In the misery loves company / baseball is hard category, worth noting 6 of BA's Top 10 prospects right now are either injured or off to terrible starts.
2 of the 4 in the positive play for your Pittsburgh Pirates.
In your words of wisdom, look at the calendar. Seriously I was actually looking at that today, and the underachieving prospects go way past number ten. I don't ever remember it being this bad.
In regards to the thread below about Hank, Endy, and Cruz.....if Nicky G. can't hit MLB pitching and Termar washes out.....Bob has absolutely no choice but to relieve BC of his duties. You simply cannot miss on 1st rounders, let alone 1/1's as a small market GM, or any GM for that matter. Skenes was a no-brainer, he should not save BC.
The only thing that got Huntington out was lurid headlines. A combination of bad stories coming out of the clubhouse and the nameless one getting arrested. The latter wasn't NH's fault, but it'd be naive to suppose it didn't play a role. If the current incompetent can avoid that sort of stuff, he can lose 100 games a year for the rest of his lifetime and he's not going anywhere.
I finally read that article. It confirms basically everything that I believed was going on: overemphasis on data people with little or no actual baseball coaching experience; complete lack of discipline throughout the organization; the bizarre protectiveness of Andy Haines and his "school" of hitting; the frustration of both current and former players at an organizational culture that is content with being bad. Hayes really came off well in that piece, and I have a new respect for him. Puts the whole sunflower seeds thing in perspective. He was trying to get better... trying to win... and the organization came down on him and Nunnally over stupid, petty professional jealousy. The Pirates are a trainwreck.
Feels like to me just a near-Ivy-goof Cherington falling in love with how clever it sounds to find magic in a bottle by hiring some tiny Dutch "movement expert" instead of actual proven baseball people who cost something Nutting won't offer: money. All in the quest of trying to look innovative and being clever.
Under Cherington, they had some new-age "body movement" schwami from the Netherlands, who had never swung a bat at a ball, running a hitting clinic. No wonder these guys are a mess at the plate.
I have realized that the reason we are not hitting homers is because we have no homer celebration in order to incentivize players to hit a bomb! Influenced by the Twins' homer sausage, I believe we need a homer primanti's sandwhich to be wrapped, sealed, and used as a celebration prop. Otherwise, we might never hit a homer again
It was announced that Skenes will start for Indy on Sunday. Which pretty much means theyre holding him down until Super 2. The last 6 years the cutoff has ranged from 5/22 to 6/10.
If he dominates on Sunday like he did on Tuesday, they're still going to have trouble justifying keeping him down until the projected Super Two deadline has passed.
Justifying? They don't feel they have to justify to anyone....fans or beat reporters or the union or MLB. I will be truly surprised if he comes up before Super Two. I'd give 90% chance they hold him back. And that's being generous when I really think it's a 100% chance!
I think he'll be up by Super Two, which may not make the most sense since we're now just weeks away, but Cherington and Shelton may be desperate to "flip the narrative".
For me, the most interesting part of the article is this, and I couldn't agree more with the last line (they're all talk, little action):
"Of greater issue, in my opinion, has been a team-wide approach that clearly isn’t jibing with players’ comforts, desires or strengths.
They’re force-feeding the idea of seeing pitches and working walks. The unfortunate byproduct has been exactly what this group promised it would avoid: a one-size-fits-all approach."
The Mackey article is spot on. There's no coddling Shelton or Haines. He's even proposing letting them go. Some here throw Mackey under the bus, but this article is his finest work.
It’s taken a *long* time for him to come around. It just bugged me that he had to throw in the fact that they are good people. And if they were from Pittsburgh, they would be even better people, no doubt.
He had a comment on DK sports board basically indicting the offense under Cherrington. Last in runs in MLB since he’s come on board. It’s not a recent issue, they’ve just never put together a good offense in any way.
Tsung-Che Cheng's start is specifically crafted to trigger this board.
Walk rate and K-rate both at all-time highs and batting average at an all-time low (crowd boos)...but also 10% more productive overall than his first go through AA (crowd cheers).
I disagree with the Top Pitcher at A+ - I would have favored the 22 year old SP with 4 IP, 14 Whiffs more than I would a 25 year old RP with 2 IP. Bae in CF yesterday.
Wanted to also mention the new approach at the plate for the Pirates is not all bad. I always tend to look at the BB/K ratio of hitters. If close to 1-1 or even 1-2 or 2.5, it means our hitters are getting on base taking Walks, and also putting the ball in play at a better rate. We just need to see more balls dropping for hits when the ball is put into play, and I think that will come. Here's the positives -
Reynolds - 20 BB, 28K
Bart - 7 BB, 11 K
Joe - 11 BB, 16 K
Cutch - 12 BB, 30 K
Suwinski - 12 BB, 21 K
Hayes - 14 BB, 22 K
Triolo - 11 BB, 24 K
Teams with good BB/K numbers tend to put more pressure on the opposing pitchers. This will result in wins - cannot become passive, which I do not think is happening, but it's just baseball - sometimes the hits are just not getting through or dropping. Patience
Bad offense, bad defense, bad baserunning, and complete disinterest in preventing the other team from taking bases at will. Who could have seen this coming? What a surprise! It's not like any of us on this forum were predicting this.
Yeah, the fact that us dumb people on the internets could've foreseen all the issues that would arise, means they're doing something wrong.
Like, "Oh, shocker... Cruz isn't actually a competent shortstop. Nor Davis a catcher."
Pitching is the one area where, "Ok. Ok. Jones is shoving, Skenes is shoving, Perez looks like he's found himself, and a bunch of prospects look better than their scouting reports." Everything else is becoming, we knew it wasn't likely to be good, but didn't expect it to look THIS bad.
They are slumping. It will look better, but like you say, at it's best, this offensive is bottom third of the league. They could get by with that if they could play defense and run the bases. They cannot do either of these things, however, so they will finish probably around 72 and 90 again, despite having one of the best pitching staffs in the league. I could live with all of this if there were clear signs of help on the way, but there are not. The minor-league system is bereft of talent for position players, and there has been no indication that they intend to trade prospects for positions of need, preferring instead to continue their endless dumpster dives.
Really can't stress the importance of Cruz and Endy enough. Hank, too, of course, but let's all be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that Endy has been the catcher of the future for the last 18 months at least.
Getting to 75 wins really only requires the bare minimum of effort (literally not yet attempted, maybe this year at best) and competency (still in question).
Getting from 75 to 90 is the challenge, and there's just no realistic chance that happens without Cruz and Endy working out.
Funny you should post that Mel on the heels of me just having read this article, https://www.mlb.com/pirates/news/pirates-hitting-coach-andy-haines-discusses-offensive-struggles, lol. When it was mentioned to him that there is the perspective out there that the Pirates hitters are being patience and taking pitches he says, “That’s not accurate,” Haines said. “That’s never messaged that way. We never practiced that way.” Sounds a tad defensive, lol.
"Do you fans think they are keeping me around just because I'm pretty", lol. But yeah, I understand these guys can't tell the truth and say they suck at their jobs.
To your point, failure is failure, but this isn't like the Huntington group who openly acknowledged how they were developing pitchers. Seems here we're making assumptions about how the hitters are being developed that just isn't true.
Last night the obvious hit me that while we've been happy with our pitching, the pitching against us has been even better--I'm sure our opponents' fans are focusing on that rather than our poor hitting.
So I wondered how the "strength" of our team in the first month+ ranked--by Fangraphs we're 17th in pitching WAR and even when we only look at SP we're only 16th. I.e., the one part of the game that we feel good about is at best league average.
Which is kind of funny in that, that's what they appeared to be going into the season. A staff that was going to be dependent on it's defense. Meanwhile, the defense has been trash. A little better of late, but still trash.
In the misery loves company / baseball is hard category, worth noting 6 of BA's Top 10 prospects right now are either injured or off to terrible starts.
2 of the 4 in the positive play for your Pittsburgh Pirates.
In your words of wisdom, look at the calendar. Seriously I was actually looking at that today, and the underachieving prospects go way past number ten. I don't ever remember it being this bad.
You’re right!
Decent college game on ESPN tonight at 7pm (Florida v Tennessee).
Weather delay
In regards to the thread below about Hank, Endy, and Cruz.....if Nicky G. can't hit MLB pitching and Termar washes out.....Bob has absolutely no choice but to relieve BC of his duties. You simply cannot miss on 1st rounders, let alone 1/1's as a small market GM, or any GM for that matter. Skenes was a no-brainer, he should not save BC.
From a baseball standpoint, certainly, but Bob doesn't care about baseball. Ben knew that, which is why he took the Pirates' job.
It does beg the question of how long a rebuild can last.
Huntington's three winning years bought him near-total job security.
What happens if that small window doesn't materialize by, say, 2026? I'm genuinely curious. Can you tear down a rebuild?
The only thing that got Huntington out was lurid headlines. A combination of bad stories coming out of the clubhouse and the nameless one getting arrested. The latter wasn't NH's fault, but it'd be naive to suppose it didn't play a role. If the current incompetent can avoid that sort of stuff, he can lose 100 games a year for the rest of his lifetime and he's not going anywhere.
That Athletic article in February was freaking _brutal_. If that didn't get him fired, you might be right.
I finally read that article. It confirms basically everything that I believed was going on: overemphasis on data people with little or no actual baseball coaching experience; complete lack of discipline throughout the organization; the bizarre protectiveness of Andy Haines and his "school" of hitting; the frustration of both current and former players at an organizational culture that is content with being bad. Hayes really came off well in that piece, and I have a new respect for him. Puts the whole sunflower seeds thing in perspective. He was trying to get better... trying to win... and the organization came down on him and Nunnally over stupid, petty professional jealousy. The Pirates are a trainwreck.
He swung a bat...just in the Netherlands and never MLB haha. https://barthanegraaff.weebly.com/about-me.html
Feels like to me just a near-Ivy-goof Cherington falling in love with how clever it sounds to find magic in a bottle by hiring some tiny Dutch "movement expert" instead of actual proven baseball people who cost something Nutting won't offer: money. All in the quest of trying to look innovative and being clever.
Under Cherington, they had some new-age "body movement" schwami from the Netherlands, who had never swung a bat at a ball, running a hitting clinic. No wonder these guys are a mess at the plate.
Why not? Detroit did.
Yes, and the year-end bonuses keep getting handed out due to the revenue sharing, and everyone is happy on Federal Street.
I have realized that the reason we are not hitting homers is because we have no homer celebration in order to incentivize players to hit a bomb! Influenced by the Twins' homer sausage, I believe we need a homer primanti's sandwhich to be wrapped, sealed, and used as a celebration prop. Otherwise, we might never hit a homer again
The big balls move from Major League to commemorate the astonishingly big balls installed outside PNC Park.
It was announced that Skenes will start for Indy on Sunday. Which pretty much means theyre holding him down until Super 2. The last 6 years the cutoff has ranged from 5/22 to 6/10.
If he dominates on Sunday like he did on Tuesday, they're still going to have trouble justifying keeping him down until the projected Super Two deadline has passed.
Justifying? They don't feel they have to justify to anyone....fans or beat reporters or the union or MLB. I will be truly surprised if he comes up before Super Two. I'd give 90% chance they hold him back. And that's being generous when I really think it's a 100% chance!
I think he'll be up by Super Two, which may not make the most sense since we're now just weeks away, but Cherington and Shelton may be desperate to "flip the narrative".
Thanks for the update. I will be going to Indy and all of the games between 5/27 and 6/5.
No worries. Skenes will still be there for you. Sounds like a great week!
In my latest update of Jason Mackey watch, he’s reduced to saying that Shelton and Haines are nice guys:
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/jason-mackey/2024/05/02/pittsburgh-pirates-skenes-oneil-cruz-rockies-angels-cubs-mlb-news/stories/202404290120
For me, the most interesting part of the article is this, and I couldn't agree more with the last line (they're all talk, little action):
"Of greater issue, in my opinion, has been a team-wide approach that clearly isn’t jibing with players’ comforts, desires or strengths.
They’re force-feeding the idea of seeing pitches and working walks. The unfortunate byproduct has been exactly what this group promised it would avoid: a one-size-fits-all approach."
The Mackey article is spot on. There's no coddling Shelton or Haines. He's even proposing letting them go. Some here throw Mackey under the bus, but this article is his finest work.
It’s taken a *long* time for him to come around. It just bugged me that he had to throw in the fact that they are good people. And if they were from Pittsburgh, they would be even better people, no doubt.
In his defense, it is harder to be harshly critical when you're the beat reporter and in the man's office every day vs when you are a columnist.
He replaced Ron Cook as a columnist at the PG when Cook retired, and Noah Hyles took over as the beat reporter.
Love to see Reilly's name at the top of Whiffs list.
He's my latest "person of interest".
Mel said the rest below.
WTM getting a shout out this morning on DK daily shot of Pirates
I came here to say the same thing; he’s famous! WTM: Pirat-ess Emeritus!
Quite the lathering from DK as well 👏👏👏
He did mention that he and WTM “don’t always agree.” I wonder about what 🧐
Dunno. There was some stuff with BD when I was involved there. I remember he did a guest Q/A there. Don’t remember too much else.
I remember BDers and DK tossing insults around. It was acrimonious!
Because DK is, was and always will be a chapped ass!
Hahaha, yes. What was the context?
He had a comment on DK sports board basically indicting the offense under Cherrington. Last in runs in MLB since he’s come on board. It’s not a recent issue, they’ve just never put together a good offense in any way.
I’m paraphrasing a bit, but I think that was the gist.
Tsung-Che Cheng's start is specifically crafted to trigger this board.
Walk rate and K-rate both at all-time highs and batting average at an all-time low (crowd boos)...but also 10% more productive overall than his first go through AA (crowd cheers).
Booooooooo
His first go through AA was bad. This is just a variant of bad. The obvious take is that he may not be good enough.
Sammy Siani, you have my attention.
Try being in a group chat with Nola. We hear about it daily lol
I disagree with the Top Pitcher at A+ - I would have favored the 22 year old SP with 4 IP, 14 Whiffs more than I would a 25 year old RP with 2 IP. Bae in CF yesterday.
Wanted to also mention the new approach at the plate for the Pirates is not all bad. I always tend to look at the BB/K ratio of hitters. If close to 1-1 or even 1-2 or 2.5, it means our hitters are getting on base taking Walks, and also putting the ball in play at a better rate. We just need to see more balls dropping for hits when the ball is put into play, and I think that will come. Here's the positives -
Reynolds - 20 BB, 28K
Bart - 7 BB, 11 K
Joe - 11 BB, 16 K
Cutch - 12 BB, 30 K
Suwinski - 12 BB, 21 K
Hayes - 14 BB, 22 K
Triolo - 11 BB, 24 K
Teams with good BB/K numbers tend to put more pressure on the opposing pitchers. This will result in wins - cannot become passive, which I do not think is happening, but it's just baseball - sometimes the hits are just not getting through or dropping. Patience
Could it also mean teams that put more pressure on the opposing pitchers tend to have have good BB/K numbers/
4th lowest exit velocity. 9th lowest xBA. 6th lowest xSLG. 9th lowest xwOBA. 10th lowest xwOBACON.
The offense may be underperforming from a standpoint of hits not dropping, but it's not a huge gap when they do. The offense will still be bad.
I blacked out when you said bacon lol
Bad offense, bad defense, bad baserunning, and complete disinterest in preventing the other team from taking bases at will. Who could have seen this coming? What a surprise! It's not like any of us on this forum were predicting this.
Yeah, the fact that us dumb people on the internets could've foreseen all the issues that would arise, means they're doing something wrong.
Like, "Oh, shocker... Cruz isn't actually a competent shortstop. Nor Davis a catcher."
Pitching is the one area where, "Ok. Ok. Jones is shoving, Skenes is shoving, Perez looks like he's found himself, and a bunch of prospects look better than their scouting reports." Everything else is becoming, we knew it wasn't likely to be good, but didn't expect it to look THIS bad.
They are slumping. It will look better, but like you say, at it's best, this offensive is bottom third of the league. They could get by with that if they could play defense and run the bases. They cannot do either of these things, however, so they will finish probably around 72 and 90 again, despite having one of the best pitching staffs in the league. I could live with all of this if there were clear signs of help on the way, but there are not. The minor-league system is bereft of talent for position players, and there has been no indication that they intend to trade prospects for positions of need, preferring instead to continue their endless dumpster dives.
Really can't stress the importance of Cruz and Endy enough. Hank, too, of course, but let's all be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that Endy has been the catcher of the future for the last 18 months at least.
Getting to 75 wins really only requires the bare minimum of effort (literally not yet attempted, maybe this year at best) and competency (still in question).
Getting from 75 to 90 is the challenge, and there's just no realistic chance that happens without Cruz and Endy working out.
Funny you should post that Mel on the heels of me just having read this article, https://www.mlb.com/pirates/news/pirates-hitting-coach-andy-haines-discusses-offensive-struggles, lol. When it was mentioned to him that there is the perspective out there that the Pirates hitters are being patience and taking pitches he says, “That’s not accurate,” Haines said. “That’s never messaged that way. We never practiced that way.” Sounds a tad defensive, lol.
what do you want him to say?
"Do you fans think they are keeping me around just because I'm pretty", lol. But yeah, I understand these guys can't tell the truth and say they suck at their jobs.
Specifically about the content, tho.
To your point, failure is failure, but this isn't like the Huntington group who openly acknowledged how they were developing pitchers. Seems here we're making assumptions about how the hitters are being developed that just isn't true.
I'll admit I really don't what they are doing or attempting to do but they have been mostly unsuccessful at whatever it is.
How do we know what is legit power at Greensboro and what is only stadium based?
wait to see who can peg the coaster in Altoona.
At least this club cant hurt us today
Oh, but they can. When Altoona and Bradenton combine for 3 total hits.
Three?! So if they just add a couple key hits . . . SUCCESS!!!
Keep in mind, Altoona has a double header
They’ll have to rely on the kindness of strangers. Need walks and errors to set up those key hits.
I saw a Marauders game this year where most of the offense literally came from balks.
It's been a rough stretch. Some good pitching being wasted.
Last night the obvious hit me that while we've been happy with our pitching, the pitching against us has been even better--I'm sure our opponents' fans are focusing on that rather than our poor hitting.
So I wondered how the "strength" of our team in the first month+ ranked--by Fangraphs we're 17th in pitching WAR and even when we only look at SP we're only 16th. I.e., the one part of the game that we feel good about is at best league average.
I really don't think WAR is useful in evaluating pitchers.
That's shocking, good find. I thought our SP's would easily be top 10 if not higher.
FIP-based WAR; Pirate starters are 11th in ERA but 20th in FIP. Perez, Gonzales, and Priester all doing a fair bit of dancing through the raindrops.
A take completely based on vibes and nothing else, perez can keep dancing enough to be valuable but gonzales and priester have something else coming
Which is kind of funny in that, that's what they appeared to be going into the season. A staff that was going to be dependent on it's defense. Meanwhile, the defense has been trash. A little better of late, but still trash.
make it make sense!