well......it doesn't appear that we have much ability to coach up defensive outfielders. The last good outfielder we had, we traded to the mets (Marte). Reynolds, Suwinski, even Cutch, were never stellar defensively........... and Hank out there, a great athlete was a trainwreck (and yes i understand he didn't exactly have much practice out there)
Jack Suwinski has improved enormously since his time in San Diego but instead of assigning development credit to him and the Pirates we collectively chose to flog a certain prospect analyst for being "wrong".
Jack is not even an average defensive centerfielder. I'm talking about defense here, and noone deserves credit for turning a bad outfielder into an slightly below average one. That's not how winning teams are built. In my mind, thats neither a win nor a loss. Its a win acquiring his talent, developing it........I'm not giving out trips to the candy store for a C on a report card.
Soler and his contract are exactly why I'm not fatalistic about the game's "economics".
If my favorite team had a quarter billion dollars for payroll would I want them to sign Jorge Soler? Absolutely.
Is Jorge Soler a better player than, say, Rowdy Tellez? Very likely.
Is Jorge *so much* better than Rowdy Tellez that the difference amounts to more than a percentage point or two in terms of win probability? Almost certainly not.
The difference the last $100m on a $250m payroll gets you a couple percent. Still useful! Just not enough to throw a fit over the whole system.
I'm with you on this one. Solar is such a volatile player, big swings from one year to the next. Tellez is more of a Jake Burger and very well could break out like Burger did last season.
Mark Madden wrote an article on the Trib website about why the Pirates need to sign Bauer. I didn't read it due to the fact that I'm not a fan of his but just figured I would put it out there if any one was. No judgement from me. Promise.
So if those 9 in article are our starters, that leaves
Grandal, Bae, Palacios, Peggy as reserves. With possibly Alcantara winning the job over Peggy/Bae. And possibly Olivares beating out Palacios/Bae. That's a pretty weak bench.....argghh.
I think we'll quickly figure out which returning pitchers (Roansy, Priester, Ortiz and Falter) are legitimate rotation options. Then the offseason will make more sense. Reminder Roansy and Falter are out of options (OOO).
Really no rhyme or reason to it past losing three projected starters to Tommy John.
I give Cherington credit, in a way. If he cannot produce a couple decent starters, let alone a single one, then there's really not much point to this whole thing. Time to push the chips in and be accountable for how they fall.
Um keller counts. And i have no clue why youd think its our GMs job to develop anything. Its his job to accumulate talent. Coaches job to develop it. Its not his fault that burrows and oviedo blew out their arms, they were both "developed". Now if you want to blame cherington for not going out and finding impact players whule trading from areas of obsessive prospect depth, im with you there
My points are not mutually exclusive my friend. So yes, I do get both of the points which is 1) keller counts as developed under his regime and 2) its not his job to develop anyways even if you don't count keller, Oviedo, Burrows, the ongoing development of Solometo, Bubba, etc.
Cherington came in with the promise that he was a developmental guru. That the development system of Huntington was antiquated and did not use all the new bells and whistles that the Astros had pioneered... i.e. the machines that gather data on spin rate, zone % swing rates, etc... . Cherington was going to correct all this and then everything would be fine.
All that needed to happen, according to Cherington, was some new machines, a "playercentric" development model that allowed players to guide their own development, and emphasis on the fangraphs model of swinging less and at pitches that one can drive. He even made the decision to stay with the same scouts that Huntington used, so certain was he that the problem was just in development. Here we are 5 years later... and it certainly looks as though most of the guys that Cherington has traded for or acquired in his first 2 drafts are complete busts. So.... how is the new boss any different from the old?
Exactly- it is not their job to develop the talent. Instead, it is to be able somehow to gauge how well the plan is coming together. You have to realize that the GM's job isn't simply to "produce a winning team" rather it is to "accomplish the goals that the owner sets to him within a timeframe he is given" nowhere in there, does he answer to us, or what we think the timeline should be. At the end of the day, Nutting decides what money he will spend, and therefore in the event of injuries, and no movement in money available to the GM, the timeline simply must be moved back. Its the only option. Cherington is likely trying to sign a bunch of players, and is being outbid, or players see teams likely to make the playoffs and sign there....and there's nothing Cherington can do about it. If I'm a GM, the last thing i want to do is trade players that are part of the 2025-2030 plan. BUT, he does need to committ to learning which players are and are not part of that plan, and get the most back for the players whom aren't, to FILL HOLES in the organization. So far, he's been as dreadful as littlefield in that sense.
is it? okay then so......how long does it take to determine that they aren't doing a good job of developing? 3-4 years? How would you decide whom is to blame in the pipeline for kids not developing? This isn't the NFL where a coach brings in "his team" and its his fault. Baseball doesn't work that way.
Mackey is reporting in the PG that "sources" have confirmed that something is happening on either the FA front or with possibly a trade for Cabrera. They were just waiting for when they could move Endy/Oviedo/Brubaker to the 60 day DL to free up roster space.
Of course, that was published before they signed Fleming, so that could very well be it....
Fleming……no matter how much we lower our standards this front office seems to go lower and lower. How is he better than Falter? who I believe should be the next off the 40 (between him and Williams).
The fan was saying just a bit ago, Mackey was saying they're making a push for him and thought a deal could be done today. He's been beating that drum all winter so I guess we'll see
This would be exciting, and change the narrative of the offseason. It would seem that to acquire Cabrera we'd be giving up at least one player on the 40-man so I don't see why the deal would need to wait until today, but of course that doesn't matter. Maybe they wanted to see if they could get a better deal but don't want to delay any longer so that Cabrera doesn't lose time working with our staff.
What's to be said? Hope springs eternal this time of year as it should, but all I see is a Pirate lineup with the same holes it had last year at first base and in right field, an undecided catching situation and starting pitching that other than Keller is highly questionable and unproven. Cherington had chances to fill them with actual major league quality players but chose to keep the mediocre players he had and sign other mediocre players to one year contracts to replace the ones he traded away in July last year to very likely do the same thing this year. Same old, same old at least until proven otherwise. I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary but so far am not finding it.
Anyone who wants Joe to platoon at first base apparently either did not watch or has forgotten his vain efforts to play the position last year and watching his backside as he chased balls down the right field line that most any actual first baseman would have either caught or blocked while multiple runs scored. If he's the best option you've got, you don't have much of anything. If they plan to platoon at first base, Triolo should be the guy because of his defense if nothing else, but BCs in charge so anything goes.
Enough negativity, or is it reality? Whatever, it's spring and anything can happen in our minds anyway. Lets's Go Bucs!!!
Peguero will start the season in AAA and after 2 months develop into a star 2bman. After watching Cruz for a couple weeks in spring training at SS, the Pirates will move him to CF and after a couple months on-the-job training in CF, he becomes an elite level CFer, solving the Pirates OF problem. Triolo steps up and becomes a solid major-league SS. Rowdy Tellez becomes Vogelbach 2.0 and puts up a 2.5 WAR season, despite his defensive difficulties. Jack and Haynes become the players we saw in September of last year full-time and both put up 4.0 WAR seasons. Gonzalez bounces back and becomes a ringer 2nd starter, soft-tossing his way to a sub 4.00 ERA. Perez gets the two-seamer... cutter mojo back moving to both sides of the plate and getting lots of soft contact. He too puts up an ERA in the 4.00 range. Keller wins the NL Cy Young, and the bullpen is the feared unit in the majors. The Pirates go on to win the World Series. It is all possible.
I personally feel like when oviedo and endy went down, they realized that this is likely a lost year and turned 2024 into buying one more year for our pitching prospects to.develop without eating away valuable resources. Next year you have brubaker, oviedo, burrows, skenes, jared jones, and possibly solometo and dont need to sign anyone except maybe one more anchor in the middle, and then add in chandler. This also gives contreras and ortiz each one last shot at becoming what they
could be before we lose them to Tampa and watch them become 3 war pitchers overnight. Plus keeps financial respurces available to lock up keller
Roansy will be in rotation to start season, unless he’s on the IL. I say it’s 50/50 on either Ortiz or Priester in Indy to start season. If another SP is signed, then both of them will likely start year in Indy rotation.
He had a solid first year and fell off a cliff in year 2. The guy had to go back to Florida and not pitch in any games to try to get his confidence back. It’s more than just a bad year. Lol.
With only 8 position players noted by MLB.com, I can see Jared Triolo listed as our 2B. However, I think Liover Peguero will be our regular 2B coming out of ST, with Triolo seeing PT as our IF Utility Player which will include time at all 4 IF positions. Another name to be added will be Edward Olivares in RF; Joe will primarily be a platooning RH hitting 1B.
If I’m a betting man, one of Peguero, Gonzales, Bae, or Triolo will be traded in the very near future. Also, having both Joe and Tellez in the same lineup makes zero sense as they’re oppo-platoons. Oliveras has splits but nothing like Joe, Tellez, or Suwinski. Oliveras will likely be the starting right fielder. And lastly, that rotation 🤮
well......it doesn't appear that we have much ability to coach up defensive outfielders. The last good outfielder we had, we traded to the mets (Marte). Reynolds, Suwinski, even Cutch, were never stellar defensively........... and Hank out there, a great athlete was a trainwreck (and yes i understand he didn't exactly have much practice out there)
It's all in how you look at it.
Jack Suwinski has improved enormously since his time in San Diego but instead of assigning development credit to him and the Pirates we collectively chose to flog a certain prospect analyst for being "wrong".
Jack is not even an average defensive centerfielder. I'm talking about defense here, and noone deserves credit for turning a bad outfielder into an slightly below average one. That's not how winning teams are built. In my mind, thats neither a win nor a loss. Its a win acquiring his talent, developing it........I'm not giving out trips to the candy store for a C on a report card.
Soler and his contract are exactly why I'm not fatalistic about the game's "economics".
If my favorite team had a quarter billion dollars for payroll would I want them to sign Jorge Soler? Absolutely.
Is Jorge Soler a better player than, say, Rowdy Tellez? Very likely.
Is Jorge *so much* better than Rowdy Tellez that the difference amounts to more than a percentage point or two in terms of win probability? Almost certainly not.
The difference the last $100m on a $250m payroll gets you a couple percent. Still useful! Just not enough to throw a fit over the whole system.
I'm with you on this one. Solar is such a volatile player, big swings from one year to the next. Tellez is more of a Jake Burger and very well could break out like Burger did last season.
Mark Madden wrote an article on the Trib website about why the Pirates need to sign Bauer. I didn't read it due to the fact that I'm not a fan of his but just figured I would put it out there if any one was. No judgement from me. Promise.
BOO THIS MAN.
Just don't stone me. I'm Italian. I'm fragile.
fra-gee-lay
Glad you picked up on that. Can't slip anything past administration.
Around to scrutinize everything ;)
lol the leg lamp
I am Italian but can't say I have legs like that. And I don't mean hard plastic with a lightbulb in them.
that would make you Oscar Pistorius
This rotation is god awful, and the lineup is incredibly average
...but other than that.
So if those 9 in article are our starters, that leaves
Grandal, Bae, Palacios, Peggy as reserves. With possibly Alcantara winning the job over Peggy/Bae. And possibly Olivares beating out Palacios/Bae. That's a pretty weak bench.....argghh.
Thats not a weak bench at all...
I think we'll quickly figure out which returning pitchers (Roansy, Priester, Ortiz and Falter) are legitimate rotation options. Then the offseason will make more sense. Reminder Roansy and Falter are out of options (OOO).
Really no rhyme or reason to it past losing three projected starters to Tommy John.
I give Cherington credit, in a way. If he cannot produce a couple decent starters, let alone a single one, then there's really not much point to this whole thing. Time to push the chips in and be accountable for how they fall.
Year Five and BC has developed zero starters. And Nuttin thinks he’s great.
True but it looks like quite a few will be coming soon.
Um keller counts. And i have no clue why youd think its our GMs job to develop anything. Its his job to accumulate talent. Coaches job to develop it. Its not his fault that burrows and oviedo blew out their arms, they were both "developed". Now if you want to blame cherington for not going out and finding impact players whule trading from areas of obsessive prospect depth, im with you there
Sooo...does Keller count or not? You get one of the points you're trying to make, not both.
My points are not mutually exclusive my friend. So yes, I do get both of the points which is 1) keller counts as developed under his regime and 2) its not his job to develop anyways even if you don't count keller, Oviedo, Burrows, the ongoing development of Solometo, Bubba, etc.
Cherington came in with the promise that he was a developmental guru. That the development system of Huntington was antiquated and did not use all the new bells and whistles that the Astros had pioneered... i.e. the machines that gather data on spin rate, zone % swing rates, etc... . Cherington was going to correct all this and then everything would be fine.
All that needed to happen, according to Cherington, was some new machines, a "playercentric" development model that allowed players to guide their own development, and emphasis on the fangraphs model of swinging less and at pitches that one can drive. He even made the decision to stay with the same scouts that Huntington used, so certain was he that the problem was just in development. Here we are 5 years later... and it certainly looks as though most of the guys that Cherington has traded for or acquired in his first 2 drafts are complete busts. So.... how is the new boss any different from the old?
It's the GM's responsibility to hire coaches, scouts, and other personnel in development and acquisitions of players.
Also to have a plan, and alternatives in the event of injuries.
Exactly- it is not their job to develop the talent. Instead, it is to be able somehow to gauge how well the plan is coming together. You have to realize that the GM's job isn't simply to "produce a winning team" rather it is to "accomplish the goals that the owner sets to him within a timeframe he is given" nowhere in there, does he answer to us, or what we think the timeline should be. At the end of the day, Nutting decides what money he will spend, and therefore in the event of injuries, and no movement in money available to the GM, the timeline simply must be moved back. Its the only option. Cherington is likely trying to sign a bunch of players, and is being outbid, or players see teams likely to make the playoffs and sign there....and there's nothing Cherington can do about it. If I'm a GM, the last thing i want to do is trade players that are part of the 2025-2030 plan. BUT, he does need to committ to learning which players are and are not part of that plan, and get the most back for the players whom aren't, to FILL HOLES in the organization. So far, he's been as dreadful as littlefield in that sense.
Ummm . . . it’s the GM’s job to hire the coaches.
is it? okay then so......how long does it take to determine that they aren't doing a good job of developing? 3-4 years? How would you decide whom is to blame in the pipeline for kids not developing? This isn't the NFL where a coach brings in "his team" and its his fault. Baseball doesn't work that way.
Pirates just signed Josh Fleming to a split deal
I'm not sure I get this.
Well if the Pirates plan is to acquire every soft tossing lefty in the world, then they will evetually have to sign Jamie Moyer. That should be fun.
I think their plan is to follow the way the Rays are running it. I have my doubts mainly with Shelty at the helm.
Since they aren’t willing to pay for starters, the approach is going to be carrying 22 relievers. Just one problem . . . .
if they like him more than Falter, then that is fine
Saw a rumor that Cherington is in talks with Miami for Cabrera…….
If is the Gazette then know that it’s been a rumor now for months!!!!!
Mackey is reporting in the PG that "sources" have confirmed that something is happening on either the FA front or with possibly a trade for Cabrera. They were just waiting for when they could move Endy/Oviedo/Brubaker to the 60 day DL to free up roster space.
Of course, that was published before they signed Fleming, so that could very well be it....
Fleming……no matter how much we lower our standards this front office seems to go lower and lower. How is he better than Falter? who I believe should be the next off the 40 (between him and Williams).
Endy & Johan were placed on the 60 today.
Nah it was a baseball something. Com page. Somewhere new. May be just a regurgitation of older info or hopefully something new heating up. I dunno
The fan was saying just a bit ago, Mackey was saying they're making a push for him and thought a deal could be done today. He's been beating that drum all winter so I guess we'll see
Thanks for the additional info. As TNBucs said, it would be exciting if it happened soon.
This would be exciting, and change the narrative of the offseason. It would seem that to acquire Cabrera we'd be giving up at least one player on the 40-man so I don't see why the deal would need to wait until today, but of course that doesn't matter. Maybe they wanted to see if they could get a better deal but don't want to delay any longer so that Cabrera doesn't lose time working with our staff.
What's to be said? Hope springs eternal this time of year as it should, but all I see is a Pirate lineup with the same holes it had last year at first base and in right field, an undecided catching situation and starting pitching that other than Keller is highly questionable and unproven. Cherington had chances to fill them with actual major league quality players but chose to keep the mediocre players he had and sign other mediocre players to one year contracts to replace the ones he traded away in July last year to very likely do the same thing this year. Same old, same old at least until proven otherwise. I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary but so far am not finding it.
Anyone who wants Joe to platoon at first base apparently either did not watch or has forgotten his vain efforts to play the position last year and watching his backside as he chased balls down the right field line that most any actual first baseman would have either caught or blocked while multiple runs scored. If he's the best option you've got, you don't have much of anything. If they plan to platoon at first base, Triolo should be the guy because of his defense if nothing else, but BCs in charge so anything goes.
Enough negativity, or is it reality? Whatever, it's spring and anything can happen in our minds anyway. Lets's Go Bucs!!!
Peguero will start the season in AAA and after 2 months develop into a star 2bman. After watching Cruz for a couple weeks in spring training at SS, the Pirates will move him to CF and after a couple months on-the-job training in CF, he becomes an elite level CFer, solving the Pirates OF problem. Triolo steps up and becomes a solid major-league SS. Rowdy Tellez becomes Vogelbach 2.0 and puts up a 2.5 WAR season, despite his defensive difficulties. Jack and Haynes become the players we saw in September of last year full-time and both put up 4.0 WAR seasons. Gonzalez bounces back and becomes a ringer 2nd starter, soft-tossing his way to a sub 4.00 ERA. Perez gets the two-seamer... cutter mojo back moving to both sides of the plate and getting lots of soft contact. He too puts up an ERA in the 4.00 range. Keller wins the NL Cy Young, and the bullpen is the feared unit in the majors. The Pirates go on to win the World Series. It is all possible.
I personally feel like when oviedo and endy went down, they realized that this is likely a lost year and turned 2024 into buying one more year for our pitching prospects to.develop without eating away valuable resources. Next year you have brubaker, oviedo, burrows, skenes, jared jones, and possibly solometo and dont need to sign anyone except maybe one more anchor in the middle, and then add in chandler. This also gives contreras and ortiz each one last shot at becoming what they
could be before we lose them to Tampa and watch them become 3 war pitchers overnight. Plus keeps financial respurces available to lock up keller
seems like a decent lineup. i’d swap Joe and Triolo to the bench with Peguero & Olivares.
Unless BC gets another starter (doubt it), i’m thinking Roansy + Ortiz for the last 2 rotation spots with Falter as a long man outta the BP.
Problem is...decent isnt going to cut it with a well below average rotation
Agree!
I'm intrigued with Olivares. I have nothing to base this off but I'm getting Reggie Sanders vibes.
I'm probably going to be completely wrong, but I think they found a steal.
I'm cautiously optimistic about him as well. Would be thrilled if he showed some signs of Reggie
Well when cutch inevitably going down to injury he will dh. He's a horrible outfielder
He's a good athlete, there's a good fielder in there. Coach him up and let him play. Dude has a good arm for RF.
Poor man's Reggie would be a nice addition to the lineup.
Roansy will be in rotation to start season, unless he’s on the IL. I say it’s 50/50 on either Ortiz or Priester in Indy to start season. If another SP is signed, then both of them will likely start year in Indy rotation.
Agreed
I'm bullish on first half Roansy.
That reported uptick in velocity has my interest too.
Still don't know if he's 150 inning starter, but airing it out in the pen caught my attention plenty.
I hear ya. At this point, I will take anything positive out of Ro.
He had 1 bad year
He had a solid first year and fell off a cliff in year 2. The guy had to go back to Florida and not pitch in any games to try to get his confidence back. It’s more than just a bad year. Lol.
Ro doesn’t have to be in the rotation, he could also be in the pen.
We dont need him there
With only 8 position players noted by MLB.com, I can see Jared Triolo listed as our 2B. However, I think Liover Peguero will be our regular 2B coming out of ST, with Triolo seeing PT as our IF Utility Player which will include time at all 4 IF positions. Another name to be added will be Edward Olivares in RF; Joe will primarily be a platooning RH hitting 1B.
If I’m a betting man, one of Peguero, Gonzales, Bae, or Triolo will be traded in the very near future. Also, having both Joe and Tellez in the same lineup makes zero sense as they’re oppo-platoons. Oliveras has splits but nothing like Joe, Tellez, or Suwinski. Oliveras will likely be the starting right fielder. And lastly, that rotation 🤮
Doubt it will be triolo. But otherwise i agree
I agree with all of that and also think Roansy starts with a rotation spot mainly because he’s out of options. QP starts the year in Indy