Not fair with the 2B battle next year. NG was BC's first pick as the GM of the Pirates. If it was all on paper, Yorke is the better player. He hit very well for a 22 year old at AAA - between Boston and the Pirates he had 297 AB at AAA, 99 hits (.333 BA), 25 doubles, 0 triples, 8 HR, 45 RBI, 42 BB/65 K. NG is the better fielder at 2B, but Yorke is only going to get better at the plate and in the field. Tough decision, but he starts at 2B on my Pirate team in 2025. NG has trade value - use it.
I think we are jumping the gun on Yorke > Nick. He very well may be! But assuming he will get better at the plate by facing MLB pitchers could be a stretch. And are we sure his defense will get better, his scouting reports on defense have never been optimistic. I just don't want to get all caught up in what is currently a very hot hitter who deserves to show what he can do. While Nick has settled into a not so hot second half of the season, he too came up red hot and produced good numbers. I'm just proposing we let it play out a bit before we draw conclusions. Your final stmt I agree, however if 'we' are ready to trade Nick because Yorke has beaten him out, we may need to assume other teams feel the same.. ie. don't expect a long line wanting to trade for Nick as a starting 2B.
I've been thinking something similar. With the overload of right handed hitting 2nd basemen.
I think they would need to target a close but risky player preferably lefty hitting. Someone like Hassell from the Nats or Watson from Cleveland. Not saying specifically these players, that applies to Gonzales as well. Just an area of abundance for an area lacking on the farm or in the majors.
Good idea on the 2B battle. Call it the Covid Keystone Classic?
Insert Jerry Seinfeld “that’s a shame,” gif at the Crads’ plight. Gorman appears to be one of those guys who tapdanced on that perilous 30% K line and then crossed the border. Walker seems all jacked up at the plate, and he truly looks like an infielder playing the outfield. Was he rushed a bit? Carlson doesn’t seem to have ever gotten back to previous levels with his injuries and they just gave up on him.
Run BDLC does have serious pop, but I wouldn’t be upset if they gave him the DFA pink slip.
Obviously just a formality, but I think we were officially eliminated from the playoffs last night. We join the Rockies, Marlins, and Nationals.
Now with 80 losses, we're close to another milestone. But, we're 8-8 in September. Of course we don't play the Marlins again and do play the Brewers and Yankees, but for those in support of Shelton we can still have that "strong finish" that Kovacevic wrote was necessary for Shelton to keep his job. A winning month would be nice, but we're 1-4 since the Marlins' series with only 8 runs scored, so not trending in the right direction.
Honestly, I will guess the majority really don't care if Shelton stays or goes. I think most understand that an MLB manager doesn't really move the needle all that much.
I don't think it gets at the root of our problems, so I won't feel strongly about whatever decision they make. As WTM suggests, it would be encouraging to know that some jobs are on the line when they fall far short of goals. Perhaps that would send the right message about there actually being some urgency.
My sense is that the gap between the best and worst managers is a handful of games and the gap between the best and average is a few games, and I think Shelton is below average but not the worst. So, imo, maybe an impact of ~2-3 games which obviously doesn't matter when you're in last but if we were in the situation that the Dbacks or Twins or Tigers are in...
Here’s my thinking. I fully give Sheltie a pass for the first couple years. He stepped into a hornet’s nest. But after a few seasons of not seeing marked improvements in the standings and no prior experience/success as an MLB manager, my sense is he’s not a good manager.
Wow, hard disagree here. Inconsequential? The manager is at the helm of the team. He dictates "culture", he runs game strategy, including pitching and bullpen moves, he promotes fundamentals even though these players are long past high school, he is willing to make difficult decisions that benefit the team, not that placate a veteran, he must be a master psychologist, and understand each player's personality, and be a strong leader in the bad times and the good times. But perhaps equally important, he must hire the correct coaching staff which is instrumental into putting a winning product between the white lines. It's his job with the coaches to maximize player performance......yes they should have a significant effect on whether a guy is Replacement Level or is capable of improvement, ie. getting the best out of each player's abilities. Shelton should absolutely be let go along with numerous coaches. The play on the field is routinely sub-par.
People struggle to think of Managers in the wins above replacement manner.
Like, yes, compared to some jackass off the street a competent big league manager is very consequential.
But the bar to even get one of these 30 jobs is astonishingly high.
Every big league manager - including Derek Shelton - knows more about baseball than everyone who has every commented on a silly little fan blog. Replacement level is far higher than certain fans can or are willing to accept, which means the consequence of any individual manager is inherently going to be relatively low.
To date, for the 5 years of BC/DS the Pirates are 289 - 408 for a .415 Winning Percentage. Not positive, but I think this could be the worst 5 year period since the Pirates of the 1950's. I commented the other day that after having two Rookies come in and be strong winners in our Rotation, and Falter and Ortiz also very strong, and Cruz back strong offensively from missing almost all of last year, we have managed to lose ground from where we finished in 2023 in relation to the teams who will make the WC in 2024.
One or both of these buffoons need to be gone now or shortly after the season ends. Nutting would rather not have to work, so BC will probably stay unless he falls on his sword and refuses to terminate Shelton. No, he's not that stupid.
Indy losing to St Paul ends the possibility of making the playoffs. Can we find a way to get Peguero and Suwinski to the Pirates to finish the season? It's time to start thinking about 2025 and getting last looks at players who will either start for the Pirates or be included as trade bait in the off-season. Lots of bodies that will not be called upon to do much in the last 11 games of the MLB season, and it will give those two the opportunity for a few AB's at the MLB level.
-Nick Yorke ladies and gents. Battle of 2020 first rounders for the second base position next year?
-Crads losing their magic with Gorman, Carlson, and Walker in one season is still pretty wild. Hitting is impossibly hard.
-Did not have BDLC reaching 20 dingers before Oneil on my bingo card.
Not fair with the 2B battle next year. NG was BC's first pick as the GM of the Pirates. If it was all on paper, Yorke is the better player. He hit very well for a 22 year old at AAA - between Boston and the Pirates he had 297 AB at AAA, 99 hits (.333 BA), 25 doubles, 0 triples, 8 HR, 45 RBI, 42 BB/65 K. NG is the better fielder at 2B, but Yorke is only going to get better at the plate and in the field. Tough decision, but he starts at 2B on my Pirate team in 2025. NG has trade value - use it.
I think we are jumping the gun on Yorke > Nick. He very well may be! But assuming he will get better at the plate by facing MLB pitchers could be a stretch. And are we sure his defense will get better, his scouting reports on defense have never been optimistic. I just don't want to get all caught up in what is currently a very hot hitter who deserves to show what he can do. While Nick has settled into a not so hot second half of the season, he too came up red hot and produced good numbers. I'm just proposing we let it play out a bit before we draw conclusions. Your final stmt I agree, however if 'we' are ready to trade Nick because Yorke has beaten him out, we may need to assume other teams feel the same.. ie. don't expect a long line wanting to trade for Nick as a starting 2B.
I've been thinking something similar. With the overload of right handed hitting 2nd basemen.
I think they would need to target a close but risky player preferably lefty hitting. Someone like Hassell from the Nats or Watson from Cleveland. Not saying specifically these players, that applies to Gonzales as well. Just an area of abundance for an area lacking on the farm or in the majors.
Good idea on the 2B battle. Call it the Covid Keystone Classic?
Insert Jerry Seinfeld “that’s a shame,” gif at the Crads’ plight. Gorman appears to be one of those guys who tapdanced on that perilous 30% K line and then crossed the border. Walker seems all jacked up at the plate, and he truly looks like an infielder playing the outfield. Was he rushed a bit? Carlson doesn’t seem to have ever gotten back to previous levels with his injuries and they just gave up on him.
Run BDLC does have serious pop, but I wouldn’t be upset if they gave him the DFA pink slip.
Definitely feels like Walker got caught up in the promote-every-prospect-immediately zeitgeist that briefly took over baseball.
An easy mistake, dude looks old enough to draw social security. Like Brennan Malone!
He's the oldest looking 22-year-old I've seen since Derek Bell.
Albert Pujols would like to share his High School Graduation pic.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2019/10/01/Pirates-Jason-Kendall-manager-Clint-Hurdle-Neal-Huntington-catcher-job-search-MLB/stories/201910010147
I can't read this (and will never give the PG money to do so), but hard pass on Jason Kendall.
need someone to fire it up - Kendall is the man for the job
Obviously just a formality, but I think we were officially eliminated from the playoffs last night. We join the Rockies, Marlins, and Nationals.
Now with 80 losses, we're close to another milestone. But, we're 8-8 in September. Of course we don't play the Marlins again and do play the Brewers and Yankees, but for those in support of Shelton we can still have that "strong finish" that Kovacevic wrote was necessary for Shelton to keep his job. A winning month would be nice, but we're 1-4 since the Marlins' series with only 8 runs scored, so not trending in the right direction.
Gotta keep up that Tankathon with Toronto and Texas playing each other lol
Disgrace for Jace!
Honestly, I will guess the majority really don't care if Shelton stays or goes. I think most understand that an MLB manager doesn't really move the needle all that much.
I don't think it gets at the root of our problems, so I won't feel strongly about whatever decision they make. As WTM suggests, it would be encouraging to know that some jobs are on the line when they fall far short of goals. Perhaps that would send the right message about there actually being some urgency.
My sense is that the gap between the best and worst managers is a handful of games and the gap between the best and average is a few games, and I think Shelton is below average but not the worst. So, imo, maybe an impact of ~2-3 games which obviously doesn't matter when you're in last but if we were in the situation that the Dbacks or Twins or Tigers are in...
Oh, I can agree with this. I'd still guess he is more average than below average.
If he had better players, he'd be a good manager.
It's not about the x's and o's, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's.
Or…can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
well said.
See below. Leyland has become a humble old man and downplays his impact. That's classy and professional. But it just ain't true.
Please, oh please, remind me what happened to Jimmy Leyland's record between '93 and '96...
We don’t talk about that time of Jimmy’s career…
Or let's think a bit about those pesky Royals just in town.
One pace for a 30 (!) game improvement, under the same manager! But a very different roster.
How many of those 30 wins do you honestly believe were due to him becoming a better manager?
I care if Sheltie goes, and he should be terminated. Managers have impact. Someone needs to lead the team daily and make decisions during the game.
okay but execution seems harsh.
Here’s my thinking. I fully give Sheltie a pass for the first couple years. He stepped into a hornet’s nest. But after a few seasons of not seeing marked improvements in the standings and no prior experience/success as an MLB manager, my sense is he’s not a good manager.
At this point, it'd mainly just be a sliver of evidence that somebody in authority might give a teeny weeny shit.
If they fire him, it wouldn't bother me in the least
If they retained him, it wouldn't bother me in the least.
If you made a list of problems with the Pittsburgh Pirates, Shelton would be way down that list. He's essentially a puppet. He's inconsequential.
Wow, hard disagree here. Inconsequential? The manager is at the helm of the team. He dictates "culture", he runs game strategy, including pitching and bullpen moves, he promotes fundamentals even though these players are long past high school, he is willing to make difficult decisions that benefit the team, not that placate a veteran, he must be a master psychologist, and understand each player's personality, and be a strong leader in the bad times and the good times. But perhaps equally important, he must hire the correct coaching staff which is instrumental into putting a winning product between the white lines. It's his job with the coaches to maximize player performance......yes they should have a significant effect on whether a guy is Replacement Level or is capable of improvement, ie. getting the best out of each player's abilities. Shelton should absolutely be let go along with numerous coaches. The play on the field is routinely sub-par.
Most of the stuff you're suggesting they go over as a team.
Pitching and BP moves are made in production meetings with Meccage and Marin.
Knowing how to deal with different personalities is coaching 101. You learn this coaching little league.
Most of the stuff is delegated down or controlled from up top. Last I heard the General Manager hires coaches.
At the end of the day, your modern baseball manager is just a puppet and yes man.
People struggle to think of Managers in the wins above replacement manner.
Like, yes, compared to some jackass off the street a competent big league manager is very consequential.
But the bar to even get one of these 30 jobs is astonishingly high.
Every big league manager - including Derek Shelton - knows more about baseball than everyone who has every commented on a silly little fan blog. Replacement level is far higher than certain fans can or are willing to accept, which means the consequence of any individual manager is inherently going to be relatively low.
To date, for the 5 years of BC/DS the Pirates are 289 - 408 for a .415 Winning Percentage. Not positive, but I think this could be the worst 5 year period since the Pirates of the 1950's. I commented the other day that after having two Rookies come in and be strong winners in our Rotation, and Falter and Ortiz also very strong, and Cruz back strong offensively from missing almost all of last year, we have managed to lose ground from where we finished in 2023 in relation to the teams who will make the WC in 2024.
One or both of these buffoons need to be gone now or shortly after the season ends. Nutting would rather not have to work, so BC will probably stay unless he falls on his sword and refuses to terminate Shelton. No, he's not that stupid.
Both need to go. Five years and very little progress. Should be an easy decision.
Indy losing to St Paul ends the possibility of making the playoffs. Can we find a way to get Peguero and Suwinski to the Pirates to finish the season? It's time to start thinking about 2025 and getting last looks at players who will either start for the Pirates or be included as trade bait in the off-season. Lots of bodies that will not be called upon to do much in the last 11 games of the MLB season, and it will give those two the opportunity for a few AB's at the MLB level.
I am Groot.