What a lousy offseason! At the beginning, we all wanted an upgrade from the same old Santana signing. Now we're defending a Santana signing over Tellez. Next thing you know, we'll say how great it is that Tellez was signed. Talk about downgraded acceptance levels. Why not sign a Rhys Hoskins? Because this team hardly ever signs real baseball players that actually make the team better. Instead, they have signed this offseason an aging "name" bullpen pitcher when they needed starters and literally the guy that their average traded first baseman replaced on another team. How depressing! If their offseason isn't done yet, should I expect anything reasonable to improve the team?
After over 4 years of a rebuild, we have 2 above average position players (both already in the organization), one starting pitcher (also already in the organization) and a good bullpen. This might be the worst run organization in baseball with the next to last owner.
Sure we have several potential players but all have question marks or red flags. Again this front office is terrible.
Ok. Was racking my brain. They do habitually suck. I don't think I can think of many dudes on that team. The Shea Langawhatever they got from the Braves and the skinny ass dude that stole a lot of bases last year. Walt Weiss?
Off Topic Spring Training Question: How do I find out when and where the Pirates will be practicing in spring training? (I assume it is either Pirates City or Lecom). Are all of them open practices. I will be arriving in Bradenton around noon on February 16th.
The 2 positions easiest to find power and production we have Palacios and Oliveras/Joe in Right Field and Tellez and Joe/Triolo at 1st base. Five players and less than $10 million invested. This front office is terrible!
A defensive first CF would at least move Suwinski to right field were his defense should be above average.
Like it, btw I’ve written this before, but Suwinski (better fielder) in left and BRey (better arm) in RF I think is the best alignment if we had a better fielding CF.
Suwinski has to hit 5 per melkel! Probably depends on handedness of starter to some extent. Also unsure if cruz will be leading off like he was early last year before injury. Maybe: cruz, brey, cutch, tellez, suwinski, hayes, davis, oliverez, peggy?
Rowdy is a bench player on an average team. And not on the roster of a good team. If a starter gets hurt, he can fill in and not provide negative value. That’s all he is.
A good team would not carry Tellez on the bench. He cannot backup any position (except 1B sort of). He cannot run, and his bat is OK at best. He is a major downgrade, actually, from Vogelbach, who was the same player, except an on-base machine, who forced opposing pitchers to throw him 25 pitches per game.
Gotta love a middling farm system for a team supposedly fresh out of a rebuild! I know these rankings dont mean anything, but that sort of matches the eye test for what we got right now
I was (and am still) in favor of Santana > Tellez and seeing the price point am disappointed in the outcome. I guess there is some chance Santana preferred signing elsewhere but IMO $ usually talks. I think both are aging bottom division first basemen offensively(barely) but the defense Santana brings (and dugout leadership it seems) adds to his value. It's easy to say Hayes is an elite fielder (he is), but that doesn't mean Santana as a plus defender still likely saved him from an error (or two). Now add in a rocket armed shortstop and it adds to my preference. I don't think either choice is a huge game changer and maybe Rowdy will take advantage of the Clemente wall enough to make it worthwhile. Neither signing would have screamed we are pushing hard for a real playoff chance.
Santana didn’t get that much more than Tellez. ~$2 MM isn’t coming close to breaking the bank, even for a more financially challenged team like the Bucs.
Yes, the concept that you'd have Santana at 1B to not only catch Cruz's throws but as a mentor if he struggled with those throws or other things made a lot of sense. The only reasons to go with Tellez over Santana is you're hunting for the best bargain or there wasn't the choice--even though Santana expressed interest in coming back, he may not have been ready to sign when Tellez did for the amount he just agreed to. Probably a combination of the two.
I'm more than a little tired of the "mentor" angle. If it's so effective, why did the 2023 Pirates start playing much better baseball literally the very day they traded all the veteran presences? Better player presence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> veteran presence.
Adding an old guy to a roster does not make a team better because he is old. Many have lost some of their passion they once had for the game. As far as Carlos Santana goes, he had more passion and enthusiasm than most any Pirate at the time. It was obvious in spring training that adding him to the team last year changed the culture in a positive way. My problem last year was when The Pirates hit their big slump. We had guys sulking, jogging to first and playing with their heads down. None of our veterans gave them a kick in the ass that they needed.
Which was when Santana was still here! They hit the skids in May and June. If he was so fiery and veteran-like, why didn’t he do anything about the lack of hustle then?
That was my point. You have guys that can help lead a team with little expectations, but to also be able to lead when things were going bad we had no one. Cutch would bust his ass running to first every time. I thought it was a total lack of respect for some of the younger guys to not run hard. I thought some of our veterans should have straightened that out.
So Carlos is a leader but not the right kind? Not a wartime consigliere? They lost because they weren’t that good. If leadership was an issue, it’s way down on the list. I get your point that there is no excuse for not hustling, but Cutch isn’t a fiery guy to kick someone’s ass and maybe it wasn’t Santana’s either.
It depends on the player--if they perform, like Santana did or like A.J. did, I think they bring something valuable. If all they add is mentorship, as seemed to be the case with Hedges, then I think they bring the team down.
In Santana's case, the Brewers took off once they acquired him as had the Mariners the year before. I'm not assigning cause-and-effect, but offering a counterpoint to your comment about the Pirates playing better after he left. That better play likely had to do with promoting prospects, playing a catcher who added something at the plate, things clicking with Hayes (and just getting Hayes back), and some unexpected performances from Palacios.
The Brewers got better because they ditched or cut way back on a bunch of guys who’d been dreadful—Brian Anderson, Joey Weimer, Jesse Winker, Tellez—added Mark Canha, and got Brandon Woodruff back. They totally transformed their team because, incredibly, they wanted to win. Better players win. Veteran presence is BS.
The Brewers are a well run organization, they'll most likely be competing for the division. The Twins are well run too. The Brewers got Santana last year because Tellez was a black hole. The Twins got Santana this year because of uncertainty at first (injuries and youth). They committed more for insurance than the pirates do to compete.
I was hoping for Fujinami as a cheap starter who tosses 100+.
Not sure with all the soft tossers why a guy like that wasn’t considered.
I’m also wondering if there’s any consideration to Holderman moving to a starter role??
What a lousy offseason! At the beginning, we all wanted an upgrade from the same old Santana signing. Now we're defending a Santana signing over Tellez. Next thing you know, we'll say how great it is that Tellez was signed. Talk about downgraded acceptance levels. Why not sign a Rhys Hoskins? Because this team hardly ever signs real baseball players that actually make the team better. Instead, they have signed this offseason an aging "name" bullpen pitcher when they needed starters and literally the guy that their average traded first baseman replaced on another team. How depressing! If their offseason isn't done yet, should I expect anything reasonable to improve the team?
After over 4 years of a rebuild, we have 2 above average position players (both already in the organization), one starting pitcher (also already in the organization) and a good bullpen. This might be the worst run organization in baseball with the next to last owner.
Sure we have several potential players but all have question marks or red flags. Again this front office is terrible.
What owner is worse?
Fisher the owner of the A's.
Ok. Was racking my brain. They do habitually suck. I don't think I can think of many dudes on that team. The Shea Langawhatever they got from the Braves and the skinny ass dude that stole a lot of bases last year. Walt Weiss?
At least Bob keeps the facilities nice and has fireworks.
Off Topic Spring Training Question: How do I find out when and where the Pirates will be practicing in spring training? (I assume it is either Pirates City or Lecom). Are all of them open practices. I will be arriving in Bradenton around noon on February 16th.
I need help figuring out the line up, at first glance I have;
Cutch
BRey
Hayes
Cruz
Davis or G Sanchez if we do get him
Suwinski
Olivares
Tellez
Peguero
Would love to see other ideas.
1. Cruz SS
2. Reynolds LF
3. Hayes 3B
4. Suwinski CF
5. McCutchen DH
6. Tellez 1B
7. Davis C
8. Olivares RF
9. Peguero SS
Against a Right Hand Starter
Cruz SS
Hayes 3rd (if he continues)
Reynolds LF
Davis C
Suwinski CF
Cutch DH
Tellez 1st
Palacios RF
Peguero 2nd
Against a Left Hand Starter
Triolo SS or 2nd (Cruz day off)
Hayes 3rd
Reynolds LF
Davis C
Olivares RF
Cutch DH
Joe 1st
Suwinski CF (we need a defensive CF)
Peguero 2nd or SS
Bench
Backup C Delay or Sanchez
RF Palacios and Oliveras
Utility Triolo
1st base Tellez and Joe
The 2 positions easiest to find power and production we have Palacios and Oliveras/Joe in Right Field and Tellez and Joe/Triolo at 1st base. Five players and less than $10 million invested. This front office is terrible!
A defensive first CF would at least move Suwinski to right field were his defense should be above average.
Like it, btw I’ve written this before, but Suwinski (better fielder) in left and BRey (better arm) in RF I think is the best alignment if we had a better fielding CF.
I can see that.
Suwinski has to hit 5 per melkel! Probably depends on handedness of starter to some extent. Also unsure if cruz will be leading off like he was early last year before injury. Maybe: cruz, brey, cutch, tellez, suwinski, hayes, davis, oliverez, peggy?
Dont love that now that i am looking at it
That’s why I asked, very curious to see what the team will roll out. I know full well that it’ll be a fluid line up.
I'm curious on everyone's opinions:
Assuming a lineup is hitting well, do you prefer a more traditional "everyday" lineup or a more dynamic fluid approach to it?
I tend to think both have their own merits and drawbacks.
With all the info on match up and the deficiencies of most of our players I think fluidity makes sense.
We'll need fluid after we see what Shelton does to this line up, lol.
Rowdy is a bench player on an average team. And not on the roster of a good team. If a starter gets hurt, he can fill in and not provide negative value. That’s all he is.
A good team would not carry Tellez on the bench. He cannot backup any position (except 1B sort of). He cannot run, and his bat is OK at best. He is a major downgrade, actually, from Vogelbach, who was the same player, except an on-base machine, who forced opposing pitchers to throw him 25 pitches per game.
Gotta love a middling farm system for a team supposedly fresh out of a rebuild! I know these rankings dont mean anything, but that sort of matches the eye test for what we got right now
wow, only 5.25 mil? i think he’s significantly better than Rowdy for only 2 mil more.. this offseason gets more and more depressing
That seems like a great landing spot for Carlos.
Best HR dance after that walk-off. Loved his energy.
I was (and am still) in favor of Santana > Tellez and seeing the price point am disappointed in the outcome. I guess there is some chance Santana preferred signing elsewhere but IMO $ usually talks. I think both are aging bottom division first basemen offensively(barely) but the defense Santana brings (and dugout leadership it seems) adds to his value. It's easy to say Hayes is an elite fielder (he is), but that doesn't mean Santana as a plus defender still likely saved him from an error (or two). Now add in a rocket armed shortstop and it adds to my preference. I don't think either choice is a huge game changer and maybe Rowdy will take advantage of the Clemente wall enough to make it worthwhile. Neither signing would have screamed we are pushing hard for a real playoff chance.
Santana didn’t get that much more than Tellez. ~$2 MM isn’t coming close to breaking the bank, even for a more financially challenged team like the Bucs.
Yes, the concept that you'd have Santana at 1B to not only catch Cruz's throws but as a mentor if he struggled with those throws or other things made a lot of sense. The only reasons to go with Tellez over Santana is you're hunting for the best bargain or there wasn't the choice--even though Santana expressed interest in coming back, he may not have been ready to sign when Tellez did for the amount he just agreed to. Probably a combination of the two.
I'm more than a little tired of the "mentor" angle. If it's so effective, why did the 2023 Pirates start playing much better baseball literally the very day they traded all the veteran presences? Better player presence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> veteran presence.
Adding an old guy to a roster does not make a team better because he is old. Many have lost some of their passion they once had for the game. As far as Carlos Santana goes, he had more passion and enthusiasm than most any Pirate at the time. It was obvious in spring training that adding him to the team last year changed the culture in a positive way. My problem last year was when The Pirates hit their big slump. We had guys sulking, jogging to first and playing with their heads down. None of our veterans gave them a kick in the ass that they needed.
Which was when Santana was still here! They hit the skids in May and June. If he was so fiery and veteran-like, why didn’t he do anything about the lack of hustle then?
That was my point. You have guys that can help lead a team with little expectations, but to also be able to lead when things were going bad we had no one. Cutch would bust his ass running to first every time. I thought it was a total lack of respect for some of the younger guys to not run hard. I thought some of our veterans should have straightened that out.
So Carlos is a leader but not the right kind? Not a wartime consigliere? They lost because they weren’t that good. If leadership was an issue, it’s way down on the list. I get your point that there is no excuse for not hustling, but Cutch isn’t a fiery guy to kick someone’s ass and maybe it wasn’t Santana’s either.
also why did the tank not good at catching mumbling start immediately after they traded Hedges?
It depends on the player--if they perform, like Santana did or like A.J. did, I think they bring something valuable. If all they add is mentorship, as seemed to be the case with Hedges, then I think they bring the team down.
In Santana's case, the Brewers took off once they acquired him as had the Mariners the year before. I'm not assigning cause-and-effect, but offering a counterpoint to your comment about the Pirates playing better after he left. That better play likely had to do with promoting prospects, playing a catcher who added something at the plate, things clicking with Hayes (and just getting Hayes back), and some unexpected performances from Palacios.
The Brewers got better because they ditched or cut way back on a bunch of guys who’d been dreadful—Brian Anderson, Joey Weimer, Jesse Winker, Tellez—added Mark Canha, and got Brandon Woodruff back. They totally transformed their team because, incredibly, they wanted to win. Better players win. Veteran presence is BS.
The Brewers are a well run organization, they'll most likely be competing for the division. The Twins are well run too. The Brewers got Santana last year because Tellez was a black hole. The Twins got Santana this year because of uncertainty at first (injuries and youth). They committed more for insurance than the pirates do to compete.
AJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Santana