With the Counsell move in the off-season, the Cubs and Brewers had new managers this year. The Reds have fired Bell and Marmol is on the hot seat. By all normal baseball measures, Shelton should be fired meaning all the NL Central teams should have managers with one year or less tenure. Fascinating!
My argument with Cherington and Shelton (and always with Nutting) is that the bottom line for MLB teams is the win-loss record. Success should be measured by that line. Professional athletes should be playing to win. With only 30 GM and MGR openings every year, there should be at least a couple good candidates willing to take the reigns, particularly with some intriguing talent on board. Maybe a new "Whiteyball" guy or a Leyland-type or someone who can actually get modern players to play team ball. I personally will be disappointed with the status quo if there is yet again no accountability. It's too bad this owner doesn't publicly show any moxie or desire to actually want a competitive team. You'd think he could increase his investment with a better product on the field.
I'm not really one to get involved in the front office shenanigans, but I believe they will clean house.
A good GM with a full off-season should have no problem with getting this team in real contention for '25.
Cruz & Skenes are animals - Cruz coming back from the broken leg, struggled with this slash line in the 1st half - .246/.299/.439. 2nd half - .302/.378/.507. He plays plus defense and hits like he did in the 2nd half, he's a 7-war player getting MVP votes.
Skenes is the best pitcher on the planet and will be even better next year. He could also post up a 6-7 war season as well.
There's a foundation in place, get someone in here to finish the job.
In the event that happens, I’m optimistic they can get things on the right track with the right hire. They have the guts of an organization in place. The execution has just been horribly off thus far.
So David Bell has a .473 W/L% and three winning seasons out of six, and he's gone. Shelton has a .415 W/L% and never comes closer than ten games to .500, and he's safe.
Is he safe? I’d have to think they at least fire the manager here.
Still. Your point is valid. They aren’t even waiting to the end of the season for accountability. If we had accountability, and they were truly serious about winning this year, you’re definitely firing Shelton back in early August.
It's BC trying like hell to keep his "puppet manager" in place rather than turning it over to a person who knows what it takes to win. I like Kelly and think he was as loyal as he could be and probably choked at some of the moves being made, but that was his job as the bench coach to support the Manager. We need some hard-nosed baseball influence at the helm! There is a solid core that needs direction.
I disagree again in your Kelly support. IMO if all a bench coach is supposed to do is support the manager then hire their wife or mom. A bench coach should be addressing issues in the field and offering options before and after games with sound logic / data to support it. You see managers and bench coaches discussing things all the time. If he thought his job was to just agree then I would not want him as manager.
One thing Ben must like about Shelton is that he never hints at a lack of talent and instead blames execution as if his GM provided the right players, they just need to play better.
Lots of big decisions to make during this off-season. I know there are 6 very meaningless games remaining in this season, but it would be nice to see some signs of life from the front office. Wake them up, it's time for them to go to work:
1. Derek Shelton and Andy Haines need to be terminated,
2. Install Don Kelly as the Manager with at least a 3 or 4 year contract,
3. Decide in the first two weeks whether we are going to pick up the $7.5 mil second year of IKF's contract - I vote NO,
4. Decide in the first two weeks what kind of infield we want in 2025. First, which Nick do we want to keep? I vote Yorke. Which SS/MI do we want? I vote Peguero. Jared Triolo stays as Util IF/1B. Endy
1B/C. Where is Hayes physically? If we need IF insurance at AAA - Williams.
5. What type of OF do we want in 2025? Reynolds and Cruz of course. BDLC was a decent hitter in the Miami lineup, but has been a complete bust for the Pirates.
"1. Derek Shelton and Andy Haines need to be terminated,"
Can we send that terminator back in time?
"2. Install Don Kelly as the Manager with at least a 3 or 4 year contract,"
What exactly is the fascination with Kelly? Just that he's not Shelton? I want somebody with no known association to the clown show they've been running for five years.
"3. Decide in the first two weeks whether we are going to pick up the $7.5 mil second year of IKF's contract - I vote NO,"
It'd have to be traded and his post-trade collapse probably removed any chance of a team picking all that up. Nutwit would probably have to pay half of it. I'm OK with IKF as a backup. He's not as bad as he's been since the trade.
"4. Decide in the first two weeks what kind of infield we want in 2025. First, which Nick do we want to keep? I vote Yorke. Which SS/MI do we want? I vote Peguero. Jared Triolo stays as Util IF/1B. Endy"
They need a starting SS. I would've given Peguero a shot during these meaningless last two months, but then I want to look for ways to make the team better and BC doesn't. I wouldn't, though, go into 2025 with Peguero written in to play SS. His #s in AAA are just OK. Offense has gone crazy there this year and his OPS is 34 points below league average. Triolo and Yorke should be in the mix in March, and Endy, Bart and Davis should all see time at 1B.
"1B/C. Where is Hayes physically? If we need IF insurance at AAA - Williams."
Williams should be removed from the 40-man. My guess is he moves on.
"5. What type of OF do we want in 2025? Reynolds and Cruz of course. BDLC was a decent hitter in the Miami lineup, but has been a complete bust for the Pirates."
BDLC was not a decent hitter in Miami. He was one of the worst-hitting regular OFs in MLB even then, and he's a bottom-level defender as well. He is not, repeat NOT, a decent-ish player who just hit a post-trade slump. He's awful, period.
If Cherington stays and he wants to replace Shelton, I question whether the pool of candidates will be much more attractive than someone like Shelton, himself. What promising candidate will want to hitch their future to a team that refuses to spend with a GM entering his sixth year with poor results? If the team doesn’t produce, there’s a good chance Cherington is let go. If so, there’s a very good chance the new GM will hire someone else to lead the team. I know there are only so many manager positions available in MLB, but if I’m a sought-after candidate, I’d look for something that offers more stability.
In that sense, if they want to move on from Shelton, Kelly might be their best option, assuming he’d be interested. He’s local, his kids are in school here playing baseball and at least he’s worked under someone like Leyland in the past. If I squint, I can see a scenario where things come together with the talent on this team and Kelly has the stuff to be a good big league manager.
It's funny. I'm convinced Cherington wanted the Pirates job because he knew the owner wouldn't care what he did as long as he kept the payroll low. But a new manager will come in knowing that Cherington's a micro-manager.
I vote for AJ Burnett. See how he'd take to being micro-managed.
Probably also wanted the job because so long as the GM had a non-baseball exec directly above him (Williams) the results would matter less than profitability. You can win with a modest, even low payroll, but you have to be excellent at your job.
If results don’t matter, you simply can do your best, keep payroll down and promise those above you (that don’t know enough) that the team is on the right path.
You can read an element of that in the whole “I want to build an organization from the ground up” rhetoric he parroted when he was first hired. It’s clear he thought he would have a level of autonomy he probably wouldn’t have had with the Mets and Giants, who were both interested in him as a candidate before he withdrew his name.
Keep in mind also his history in Boston. He signed a whole slew of 2nd and 3rd tier FAs and every one of them had a career year, and they won the WS. The next year, they all reverted to their norms and the Sox finished last, then last again. Ownership brought in Dombrowski over Cherington and Ben fled. He didn't want any accountability.
He’s 2 fWAR so far this year. Between the defensive versatility and solid defense itself I’d imagine teams would view him as a 1 WARish player and would take him in a plain old salary dump with no prospect attached from us. You might even get a lower level lotto ticket back in return.
IKF's career numbers are good. He obviously was not comfortable with the trade from Toronto to the Pirates. In his career he has always been a pretty good contact hitter - he comes to the Pirates and strikes out 12.7 times more than he Walks? 3 walks against 38 K's is not even trying! The Pirates cannot afford to keep somebody like that on the team. BDLC the same - 24 K's for every walk?
Two deadline acquisitions come to Pittsburgh, and immediately see their walk and strikeout rates skew to the worst rates of their careers. If Ben doesn't notice that as a cause for concern, we're about to be in for ANOTHER long season in 2025.
With the Counsell move in the off-season, the Cubs and Brewers had new managers this year. The Reds have fired Bell and Marmol is on the hot seat. By all normal baseball measures, Shelton should be fired meaning all the NL Central teams should have managers with one year or less tenure. Fascinating!
My argument with Cherington and Shelton (and always with Nutting) is that the bottom line for MLB teams is the win-loss record. Success should be measured by that line. Professional athletes should be playing to win. With only 30 GM and MGR openings every year, there should be at least a couple good candidates willing to take the reigns, particularly with some intriguing talent on board. Maybe a new "Whiteyball" guy or a Leyland-type or someone who can actually get modern players to play team ball. I personally will be disappointed with the status quo if there is yet again no accountability. It's too bad this owner doesn't publicly show any moxie or desire to actually want a competitive team. You'd think he could increase his investment with a better product on the field.
Wonder if the Pirates might call up Michael Burrows to make a spot start in Jones or Skenes place? Doesn’t really affect service time, options, etc.
All indications are that Jones, Skenes and Keller will have one more start. I could see Burrows called up as the 6th starter since he is on the 40
What am I thinking? You know it’s Jake Woodford coming back one more time…
Wonder if there is a record for most times added and removed from the 40 man? Jake Woodford might be pushing it lol
Who was that guy folks used to joke about, used his name as a verb for repeated dfa’s? I think he was a catcher.
I'm not really one to get involved in the front office shenanigans, but I believe they will clean house.
A good GM with a full off-season should have no problem with getting this team in real contention for '25.
Cruz & Skenes are animals - Cruz coming back from the broken leg, struggled with this slash line in the 1st half - .246/.299/.439. 2nd half - .302/.378/.507. He plays plus defense and hits like he did in the 2nd half, he's a 7-war player getting MVP votes.
Skenes is the best pitcher on the planet and will be even better next year. He could also post up a 6-7 war season as well.
There's a foundation in place, get someone in here to finish the job.
This is what you're looking at if you're a real GM. Cherington . . . ???
In the event that happens, I’m optimistic they can get things on the right track with the right hire. They have the guts of an organization in place. The execution has just been horribly off thus far.
I really hope youre right, weve got some building blocks that GMs dream of having
So David Bell has a .473 W/L% and three winning seasons out of six, and he's gone. Shelton has a .415 W/L% and never comes closer than ten games to .500, and he's safe.
Is he safe? I’d have to think they at least fire the manager here.
Still. Your point is valid. They aren’t even waiting to the end of the season for accountability. If we had accountability, and they were truly serious about winning this year, you’re definitely firing Shelton back in early August.
It's BC trying like hell to keep his "puppet manager" in place rather than turning it over to a person who knows what it takes to win. I like Kelly and think he was as loyal as he could be and probably choked at some of the moves being made, but that was his job as the bench coach to support the Manager. We need some hard-nosed baseball influence at the helm! There is a solid core that needs direction.
I disagree again in your Kelly support. IMO if all a bench coach is supposed to do is support the manager then hire their wife or mom. A bench coach should be addressing issues in the field and offering options before and after games with sound logic / data to support it. You see managers and bench coaches discussing things all the time. If he thought his job was to just agree then I would not want him as manager.
One thing Ben must like about Shelton is that he never hints at a lack of talent and instead blames execution as if his GM provided the right players, they just need to play better.
If they only swung at better pitches.
I mean, yes, that is correct.
To the OP though… that is kind of a BC problem, even though Shelty doesn’t frame it that way.
Fair point!
Lots of big decisions to make during this off-season. I know there are 6 very meaningless games remaining in this season, but it would be nice to see some signs of life from the front office. Wake them up, it's time for them to go to work:
1. Derek Shelton and Andy Haines need to be terminated,
2. Install Don Kelly as the Manager with at least a 3 or 4 year contract,
3. Decide in the first two weeks whether we are going to pick up the $7.5 mil second year of IKF's contract - I vote NO,
4. Decide in the first two weeks what kind of infield we want in 2025. First, which Nick do we want to keep? I vote Yorke. Which SS/MI do we want? I vote Peguero. Jared Triolo stays as Util IF/1B. Endy
1B/C. Where is Hayes physically? If we need IF insurance at AAA - Williams.
5. What type of OF do we want in 2025? Reynolds and Cruz of course. BDLC was a decent hitter in the Miami lineup, but has been a complete bust for the Pirates.
"1. Derek Shelton and Andy Haines need to be terminated,"
Can we send that terminator back in time?
"2. Install Don Kelly as the Manager with at least a 3 or 4 year contract,"
What exactly is the fascination with Kelly? Just that he's not Shelton? I want somebody with no known association to the clown show they've been running for five years.
"3. Decide in the first two weeks whether we are going to pick up the $7.5 mil second year of IKF's contract - I vote NO,"
It'd have to be traded and his post-trade collapse probably removed any chance of a team picking all that up. Nutwit would probably have to pay half of it. I'm OK with IKF as a backup. He's not as bad as he's been since the trade.
"4. Decide in the first two weeks what kind of infield we want in 2025. First, which Nick do we want to keep? I vote Yorke. Which SS/MI do we want? I vote Peguero. Jared Triolo stays as Util IF/1B. Endy"
They need a starting SS. I would've given Peguero a shot during these meaningless last two months, but then I want to look for ways to make the team better and BC doesn't. I wouldn't, though, go into 2025 with Peguero written in to play SS. His #s in AAA are just OK. Offense has gone crazy there this year and his OPS is 34 points below league average. Triolo and Yorke should be in the mix in March, and Endy, Bart and Davis should all see time at 1B.
"1B/C. Where is Hayes physically? If we need IF insurance at AAA - Williams."
Williams should be removed from the 40-man. My guess is he moves on.
"5. What type of OF do we want in 2025? Reynolds and Cruz of course. BDLC was a decent hitter in the Miami lineup, but has been a complete bust for the Pirates."
BDLC was not a decent hitter in Miami. He was one of the worst-hitting regular OFs in MLB even then, and he's a bottom-level defender as well. He is not, repeat NOT, a decent-ish player who just hit a post-trade slump. He's awful, period.
This is spot on and all points IMO.
If Cherington stays and he wants to replace Shelton, I question whether the pool of candidates will be much more attractive than someone like Shelton, himself. What promising candidate will want to hitch their future to a team that refuses to spend with a GM entering his sixth year with poor results? If the team doesn’t produce, there’s a good chance Cherington is let go. If so, there’s a very good chance the new GM will hire someone else to lead the team. I know there are only so many manager positions available in MLB, but if I’m a sought-after candidate, I’d look for something that offers more stability.
In that sense, if they want to move on from Shelton, Kelly might be their best option, assuming he’d be interested. He’s local, his kids are in school here playing baseball and at least he’s worked under someone like Leyland in the past. If I squint, I can see a scenario where things come together with the talent on this team and Kelly has the stuff to be a good big league manager.
It's funny. I'm convinced Cherington wanted the Pirates job because he knew the owner wouldn't care what he did as long as he kept the payroll low. But a new manager will come in knowing that Cherington's a micro-manager.
I vote for AJ Burnett. See how he'd take to being micro-managed.
Probably also wanted the job because so long as the GM had a non-baseball exec directly above him (Williams) the results would matter less than profitability. You can win with a modest, even low payroll, but you have to be excellent at your job.
If results don’t matter, you simply can do your best, keep payroll down and promise those above you (that don’t know enough) that the team is on the right path.
You can read an element of that in the whole “I want to build an organization from the ground up” rhetoric he parroted when he was first hired. It’s clear he thought he would have a level of autonomy he probably wouldn’t have had with the Mets and Giants, who were both interested in him as a candidate before he withdrew his name.
Keep in mind also his history in Boston. He signed a whole slew of 2nd and 3rd tier FAs and every one of them had a career year, and they won the WS. The next year, they all reverted to their norms and the Sox finished last, then last again. Ownership brought in Dombrowski over Cherington and Ben fled. He didn't want any accountability.
IKF´s contract in 2025 is guarenteed
Could always trade him though.
which prospect would you like to give up to dump his salary?
Reese McGuire.
You'd probably also have to add Harold Ramirez...and a glove compartment sized box of tissues...
He’s 2 fWAR so far this year. Between the defensive versatility and solid defense itself I’d imagine teams would view him as a 1 WARish player and would take him in a plain old salary dump with no prospect attached from us. You might even get a lower level lotto ticket back in return.
IKF's career numbers are good. He obviously was not comfortable with the trade from Toronto to the Pirates. In his career he has always been a pretty good contact hitter - he comes to the Pirates and strikes out 12.7 times more than he Walks? 3 walks against 38 K's is not even trying! The Pirates cannot afford to keep somebody like that on the team. BDLC the same - 24 K's for every walk?
Two deadline acquisitions come to Pittsburgh, and immediately see their walk and strikeout rates skew to the worst rates of their careers. If Ben doesn't notice that as a cause for concern, we're about to be in for ANOTHER long season in 2025.
What, specifically, are you implying the Pirates have instructed each player to do differently?
Do you think they're telling them to swing at worse pitches?
Have they at all changed their swings?
Are we going to spend all winter rehashing vapid talking points?
He notices he just doesn't DO.