Pirates released minor league pitchers Keneth Quintanilla, Jorge Ramos and Eliecer Romero. No real surprises here, though all three pitched well at the lower levels
we could play "two truths and a lie" with each purging the pirates do and there'd be like 2 people who actually get them right. Sooooo many dudes just passing through.
Bednar for a haul then get younger bednar from the giants and sneak him in as the same number as older brother and hope that noone notices the difference?
I’ve had to laugh at headlines saying Chapman is eager to join “thirsty” Pirates. I figure Nuttin must have installed a vending machine in the clubhouse charging $10 for bottled water.
Like others have posted, I like the Chapman deal--it should have ensured that we're playoff-quality in one of the big four dimensions: offense, defense, rotation, bullpen. Teams make the postseason without being strong in all four, but typically being strong in at least three. We're lacking in at least two of the four and maybe three (I think our offense will be okay but our defense below average).
Are we better on paper than we were on Opening Day of '23? I don't think so. Someone could make the case that we had a lot of bad luck with injuries (Shelton has cited that), but should we be counting on everything going right in '24? To be objective, I'm just looking at the current roster vs. what we went into '23 with and there seems to be work left to do.
The semi breakthroughs of last year could add far greater value to their 2024 seasons: KeBryan Hayes, Jack 'winski and Mitch Keller. I expect more out of Jaren Triolo and of course Oneil la Cruz! So, last year we won 76 games. This year .....
Will this said, I expect we'll be better in RF (Oliveras), 1B (Rowdy), 2B (Triolo) and improvement from Hayes, 'winski, AND Cruz and Reynolds. We will be stronger in the BP with imrprovement from Holderman and the supporting cast AND can we have some vibes for AROLDIS K!!
I generally agree with all you said. I would suggest, the stronger and deeper a bullpen is the less reliant on SP a contending team has to be. Now any team needs guys who can eat innings in the rotation to save the bullpen from getting overworked. But definitely don’t need 5 guys to pitch 150+ innings with a sub 4 ERA.
If Pirates can get 2-3 guys pitch around 6 innings of 3.50 -4.00 ERA per start for the first few months, they should be in thick of the division and/or wildcard race by the time they get reinforcements (Bru, Burrows, Jones, Skenes)for the playoff chase.
Again, in a vacuum, I don't dislike the Chapman signing overall. But as time passes, it's appearing more and more that it was made as a "See, we spent money this off-season like we said we would. Shopping in a 'different aisle' of the store."
Yes, another year of, "It makes them better, technically. And if they suck, well then just flip him for hopefully something". The neverending Pirates cycle, that always ends with option C, that hasn't really panned out itself. Which this DFA itself is another shining example of how well it's not going.
It’s simple for me. I’d have rather they’d sign a starter. They didn’t, so they pivoted to make a strength even stronger. Maybe there’s something to that.
We’ve seen teams stay in contention longer than expected due to stellar bullpen work, which can equalize things. Who knows, maybe that’s what we’ll get.
It's just such a weird overall construction of a roster as a whole. But maybe they have a 2023 Reds type year where Friedl, McLain, Steer, Elly DLC, Benson, and Fraley were mostly "Who?" (with exception to McLain and Elly) type guys, Abbott on the pitching side, that all put up respectable seasons.
With Pirates roster, you'd think maybe they'd at least lean into one thing that could provide cover for another. We can say we feel confident in the final 3-4 innings of a game, at least with run suppression. Thing I keep coming back to is the fact that aside from obviously Hayes, you have this heavily contact oriented rotation, with what tracks to be a below average defense. Although as I'm typing this, maybe that had something to do with getting the LH starters they did lol hoping RHH just yank EVERYTHING to Hayes. Maybe they are just trying to become a lesser Phillies lineup. Just big bomb your way through the season and into post-season with 30+ HR's from Suwinski, Cruz, and Davis each. B-Rey and Rowdy supplying secondary 20+ dinger seasons.
Tyler Anderson made them better, but that trade is looking like it may not even bring about a MLB plate appearance (I do have some hope with a full healthy Bins).
Quintana made them better, and Oviedo was a nice return for a season before TJS, while Nunez may never reach the majors, at least with the Pirates.
Vogelbach made them better, which returned Holderman. So, good one there.
Santana made them better, but that return will long be on hold.
Hill made them better, who paired with Choi is another return that is likely long off.
Austin Hedges.... I'll just stop right there
Ironically, what's may end up being one of Ben's best trades so far is trading a prospect (Nick Garcia) for Connor Joe. Then Jack Suwinski in the Frazier trade, although Marcano was the "real target".
Even though it doesn't fit your theme of a deadline deal, I think the Musgrove trade acquiring David Bednar and Endy Rodriguez was also a good one. I think the Quintana fan was a nice trade because I knew it stung some Cardinal fans to give up on Oviedo and Nunez. Not sure if Connor Joe or Suwinski was high on anyone's radar at the time of the trade. It took very little to get them so a nice job by the scouting as well.
The Musgrove deal is at least looking like it'll be a wash, at worst. Bednar was a good get. The unfortunate aspect with him being a Yinzer is they probably could've (or should've) flipped Bednar for a haul, but that'll never happen as it'd be a colossal PR blunder with the disdain surrounding everything else. That'd be the true Rays type move, who I'd argue didn't really see the benefit in the Archer deal that people want to believe. Where they're going to see the biggest benefit is from flipping Meadows and now Glasnow. Paredes has already accrued 6.7 fWAR for them. I like Endy, a lot, but he was also beginning to show some of the downfalls of their heavy contact-now-power-later approach with 2022 being an outlier. Hope he comes back full force.
Ha . . . Marcano, Diego Castillo, Park . . . they were on quite a roll with those utility infielders.
Something else that's different about Chapman, though, is that it isn't necessarily just a deal to set up a deadline deal. Or at least it shouldn't be. Actual major league teams will make deals like this when they think they can make a playoff run. We're just not used to seeing the Pirates do it because they haven't seriously tried to win baseball games under BC. It's the SORT of thing they should be ready to do.
Of course, the problem with all that is that they've made no meaningful effort to shore up their potential rotation disaster or to improve their chronically bottom-feeding offense. So my feeling about the Chapman signing is that it makes sense, as more than just a guy-to-trade-in-July thing, if they'd behave like a major league team in other areas. The fact that they don't isn't a problem with the Chapman signing, it's a problem with everything else they do.
I'll also add that I don't see it as $10M they could put on something else. I see it as $10M spent in addition to what they SHOULD be spending elsewhere. I don't accept their minor-league budget as some sort of necessity. Having a non-competitive payroll is THEIR choice.
I think the Pirates had several starting pitchers that they had on their list for the 10 to 12 million range. Those guys all went for 14 to 16 million. Rather than gamble on a lesser starter, they put their money on the best reliever they could get in Chapman.
Well, and not just utility infielders, but contact oriented hitters that may "develop power later", such as the now DFA'd CSN.
My issue isn't the signing of Chapman itself, it's the signing of him with his expected role that will likely be underutilized due to their inability to get to late game situations where he's needed for the role of what you'd spend $10.5M on him for. So at that point you kind of spent money to spend money.
It's also the timing, as to your first point. Cause spending the $10.5M on a backend reliever/closer at the beginning of the off-season might pique some interest in other FA's that maybe the Pirates intend to make an effort.
Yeah, see, I don't condone his past actions, but I'm capable of looking at this from a baseball standpoint in itself.
Weird how during our argument the other day I said "It'd make more sense if the Mariners would solve their 2B problem first", and huh, would you look at, I wonder what they did shortly after.
Option D through the rest of how many options you want to give should be sign better players where you need better players, and the Pirates list of needs is a litany of everything, with bullpen being dead last on that list.
In adding on to the Mariners point, it's kind of funny that not only did they seek to fix their 2B hole, they REALLY sought to fix it. Traded what seemed like a haul to Twins for Polanco, then acquired Samad Taylor when KC needed to dump someone, then signed Solak to a MiLB deal.
Meanwhile, the Pirates over here who could use a catcher (at least a better backup), a true CF (or a better everyday RF option), an actual good 1B, two (if we're feeling spicy) SP that may actually be dependable, and a 2B themselves that isn't "Hopefully one of these prospects FINALLY work out". They went out and signed a setup man. Not even a closer, a setup man. Going to be so cool watching him pitch 50-60 innings so that we can lose games only 5-2 instead of 10-2. That's better! Technically. I guess they signed another depth "starter" in Peralta, who had a near 7.00 ERA in Triple-A last year.
I'm not convinced they got better over the off-season, especially in relation to their NL Central opponents, who've all made some series of moves that weren't just a setup man when they had other glaring holes. The Pirates need to hope their developmental glitch resolves itself, or it's going to be a (another) LOOOOOONGGG season.
Once MLB opens up the 60-day IL the FA window will fly open and there will be a flood of signings. Hopefully the Pirates have money in the budget for another SP and CF.
This may be true--I need some reason to hope that we'll still add an impact pitcher to the rotation (#3 or better). But if that's why we're waiting, it's frustrating in that at least one and maybe two of Bae, Gonzales, Peguero, Triolo, and Williams could/should be moved to free up playing time for the others. There's talent there, but any of these players that the FO believes in needs to be playing nearly every day, not in for a day then out for a couple of days like Shelton's done with other young players. Pick you horse and go with him.
A solid #3? The only one I could think of in the FA market is Bauer, which I’m all for it. I don’t think we have the players for a trade, not saying that the lot of midfielders are not good, just not good enough yet (🤞) to get a controllable mid rotation starter.
Urias only “shoved” a woman…this time. He’s a repeat offender. His next pitching mound won’t be in an MLB park.
Clevinger is kinda like Chapman to me. And Bae for that matter. Not a pattern of abuse, just an isolated incident. Certainly not acceptable, but I don’t think they deserve a lifetime ban for what they did.
Have to trade a couple prospects who have real promise (Chandler, Solo, Harrington, Jones, Cheng, etc.) plus MLB ready guy like Triolo for example to get a SP that good.
BN doesn’t have the stomach for that kind of risk.
And for better or worse, Bauer is blackballed by MLB until his open cases get resolved. Maybe forever?
I’m guessing he’s fighting his accusers rather than settling with them because he’s concerned if one of them gets money, every woman he had kinky sex with will come for their piece of the pie, too.
Pure speculation on my part, but look at how many accusers DeShaun Watson had to pay after the dam broke.
Yes, one of the middle infielders would need to be part of a package that could include someone like Holderman and/or one of the pitching prospects. It would be a bold trade but if we don't add to the rotation to bridge to midseason, we won't be contending this year. (I've never seen any urgency beyond words by Ben or Derek, and why would there be under Nutting and Williams, so I'm not optimistic.)
Sorry I missed the conversation yesterday re CSN being DFA'd and Palacios returning. Hard to understand the Pirates sometimes, and this is one of those times. Palacios had a decent year for the Pirates with some late inning heroics, but . . . . ? It tells me BC deferred to our Manager on that call.
Alika is still here because the Rays mentioned that they wished they still had him (Franco issues). I guess we are waiting for the phone to ring? With Cruz, Peguero, Triolo, and Bae in place, the rest of MLB understands that guys like Williams, Gonzales, etc. are available. Make the call!
To be optimistic about the DFA of CSN, there are three possible outcomes and as long as Williams and or Nutting are paying attention, there is no bad outcome (huge if):
1. He passes through waivers and we keep him without needing a roster spot (good).
2. He gets claimed and goes on to success, which leads to significant changes as even Williams notices that despite all the talk, we have the same issues at recognizing and developing talent (frustrating but good if changes need to be made and are made).
3. He gets claimed and doesn't become more than a bench player (neutral, in terms of how it affects the Pirates (I'm rooting for CSN, so I'd not feel happy about this outcome).
Of all things to be pissed about, keeping the better baseball player (Palacios) and having a single viable defensive shortstop on the roster in case your already-marginal-shortstop-returning-from-season-ending-injury isn't very good at it anymore seems to be stretching.
If we were to claim or even deal for a guy like Williams--24 with a reputation for plus defense and an .869 OPS in AAA, I'd be feel like it was a good move despite the player struggling in his first 112 PAs in the majors.
I think the MI of Oneil Cruz at SS and Liover Peguero at 2B is as good as we can put out there in 2024. Because of the injury to Cruz, it's possible that Peguero could play 30 or more games at SS, providing a rest for Cruz to DH. If Bae is called upon to help again in CF, he or Util IF, Triolo, can adequately cover 2B.
Not pissed, "Hard to understand" the CSN DFA. He is going into his age 25 season, Palacios his age 29 season. We've given CSN a cup of coffee in '22, and not much more than that at the beginning of 2023. 28 Doubles/15 HR 839 OPS at AAA - why did we not bring him up in Aug or Sep and let him play himself in or play himself out?
I just never saw it with CSN. Imo, he didn't run well, wasn't a great defensive player and didn't hit enough. 2 months at the end of the minor league season don't move the needle for me. The one that I don't get is Andujar. They were paying him. He hit well in the minors pretty much all season, right? And wasn't getting a call up until the last month of the season. I dunno.
CSN wasn't a bad defender either. With his extra weight, it would appear he didn't run well, but he had speed when he wanted to use it. He did have 21 stolen bases last year.
I just keep coming back to how he looks exactly the same now as the first time I saw him after the trade.
You could dream back then about this absolute unit of a dude actually learning to be a baseball player, but there's been little development toward that end.
Seeing him in March and April he looked lazy, undisciplined and thought he was better than he really was. In August and September he hustled, looked disciplined and had a much better approach. His numbers backed that. If they were going to DFA him, I wish they would have done it last April, but definitely not now.
This. I wasn't big on Andujar. It's just that if you are low budget like the Pirates and you're paying him $1.7 million, and he's hitting over an extended period of time, why not use him? Maybe he finally figured it out. Maybe he's good for a month and you trade him. I just don't get it.
I don't get any of it either and would have preferred Andujar over Palacios. BC and Shelton seem to have some special fixation on Palacios. I also don't get dropping Andujar and picking up Oliveras. I honestly think that Andujar is the better player of the two. Whatever the case, fiddling around with the 26th spot on the roster and doing little to fix up the big problems on the other parts of the roster has been Ben Cherington's MO since he arrived.
Bligh Madris is a good example of someone that you are talking about and yes there are many.
But when we acquire guys like CSN and Miguel Andujar, there are good reasons for doing so. If not, we shouldn't have acquired them in the first place. However, when they do perform well, maybe that is the time to give them a chance. I think the Pirates would rather stick with the Oliveras and Joe type player because with those guys you know what you are getting.
I mean, yes, most major league baseball organizations do not treat their major league club as just another step in the minor leagues. Performance matters!
That's how I feel basically every time I talk about the Pirates. Teams that win just cut these dudes and move on. When people say trade away Bae or others I think who wants them? If they can't beat out the other schlubs on our team who can they beat out? Long paragraph to say I agree. Two crap options can both go in the toilet in my opinion. Another one will surely come along.
PS: All these dudes are way better than me at baseball so I am knocking there talent level vs the world population.
I hear you loud and clear. What bothers me more is that the Pirates did not follow through on their sales pitch from a few years ago. They traded away their high price players for a quantity of players that they now have no room for.
Yes Stats. And you have to wonder if they’ve stunted growth of some of these guys by not having the at-bats to fairly evaluate them, yanking them around between AAA and the MLB, etc. This is certainly true of the abundance of infielders. It is perplexing with CSN though. It’s not like they are loaded up with OF depth, yet they give him 44 PA’s in the majors before DFA’ing him? I struggle with the “you liked him enough to expend assets trading for him, but not to give him at bats?” aspect which seems illogical to me.
CSN also had the fractured hand or wrist I think in his call up in 2022. That cost him the remainder of that season. Hand/wrist injuries can take a considerable amount of time to fully heal. I have no clue if that factored into his early season struggles but I wouldn't discount it either.
Just your opinion, would you rather have Tellez at his salary of Andujar? I’m not sure myself and Andujar at least could stand in RF, but yeah lamenting the lost of this player is just a way to kill time!
BC obviously has a great affection for Middle Infielders. Even ones who can’t hit their weight, like Alika Williams. He figures if there’s no room for them on the infield, he’ll find playing time for them in the OF.
I figure Bae, Triolo, and Nick G will all see playing time in the OF this year.
I'd feel confident Triolo becoming at least league average defensively at every position except C, CF and SS. CF and SS he could at least not look bad but could provide more. Nick could potentially be a decent super utility but I wouldn't expect league average defensive.
Pirates released minor league pitchers Keneth Quintanilla, Jorge Ramos and Eliecer Romero. No real surprises here, though all three pitched well at the lower levels
we could play "two truths and a lie" with each purging the pirates do and there'd be like 2 people who actually get them right. Sooooo many dudes just passing through.
Id love a game of "name the fake player" with a bunch of dudes who got DFA'd and some fake names
Felix Pie, Todd Van Poppel, Jaff Dreker, Masumi Kuwata, Chan Ho Park
Jaff Dreker made me chuckle out loud
Neal Walker, Travis Snyder, Marlon Bird, AJ Happ, JA Burnett, Garrett Cole, Nick Gonzalez, Shawn Casey, Sean Dunston, Bryan Giles, Brian Reynolds.
Bednar for a haul then get younger bednar from the giants and sneak him in as the same number as older brother and hope that noone notices the difference?
I’ve had to laugh at headlines saying Chapman is eager to join “thirsty” Pirates. I figure Nuttin must have installed a vending machine in the clubhouse charging $10 for bottled water.
Like others have posted, I like the Chapman deal--it should have ensured that we're playoff-quality in one of the big four dimensions: offense, defense, rotation, bullpen. Teams make the postseason without being strong in all four, but typically being strong in at least three. We're lacking in at least two of the four and maybe three (I think our offense will be okay but our defense below average).
Are we better on paper than we were on Opening Day of '23? I don't think so. Someone could make the case that we had a lot of bad luck with injuries (Shelton has cited that), but should we be counting on everything going right in '24? To be objective, I'm just looking at the current roster vs. what we went into '23 with and there seems to be work left to do.
The semi breakthroughs of last year could add far greater value to their 2024 seasons: KeBryan Hayes, Jack 'winski and Mitch Keller. I expect more out of Jaren Triolo and of course Oneil la Cruz! So, last year we won 76 games. This year .....
Will this said, I expect we'll be better in RF (Oliveras), 1B (Rowdy), 2B (Triolo) and improvement from Hayes, 'winski, AND Cruz and Reynolds. We will be stronger in the BP with imrprovement from Holderman and the supporting cast AND can we have some vibes for AROLDIS K!!
Yeah, I see 85 wins, of course .....
Maybe they'll have another "Are they the best team in baseball?" 20-8 run to start the year lol
I generally agree with all you said. I would suggest, the stronger and deeper a bullpen is the less reliant on SP a contending team has to be. Now any team needs guys who can eat innings in the rotation to save the bullpen from getting overworked. But definitely don’t need 5 guys to pitch 150+ innings with a sub 4 ERA.
If Pirates can get 2-3 guys pitch around 6 innings of 3.50 -4.00 ERA per start for the first few months, they should be in thick of the division and/or wildcard race by the time they get reinforcements (Bru, Burrows, Jones, Skenes)for the playoff chase.
Which, in looking up something, I'd completely forgotten about acquiring Billy McKinney lol
Again, in a vacuum, I don't dislike the Chapman signing overall. But as time passes, it's appearing more and more that it was made as a "See, we spent money this off-season like we said we would. Shopping in a 'different aisle' of the store."
I like it for these reasons...
A. It makes the Pirates better.
B. It's a 1-year deal.
C. If it doesn't make the Pirates good enough, they can flip him at the deadline and hope to get a Ragans in return.
Yes, another year of, "It makes them better, technically. And if they suck, well then just flip him for hopefully something". The neverending Pirates cycle, that always ends with option C, that hasn't really panned out itself. Which this DFA itself is another shining example of how well it's not going.
It’s simple for me. I’d have rather they’d sign a starter. They didn’t, so they pivoted to make a strength even stronger. Maybe there’s something to that.
We’ve seen teams stay in contention longer than expected due to stellar bullpen work, which can equalize things. Who knows, maybe that’s what we’ll get.
It's just such a weird overall construction of a roster as a whole. But maybe they have a 2023 Reds type year where Friedl, McLain, Steer, Elly DLC, Benson, and Fraley were mostly "Who?" (with exception to McLain and Elly) type guys, Abbott on the pitching side, that all put up respectable seasons.
With Pirates roster, you'd think maybe they'd at least lean into one thing that could provide cover for another. We can say we feel confident in the final 3-4 innings of a game, at least with run suppression. Thing I keep coming back to is the fact that aside from obviously Hayes, you have this heavily contact oriented rotation, with what tracks to be a below average defense. Although as I'm typing this, maybe that had something to do with getting the LH starters they did lol hoping RHH just yank EVERYTHING to Hayes. Maybe they are just trying to become a lesser Phillies lineup. Just big bomb your way through the season and into post-season with 30+ HR's from Suwinski, Cruz, and Davis each. B-Rey and Rowdy supplying secondary 20+ dinger seasons.
The difference between this one and the rest of the cycle is that this one actually DOES make the team better. Most of the previous signings didn't.
Tyler Anderson made them better, but that trade is looking like it may not even bring about a MLB plate appearance (I do have some hope with a full healthy Bins).
Quintana made them better, and Oviedo was a nice return for a season before TJS, while Nunez may never reach the majors, at least with the Pirates.
Vogelbach made them better, which returned Holderman. So, good one there.
Santana made them better, but that return will long be on hold.
Hill made them better, who paired with Choi is another return that is likely long off.
Austin Hedges.... I'll just stop right there
Ironically, what's may end up being one of Ben's best trades so far is trading a prospect (Nick Garcia) for Connor Joe. Then Jack Suwinski in the Frazier trade, although Marcano was the "real target".
Even though it doesn't fit your theme of a deadline deal, I think the Musgrove trade acquiring David Bednar and Endy Rodriguez was also a good one. I think the Quintana fan was a nice trade because I knew it stung some Cardinal fans to give up on Oviedo and Nunez. Not sure if Connor Joe or Suwinski was high on anyone's radar at the time of the trade. It took very little to get them so a nice job by the scouting as well.
The Musgrove deal is at least looking like it'll be a wash, at worst. Bednar was a good get. The unfortunate aspect with him being a Yinzer is they probably could've (or should've) flipped Bednar for a haul, but that'll never happen as it'd be a colossal PR blunder with the disdain surrounding everything else. That'd be the true Rays type move, who I'd argue didn't really see the benefit in the Archer deal that people want to believe. Where they're going to see the biggest benefit is from flipping Meadows and now Glasnow. Paredes has already accrued 6.7 fWAR for them. I like Endy, a lot, but he was also beginning to show some of the downfalls of their heavy contact-now-power-later approach with 2022 being an outlier. Hope he comes back full force.
Ha . . . Marcano, Diego Castillo, Park . . . they were on quite a roll with those utility infielders.
Something else that's different about Chapman, though, is that it isn't necessarily just a deal to set up a deadline deal. Or at least it shouldn't be. Actual major league teams will make deals like this when they think they can make a playoff run. We're just not used to seeing the Pirates do it because they haven't seriously tried to win baseball games under BC. It's the SORT of thing they should be ready to do.
Of course, the problem with all that is that they've made no meaningful effort to shore up their potential rotation disaster or to improve their chronically bottom-feeding offense. So my feeling about the Chapman signing is that it makes sense, as more than just a guy-to-trade-in-July thing, if they'd behave like a major league team in other areas. The fact that they don't isn't a problem with the Chapman signing, it's a problem with everything else they do.
I'll also add that I don't see it as $10M they could put on something else. I see it as $10M spent in addition to what they SHOULD be spending elsewhere. I don't accept their minor-league budget as some sort of necessity. Having a non-competitive payroll is THEIR choice.
I think the Pirates had several starting pitchers that they had on their list for the 10 to 12 million range. Those guys all went for 14 to 16 million. Rather than gamble on a lesser starter, they put their money on the best reliever they could get in Chapman.
Well, and not just utility infielders, but contact oriented hitters that may "develop power later", such as the now DFA'd CSN.
My issue isn't the signing of Chapman itself, it's the signing of him with his expected role that will likely be underutilized due to their inability to get to late game situations where he's needed for the role of what you'd spend $10.5M on him for. So at that point you kind of spent money to spend money.
It's also the timing, as to your first point. Cause spending the $10.5M on a backend reliever/closer at the beginning of the off-season might pique some interest in other FA's that maybe the Pirates intend to make an effort.
Ok.
Option D. Don't sign Chapman.
Option E. Sign a slew of shittier players for 10.5M
I'm of the opinion that the Chapman signing is personal with you...his past is the problem.
8 years ago. Hopefully he’s a different person than he was 8 years ago. Anyone who was at the old place 8 years ago hopefully knows I’m a changed man.
Yeah, see, I don't condone his past actions, but I'm capable of looking at this from a baseball standpoint in itself.
Weird how during our argument the other day I said "It'd make more sense if the Mariners would solve their 2B problem first", and huh, would you look at, I wonder what they did shortly after.
Option D through the rest of how many options you want to give should be sign better players where you need better players, and the Pirates list of needs is a litany of everything, with bullpen being dead last on that list.
In adding on to the Mariners point, it's kind of funny that not only did they seek to fix their 2B hole, they REALLY sought to fix it. Traded what seemed like a haul to Twins for Polanco, then acquired Samad Taylor when KC needed to dump someone, then signed Solak to a MiLB deal.
Meanwhile, the Pirates over here who could use a catcher (at least a better backup), a true CF (or a better everyday RF option), an actual good 1B, two (if we're feeling spicy) SP that may actually be dependable, and a 2B themselves that isn't "Hopefully one of these prospects FINALLY work out". They went out and signed a setup man. Not even a closer, a setup man. Going to be so cool watching him pitch 50-60 innings so that we can lose games only 5-2 instead of 10-2. That's better! Technically. I guess they signed another depth "starter" in Peralta, who had a near 7.00 ERA in Triple-A last year.
I'm not convinced they got better over the off-season, especially in relation to their NL Central opponents, who've all made some series of moves that weren't just a setup man when they had other glaring holes. The Pirates need to hope their developmental glitch resolves itself, or it's going to be a (another) LOOOOOONGGG season.
Totally agree. I don't dislike the Chapman signing but to be the big splurge is neglecting the bigger issues.
They didn't even have to spend a lot in actual dollars or trade capital to improve a considerable amount, other than starting pitching.
PROGRESS!
Once MLB opens up the 60-day IL the FA window will fly open and there will be a flood of signings. Hopefully the Pirates have money in the budget for another SP and CF.
This may be true--I need some reason to hope that we'll still add an impact pitcher to the rotation (#3 or better). But if that's why we're waiting, it's frustrating in that at least one and maybe two of Bae, Gonzales, Peguero, Triolo, and Williams could/should be moved to free up playing time for the others. There's talent there, but any of these players that the FO believes in needs to be playing nearly every day, not in for a day then out for a couple of days like Shelton's done with other young players. Pick you horse and go with him.
A solid #3? The only one I could think of in the FA market is Bauer, which I’m all for it. I don’t think we have the players for a trade, not saying that the lot of midfielders are not good, just not good enough yet (🤞) to get a controllable mid rotation starter.
Clevinger, Bauer, Urias…
Urias only “shoved” a woman…this time. He’s a repeat offender. His next pitching mound won’t be in an MLB park.
Clevinger is kinda like Chapman to me. And Bae for that matter. Not a pattern of abuse, just an isolated incident. Certainly not acceptable, but I don’t think they deserve a lifetime ban for what they did.
I don’t t think Urías is playing anytime soon, isn’t he suspended? Clevinger , not high on but he might do.
Have to trade a couple prospects who have real promise (Chandler, Solo, Harrington, Jones, Cheng, etc.) plus MLB ready guy like Triolo for example to get a SP that good.
BN doesn’t have the stomach for that kind of risk.
And for better or worse, Bauer is blackballed by MLB until his open cases get resolved. Maybe forever?
he isnt even listed on the mlb.com free agent list that they keep up to date
https://www.mlb.com/news/2023-24-mlb-free-agents-by-position
I’m guessing he’s fighting his accusers rather than settling with them because he’s concerned if one of them gets money, every woman he had kinky sex with will come for their piece of the pie, too.
Pure speculation on my part, but look at how many accusers DeShaun Watson had to pay after the dam broke.
Yes, one of the middle infielders would need to be part of a package that could include someone like Holderman and/or one of the pitching prospects. It would be a bold trade but if we don't add to the rotation to bridge to midseason, we won't be contending this year. (I've never seen any urgency beyond words by Ben or Derek, and why would there be under Nutting and Williams, so I'm not optimistic.)
Sorry I missed the conversation yesterday re CSN being DFA'd and Palacios returning. Hard to understand the Pirates sometimes, and this is one of those times. Palacios had a decent year for the Pirates with some late inning heroics, but . . . . ? It tells me BC deferred to our Manager on that call.
Alika is still here because the Rays mentioned that they wished they still had him (Franco issues). I guess we are waiting for the phone to ring? With Cruz, Peguero, Triolo, and Bae in place, the rest of MLB understands that guys like Williams, Gonzales, etc. are available. Make the call!
Wily?
To be optimistic about the DFA of CSN, there are three possible outcomes and as long as Williams and or Nutting are paying attention, there is no bad outcome (huge if):
1. He passes through waivers and we keep him without needing a roster spot (good).
2. He gets claimed and goes on to success, which leads to significant changes as even Williams notices that despite all the talk, we have the same issues at recognizing and developing talent (frustrating but good if changes need to be made and are made).
3. He gets claimed and doesn't become more than a bench player (neutral, in terms of how it affects the Pirates (I'm rooting for CSN, so I'd not feel happy about this outcome).
Of all things to be pissed about, keeping the better baseball player (Palacios) and having a single viable defensive shortstop on the roster in case your already-marginal-shortstop-returning-from-season-ending-injury isn't very good at it anymore seems to be stretching.
If we were to claim or even deal for a guy like Williams--24 with a reputation for plus defense and an .869 OPS in AAA, I'd be feel like it was a good move despite the player struggling in his first 112 PAs in the majors.
I think the MI of Oneil Cruz at SS and Liover Peguero at 2B is as good as we can put out there in 2024. Because of the injury to Cruz, it's possible that Peguero could play 30 or more games at SS, providing a rest for Cruz to DH. If Bae is called upon to help again in CF, he or Util IF, Triolo, can adequately cover 2B.
Not pissed, "Hard to understand" the CSN DFA. He is going into his age 25 season, Palacios his age 29 season. We've given CSN a cup of coffee in '22, and not much more than that at the beginning of 2023. 28 Doubles/15 HR 839 OPS at AAA - why did we not bring him up in Aug or Sep and let him play himself in or play himself out?
I see the GoldGlove of the minopr leagues, Jared Triolo, starting at 2B. Triolo offers much more offensively, as well
I just never saw it with CSN. Imo, he didn't run well, wasn't a great defensive player and didn't hit enough. 2 months at the end of the minor league season don't move the needle for me. The one that I don't get is Andujar. They were paying him. He hit well in the minors pretty much all season, right? And wasn't getting a call up until the last month of the season. I dunno.
CSN wasn't a bad defender either. With his extra weight, it would appear he didn't run well, but he had speed when he wanted to use it. He did have 21 stolen bases last year.
He ran well when charging the mound in that video yesterday. But agree with the rest.
I just keep coming back to how he looks exactly the same now as the first time I saw him after the trade.
You could dream back then about this absolute unit of a dude actually learning to be a baseball player, but there's been little development toward that end.
Seeing him in March and April he looked lazy, undisciplined and thought he was better than he really was. In August and September he hustled, looked disciplined and had a much better approach. His numbers backed that. If they were going to DFA him, I wish they would have done it last April, but definitely not now.
minor league baseball is littered with dudes who've looked like studs for a couple months at a time.
I hope for his sake this was a true turn of the corner, but do not bemoan the Pirates for hedging their bets.
This. I wasn't big on Andujar. It's just that if you are low budget like the Pirates and you're paying him $1.7 million, and he's hitting over an extended period of time, why not use him? Maybe he finally figured it out. Maybe he's good for a month and you trade him. I just don't get it.
I don't get any of it either and would have preferred Andujar over Palacios. BC and Shelton seem to have some special fixation on Palacios. I also don't get dropping Andujar and picking up Oliveras. I honestly think that Andujar is the better player of the two. Whatever the case, fiddling around with the 26th spot on the roster and doing little to fix up the big problems on the other parts of the roster has been Ben Cherington's MO since he arrived.
Bligh Madris is a good example of someone that you are talking about and yes there are many.
But when we acquire guys like CSN and Miguel Andujar, there are good reasons for doing so. If not, we shouldn't have acquired them in the first place. However, when they do perform well, maybe that is the time to give them a chance. I think the Pirates would rather stick with the Oliveras and Joe type player because with those guys you know what you are getting.
I mean, yes, most major league baseball organizations do not treat their major league club as just another step in the minor leagues. Performance matters!
Im on the same exact boat as you, we are not gonna miss CSN, but we might miss Andujar.
we'll know the Pirates are close to contention when we stop arguing over two shitty options for the 25th guy on the roster lol
That's how I feel basically every time I talk about the Pirates. Teams that win just cut these dudes and move on. When people say trade away Bae or others I think who wants them? If they can't beat out the other schlubs on our team who can they beat out? Long paragraph to say I agree. Two crap options can both go in the toilet in my opinion. Another one will surely come along.
PS: All these dudes are way better than me at baseball so I am knocking there talent level vs the world population.
every single baseball player and front office member has forgotten more about baseball than I've ever learned, absolutely!
I hear you loud and clear. What bothers me more is that the Pirates did not follow through on their sales pitch from a few years ago. They traded away their high price players for a quantity of players that they now have no room for.
Yes Stats. And you have to wonder if they’ve stunted growth of some of these guys by not having the at-bats to fairly evaluate them, yanking them around between AAA and the MLB, etc. This is certainly true of the abundance of infielders. It is perplexing with CSN though. It’s not like they are loaded up with OF depth, yet they give him 44 PA’s in the majors before DFA’ing him? I struggle with the “you liked him enough to expend assets trading for him, but not to give him at bats?” aspect which seems illogical to me.
Fair, but seems like this would be worthy of concern if literally any of them were finding success after leaving Pittsburgh.
Their scattershot plan for the rebuild was inevitably gonna lead to this. Cast a wide net and give a ton of guys opportunity to *earn* their time.
Huntington was crucified for handing out "scholarships", Cherington for not giving enough arbitrary at bats.
The theme for me isn't damned if you do damned if you don't, it's that fans will get restless with any plan if it doesn't actually produce.
Couple high profile dev wins and we wouldn't be questioning process.
CSN also had the fractured hand or wrist I think in his call up in 2022. That cost him the remainder of that season. Hand/wrist injuries can take a considerable amount of time to fully heal. I have no clue if that factored into his early season struggles but I wouldn't discount it either.
90% of specific arguments on Pirates internet are really just frustrations with systemic issues, you're absolutely right brother.
Just your opinion, would you rather have Tellez at his salary of Andujar? I’m not sure myself and Andujar at least could stand in RF, but yeah lamenting the lost of this player is just a way to kill time!
It's Tellez for me, dawg.
Or when we're arguing about actually viable 25th/26th options on the roster, and 40-man.
BC obviously has a great affection for Middle Infielders. Even ones who can’t hit their weight, like Alika Williams. He figures if there’s no room for them on the infield, he’ll find playing time for them in the OF.
I figure Bae, Triolo, and Nick G will all see playing time in the OF this year.
If Triolo o Nick could play a solid outfield this year, that would make a lot of sense.
I'd feel confident Triolo becoming at least league average defensively at every position except C, CF and SS. CF and SS he could at least not look bad but could provide more. Nick could potentially be a decent super utility but I wouldn't expect league average defensive.
Triolo was actually a consistent Glod Glove winner during his minor leagues
I know he got the minor league Gold Glove in 2021 for 3rd while at Greensboro.
I think he'd be way above average at 3rd, 2nd and 1st.