At a high level I get Mark Maddeen's points but any comparison to other major sports is ridiculous... Steelers and Penguins compete in a totally different revenue model and we all know that. Should Ben spend more... zero argument from me, but the challenges of the Pittsburgh market will always AT SOME POINT be a factor.
Hold on a second. No one is saying that the Pirates should be spending money like the Dodgers but there is no reason why the team cannot have payrolls in the 120m to 150m range. Imagine the current team with 40 million worth of additional players/payroll. If this money was spent well this would be a team that could make a run in the playoffs this year given how good the rotation has been.
I think Madden goes a little too far but I also think Cherington not having a competent offense ready when Skenes came up was also malpractice so where do you point the finger? Bob claims the money is there. FO has leaked to media that it's not. I don't know.
I'm in the same boat.. he makes it sound 'too' easy and I wouldn't go as far as malpractice but to me the activity from now until opening day next year is the ultimate test for this regime. Money will need spent and prospects traded for contributors. And the reality no matter the GM/ Owner - can't miss on these big decisions... and that IS easier said than done. Regarding the FO vs. Bob etc.. I tend to ignore that stuff.. as it could be real or just noise.
I _am_ tired of huffing prospect hype, personally, and want to see them start trading minor leaguers for major league talent but because we have no data we have no idea if Cherington is a capable trader or not. We do have evidence he's bad at hitter development so it's likely going to be a bunch of pitcher for hitter trades if he does anything at all. He could also just not do much of anything which is what he's mostly done so far.
The Skenes hype train is almost out of control but I'm loving it. Bob has a rare opportunity to endear himself to Pirates fans for the rest of his life if he extends Skenes, even if it isn't for his entire career. Is committing something like $150-$200MM over ~8 years worth it for Bob to completely change his reputation?
To link the two conversations currently at the top of the morning after thread:
The Pirates will *never* pay Skenes market value. Never. We’re looking at a pitcher who is off to one of the best starts in MLB history. Skenes obviously trusts his ability, which includes the ability to stay healthy. There is no way he doesn’t hit the open market when his six years are up. So without trying to be disrespectful to anyone here, I honestly think it’s pointless to suggest long-term offers that will keep him beyond his arbitration years.
If you accept this premise then the corollary is obvious: the Pirates have 5 and 1/2 years to build a championship team around Skenes. That’s where I want to see the aggression: adding at the major league level around one of the best players in the game. That means Nutting getting the payroll up to mid-market peers and Cherington, or whomever, making good decisions with the additional resources.
The Bucs —- through sheer lottery luck —- have done the hard part. They finally have a superstar, a franchise changer. A competent owner/management team should be able to do the rest.
It’s exciting. But I am pessimistic they can pull it off. Where is Joe L. Brown or Syd Thrift when you need him?
May not get to see it today, but really hoping for another strong outing from Ortiz. Love seeing his growth as a pitcher and I do wonder if Skenes his having an impact on other young pitchers with his work ethic and game preparation. I know he worked in the off-season with Chandler, and it's interesting to see Ortiz going from being a thrower to becoming a pitcher. Pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me to see his leadership rub off on others in the organization.
I worry about his (Davis) concussion and think a lot of Francisco Cervelli. I feel like once you've had a concussion, you need to take, like, a MONTH off to get right so as not to engender a second successive concussion. Serious stuff.
I like Davis too, but he's running the risk of becoming dispensable. Joey Bart has looked good. Granny can fill in. Next year we get Endy back and he's real behind the plate.
I think, if Davis' bat becomes undeniable, we get a platoon of Endy and Davis where each catcher has enough time to recover, stay strong, and thus avoid injury. We've gone through a blizzard of catchers... If you get away from having the notion of a #1 guy and settle on having TWO #1 guys and split time evenly, I think you get the best out of everyone. Sort of the Golden State Warriors approach from a few years ago.
Also, Joey Bart has looked pretty good. No reason Endy can't play other positions too. Having three real catchers is an embarrassment of wealth.
Imo, the Pirates should use him strictly as a DH for the foreseeable future. He's never going to be a great defensive catcher or defensive player for that matter. Give him a chance to bring value with his hit tool and get that back on track. That would also reduce the risk of concussion significantly. Eventually, maybe he gets a few starts at catcher or even right field, but maybe ultimately he is a DH.
My main point was in response to Skenes work ethic rubbing off on the rest of the pitching staff. Henry Davis has that as well. I still have hopes he can be part of that culture in the bullpen the next several years as opposed to our rotating catchers year by year...... I know I know, let's take it one step at a time.
To support this, IMO - he showed his defense was passable for the Major Leagues. So let's take that as a win and as you suggest let him just hit until he is fully cleared and also allow him to focus on his hitting for a while.
I think most agree with what you both are saying. and I agree with DHing him until the bat gets going. I would prefer it be in the minors for a long period of time.... or until he gives the Pirates no choice to bring him up.
Good points. I saw him play several games in Indy and also fits that mold as a super-hard worker and very competitive. Then when I saw him in Pittsburgh, my take was he spent a lot of time working with pitchers.. to the point where his hitting became secondary and suffered because of it. I would love having and Endy/Henry platoon. Henry can play some rf and and Endy can play some first base.
I think you're pretty close to the mark, Greenie. I think you might qualify "leadership" as "Go out and get it." And the very capable pitchers in our system are getting a sense of a movement and they ALL wanna be part of it. This is exciting stuff. Keller, Skenes and Jones is a fine top three, but that doesn't mean these guys can't be right there with 'em. This was ridiculous to talk about two years ago, but what if you had a rotation comprised solely of #1s and #2s. Five Aces, as it were?
The pitchers of note have seen Skenes and Jones just go and get it. The Bucs couldn't do anything except put Jones on the team. So, if you wanna be part of the fun, you'd best keep your head down, put in your hours and preparation, take care of your body and optimize what your body can do.
For the longest time, I've posited that the Bucs had a wealth of middle relief multiple innings guys and were building a rotation that way. They've had a winning record in bullpen games by finding otherwise fungible pitchers who at the least can get six outs before anyone sees them twice.
Skenes has changed this. The idea now is that this train is leaving the station and you WANT to be on it. It's game time. It's go time in the minors. Now is the time to show. Is it leadership or happenstance? I don't know. But it's fun to watch.
Pirates win 4-1 on pitching, defense and a balanced attack. Great to see Gonzales back from his pesky forearm issues and we learn that Baby Skenes is gonna start the mid-summer classic. The Bucs are two games under .500, 2.5 back of the second place Cards and the wild card discussion, and only a half game out of the cellar.
*
CARROTS ON THE HOUSE!!!! (*almost all pitching edition)
@> One for Hayes going 2/4 with a run and an rbi.
@> One for The Renegade for returning to save mode.
@> One for HodorMan for holding the door.
@> One for Mlod for two solid innings. Welcome to the CLB Mlod! At long last!
@>@> Two for Marco G on his return to fortify a strong and getting stronger rotation.
*
Hmm-Hoom! That’s two wins in a row. Let’s not be hasty now, but could we finally get a third in a row with senor Ortiz going this afternoon in a free game on MLB.com? Wouldn’t that be tasty? Wouldn’t we love to spread some interleague carrots on this here house?
I made a sarcastic comment yesterday about Marco being promoted to start before doing well in his rehab. I will eat those words and say he gave us a good Marco game. A lot of baserunners with only one run.
Pretty cool being a Bucco fan right now. I know I’m enjoying it.
Bucsdugout vibes :)
I like hearing the debate about Shelton on the national level, especially after Shelton said Skenes looked tired is why he took him out.
Ron Darling said 'I would for once want to hear the manager be honest and say I don't want to be the manager that gets this player hurt."
Steve Phillips said 'After throwing 13 pitches in the last 2 innings, what did you see him yawn'
I'm paraphrasing, but fun to hear it.
Truly incredible. We will remember being around this place and time for a long while, fellas.
Speaking of Bob having a rare opportunity to endear himself to fans: https://triblive.com/sports/mark-madden-dont-be-duped-the-pirates-will-never-spend-what-it-takes/
At a high level I get Mark Maddeen's points but any comparison to other major sports is ridiculous... Steelers and Penguins compete in a totally different revenue model and we all know that. Should Ben spend more... zero argument from me, but the challenges of the Pittsburgh market will always AT SOME POINT be a factor.
Hold on a second. No one is saying that the Pirates should be spending money like the Dodgers but there is no reason why the team cannot have payrolls in the 120m to 150m range. Imagine the current team with 40 million worth of additional players/payroll. If this money was spent well this would be a team that could make a run in the playoffs this year given how good the rotation has been.
I think Madden goes a little too far but I also think Cherington not having a competent offense ready when Skenes came up was also malpractice so where do you point the finger? Bob claims the money is there. FO has leaked to media that it's not. I don't know.
I'm in the same boat.. he makes it sound 'too' easy and I wouldn't go as far as malpractice but to me the activity from now until opening day next year is the ultimate test for this regime. Money will need spent and prospects traded for contributors. And the reality no matter the GM/ Owner - can't miss on these big decisions... and that IS easier said than done. Regarding the FO vs. Bob etc.. I tend to ignore that stuff.. as it could be real or just noise.
I _am_ tired of huffing prospect hype, personally, and want to see them start trading minor leaguers for major league talent but because we have no data we have no idea if Cherington is a capable trader or not. We do have evidence he's bad at hitter development so it's likely going to be a bunch of pitcher for hitter trades if he does anything at all. He could also just not do much of anything which is what he's mostly done so far.
The Skenes hype train is almost out of control but I'm loving it. Bob has a rare opportunity to endear himself to Pirates fans for the rest of his life if he extends Skenes, even if it isn't for his entire career. Is committing something like $150-$200MM over ~8 years worth it for Bob to completely change his reputation?
He really does, as long as he's also willing to put a decent surrounding team around him. It doesn't need to be allstars,, just real mlb talent.
To link the two conversations currently at the top of the morning after thread:
The Pirates will *never* pay Skenes market value. Never. We’re looking at a pitcher who is off to one of the best starts in MLB history. Skenes obviously trusts his ability, which includes the ability to stay healthy. There is no way he doesn’t hit the open market when his six years are up. So without trying to be disrespectful to anyone here, I honestly think it’s pointless to suggest long-term offers that will keep him beyond his arbitration years.
If you accept this premise then the corollary is obvious: the Pirates have 5 and 1/2 years to build a championship team around Skenes. That’s where I want to see the aggression: adding at the major league level around one of the best players in the game. That means Nutting getting the payroll up to mid-market peers and Cherington, or whomever, making good decisions with the additional resources.
The Bucs —- through sheer lottery luck —- have done the hard part. They finally have a superstar, a franchise changer. A competent owner/management team should be able to do the rest.
It’s exciting. But I am pessimistic they can pull it off. Where is Joe L. Brown or Syd Thrift when you need him?
May not get to see it today, but really hoping for another strong outing from Ortiz. Love seeing his growth as a pitcher and I do wonder if Skenes his having an impact on other young pitchers with his work ethic and game preparation. I know he worked in the off-season with Chandler, and it's interesting to see Ortiz going from being a thrower to becoming a pitcher. Pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me to see his leadership rub off on others in the organization.
That is another reason I want Davis to hit himself back to the majors. His work ethic is through the roof as well and fits in with that young group.
Hey Stats.
I worry about his (Davis) concussion and think a lot of Francisco Cervelli. I feel like once you've had a concussion, you need to take, like, a MONTH off to get right so as not to engender a second successive concussion. Serious stuff.
I like Davis too, but he's running the risk of becoming dispensable. Joey Bart has looked good. Granny can fill in. Next year we get Endy back and he's real behind the plate.
I think, if Davis' bat becomes undeniable, we get a platoon of Endy and Davis where each catcher has enough time to recover, stay strong, and thus avoid injury. We've gone through a blizzard of catchers... If you get away from having the notion of a #1 guy and settle on having TWO #1 guys and split time evenly, I think you get the best out of everyone. Sort of the Golden State Warriors approach from a few years ago.
Also, Joey Bart has looked pretty good. No reason Endy can't play other positions too. Having three real catchers is an embarrassment of wealth.
As far as the concussion, I'm with you. Let's not rush him. He really needs to get his bat figured out first.
Imo, the Pirates should use him strictly as a DH for the foreseeable future. He's never going to be a great defensive catcher or defensive player for that matter. Give him a chance to bring value with his hit tool and get that back on track. That would also reduce the risk of concussion significantly. Eventually, maybe he gets a few starts at catcher or even right field, but maybe ultimately he is a DH.
My main point was in response to Skenes work ethic rubbing off on the rest of the pitching staff. Henry Davis has that as well. I still have hopes he can be part of that culture in the bullpen the next several years as opposed to our rotating catchers year by year...... I know I know, let's take it one step at a time.
To support this, IMO - he showed his defense was passable for the Major Leagues. So let's take that as a win and as you suggest let him just hit until he is fully cleared and also allow him to focus on his hitting for a while.
I think most agree with what you both are saying. and I agree with DHing him until the bat gets going. I would prefer it be in the minors for a long period of time.... or until he gives the Pirates no choice to bring him up.
Good points. I saw him play several games in Indy and also fits that mold as a super-hard worker and very competitive. Then when I saw him in Pittsburgh, my take was he spent a lot of time working with pitchers.. to the point where his hitting became secondary and suffered because of it. I would love having and Endy/Henry platoon. Henry can play some rf and and Endy can play some first base.
Endy has yet to prove he won't get the bat knocked out of his hands at MLB.
I think you're pretty close to the mark, Greenie. I think you might qualify "leadership" as "Go out and get it." And the very capable pitchers in our system are getting a sense of a movement and they ALL wanna be part of it. This is exciting stuff. Keller, Skenes and Jones is a fine top three, but that doesn't mean these guys can't be right there with 'em. This was ridiculous to talk about two years ago, but what if you had a rotation comprised solely of #1s and #2s. Five Aces, as it were?
The pitchers of note have seen Skenes and Jones just go and get it. The Bucs couldn't do anything except put Jones on the team. So, if you wanna be part of the fun, you'd best keep your head down, put in your hours and preparation, take care of your body and optimize what your body can do.
For the longest time, I've posited that the Bucs had a wealth of middle relief multiple innings guys and were building a rotation that way. They've had a winning record in bullpen games by finding otherwise fungible pitchers who at the least can get six outs before anyone sees them twice.
Skenes has changed this. The idea now is that this train is leaving the station and you WANT to be on it. It's game time. It's go time in the minors. Now is the time to show. Is it leadership or happenstance? I don't know. But it's fun to watch.
Your Saturday Morning Carrot Tally
*
The Carrot Tally So Far:*
Keller 28
B.Rey 22
Tellez 21
BabySkenes 20
Jones 18 injured
O’Cruz 18
Nick the Stick 13
L’Ortiz 13
Falter 13
Cutch 11
Joe 8
ChapMan 8
HodorMan 8
M. Gonzales 8
Oliveras 7
Suwinski 7
Bednar 7
M. Perez 6
Flemming 5
Granny 4
Hayes 4
Triolo 3
Bart 3
R.Ryan 2
Davis 2
Williams 2
Bae 2
Nicolas 2
Palacios 2
Contreras 1 traded
J. Hernandez 1 traded
M A Taylor 1
Delay 1
QP 1
Mlod 1
*
*updated 7/12/24
Friday, July12
46 down. 35 to go.
*
Pirates win 4-1 on pitching, defense and a balanced attack. Great to see Gonzales back from his pesky forearm issues and we learn that Baby Skenes is gonna start the mid-summer classic. The Bucs are two games under .500, 2.5 back of the second place Cards and the wild card discussion, and only a half game out of the cellar.
*
CARROTS ON THE HOUSE!!!! (*almost all pitching edition)
@> One for Hayes going 2/4 with a run and an rbi.
@> One for The Renegade for returning to save mode.
@> One for HodorMan for holding the door.
@> One for Mlod for two solid innings. Welcome to the CLB Mlod! At long last!
@>@> Two for Marco G on his return to fortify a strong and getting stronger rotation.
*
Hmm-Hoom! That’s two wins in a row. Let’s not be hasty now, but could we finally get a third in a row with senor Ortiz going this afternoon in a free game on MLB.com? Wouldn’t that be tasty? Wouldn’t we love to spread some interleague carrots on this here house?
*
Let’s Go Bucs!
_______________________
“Hassan CHOP!!!!”
-Wabbit
I don't know if Paul Skenes road numbers were mentioned. 3-0 0.86 ERA .0606 WHIP
31.3 innings 14 hits 5 walks 48 strike outs.
jeez
I made a sarcastic comment yesterday about Marco being promoted to start before doing well in his rehab. I will eat those words and say he gave us a good Marco game. A lot of baserunners with only one run.
Yep, me too.