Crochet still with only two years of control until FA? So the Pirates would get 1.5 years? This year the Pirates finished 13th overall in pitching (FG) with 2 or 3 more SP's coming in 2025? Do the Pirates need Crochet? Ashcraft would be that possible 3rd SP along with Chandler and Harrington. Give me a young Middle of the Order hitter with 4 or 5 years of control - we are the Pirates after all. What's the projected get for Crochet in his 2nd year of Arb?
Less than $3 million, the idea would be to extend him 2, preferably 3 years with an option at an AAV around $17 to $18 million.
4 year for $70 million with the buyout or $90 million with the option picked up.
So his 2 arbitration years he's pretty much maxes out at $13 million. His 3 years of free agency would be just under $26 million. It'd be spread out if not front loaded.
I'd be more inclined on Lowe than Yandy (only because we are so right hand heavy). I like them both and they have reasonable options through 2026. I hate the idea of Cherington trading with the Rays though, they probably know our talent better than Cherington does.
I’d do that trade for Crochet, but I’m not sure that gets it done for Chicago at all. Although maybe it does, Chris Getz doesn’t seem like the brightest bulb.
Maybe, I think Ortiz probably has more value than most. I don't really look at the baseball trade value site, they probably have Soderstrom at a higher value but Ortiz has produced in the majors and they both have the same amount of control left.
I lean to yes on the first one, and don't know enough about Soderstrom and Maurico to comment on the other two. Griffin sounds very exciting, but so have a lot of HS players at the time of the draft--I'd probably swap the high risk/high reward of Griffin for the chance of a truly elite rotation for the next two years. Maybe I'd ask for a lottery ticket in addition to Crochet, someone along the lines of a Cruz, Severino, or Seuro that can often be had for a rental reliever.
Ronny Mauricio is a shorter 6'3" switch hitting, better fielding, not as good a hitter O'Neil Cruz. He had an ACL in January and is blocked at SS with the Mets.
Tyler Soderstrom is a left hand power hitting 1st base/catcher for the A's who has Nick Kurtz on the fast track. He really isn't a catcher though.
I'd want to extend Crochet if they would make the trade.
It really does on Mauricio, he turns 24 in April. Soderstrom is about to turn 23.
Crochet turns 26 in June. Those 3 would be my primary targets on the trade market. The pirates have the combination of players and prospects to get a couple of them if not all 3.
I'm a believer in improving a strength and Crochet would make the front of the rotation arguably the best in the majors.
Soderstrom would potentially fill a major need.
Mauricio is a guy I just really like and think he has superstar potential.
But the FO holds the cards and dictates whether or not there is a “show.” Watching a 6-7 WAR pitcher is mostly irrelevant to me if it isn’t on a playoff team. I love Nolan Ryan, and I’m sure his starts on the 1974 California Angels were fun to watch, but I bet if you asked California Angels fans of that era, that probably wasn’t a fun team to watch overall.
He was pretty good that year too. Led the team with 20 home runs. And that was good enough for a 146 OPS+! Always amazing when you look at old stats and see how much less power driven the game was.
It is. That period was also odd in that much of baseball’s offensive talent was concentrated in the NL. Of the top 10 in wRC+, only three were in the AL. Which probably sheds some light as to why the DH was adopted in the first place.
>75% of your posts is you trying to show how smart you are and how dumb the Pirates FO is. You're certainly not the only one, and it appears it's gaining momentum. This place is slowly becoming X.
It's much better when ppl just talk ball, instead of trying to be the smartest guy in the room.
75% of my posts are actually expressing concerns that I won’t get to see more than a few years of competitive baseball in my lifetime. If mediocrity and a lack of consequences for poor performance is acceptable to you that’s ok, you’re entitled to that opinion and to express it. But, 75% of your responses to me consist of you complaining that you don’t like what I write. I don’t engage similarly with you. If I agree with you I say so, if I disagree with you I say so. And provide solid fact based reasons for both. But, if you really find what I write THAT offensive, the block button is always there.
Your stance isn't going to do anything. It's not that I don't like what you post, it just doesn't serve any purpose. It's not talking ball, it's just constant whining.
I just don't understand why you and the handful of others don't go to X and complain like they do, instead of hijacking this place.
I have about as much interest in discussing shitty baseball from a neutral standpoint as you have in talking about the front office. So maybe the solution is we scroll on by each others posts?
Under the PPI rules from the most recent CBA, what do these awards mean for Skenes and the Pirates? If he had been on the roster all year, the Pirates get a draft pick, but since he came up in May he doesn't get a full year of service credit and the Pirates don't get the draft pick? I guess I don't understand the rule....
Bringing Skenes up when they did was the worst decision for the franchise and best for the player. The team lost a year of control with no ppi compensation ever. The player gets a full year of service while playing less than 172 days at the mlb level and will enter free agency a year early.
Skenes now has 2 more pre-arbitration years followed by 3 years of arbitration.
I could see a future change in the ppi that could be the Skenes Holliday rule where a college draft pick is eligible for the ppi if they make their mlb debut 45 days prior to their 1 year draft anniversary. For a prep draft pick 45 days prior to their 2 year draft anniversary.
This is correct. And as a fan I’m not really interested in whether the player gets paid quicker, I’m interested in what’s best for the organization. The best thing for the organization would’ve been to keep him and Jones down till the middle of June. If there’s rules/loopholes that small markets can exploit they should do so with impunity.
A rule based on how many years/months post-draft makes sense. So, it could be something like by the Super Two deadline the following year for a college draftee and within three years for a HS draftee.
Skenes has said that he's very happy the way the Pirates handled him, as he should be--they managed his innings so that he didn't need to be shut down while, obviously, giving him enough time to earn the full year of service. Maybe he'll reciprocate the favor by signing an extension for his first FA year. Of course it takes two to tango and I'd guess he's more willing than Nutting would be to pay him that ~$35-40MM for that extra year.
He would have had to have accrued 172 or more days of service in order to be eligible for a PPI pick, this year or any following year. So, I don't recall specifically off the top of my head, but he would have needed his contracted selected about 2 weeks into the season, which it was not.
Sounds like you understand the end result. It’s a pretty shitty situation for the pirates. In the spirit of the rule the pirates should get the pick, but by the letter of the rule the only thing they get is one less year of control over Skenes.
But did they honor the spirit of the rule? You can make a healthy argument that they tried to manipulate his service time to gain that extra year, and just did a crappy job of it. Unless I misunderstand the purpose of the rule, the point was to encourage teams to start deserving rookies in the majors at the beginning of the season, which they didn’t do.
we incessantly bitch any time there's an inkling of service time manipulation, then we bitch when they don't manipulate service time, thennnn we bitch when we assume they actually meant to manipulate service time but did it wrong.
Would you make the trade?
Crochet for Griffin, Ashcraft, Jebb, and Solometo.
Soderstrom for Ortiz and Brannigan
Mauricio for Oviedo
No Yes Yes. The upside on Griffin is just too high to package him in a deal this soon, I would definitely let him season for a bit.
Crochet still with only two years of control until FA? So the Pirates would get 1.5 years? This year the Pirates finished 13th overall in pitching (FG) with 2 or 3 more SP's coming in 2025? Do the Pirates need Crochet? Ashcraft would be that possible 3rd SP along with Chandler and Harrington. Give me a young Middle of the Order hitter with 4 or 5 years of control - we are the Pirates after all. What's the projected get for Crochet in his 2nd year of Arb?
It’s absurd to assume Ashcraft, who’s healthy 10 minutes a year, would be the equal of Crochet.
Less than $3 million, the idea would be to extend him 2, preferably 3 years with an option at an AAV around $17 to $18 million.
4 year for $70 million with the buyout or $90 million with the option picked up.
So his 2 arbitration years he's pretty much maxes out at $13 million. His 3 years of free agency would be just under $26 million. It'd be spread out if not front loaded.
No. Yes. Yes.
What about Brandon Lowe or the Yandy-Man from Tampa?
So another second baseman…
But a 2B who’s far better than anyone they currently have!
I'd be more inclined on Lowe than Yandy (only because we are so right hand heavy). I like them both and they have reasonable options through 2026. I hate the idea of Cherington trading with the Rays though, they probably know our talent better than Cherington does.
Honestly I like the idea of Lowe because it fits the timeline ok with TJ. Plus, Lowe is good.
I’d do that trade for Crochet, but I’m not sure that gets it done for Chicago at all. Although maybe it does, Chris Getz doesn’t seem like the brightest bulb.
I would do Soderstrom, but you would need to send more than Ortiz and Brannigan
Maybe, I think Ortiz probably has more value than most. I don't really look at the baseball trade value site, they probably have Soderstrom at a higher value but Ortiz has produced in the majors and they both have the same amount of control left.
I lean to yes on the first one, and don't know enough about Soderstrom and Maurico to comment on the other two. Griffin sounds very exciting, but so have a lot of HS players at the time of the draft--I'd probably swap the high risk/high reward of Griffin for the chance of a truly elite rotation for the next two years. Maybe I'd ask for a lottery ticket in addition to Crochet, someone along the lines of a Cruz, Severino, or Seuro that can often be had for a rental reliever.
Ronny Mauricio is a shorter 6'3" switch hitting, better fielding, not as good a hitter O'Neil Cruz. He had an ACL in January and is blocked at SS with the Mets.
Tyler Soderstrom is a left hand power hitting 1st base/catcher for the A's who has Nick Kurtz on the fast track. He really isn't a catcher though.
I'd want to extend Crochet if they would make the trade.
Man it feels like Mauricio has been around forever.
I'd do that Soderstrom trade in a heartbeat, even add Griffin to it.
Ronny Mo! I’d be for this trade, if only to make dated references to The Wire.
It really does on Mauricio, he turns 24 in April. Soderstrom is about to turn 23.
Crochet turns 26 in June. Those 3 would be my primary targets on the trade market. The pirates have the combination of players and prospects to get a couple of them if not all 3.
I'm a believer in improving a strength and Crochet would make the front of the rotation arguably the best in the majors.
Soderstrom would potentially fill a major need.
Mauricio is a guy I just really like and think he has superstar potential.
AL MVP and Cy Young seem obvious, as does NL RoY.
Sit back and enjoy the Paul Skenes show for as many years as he's a Pirate.
We're talking a 6-7 WAR animal.
Or you could go the other direction and worry about the FO and miss the Show.
But the FO holds the cards and dictates whether or not there is a “show.” Watching a 6-7 WAR pitcher is mostly irrelevant to me if it isn’t on a playoff team. I love Nolan Ryan, and I’m sure his starts on the 1974 California Angels were fun to watch, but I bet if you asked California Angels fans of that era, that probably wasn’t a fun team to watch overall.
I dunno man, they had Frank Robinson! Totally forgot he had a nomadic end to his career.
He was pretty good that year too. Led the team with 20 home runs. And that was good enough for a 146 OPS+! Always amazing when you look at old stats and see how much less power driven the game was.
It is. That period was also odd in that much of baseball’s offensive talent was concentrated in the NL. Of the top 10 in wRC+, only three were in the AL. Which probably sheds some light as to why the DH was adopted in the first place.
>75% of your posts is you trying to show how smart you are and how dumb the Pirates FO is. You're certainly not the only one, and it appears it's gaining momentum. This place is slowly becoming X.
It's much better when ppl just talk ball, instead of trying to be the smartest guy in the room.
75% of my posts are actually expressing concerns that I won’t get to see more than a few years of competitive baseball in my lifetime. If mediocrity and a lack of consequences for poor performance is acceptable to you that’s ok, you’re entitled to that opinion and to express it. But, 75% of your responses to me consist of you complaining that you don’t like what I write. I don’t engage similarly with you. If I agree with you I say so, if I disagree with you I say so. And provide solid fact based reasons for both. But, if you really find what I write THAT offensive, the block button is always there.
Your stance isn't going to do anything. It's not that I don't like what you post, it just doesn't serve any purpose. It's not talking ball, it's just constant whining.
I just don't understand why you and the handful of others don't go to X and complain like they do, instead of hijacking this place.
I have about as much interest in discussing shitty baseball from a neutral standpoint as you have in talking about the front office. So maybe the solution is we scroll on by each others posts?
or, you could stop being so insecure.
Why not both?
Yes, because the ultimate show will be if Skenes gets to pitch in the postseason and that's on the FO.
Yes, I'd like to watch Skenes and the team as a whole play some meaningful games down the stretch and into October.
Under the PPI rules from the most recent CBA, what do these awards mean for Skenes and the Pirates? If he had been on the roster all year, the Pirates get a draft pick, but since he came up in May he doesn't get a full year of service credit and the Pirates don't get the draft pick? I guess I don't understand the rule....
https://www.mlb.com/news/prospect-performance-incentive-ppi-eligible-players
Bringing Skenes up when they did was the worst decision for the franchise and best for the player. The team lost a year of control with no ppi compensation ever. The player gets a full year of service while playing less than 172 days at the mlb level and will enter free agency a year early.
Skenes now has 2 more pre-arbitration years followed by 3 years of arbitration.
I could see a future change in the ppi that could be the Skenes Holliday rule where a college draft pick is eligible for the ppi if they make their mlb debut 45 days prior to their 1 year draft anniversary. For a prep draft pick 45 days prior to their 2 year draft anniversary.
This is correct. And as a fan I’m not really interested in whether the player gets paid quicker, I’m interested in what’s best for the organization. The best thing for the organization would’ve been to keep him and Jones down till the middle of June. If there’s rules/loopholes that small markets can exploit they should do so with impunity.
impunity
yes
A rule based on how many years/months post-draft makes sense. So, it could be something like by the Super Two deadline the following year for a college draftee and within three years for a HS draftee.
Skenes has said that he's very happy the way the Pirates handled him, as he should be--they managed his innings so that he didn't need to be shut down while, obviously, giving him enough time to earn the full year of service. Maybe he'll reciprocate the favor by signing an extension for his first FA year. Of course it takes two to tango and I'd guess he's more willing than Nutting would be to pay him that ~$35-40MM for that extra year.
Hopefully they can extend Skenes.
He would have had to have accrued 172 or more days of service in order to be eligible for a PPI pick, this year or any following year. So, I don't recall specifically off the top of my head, but he would have needed his contracted selected about 2 weeks into the season, which it was not.
Sounds like you understand the end result. It’s a pretty shitty situation for the pirates. In the spirit of the rule the pirates should get the pick, but by the letter of the rule the only thing they get is one less year of control over Skenes.
But did they honor the spirit of the rule? You can make a healthy argument that they tried to manipulate his service time to gain that extra year, and just did a crappy job of it. Unless I misunderstand the purpose of the rule, the point was to encourage teams to start deserving rookies in the majors at the beginning of the season, which they didn’t do.
jesus
It's becoming more and more difficult to talk shop in here
we incessantly bitch any time there's an inkling of service time manipulation, then we bitch when they don't manipulate service time, thennnn we bitch when we assume they actually meant to manipulate service time but did it wrong.
I'm seeing a pretty clear theme here.
I don’t bitch about service time manipulation. 100% in support of it.
No matter what we bitch.
and don't forget me bitching about the bitchers!
Very prescient argument you make there.
2024 NL ROY and CY Young: Paul Skenes
2025 NL ROY and MVP: Sammy Siani
Siani is making a good push to be added to the 40 man.