likely IF to be traded.
agreed - also i think Bae over Palacios because of center field
Right there with ya, only way I can see Bae back in Indy is for at bats and a focus on center field. Maybe work some on his baserunning.
That'll be the 3 man battle of the 25 and 26th man...Tri, bae and JP
much better course of action than wasting money on Michael Taylor
My thought would be an infield of Hayes at 3B, Cruz at SS, Peguero at 2B, Tellez or Joe at 1B, and Triolo as the Util IF. Young, strong defensively, and with big promise offensively. Triolo played 2B, 3B, and 1B last year and I am positive if asked to play SS he'd be a damn good SS also. I would be hoping to get 750 to 800 innings at SS from Cruz, possibly 250 to 300 at SS from Peguero, and anything left over could be handled by Triolo. This could be the breakout year on both sides of the ball for Oneil Cruz and Liover Peguero. 2023 was a breakout year for Ke'Bryan Hayes who turned the corner by hitting 15 HR's coupled with a Gold Glove at 3B, and it would be fantastic to see him hit 20+ HR's in 2024.
I see little evidence for Peggy to start at 2B over Triolo, a minot league Gold Glove at his natural position of 3B.
The “as long as Oneil is healthy” is what worries me. Maybe it was a one-off freak injury, but maybe it recurs, or maybe he turns into someone who gets hurt regularly, or who’s to say that a freak accident can’t happen two years in a row.
Plus, even going into last year, there was debate about whether he could stick at short. Now he missed a whole year, and there’s not a question mark?
There’s no good SS on the market unless you buy a Tim Anderson bounceback, so I get not shopping there. But there is a big potential black hole that sucked us in last year, and this year we’re apparently thinking we’ll just skate along the event horizon.
that is the story of Gregory Polanco from 2017 and beyond
Polanco thoroughly destroyed his body when he got hurt. Had a cannon for an arm prior to the injury and that helped mitigate his shortcomings tracking fly balls. Had no power in his arm after the injury. Still was accurate in direction but no power to get the ball anywhere quick enough to make a difference.
That's fair, but in many ways I think the potential at the bat (and it's loss) is the big deal. If we had a mediocre veteran (Newman return) last year at SS I don't think that drastically changes the season outcome. Cruz is on the short list IMO of players that are just hard to have a real back up plan. Reynolds, Keller, and Hayes I would include on that list(maybe Bednar)if I was trying put on the rose colored glasses and picture a road to success in 2024. A lot of other things would have to happen, but I think those have to be some level of given if there is any hope. If there is a Hayes/Triolo debate - > sure Triolo can play third, but if Pirates are truly contending, the second half of 2023 Hayes needs to be present for all of 2024.
Hopefully we have a good problem for once, Hayes continues to rake, Cruz's bat reaches its ceiling, (with solid D at short) Triolo's bat is for real, while Peguero and Gonzales show they are both big leaguers. Heck hopefully Tellez hits a bunch of dingers before we trade him or lose him in free agency.
I'd like to take this moment to mention something I've come to believe, and I'll quote it as NMR, "Arm strength is overrated".
Look no further than our beloved gold glove third baseman who ranked 261st on Statcast with an average of 81.4 mph. Below average in general, and below average for 3B (86.2 mph)
Only positions I think it truly matters is catcher and OF. Mainly OF, cause a catcher can also minimize the need for arm strength with quality pop and exchange.
I think Key throws it exactly as hard as it needs to go. Also, he turns the most double plays from third which is a quick but not necessarily hard throw.. so I'm sure that skews the numbers.
And I'll counter with a wise quote from our very own AdminSky236, "we need to get guys the out-er-est as possible"
You get a harrumph out of me for that quote 😁
Hayes might have the best internal clock I've seen...almost to the point of toying with runners. I think there's more arm in him, but he doesn't need it.
I'm guessing he gets more runners out by half a step than any infielder in the sport.
100%
But just goes to show that there's so much more to being a good defender than "he has the arm". IIRC, Trevor Story's best defensive seasons, pre-elbow issues, were also "below average" arm strength. It's great to have, in those very small specific situations, but hardly a necessity for a player to be a capable defender.
I don't think they need a good backup option on the MLB roster as long as Oneill is healthy. If Peggy goes to SS once every two weeks or somebody else that is workable. As bad as they were, if Castro was only there once every two weeks we likely would have been ok. I do like the idea of having somebody in AAA who is more of a pure SS available (hello Williams). No matter how you slice/dice the roster if Cruz is out for a long period AND the Pirates are truly contending then the solution may come from the outside in some mediocre veteran who is still better than the Pirate stop gap option. If they are not contending, then you look even harder internally.
I think Triolo could play an adequate shortstop on a limited basis. Nothing flashy just gets to the ones he can.
Agree.
if only one of Triolo, Nick or Peguero were a left handed hitter
Peggy Peggy Peggy