Just went to Baseball Reference to check out the game log of Bob Gibson's insanely great 1968 season where he only went 22-9 despite having an ERA of 1.12. That season he had losses where the scores were: 3-2, 1-0, 3-2, 3-1 (CG), 2-0, 1-0 (9,2 innings) and 3-2. Amazingly that was a team that won 97 games and lost to the Tigers in the World Series, yet they still failed to win 6 games where Gibson was outstanding. He should have??? approached 30 wins that season, and more realistically should have been 26-5 or something like that.
It's demoralizing because the problem is not just the offense. The horrible offense covered up all the other problems on the team that are now emerging. Everything is a problem that does not involve a handful of players: Falter, Keller, Heaney, Skenes, Cruz, Bednar, and Santana.
they're *really* close. toe to toe with division leaders while at the same time feeling an insurmountable distance away. the best .3something winning percentage team I've ever seen.
The only thing that makes them look close is that they have 3 starting pitchers having career years and Paul Skenes. Everything else is miles apart. It shows the importance of starting pitching. The Pirates starters literally keep them in every, single game for 6 or 7 innings. However, the other 21 roster spots are so below par that they can only win 1 of every 3 games that the starting pitchers have kept them in.
So, another way of looking at them is: they are an awful team that looks much better than they are because of the 4 starters.
Our great teams of NH era led us to that feeling NMR, we just assumed any decent start ended with us getting a couple runs and then hughes / Soria / Watson / Melancon and hugs... fun times, werent they🤷♂️
For me, it feels like we have a short window of "Skenes" time. To watch him pitch as well as he has and not score runs, makes me feel like we are getting closer to the expiration date with nothing to show for it.
The single element of Cherington's recent failures that strikes everybody the most prominently is the spectacle of making no effort whatsoever to take advantage of Skenes and the other young pitchers. That even managed to attract attention from a national sports media that normally ignores the Pirates. It's a good thing if only because it might help get it across to Nutwit what an embarrassment he's making of himself.
The Skenes spectacle hasn't shown me a single thing about the idiot GM that I didn't already know, but it DOES seem to get the point across to more people. I actually did wonder, right from the start with Skenes, whether he might prove to be a surprise danger for Cherington and a blessing, for the wrong reason, for Pirate fans. That's exactly how it's working out.
That's where I keep coming back to the pen, specifically. Such an unfathomably unforced error that I border on paranoia.
Watch your aging closer fall apart last year, let your best reliever walk, do absolutely nothing to fill any semblance of hope at the back end, intentionally put one of your few productive relievers in the rotation, refuse to use your embarrassment of minor league riches in a productive manner...
Let me think too hard on this and I'm bound to arrive on intentionality.
The bullpen fiasco slides by because the hitting is more visible, and it shouldn’t. And it belies the notion that these boobs are some sort of pitching gurus.
Somewhat related, have you noticed that the commercial the Pirates are using to attract fans is all about PNC ("they come by land, they come by sea...") and other than a clip of Cutch doesn't promote the players at all? This is Williams' Pirates--who cares about the product on the field as long as we have the best ballpark in baseball?
No attempt to use Skenes to attract fans? No shots of Cruz having the hardest hit ball in the Statcast era and giving a bat to young kid? They even suck at marketing, but that was obvious from the bricks fiasco.
Seems like Travis Williams' only successful skill was having Sydney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin in their primes on the team that he happened to be marketing at the time.
Haven’t seen it but, yeah, sounds like the Invisible Man’s handiwork. It’s like Travis’ job is to see to the stuff Nuttin cares about and Cheringtool’s is just to be sure there’s a cheap team on the field 162 times a year so they can’t be kicked out of MLB.
Now that I have slept on it, I can more coolly think through last night's latest debacle. There is such a tragic element to this team. As Wehner noted after the game, they really did square up some balls last night but they couldn't get anything to fall. Cruz is looking better in Center but not hitting. He had the base stolen in the 8th but overslid the bag. Caratini had thrown out 1 runner all season and "caught" two in two innings, with the 2nd one coming because of Cruz' mistake. I think that was the 1st homer Santana had given up all year.
The lineup we put out there last night might be the best we can do. Horwitz and Nicky G will need to hit if that lineup is to do anything and we desperately need Davis to hit. He seems to be on the cusp of breaking through but still isn't getting it done with the regularity needed.
Glad to hear it. I was tempted to talk you off the ledge after last night’s outburst 😟😟. But I understand the monumental frustration of 3 plus decades of mostly bad baseball. At 60 years of age at least I remember when this franchise was among the best in the game
The three players you note are the top three examples of whether Cherington can identify hitting talent or whether the quote from an unnamed scout about Cherington being unable to distinguish Mickey Mantle from Mickey Mouse holds. You could throw in Canario, but being a waiver claim there was never much invested in acquiring him.
If Cherington has any justification for keeping his job, at least 2 out of Davis, Gonzales, and Horwitz need to show they can be above average hitters. It should be as simple as that--either by the end of the season at least 2 are above average or Cherington is out. Either seems a good outcome.
You may be correct that a club like the Pirates has no choice but to have excellence in the GM role, but that bar you've set looks to be *really* high in reality.
I was just looking at the Red Sox yesterday. They've got *five* Top 100-quality, grade-50 or better hitting prospects putting up below-average seasons. Casas, Rafaela, Mayer, Campbell...all kinda stink. The best of the bunch, Jaren Duran, is squeaking by at barely average. Failure rate in the league is insane.
The Orioles vaunted young bats, ouch. That young Reds offensive core from a few years back being held up by an unheralded top pitching staff.
Not my job to make excuses for Ben, who's earned everything coming to him, but damn is it bleak out there.
I don't know that they need "excellence" and you're right that a lot can look like it's going well and then you end up with the situations the Orioles and Reds are in. But, I think that six years into the job he has to be able to point to at least a couple of success stories in the lineup and those three (four if you include Canario) seem to offer the best hope. What little excitement we get from our lineup is coming from Huntington's (Cruz and Reynolds) or Nutting's (Cutch) acquisitions.
This is pretty spot on, though it ignores some of Cherington’s other head scratching moves like Pham, BDLC, Jalen Beeks, Tellez over just the past two years. I guess all GM’s swing and miss, though.
If the three you list (2 high draft picks, and a trade for a needed 1B) turn out to be above average hitters/players, then barring catastrophic injuries to key players, this is a very different looking team. I’m hopeful! Not because I care about Cherington’s job security, but because it’s probably the best way for us to avoid witnessing another tiresome rebuild.
I'm also hoping that at least a couple out of Canario, Davis, Gonzales, and Horwitz come through. I don't think Cherington is the right person for the job, but I'd be happy to change my mind if his acquisitions start performing better (I'll throw in Endy and Yorke and anyone else that he's acquired).
However, I don't think a new GM would mean another rebuild as I'd imagine they would come in seeing huge potential to build around our rotation. Strengthen the bullpen and add just a middle-of-the-order bat or two, and I think we'd be competitive. Heck, we'd be .500 under Kelly if we just had a good bullpen despite having a tough schedule during that time.
Jalen Beeks is like the second dude out of Arizona's pen this year. Rowdy Tellez and Opening Day starter on a top 5 offense in baseball. BDLC an Opening Day starter for a Braves club with a ton of injuries.
Those aren't unfathomable decisions for a GM with a bottom 5 payroll to work with. They're just also inherently risky without much upside. And for that reason they're cheap. The circle of life.
I'll admit to thinking the *timing* of Beeks was odd but figured it was with the intent of bringing him back this year, then he sucked. Probably should've anyways given what else they did.
Amazing how "glass half full" you are! Sometimes I need that and sometimes my cynical side kicks in. To consider this in the middle of such a flat offense is incredible!
I get the feel the Melly Mel not in TN is a fan of the game. Where I like the game but mainly only care about the Pirates and my fantasy team. Dudes my go to for any thing draft related in the message board. I'd hire him as a scout. I never would watch a game and realize someone took a poor route unless it was blatant. But our boy Mel does. College, professional, and I bet high school. And that is my June 4th ode to Melkel.
PS: not saying you aren't educated and passionate MB. Maybe I will own an ode to you one day.
Included in those carefully selected last 19 games was him coming back from tweaking his back, sitting for a week, then going 0 for 11 with 9 K’s while he got his timing back. One could just as easily say he’s slashing .234/.345/.596 in his last dozen games. Players, even good ones, are going to have rough stretches. Dude is on pace for over a 4 win season, even with the flaws.
I think if he was stuck between Judge and Goldschmidt, those numbers would be improved at least a little. Three games ago he got 2 hits. So the next game they walked him 3 times. Yesterday he looked lost again. It's hard to believe he still only has 1100 at bats under his belt.
He is probably never going to carry this line-up that can't score runs. However, if we ever get an average or better line-up, I think he will do some damage. Just my opinion.
Excellent to see the Pirates aggressively promote Wyatt Sanford to Bradenton. Now that he is at A, would it be time to promote Konnor Griffin to A+? Griffin is doing much better than expected at A with an 851 OPS in Apr, and a 908 OPS in May. On the defensive side he is fielding 1.000 in 73 Inn in CF and .984 in 253 Inn at SS - probably better than any other SS in the system!
Playing Griffin and Rivas together? Rivas is in his age 23 season and if he stays at A+, he was also a very capable 3B last year at A in 42 Games. The Pirates are weak at the SS position and some aggressive promotions could help solve that problem in the second half and in 2026.
If at A or A+, he is playing SS. He's the best we have in the system, and he is doing the hitting and fielding as a 19 year old. If he was 21 or 22 would anyone even question moving him to A+? Yes, he is still a kid and in his first exposure to professional baseball, but I would not let that stand in the way of a deserved promotion to the next level!
I want the Pirates to quit playing Griffin at short because he's a goddamn gold glover in CF and am happy letting him excel at a premium position while focusing his developmental attention on his bat.
-That just sucks that Pirate fans have to think that way about trading our stars away, despite how realistic it is. My idealistic way of thinking is that after the new revenue sharing agreement the Pirates will be able to keep Skenes and Cruz to have them playing along with Bubba, Griffin and Termarr. :)
-And not to try to change your way of thinking on Griffin still playing shortstop, but that is the only place they had him practice in spring. He was sensational there as well, with the range and arm strength. My eyes were glued there as he really stood out. Not to mention, he and Termarr were attached at the hip. Plus Griffin said he wants to keep playing both.
-This is one of the most fun disagreements that a Pirate fan can have. :)
Lamont Wade´s career ops in pnc is 1.028
Bat speed has fallen off a cliff this year according to MLBTR. Hard pass for me.
Just went to Baseball Reference to check out the game log of Bob Gibson's insanely great 1968 season where he only went 22-9 despite having an ERA of 1.12. That season he had losses where the scores were: 3-2, 1-0, 3-2, 3-1 (CG), 2-0, 1-0 (9,2 innings) and 3-2. Amazingly that was a team that won 97 games and lost to the Tigers in the World Series, yet they still failed to win 6 games where Gibson was outstanding. He should have??? approached 30 wins that season, and more realistically should have been 26-5 or something like that.
Didn't he have like 20 complete games in a row that year?
I’m sure it’s just recency bias but these losses somehow feel more demoralizing than getting blown out or losing a slug fest.
It's demoralizing because the problem is not just the offense. The horrible offense covered up all the other problems on the team that are now emerging. Everything is a problem that does not involve a handful of players: Falter, Keller, Heaney, Skenes, Cruz, Bednar, and Santana.
exactly, and yet...scoreboard.
they're *really* close. toe to toe with division leaders while at the same time feeling an insurmountable distance away. the best .3something winning percentage team I've ever seen.
The only thing that makes them look close is that they have 3 starting pitchers having career years and Paul Skenes. Everything else is miles apart. It shows the importance of starting pitching. The Pirates starters literally keep them in every, single game for 6 or 7 innings. However, the other 21 roster spots are so below par that they can only win 1 of every 3 games that the starting pitchers have kept them in.
So, another way of looking at them is: they are an awful team that looks much better than they are because of the 4 starters.
Sir, this is the definition of cherry picking.
Ah so take away a club's best part and they're not good...no fucking shit.
It’s Jeff Locke in reverse!
Our great teams of NH era led us to that feeling NMR, we just assumed any decent start ended with us getting a couple runs and then hughes / Soria / Watson / Melancon and hugs... fun times, werent they🤷♂️
Ted checkin in from waaaaaay out east. Hope all is well and sweltering like it's about to be in south Carolina
For me, it feels like we have a short window of "Skenes" time. To watch him pitch as well as he has and not score runs, makes me feel like we are getting closer to the expiration date with nothing to show for it.
The single element of Cherington's recent failures that strikes everybody the most prominently is the spectacle of making no effort whatsoever to take advantage of Skenes and the other young pitchers. That even managed to attract attention from a national sports media that normally ignores the Pirates. It's a good thing if only because it might help get it across to Nutwit what an embarrassment he's making of himself.
The Skenes spectacle hasn't shown me a single thing about the idiot GM that I didn't already know, but it DOES seem to get the point across to more people. I actually did wonder, right from the start with Skenes, whether he might prove to be a surprise danger for Cherington and a blessing, for the wrong reason, for Pirate fans. That's exactly how it's working out.
That's where I keep coming back to the pen, specifically. Such an unfathomably unforced error that I border on paranoia.
Watch your aging closer fall apart last year, let your best reliever walk, do absolutely nothing to fill any semblance of hope at the back end, intentionally put one of your few productive relievers in the rotation, refuse to use your embarrassment of minor league riches in a productive manner...
Let me think too hard on this and I'm bound to arrive on intentionality.
The bullpen fiasco slides by because the hitting is more visible, and it shouldn’t. And it belies the notion that these boobs are some sort of pitching gurus.
Somewhat related, have you noticed that the commercial the Pirates are using to attract fans is all about PNC ("they come by land, they come by sea...") and other than a clip of Cutch doesn't promote the players at all? This is Williams' Pirates--who cares about the product on the field as long as we have the best ballpark in baseball?
No attempt to use Skenes to attract fans? No shots of Cruz having the hardest hit ball in the Statcast era and giving a bat to young kid? They even suck at marketing, but that was obvious from the bricks fiasco.
Seems like Travis Williams' only successful skill was having Sydney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin in their primes on the team that he happened to be marketing at the time.
Haven’t seen it but, yeah, sounds like the Invisible Man’s handiwork. It’s like Travis’ job is to see to the stuff Nuttin cares about and Cheringtool’s is just to be sure there’s a cheap team on the field 162 times a year so they can’t be kicked out of MLB.
Now that I have slept on it, I can more coolly think through last night's latest debacle. There is such a tragic element to this team. As Wehner noted after the game, they really did square up some balls last night but they couldn't get anything to fall. Cruz is looking better in Center but not hitting. He had the base stolen in the 8th but overslid the bag. Caratini had thrown out 1 runner all season and "caught" two in two innings, with the 2nd one coming because of Cruz' mistake. I think that was the 1st homer Santana had given up all year.
The lineup we put out there last night might be the best we can do. Horwitz and Nicky G will need to hit if that lineup is to do anything and we desperately need Davis to hit. He seems to be on the cusp of breaking through but still isn't getting it done with the regularity needed.
Glad to hear it. I was tempted to talk you off the ledge after last night’s outburst 😟😟. But I understand the monumental frustration of 3 plus decades of mostly bad baseball. At 60 years of age at least I remember when this franchise was among the best in the game
The three players you note are the top three examples of whether Cherington can identify hitting talent or whether the quote from an unnamed scout about Cherington being unable to distinguish Mickey Mantle from Mickey Mouse holds. You could throw in Canario, but being a waiver claim there was never much invested in acquiring him.
If Cherington has any justification for keeping his job, at least 2 out of Davis, Gonzales, and Horwitz need to show they can be above average hitters. It should be as simple as that--either by the end of the season at least 2 are above average or Cherington is out. Either seems a good outcome.
You may be correct that a club like the Pirates has no choice but to have excellence in the GM role, but that bar you've set looks to be *really* high in reality.
I was just looking at the Red Sox yesterday. They've got *five* Top 100-quality, grade-50 or better hitting prospects putting up below-average seasons. Casas, Rafaela, Mayer, Campbell...all kinda stink. The best of the bunch, Jaren Duran, is squeaking by at barely average. Failure rate in the league is insane.
The Orioles vaunted young bats, ouch. That young Reds offensive core from a few years back being held up by an unheralded top pitching staff.
Not my job to make excuses for Ben, who's earned everything coming to him, but damn is it bleak out there.
I don't know that they need "excellence" and you're right that a lot can look like it's going well and then you end up with the situations the Orioles and Reds are in. But, I think that six years into the job he has to be able to point to at least a couple of success stories in the lineup and those three (four if you include Canario) seem to offer the best hope. What little excitement we get from our lineup is coming from Huntington's (Cruz and Reynolds) or Nutting's (Cutch) acquisitions.
This is pretty spot on, though it ignores some of Cherington’s other head scratching moves like Pham, BDLC, Jalen Beeks, Tellez over just the past two years. I guess all GM’s swing and miss, though.
If the three you list (2 high draft picks, and a trade for a needed 1B) turn out to be above average hitters/players, then barring catastrophic injuries to key players, this is a very different looking team. I’m hopeful! Not because I care about Cherington’s job security, but because it’s probably the best way for us to avoid witnessing another tiresome rebuild.
I'm also hoping that at least a couple out of Canario, Davis, Gonzales, and Horwitz come through. I don't think Cherington is the right person for the job, but I'd be happy to change my mind if his acquisitions start performing better (I'll throw in Endy and Yorke and anyone else that he's acquired).
However, I don't think a new GM would mean another rebuild as I'd imagine they would come in seeing huge potential to build around our rotation. Strengthen the bullpen and add just a middle-of-the-order bat or two, and I think we'd be competitive. Heck, we'd be .500 under Kelly if we just had a good bullpen despite having a tough schedule during that time.
common denominator is these guys are cheap.
The quality between Whole Foods & Aldi is night and day.
If you don't have the $ to shop WF, you go to the bargain bins.
Leave Aldi’s out of this!
Harumph!
Bingo.
Jalen Beeks is like the second dude out of Arizona's pen this year. Rowdy Tellez and Opening Day starter on a top 5 offense in baseball. BDLC an Opening Day starter for a Braves club with a ton of injuries.
Those aren't unfathomable decisions for a GM with a bottom 5 payroll to work with. They're just also inherently risky without much upside. And for that reason they're cheap. The circle of life.
Not to mention, check out what he gave up and what they're doing...
Folks were livid he gave up Peralta and McAdoo.
I'll admit to thinking the *timing* of Beeks was odd but figured it was with the intent of bringing him back this year, then he sucked. Probably should've anyways given what else they did.
https://www.mlb.com/video/victor-caratini-flies-out-sharply-to-center-fielder-oneil-cruz?partnerId=web_video-playback-page_video-share
Cruz really covered some ground on the catch in right center. He was shaded to left field, after a couple choppy steps he took a good route.
Amazing how "glass half full" you are! Sometimes I need that and sometimes my cynical side kicks in. To consider this in the middle of such a flat offense is incredible!
I get the feel the Melly Mel not in TN is a fan of the game. Where I like the game but mainly only care about the Pirates and my fantasy team. Dudes my go to for any thing draft related in the message board. I'd hire him as a scout. I never would watch a game and realize someone took a poor route unless it was blatant. But our boy Mel does. College, professional, and I bet high school. And that is my June 4th ode to Melkel.
PS: not saying you aren't educated and passionate MB. Maybe I will own an ode to you one day.
Agree with all of this. I always start to pay attention to the names he mentions. Bunch of great minds here at the BOD squad
I agree. Mel in TN the Italian German I also really appreciate your posts. A fellow half full chap
Gotta try to find some positives. Cruz is looking better in center.
But now he is not hitting. We need the whole package working at the same time.
Over his last 19 games he is .186/.296/.725 and against lefties for the year 7-51.
Included in those carefully selected last 19 games was him coming back from tweaking his back, sitting for a week, then going 0 for 11 with 9 K’s while he got his timing back. One could just as easily say he’s slashing .234/.345/.596 in his last dozen games. Players, even good ones, are going to have rough stretches. Dude is on pace for over a 4 win season, even with the flaws.
The lefties are still a problem for him though.
I think if he was stuck between Judge and Goldschmidt, those numbers would be improved at least a little. Three games ago he got 2 hits. So the next game they walked him 3 times. Yesterday he looked lost again. It's hard to believe he still only has 1100 at bats under his belt.
He is probably never going to carry this line-up that can't score runs. However, if we ever get an average or better line-up, I think he will do some damage. Just my opinion.
It’s shocking that with more time out there he’s looked better!
No you sound like Cherington with this time thing lol
Excellent to see the Pirates aggressively promote Wyatt Sanford to Bradenton. Now that he is at A, would it be time to promote Konnor Griffin to A+? Griffin is doing much better than expected at A with an 851 OPS in Apr, and a 908 OPS in May. On the defensive side he is fielding 1.000 in 73 Inn in CF and .984 in 253 Inn at SS - probably better than any other SS in the system!
Playing Griffin and Rivas together? Rivas is in his age 23 season and if he stays at A+, he was also a very capable 3B last year at A in 42 Games. The Pirates are weak at the SS position and some aggressive promotions could help solve that problem in the second half and in 2026.
Yes, I don't want the Pirates to quit playing Griffin at short because we advanced someone to low A.
If at A or A+, he is playing SS. He's the best we have in the system, and he is doing the hitting and fielding as a 19 year old. If he was 21 or 22 would anyone even question moving him to A+? Yes, he is still a kid and in his first exposure to professional baseball, but I would not let that stand in the way of a deserved promotion to the next level!
I want the Pirates to quit playing Griffin at short because he's a goddamn gold glover in CF and am happy letting him excel at a premium position while focusing his developmental attention on his bat.
Are you figuring Cruz to be gone by the time Griffin comes up? or do you want to move Cruz. Not arguing, just asking.
Griffin debuts mid-'27, Cruz traded prior to his contract year in '28.
-That just sucks that Pirate fans have to think that way about trading our stars away, despite how realistic it is. My idealistic way of thinking is that after the new revenue sharing agreement the Pirates will be able to keep Skenes and Cruz to have them playing along with Bubba, Griffin and Termarr. :)
-And not to try to change your way of thinking on Griffin still playing shortstop, but that is the only place they had him practice in spring. He was sensational there as well, with the range and arm strength. My eyes were glued there as he really stood out. Not to mention, he and Termarr were attached at the hip. Plus Griffin said he wants to keep playing both.
-This is one of the most fun disagreements that a Pirate fan can have. :)
Wyatt Sanford announced his presence with authority!