Man, I am convinced this team is really close to being a strong contender because of the amount of pitching available in the organization, BUT I don’t trust that management has the aptitude or willingness to actually get us there. Even this team with a better/decent bullpen would be on the edge of wild card contention. The implosion of the bullpen makes this year worse than it might have been. I can’t fully blame BC or Shelton for looking at Holderman, Chapman, and Bednar as a strong backend. At some point the players really are the ones who win and lose it. But how do you build a good bullpen next year? Call in NH, who I think was really good at this, and ask him to assemble one! Only slightly joking.
Veale wore these coke-bottle type glasses. There was a story once that, with Lou Brock up, Veale had an issue with the glasses. There were two outs or something and Veale said he'd just finish the inning and get them fixed later, but Brock refused to get in the batters box.
Ignoring the FO/coaching stuff (I'm tired and what hasn't been said)...
I am warming to the concept of Reynolds potentially moving to 1B next year and Cook/EDIT: Cruz lol/FA (hopefully not BDLC) in the outfield. It's a total bummer we don't have several weeks of additional evidence on Cook and Yorke in the big leagues to help facilitate these decisions.
Reynolds to first plugs a hole for sure. But, they haven’t been great at finding outfielders and I’m worried about the outfield defense as well, not that Reynolds grades out well in LF or anything. If they are going to bear the fruits of this pitching staff they need grade out better than 26th in Fangraphs FPA, especially when you’re giving up so much offensively at so many positions.
Would Reynolds basically be worth the same at first as he is in left? In other words, if he is this bad defensively in left, and he moves further down the defensive spectrum, is he worth roughly the same if he’s an average 1B? Per wRC+ he’d grade out around 9 or 10 as a 1B.
It does solve one problem, while kind of opening another. However, there are many more OFs available than 1B, so if they think Reynolds slip defensively is irreversible, this is the right move.
Valid points. Another way to look at it: they have a massive (for them), investment in him. Does moving him to first help protect that investment? Getting him into a less physically demanding position might keep him fresher. The bat might even improve a little. A little glass half full there.
FA OF market does not look appealing for the Pirates...
Juan Soto, Cody Bellinger (opt-out), Alex Verdugo, Michael Conforto, Joey Gallo, Tyler O’Neill, Joc Pederson (mutual option), Anthony Santander, Lourdes Gurriel Jr. (opt-out), Teoscar Hernández, Aaron Hicks, Andrew McCutchen, Kevin Kiermaier, Max Kepler, Harrison Bader, Mark Canha, Mitch Haniger (opt-out), Hunter Renfroe (player option), Manuel Margot (mutual option), Michael A. Taylor, Charlie Blackmon, Adam Duvall, Randal Grichuk (mutual option), Jason Heyward, Jurickson Profar
I think giving a position to Cook would be repeating a problem we've had in the past where we commit to someone who has only had a brief stretch of success (and last night's HR not withstanding, he hasn't even had that yet).
I agree with this take while still wanting to see him get everyday at bats throughthe end of the year. I still think his most likely outcome is a defense first 4th outfielder that comes cheap, allowing for more money to get legit hitters to fill the starting positions.
Hopefully he can show promise with the bat and be more. He has shown speed, quality arm, and versatility with glimpses of a bat. Still has a long way to go with the bat but at least not a nothing with the stick. His plate discipline needs to improve with the glimmer of hope he is adjusting (the homerun he hit was on an outer edge top of the zone pitch, an area he hasn't been able to touch).
A 4th OFer almost has to be defense first because he should be able to cover CF adequately, and anyone who can cover CF adequately, but isn't good enough to start, is going to have below-par bat for a corner position. Cook projects, to me at least, to be everything you want in a 4th OFer. Good defensive sub at the corners or 1B, can cover CF on off-days for Cruz, serviceable PHer against lefties, and good pinch-runner.
Not necessarily on a 4th OF. If one of your corners can handle being in CF, defense is less of a requirement of your 4th OF. If Cook is a Steve Pearce light, that’d be great. Not sure I see that though.
Yes. But I don't think the Pirates have anyone at corner who can slide over to CF. BdlC in CF? Save us all. Even Suwinski is pretty dubious in CF, and he is the best they have right now.
Totally agree, I'm not giving up on him being more with the bat but he'll have to earn it. He has improved every year in the minors and I'm pulling for him but 4th outfielder is his most likely landing spot.
If he hits his way into a starting position.. great. It is possible, and I wouldn't rule it out. But he would have to hit his way into being a starter. It should not be handed to him.
That's why he and Yorke should have been called up much earlier...in any case, if he is in the mix, great...hopefully that mix includes some legitimate options that are better than MAT and BDLC, but I guess that is unlikely given our history.
Even if they were called up earlier, there’s the likelihood we run into the Triolo effect if the player does “well.” Where a young guy runs an impossibly high babip into looking much better than he really is. And the player then gets immediately exposed when he has more playing time.
The last comment here should be etched into this organizations brain.
For fringe prospects (of which Yorke and Cook are) they have to hit immediately and have data to back it up to show their production isn’t a mirage. No way should those type of players get a full seasons worth of at bats on a team purporting to contend for a postseason spot. Unless they’re ripping.
We just don't have enough good players on offense throughout the system with the pedigree to warrant an extended look, and we're sure as heck never going to sign a difference making FA to fill a gap. So it's constant waffling between fringe prospects and mid-to-dumpster-level FAs. Sucks.
There are a pile of free-agent OFers this offseason. I am sure, however, that if GMBC is still sitting in the chair, they will manage to waste $25 million on a pile of junk rather than signing one or two good players to cover the OF. If they hand the job, any job, to Cook, they deserve whatever they get.
I'm positive they will commit to some combo of Suwinski/BDLC/Cook/Yorke in at least one corner OF spot. But I can kinda live with that if they sign a legit FA for the other corner.
Ok. If the budget only has room for 1 guy, then get 1 guy, but make it a good player... not Edward Olivares, Bryan de la Cruz, Joshua Palacios, or whatever. Of course, it is not against the rules of baseball to trade for a prospect who is actually a good prospect. I know that the Pirates know this because they did it with Yorke. They could even... gasp... do it again.
Did we cut Oneil Cruz, our present Center Fielder?
Reynolds at 1B? Doubt he has ever played 1B in MLB, and I doubt he has much experience, if any, at 1B in college or in the minors.
Cook played 50 games at 1B this year in the minors - .995 Fld %. Could be the new RH 1B/OF, with Endy being the switchhitting C/1B. Experience at 1B early in his career.
Shelton's contract was extended a year in 2023 supposedly because the Management Team saw some improvement, and was hopeful the Pirates could build on that positivity. We have not improved in 2024 and, in fact, we are further away from the WC than we were in 2023. Our GM is on record as saying he expects Shelton will be the Pirate Manager in 2025.
BC must be delusional and Shelton with his sub .415 Winning Percentage in 5 years needs to be going down the road! Maybe Nutting cleans house completely. I liked the way BC has handled the Draft, but if he cannot grasp and communicate that winning is the goal, he needs to lead the way out the door with Shelton right behind him.
What’s to like about how BC has handled the draft other than he’s drafted a FEW good starting pitchers? He completely blew the Davis pick, and the system’s top hitting prospect is Johnson, who’s best trait is he walks a lot. Look at the rankings, and at the production. There’s not much there other than some hope. It’s been 5 years. Enough of BC. Don’t even get me started about the lack of return on his trades. It’s awful.
The 2021 Draft of Davis and underpaying by $2 + mil opened up the dollars to overpay for #37 Anthony Solometo at $2.8 mil; #64 Lonnie White, Jr for $1.5 mil; and Bubba Chandler #72 at $3.0 mil.
Bubba was the goal going in, and he is about ready to start the return on investment the same as Skenes and Jones have done in 2024. Skenes was paid $9 mil and his return value in fWAR so far in 2024 is over $30 mil. Jones in 2020 was paid $2.2 mil and this year his 1.8 fWAR is worth return value of almost $14 mil. They will both be value performers for 5 more years.
I sure as heck hope Bubba was not the goal of the 2021 draft strategy on account of the fact that they had every dollar needed to acquire him WITHOUT cutting a deal at 1.1.
Their moonshot to turn a football player into a baseball player is what they got out of Hank's savings. Maybe Solo, too.
Agreed. The credit he gets for the draft is a bit mystifying. If they didn’t luck into Skenes, and ended up with Langford, his draft record would be positively disastrous at this point. The Skenes pick is a form of recency bias that they are really milking.
I'm sorry, there's absolutely zero "luck" involved in that Skenes decision.
They had the balls to pick a pitcher 1.1 when the zeitgeist is clearly towards that being too risky when a hitter of Langford's caliber is also an option.
They deserve every bit of credit possible for picking Paul Skenes, let's not rewrite history.
That’s a good point. There’s plenty of material to beat them up on, they shouldn’t be dinged for that. Whatever we can say about their draft strategies, they do have stones. A GM worried about their future employment is unlikely to have picked Konnor Griffin.
Without Skenes, his draft record is basically Jones and…Nicky G? Barring anything off field or impressively disastrous, GMs should get five years. He’s gotten just that.
Yes, looking through his drafts, the latter rounds in particular look like barren wastelands of major league talent. Of course, to be fair to Ben, that could change, but I’m not seeing a ton of guys past round 3 where I’d to plunk down money betting that they’ll have productive major league careers. You can’t survive only hitting on a few of your higher picks. Littlefield gave us Maholm, Cutch, Walker and that wasn’t enough to save his job.
True, although making the cutoff “post round 3” conveniently excludes Bubba. Looking back through some drafts of 2021, there are certainly some big leaguers mixed in those rounds. He just can’t seem to find them.
Pipeline had Chandler as the 21st ranked player in that draft though. Anyone with a Baseball America handbook can make that pick. Now, he does deserve credit for juggling his resources properly in that draft to be able to sign Chandler, Solometo, White and Davis. But did he do some outstanding job of identifying a later round hidden talent? Not really.
And I promise I’m not trying to be difficult here. I’m merely pointing out that this guy gets graded on a severe curve, for whatever reason, which I suppose was the kinda the point of my original comment.
The Pirates are showing 2 and 2 right now - 2 young prospects (Cook, Yorke) gotten in trade deadline deals are looking positive at the MLB level; 2 veterans gotten in trade deadline deals have been fairly pedestrian at best.
IKF was supposed to be a leader at SS and at the plate. We have Shortstops who can field, but what we needed most was a hitter for the top end of the order - since arriving he is sporting a far less-than-expected .617 OPS and a pitiful number of strikeouts to walks - 35 K/3 BB. BDLC was hoped to be a middle-of-the-order EBH/RBI hitter. So far in 139 AB he has 2 HR, 14 RBI, and like IKF, a pitiful number of strikeouts to walks of 44 K/2 BB!
Great to see Endy Rod and Jack Suwinski go yard in AAA and a very positive 5 inning start from Thomas Harrington.
Regarding the Yorke deal, I checked in on Priester and he’s performing similarly as he did with the Bucs AAA affiliate.
Interesting juxtaposition you created there with IKF and BDLC. Increasingly, young talent dominates in this game. I’d rather see us trying to find guys like Yorke and Cook, that aren’t established and have skill sets that we like, as opposed wasting capital chasing guys approaching their 30’s.
IKF and BDLC could be very good additions to a title contender looking for some extra juice, not a .500 team looking for them to be transformed into a serious playoff contender.
Man, I am convinced this team is really close to being a strong contender because of the amount of pitching available in the organization, BUT I don’t trust that management has the aptitude or willingness to actually get us there. Even this team with a better/decent bullpen would be on the edge of wild card contention. The implosion of the bullpen makes this year worse than it might have been. I can’t fully blame BC or Shelton for looking at Holderman, Chapman, and Bednar as a strong backend. At some point the players really are the ones who win and lose it. But how do you build a good bullpen next year? Call in NH, who I think was really good at this, and ask him to assemble one! Only slightly joking.
our boi Endy lookin thickkkk.
nice resource i came across today
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PIT/pos.shtml
looks like they need to double their oWAR to get anywhere near the heights of 2013-15
anybody know what cut Bob Veale´s career 30 strikeouts short of the franchise all time lead?
Veale wore these coke-bottle type glasses. There was a story once that, with Lou Brock up, Veale had an issue with the glasses. There were two outs or something and Veale said he'd just finish the inning and get them fixed later, but Brock refused to get in the batters box.
reminds me of this article about Brian Roberts cheating with super contact lenses way back in 2005
https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/06/06/taking-the-red-eye
ah wow
sold him to boston
looks sketchy
#2025BobVealePiratesHOF
Ignoring the FO/coaching stuff (I'm tired and what hasn't been said)...
I am warming to the concept of Reynolds potentially moving to 1B next year and Cook/EDIT: Cruz lol/FA (hopefully not BDLC) in the outfield. It's a total bummer we don't have several weeks of additional evidence on Cook and Yorke in the big leagues to help facilitate these decisions.
Thank you!
Reynolds to first plugs a hole for sure. But, they haven’t been great at finding outfielders and I’m worried about the outfield defense as well, not that Reynolds grades out well in LF or anything. If they are going to bear the fruits of this pitching staff they need grade out better than 26th in Fangraphs FPA, especially when you’re giving up so much offensively at so many positions.
Would Reynolds basically be worth the same at first as he is in left? In other words, if he is this bad defensively in left, and he moves further down the defensive spectrum, is he worth roughly the same if he’s an average 1B? Per wRC+ he’d grade out around 9 or 10 as a 1B.
It does solve one problem, while kind of opening another. However, there are many more OFs available than 1B, so if they think Reynolds slip defensively is irreversible, this is the right move.
Valid points. Another way to look at it: they have a massive (for them), investment in him. Does moving him to first help protect that investment? Getting him into a less physically demanding position might keep him fresher. The bat might even improve a little. A little glass half full there.
Probably same value. 1b is at the end of the defensive spectrum, but LF is next.
That was pretty much my line of thinking. I’m not sure where they go for OF help. FA? The trade market?
FA OF market does not look appealing for the Pirates...
Juan Soto, Cody Bellinger (opt-out), Alex Verdugo, Michael Conforto, Joey Gallo, Tyler O’Neill, Joc Pederson (mutual option), Anthony Santander, Lourdes Gurriel Jr. (opt-out), Teoscar Hernández, Aaron Hicks, Andrew McCutchen, Kevin Kiermaier, Max Kepler, Harrison Bader, Mark Canha, Mitch Haniger (opt-out), Hunter Renfroe (player option), Manuel Margot (mutual option), Michael A. Taylor, Charlie Blackmon, Adam Duvall, Randal Grichuk (mutual option), Jason Heyward, Jurickson Profar
Surely they can afford one of: O’Neill, Gurriel, Teoscar, Verdugo, Profar
Yeah, the obvious problem is too many major league players. Not BC’s thing.
I think giving a position to Cook would be repeating a problem we've had in the past where we commit to someone who has only had a brief stretch of success (and last night's HR not withstanding, he hasn't even had that yet).
I agree with this take while still wanting to see him get everyday at bats throughthe end of the year. I still think his most likely outcome is a defense first 4th outfielder that comes cheap, allowing for more money to get legit hitters to fill the starting positions.
Hopefully he can show promise with the bat and be more. He has shown speed, quality arm, and versatility with glimpses of a bat. Still has a long way to go with the bat but at least not a nothing with the stick. His plate discipline needs to improve with the glimmer of hope he is adjusting (the homerun he hit was on an outer edge top of the zone pitch, an area he hasn't been able to touch).
A 4th OFer almost has to be defense first because he should be able to cover CF adequately, and anyone who can cover CF adequately, but isn't good enough to start, is going to have below-par bat for a corner position. Cook projects, to me at least, to be everything you want in a 4th OFer. Good defensive sub at the corners or 1B, can cover CF on off-days for Cruz, serviceable PHer against lefties, and good pinch-runner.
Not necessarily on a 4th OF. If one of your corners can handle being in CF, defense is less of a requirement of your 4th OF. If Cook is a Steve Pearce light, that’d be great. Not sure I see that though.
Yes. But I don't think the Pirates have anyone at corner who can slide over to CF. BdlC in CF? Save us all. Even Suwinski is pretty dubious in CF, and he is the best they have right now.
Totally agree, I'm not giving up on him being more with the bat but he'll have to earn it. He has improved every year in the minors and I'm pulling for him but 4th outfielder is his most likely landing spot.
If he hits his way into a starting position.. great. It is possible, and I wouldn't rule it out. But he would have to hit his way into being a starter. It should not be handed to him.
Same page I'm on, Taylor and Joe shouldn't be getting at bats before him for the remainder of the season though.
That's why he and Yorke should have been called up much earlier...in any case, if he is in the mix, great...hopefully that mix includes some legitimate options that are better than MAT and BDLC, but I guess that is unlikely given our history.
Even if they were called up earlier, there’s the likelihood we run into the Triolo effect if the player does “well.” Where a young guy runs an impossibly high babip into looking much better than he really is. And the player then gets immediately exposed when he has more playing time.
This is ultimately why I find the whole "see what he's got" logic so uncompelling.
It's completely unworkable as an organizational strategy.
You cannot both claim you're trying to win big league games *and* give every prospect a big enough scholarship to actually learn anything.
The last comment here should be etched into this organizations brain.
For fringe prospects (of which Yorke and Cook are) they have to hit immediately and have data to back it up to show their production isn’t a mirage. No way should those type of players get a full seasons worth of at bats on a team purporting to contend for a postseason spot. Unless they’re ripping.
We just don't have enough good players on offense throughout the system with the pedigree to warrant an extended look, and we're sure as heck never going to sign a difference making FA to fill a gap. So it's constant waffling between fringe prospects and mid-to-dumpster-level FAs. Sucks.
yeah, Yorke is running like a .500 babip
SSS for sure, but he's not hitting the ball hard either
I agree but think he may run a higher babip than most players do to his swing and approach. More in the line of .350 than .500 though.
There are a pile of free-agent OFers this offseason. I am sure, however, that if GMBC is still sitting in the chair, they will manage to waste $25 million on a pile of junk rather than signing one or two good players to cover the OF. If they hand the job, any job, to Cook, they deserve whatever they get.
I'm positive they will commit to some combo of Suwinski/BDLC/Cook/Yorke in at least one corner OF spot. But I can kinda live with that if they sign a legit FA for the other corner.
Ok. If the budget only has room for 1 guy, then get 1 guy, but make it a good player... not Edward Olivares, Bryan de la Cruz, Joshua Palacios, or whatever. Of course, it is not against the rules of baseball to trade for a prospect who is actually a good prospect. I know that the Pirates know this because they did it with Yorke. They could even... gasp... do it again.
Correct. They're not handing anything to a guy k'ing damn near 40% of the time.
Fangraphs has Cook @ 6'1" which I found amusing. BR has him at 5'11" which is still probably an inch or 2 generous.
That’s what she said.
Did we cut Oneil Cruz, our present Center Fielder?
Reynolds at 1B? Doubt he has ever played 1B in MLB, and I doubt he has much experience, if any, at 1B in college or in the minors.
Cook played 50 games at 1B this year in the minors - .995 Fld %. Could be the new RH 1B/OF, with Endy being the switchhitting C/1B. Experience at 1B early in his career.
Hahaha OOPS I said tired
Shelton's contract was extended a year in 2023 supposedly because the Management Team saw some improvement, and was hopeful the Pirates could build on that positivity. We have not improved in 2024 and, in fact, we are further away from the WC than we were in 2023. Our GM is on record as saying he expects Shelton will be the Pirate Manager in 2025.
BC must be delusional and Shelton with his sub .415 Winning Percentage in 5 years needs to be going down the road! Maybe Nutting cleans house completely. I liked the way BC has handled the Draft, but if he cannot grasp and communicate that winning is the goal, he needs to lead the way out the door with Shelton right behind him.
What’s to like about how BC has handled the draft other than he’s drafted a FEW good starting pitchers? He completely blew the Davis pick, and the system’s top hitting prospect is Johnson, who’s best trait is he walks a lot. Look at the rankings, and at the production. There’s not much there other than some hope. It’s been 5 years. Enough of BC. Don’t even get me started about the lack of return on his trades. It’s awful.
The 2021 Draft of Davis and underpaying by $2 + mil opened up the dollars to overpay for #37 Anthony Solometo at $2.8 mil; #64 Lonnie White, Jr for $1.5 mil; and Bubba Chandler #72 at $3.0 mil.
Bubba was the goal going in, and he is about ready to start the return on investment the same as Skenes and Jones have done in 2024. Skenes was paid $9 mil and his return value in fWAR so far in 2024 is over $30 mil. Jones in 2020 was paid $2.2 mil and this year his 1.8 fWAR is worth return value of almost $14 mil. They will both be value performers for 5 more years.
I sure as heck hope Bubba was not the goal of the 2021 draft strategy on account of the fact that they had every dollar needed to acquire him WITHOUT cutting a deal at 1.1.
Their moonshot to turn a football player into a baseball player is what they got out of Hank's savings. Maybe Solo, too.
Could have just as easily popped Vincent Chase (Mayer) and paid Bubba and sorta punted the rest.
Agreed. The credit he gets for the draft is a bit mystifying. If they didn’t luck into Skenes, and ended up with Langford, his draft record would be positively disastrous at this point. The Skenes pick is a form of recency bias that they are really milking.
I'm sorry, there's absolutely zero "luck" involved in that Skenes decision.
They had the balls to pick a pitcher 1.1 when the zeitgeist is clearly towards that being too risky when a hitter of Langford's caliber is also an option.
They deserve every bit of credit possible for picking Paul Skenes, let's not rewrite history.
That’s a good point. There’s plenty of material to beat them up on, they shouldn’t be dinged for that. Whatever we can say about their draft strategies, they do have stones. A GM worried about their future employment is unlikely to have picked Konnor Griffin.
Without Skenes, his draft record is basically Jones and…Nicky G? Barring anything off field or impressively disastrous, GMs should get five years. He’s gotten just that.
Yes, looking through his drafts, the latter rounds in particular look like barren wastelands of major league talent. Of course, to be fair to Ben, that could change, but I’m not seeing a ton of guys past round 3 where I’d to plunk down money betting that they’ll have productive major league careers. You can’t survive only hitting on a few of your higher picks. Littlefield gave us Maholm, Cutch, Walker and that wasn’t enough to save his job.
True, although making the cutoff “post round 3” conveniently excludes Bubba. Looking back through some drafts of 2021, there are certainly some big leaguers mixed in those rounds. He just can’t seem to find them.
Pipeline had Chandler as the 21st ranked player in that draft though. Anyone with a Baseball America handbook can make that pick. Now, he does deserve credit for juggling his resources properly in that draft to be able to sign Chandler, Solometo, White and Davis. But did he do some outstanding job of identifying a later round hidden talent? Not really.
And I promise I’m not trying to be difficult here. I’m merely pointing out that this guy gets graded on a severe curve, for whatever reason, which I suppose was the kinda the point of my original comment.
But his lottery skills are second to none!
How is Yean pronounced? YEEN? yay-AWN? Something else?
EEEEN
Just like if there was an M as the first letter.
The Pirates are showing 2 and 2 right now - 2 young prospects (Cook, Yorke) gotten in trade deadline deals are looking positive at the MLB level; 2 veterans gotten in trade deadline deals have been fairly pedestrian at best.
IKF was supposed to be a leader at SS and at the plate. We have Shortstops who can field, but what we needed most was a hitter for the top end of the order - since arriving he is sporting a far less-than-expected .617 OPS and a pitiful number of strikeouts to walks - 35 K/3 BB. BDLC was hoped to be a middle-of-the-order EBH/RBI hitter. So far in 139 AB he has 2 HR, 14 RBI, and like IKF, a pitiful number of strikeouts to walks of 44 K/2 BB!
Great to see Endy Rod and Jack Suwinski go yard in AAA and a very positive 5 inning start from Thomas Harrington.
Regarding the Yorke deal, I checked in on Priester and he’s performing similarly as he did with the Bucs AAA affiliate.
Interesting juxtaposition you created there with IKF and BDLC. Increasingly, young talent dominates in this game. I’d rather see us trying to find guys like Yorke and Cook, that aren’t established and have skill sets that we like, as opposed wasting capital chasing guys approaching their 30’s.
IKF and BDLC could be very good additions to a title contender looking for some extra juice, not a .500 team looking for them to be transformed into a serious playoff contender.