I read this as “accounting” and nodded thinking ownerships desire to get under the tax fueled many of his moves. But yeah accountability is something to behold.
They'll probably end up at 74-75 wins. That's with losing Cruz for almost the entire year, and 3 of their top 7 starters (Brubaker, Vince, and Burrows) having season ending injuries. With a little better injury luck, it's arguable they win 78-80 games. This, coupled with the fact that they played decent after the trade deadline with young, controllable, guys should demonstrate to them that if 1. They had a good staff at the major league level to make sure these guys develop and 2. They supplement this roster with solid players they could actually be competitive next year. They won't
I hear ya, but after asking for 3 years when the rebuild was going to begin, I was very satisfied to see BC flood the major league roster with the young kids. They are learning the speed of the game together and this is not the point where I would want to add a "Key" player. I will be very happy to see the Pirates start 2024 with:
12 position players - Rodriguez & Davis, Hayes, Cruz, Peguero, Bae, Triolo, Joe, Reynolds and Suwinski, 'Cutch. CSN could be a possibility also
SP's - 5 - Keller, Oviedo, Jones, and then take your pick of Priester, Contreras, Ortiz, Bido, Falter
RP's - 9 - Bednar, Holderman, Mlodzinski, Moreta, Hernandez, Selby, Bolton, Borucki, YDLS, then add SP's that did not make the Rotation as needed.
I think they have to supplement the roster, and they could actually be competitive if they did so. Particularly, I think they would be wise to add a first baseman, mid-rotation starter, and a righty who can play CF, with maybe another 5th starter type guy for depth (along the lines of Hill/Velazquez).
It’s delusional to think they can win with only internal options and improvements from players on hand. Basically what you’re saying is that you’re counting on all of these guys to hit their 80th percentile outcome. That’s...wishcasting.
In other words, there’s no one out there that you think can improve a team that’s going to be roughly 15 games under .500.
Additionally, BC has been flooding the roster with kids the past 2-3 years. That just didn't happen this year.
There has to be some roster churn and trades this off-season. You can't just go with the same roster and hope for the best. Pretty sure that was Huntington's philosophy at the end of his tenure.
"1. They had a good staff at the major league level to make sure these guys develop and 2. They supplement this roster with solid players they could actually be competitive next year. They won't"
It's not about the x's and o's, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's. Some guys took big steps in their development and some guys didn't. Some guys were ready for the Show and others weren't.
I'm not a fan of BC, but to constantly blame Shelton and Haines is getting tiresome and redundant and not living in reality.
Bottom line, they took a nice step forward this season, it's up to the GM to supplement the roster and take that final step.
I'm not constantly blaming Shelton and Haines, so I'm not sure what that portion of your comment is about.
Having players with talent is always the most important part of the equation, but instruction, development, and tactics/strategy matter. We haven't been good at it at the major league level for some time, or at least the circumstantial evidence demonstrates as much. When you see Robert Stephenson and Clay Holmes become competent once leaving here (and, going further back, Cole and Glasnow) while watching Contreras and Ortiz take major steps back, you have to wonder. And when you consider Key attributes his break out to his AA hitting coach, many of the other young guys hitters stagnating in Pittsburgh, and Andy Haines track record, I don't think its unreasonable to question how much he helps.
There's a quote I read recently from an industry guy- I forget if it was here or Twitter or wherever- but he said he loves Pittsburgh's prospects until they get to Pittsburgh. It's just one guy, but that kind of encapsulates my feelings. Maybe none of these guys are as good as I thought, but I'm not sure we should be giving the major league coaching staff the benefit of the doubt.
No offense here, Scranton, but a lot of this is just regurgitated content.
Stephenson has been around the block for a while and has legit stuff, and only the Rays were able to harness his ability. Rays do this with a lot of guys.
Clay Holmes was a gross misconduct of talent evaluation. He was traded for a couple of Yankees prospects that were going to be off their 40-man roster that winter. Dereliction of duties.
Glasnow and Cole were from the previous regime. Cole sans his 2 seasons in Houston has been the same pitcher from a value standpoint as he was in Pittsburgh. I'm not sure either of these are relevant to the discussion.
Furthermore, you ignore the development of Hayes, Keller, Peguero, Endy, Suwinski, Holderman, Bednar, etc., all at the big-league level. Contreras probably isn't good and I'm not sure what they did to Ortiz, but it appears they want him to be a heavy sink guy that gets a ton of grounders. Not sure why they decided to make him into Jared Hughes.
Not intrigued by Perez - he played 40 games at 3B with Houston in AA last year (not a good fielder), and another 17 games in the OF (not a good fielder), and hit RHP's much better than LHP's. If we have to push somebody ahead, Matt Gorski is a solid defensive CF/OF.
My hope is he could just be our Joey Wiemer. Pop a couple nukes while giving them above average defense in CF. As for Davis, yeah, I'd just give him DH. Let him worry about hitting, and worry about the defense (where ever they're planning on him playing) in the off-season.
Damn, the Sox fired Bloom.
And the Mets hired Stearns!
Best development for long term pirate success all season.
Accountability is a hell of a thing.
I read this as “accounting” and nodded thinking ownerships desire to get under the tax fueled many of his moves. But yeah accountability is something to behold.
Alright, how funny was the jabroni catcher drilling his own pitcher in the head.
I've been watching baseball a long time, and never saw that before.
I'm not exactly sure what to make of this, but...
Pirates' 1st 50 games 26-24
Pirates' next 30 games 15-30
Pirates' last 51 games 27-24
Progress I suppose. What's a brother have to do to get bullet points in here?
“Pirates' next 30 games 15-30”
Things were so bad that they only played 30 of 45 games :)
Yeah, my idiot math was off there
Your overall point is a good one
For much of the season they played like a fringe WC team
To quote Bill Rawls: “Dots. The deputy likes dots.”
Elite comment quoting The Wire lol
They'll probably end up at 74-75 wins. That's with losing Cruz for almost the entire year, and 3 of their top 7 starters (Brubaker, Vince, and Burrows) having season ending injuries. With a little better injury luck, it's arguable they win 78-80 games. This, coupled with the fact that they played decent after the trade deadline with young, controllable, guys should demonstrate to them that if 1. They had a good staff at the major league level to make sure these guys develop and 2. They supplement this roster with solid players they could actually be competitive next year. They won't
I hear ya, but after asking for 3 years when the rebuild was going to begin, I was very satisfied to see BC flood the major league roster with the young kids. They are learning the speed of the game together and this is not the point where I would want to add a "Key" player. I will be very happy to see the Pirates start 2024 with:
12 position players - Rodriguez & Davis, Hayes, Cruz, Peguero, Bae, Triolo, Joe, Reynolds and Suwinski, 'Cutch. CSN could be a possibility also
SP's - 5 - Keller, Oviedo, Jones, and then take your pick of Priester, Contreras, Ortiz, Bido, Falter
RP's - 9 - Bednar, Holderman, Mlodzinski, Moreta, Hernandez, Selby, Bolton, Borucki, YDLS, then add SP's that did not make the Rotation as needed.
I think they have to supplement the roster, and they could actually be competitive if they did so. Particularly, I think they would be wise to add a first baseman, mid-rotation starter, and a righty who can play CF, with maybe another 5th starter type guy for depth (along the lines of Hill/Velazquez).
It’s delusional to think they can win with only internal options and improvements from players on hand. Basically what you’re saying is that you’re counting on all of these guys to hit their 80th percentile outcome. That’s...wishcasting.
In other words, there’s no one out there that you think can improve a team that’s going to be roughly 15 games under .500.
Additionally, BC has been flooding the roster with kids the past 2-3 years. That just didn't happen this year.
There has to be some roster churn and trades this off-season. You can't just go with the same roster and hope for the best. Pretty sure that was Huntington's philosophy at the end of his tenure.
You simply cannot win this way.
"1. They had a good staff at the major league level to make sure these guys develop and 2. They supplement this roster with solid players they could actually be competitive next year. They won't"
It's not about the x's and o's, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's. Some guys took big steps in their development and some guys didn't. Some guys were ready for the Show and others weren't.
I'm not a fan of BC, but to constantly blame Shelton and Haines is getting tiresome and redundant and not living in reality.
Bottom line, they took a nice step forward this season, it's up to the GM to supplement the roster and take that final step.
I'm not constantly blaming Shelton and Haines, so I'm not sure what that portion of your comment is about.
Having players with talent is always the most important part of the equation, but instruction, development, and tactics/strategy matter. We haven't been good at it at the major league level for some time, or at least the circumstantial evidence demonstrates as much. When you see Robert Stephenson and Clay Holmes become competent once leaving here (and, going further back, Cole and Glasnow) while watching Contreras and Ortiz take major steps back, you have to wonder. And when you consider Key attributes his break out to his AA hitting coach, many of the other young guys hitters stagnating in Pittsburgh, and Andy Haines track record, I don't think its unreasonable to question how much he helps.
There's a quote I read recently from an industry guy- I forget if it was here or Twitter or wherever- but he said he loves Pittsburgh's prospects until they get to Pittsburgh. It's just one guy, but that kind of encapsulates my feelings. Maybe none of these guys are as good as I thought, but I'm not sure we should be giving the major league coaching staff the benefit of the doubt.
No offense here, Scranton, but a lot of this is just regurgitated content.
Stephenson has been around the block for a while and has legit stuff, and only the Rays were able to harness his ability. Rays do this with a lot of guys.
Clay Holmes was a gross misconduct of talent evaluation. He was traded for a couple of Yankees prospects that were going to be off their 40-man roster that winter. Dereliction of duties.
Glasnow and Cole were from the previous regime. Cole sans his 2 seasons in Houston has been the same pitcher from a value standpoint as he was in Pittsburgh. I'm not sure either of these are relevant to the discussion.
Furthermore, you ignore the development of Hayes, Keller, Peguero, Endy, Suwinski, Holderman, Bednar, etc., all at the big-league level. Contreras probably isn't good and I'm not sure what they did to Ortiz, but it appears they want him to be a heavy sink guy that gets a ton of grounders. Not sure why they decided to make him into Jared Hughes.
OK. The coaching and development in Pittsburgh is top notch. You got me.
Correct. That's 100% what I implied.
Not intrigued by Perez - he played 40 games at 3B with Houston in AA last year (not a good fielder), and another 17 games in the OF (not a good fielder), and hit RHP's much better than LHP's. If we have to push somebody ahead, Matt Gorski is a solid defensive CF/OF.
Per Clay Davenport, Perez was as good at D this year as Gorski
I want them to just give Gorski a go.
He's worked the k rate down to semi-respectable #'s... why not.
Then again, with Davis slated to come back presumably for the weekend series vs the Yankees, who sits?
Outfield will be Reynolds-Suwinski-Davis. Middle infield of Peguero, Bae. Maybe DH is open?
My hope is he could just be our Joey Wiemer. Pop a couple nukes while giving them above average defense in CF. As for Davis, yeah, I'd just give him DH. Let him worry about hitting, and worry about the defense (where ever they're planning on him playing) in the off-season.
Not a bad comp for Gorski. Wiemer prob has just a bit more pop, but why not see what Gorski has?
I’m fine with that for the last few weeks this season. Davis fields with his bat.