Grandal had leg injury after 9th inning AB. Will be interested to get an update on him.......but that may not happen til 1 hour before gametime on Tues. Who comes up.....Hank or Delay?
I’m less bothered by the home run itself than the two walks that occurred before hand. Joc is on a tear right now, you have to get those outs before he walks up to the plate and get out of that inning.
Come on now. The game’s on the line, you’ve got a struggling pitcher who’s having trouble throwing strikes, one of the Dbacks best hitters up who struggles against lefties, a lefty ready in the pen and you leave Holderman in the game to pitch to Pederson? What manager does that?
Pederson just saw Beeks for a 9-pitch AB the prior game, and was right on him, hitting 2 foul HRs before walking. Chapman was unavailable after 2 games in a row. So which lefty did you want Shelton to use........Falter, Marco??
Loved how Wehner was incredulous about Lovello sac bunting trailing by 2 runs and handing Bucs and Holderman and out. Bad managing. But Joc hits the 3 run dinger and all is forgotten.
We just don't have the lineup than can regularly overcome Shelton's gaffes.
I am all for questioning our decisions to bunt in key situations, but I also really hung up on how terrible we are at the skill of bunting itself. The Dbacks' backup C put a perfect one down yesterday against us, Im just incredulous how bad we are at it in addition to when we decide to do it
How much does a near .300 hitter practice something he’s asked to do a couple times a year? I would be shocked to hear IKF practices sacrifice bunting anywhere near as often as any backup Catcher.
Don Kelly has to talk Shelton out of that decision. Both of them need to know Jay Bell isn’t on this team. It’s unfair to IKF to expect him to do something he’s ill prepared to do.
As a more than willing Cherington basher, I have to admit that he’s made some logical moves lately and put together a team that’s on the verge of contending along with a farm system with a lot of potential. He must now be willing to acknowledge that the manager he chose to do his bidding during the lean times is not up to managing a contending team.
Shelton has always been in over his head but it didn’t matter much when losing was the expected outcome regardless. It matters now and while it’s easy to point out specific players responsible for specific losses these days the way this team plays and the mechanical way it’s managed has to change if it has any chance of winning anything. They need a motivational and experienced leader who knows what moves to make and how to get the best from his players. Who that might be can be debated, but it’s not Derek Shelton.
What’s odd is that he had shown an ability to make 3D game decisions over the previous week. He didn’t revolutionize the game or anything, but indicated he might be learning a little about how to manage with the big boys.
Then he goes back to being a shitty Commodore 64 simulator
I think you're right on the money Doc. As an example the Cubs 10 years ago fired Rick Renteria when it was deemed he wasn't up to the task of taking a young promising roster to it's potential. I see similarities with the Bucs however the Cubs were led by Theo Epstein and I'm not sure BC has what it takes to take the needed next steps.
As an initial Cherington supporter, turned critic, I somewhat disagree. The farm system is incredibly mediocre for having years of high picks. One recent ranking had them 19. I won’t reiterate my position on the trades, but let’s say the team is substantially better than they were on July 30th.
It’s hard for me to blame Derek Shelton. He’s been handed flawed roster after flawed roster. He’s handcuffed by a decision making process that’s largely run out of the same front office assembling the flawed rosters.
I certainly agree that Shelton hasn’t had anything to work with over the years, and that’s 100% on the GM and the big nut in the penthouse, but this team has some pieces and is closer to an actual major league roster but continues to lose too many games that could and should be won. Unless you believe Cherington’s in his ear calling all of the plays and moves, which I can’t think anyone believes, those decisions fall on the manager. Shelton might be a total lackey for Cherington or maybe he just has no clue (maybe both), but either way things need to change.
There’d be no chance of getting a decent manager if BC has and wants to continue to have full control of what happens on the field. A good manager wouldn’t take the job if he didn’t have the freedom to manage the team on field team as he saw fit. If Shelton’s really willing to give up that control to his boss, that’s all the more reason a change has to happen. It ultimately will come down to the GM though if for no other reason than he’s the one who will be making the decision.
To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that Cherington was calling all the moves. There are setups throughout the league where the FO does micromanage in some instances. The Mets GM was called out a few years back for dictating some pitching changes to the manager. Some managers, like Joe Maddon, have complained about FO interference. I suspect, upon reflection, that in our instance, perhaps such an arrangement wouldn’t be necessary as the GM and manager are largely philosophically aligned it seems.
I blame both guys but Shelton's bullpen management and bunting obsession is 100% on him and he needs to go. I agree with you the system is very weak given how many losses racked up under DontCarington.
I’m not sure how they function though is what I’m saying? I’ve seen reporting that suggests that their front office is very involved in game day decisions, but not to what degree? There’s been reporting that front offices will dictate pitching changes and other in game strategy decisions, but I’m not sure how onerous ours is in that regard.
I was asking a general question if this was going on, relative to reporting I’ve seen regarding arrangements in other front offices. Obviously, any front office, including ours, has a healthy amount of input in the decision making. It’s just the nature of the game today. So I wasn’t sure to what level it went with ours. Mr Clinton indicated in another comment that BC said the in game decisions are Shelty’s, so that’s fair enough.
No. I was asking, as I hadn’t heard him say that. That’s good enough for me.
Now, I’m sure the front office still gets a healthy amount of input, even if the final decisions rest with him, as there appears to be a healthy amount of philosophical agreement between the front office and coaching staff. Obviously that’s a good thing, to a degree, but sometimes I worry it leads to group thinking and stubbornness to move on from things that aren’t working.
Pirates are a flawed team. Not enough depth to the lineup and bullpen. But they are a scrappy team who plays hard every day. Unfortunately they don’t play as smart as they do hard some games.
Yesterday was a prime example. Shelton should’ve pulled Holderman and caused Truvello to pinch hit Grichuk when Beeks was brought into face Joc.
And most egregiously, Shelton should not have taken the bat out of IKF’s hands in 9th inning. He already had two xbh’s. He’s not used to sacrifice bunting, he’s used to mashing lefties!
Shelton is still an Apprentice Manager - still learning the craft after 4 + years! Giving up outs when you are down 1 in the 9th is a decision that has hair all over it. And, it is a huge "Vote of No Confidence" to the batter who already has 2 EBH in the game.
RH hitter Billy Cook with a nice HR to RC yesterday at AAA against a RH pitcher. He is listed as a 3B, but he played a lot of 1B (300+ innings) for the Orioles AAA ballclub. He's 25 and if we traded for him to watch him develop in AAA, then we should have just not made the trade!
That said, he's never been a rated prospect over at FG, not even a prospect of note. There's something in his profile that they don't think translates. I'd be interested in hearing Longenhagen's take on Cook.
Coming out of a college (Pepperdine) that is not usually in the Top 25 could be strike one, and playing in a Minor League System like B'more's could be strike two - probably 10 to 15 better prospects to highlight. He's like a "Tweener" that could be a steal, or just another MiLB guy who could not make the adjustment to MLB. He was definitely not going to get the MLB opportunity for the Orioles
"Older 2B/OF with above-average power and 2024 K% improvement." Ok, if there's a k% improvement, where's the prospect grade improvement? Still have him as a 35 in the trade deadline rankings. May just be another not enough eyeballs thing for FG.
Brenton Doyle this year alone. Ranked the Rockies 19th prospect and a 40 FV and is on pace for a 4-4.5 fWAR season this year. Tyler Fitzgerald is another one. 35+ and org ranked 26 on his way to a 3+ fWAR season. There are a few other guys who get to a lot of their value on defense I'll ignore because I don't personally like defensive value first players. Jhonkensy Noel could be another more minor miss but it's a bit early to proclaim and he's a DH so he's a weaker case. FG misses on a few guys every year. Everyone does.
I agree with the "older 2B", but he's getting a lot of play this year at 1B. Our RH hitting 1B, Connor Joe, is hitting .188 for June and July in 117 AB, 5 doubles, 1 HR. Had VG numbers in April/May, but?
I would like to see us get into the playoffs, but we still have to fill gaps for 2025 and 1B and CF are two areas of need.
The optimist in me says the last sentence is true! Probably too much hope but the O's system is so deep that im hoping he just got lost in the shuffle and we got at least an average big leaguer there
Mets 0 GB Cardinals 1.5 GB Pirates 2.0 GB Giants 3.0 GB. Despite the loss, looking at the standings, all is not lost. These are 4 flawed teams and will all blow games (and it is not certain somebody above or somebody below will change this view). The reason I am posting this is simple. It is August 5 and Pirates are 2 games out, that is not an optimistic or pessimistic statement, but 2 games is not intimidating. Yes.. the next 9 games (6 Padres and 3 Dodgers) is kind of a survival test. I appreciate the target wins that are needed, but one of these teams could take off or we could be here in late September with 4 .500 teams mediocreing (made up a word I think) their way to the finish line.
They need to take 2 of every three game series and at least split every 4 game series going forward to have much hope of winning the last wildcard. I don't think Derek can hold them together to do that.
If they can get through the next 9 without burying themselves, they'll have a chance to make up some ground. The schedule starts to get a little bit better for them.
No Keller or Skenes in the SD series, but they'll have both for the LAD series.
They desperately need early season Jones back. He's pitched a couple sim games and that usually means a return is imminent.
I think I heard that today they would have discussion of another sim game vs send to rehab starts in the minors, hoping that means within a few weeks hes back up
Grandal had leg injury after 9th inning AB. Will be interested to get an update on him.......but that may not happen til 1 hour before gametime on Tues. Who comes up.....Hank or Delay?
Delay
Joc hit a 99 mph pitch by Holderman oppo field, so just like Bell taking Chapman 102.9 deep in game 1 you have to give the hitters their due.
Holderman has been All-Star level until his last 4 outings. I'm not concerned, as long as his arm is healthy. Is there fatigue there....maybe.
I am concerned about Holderman, but those two specific batted ball events are tail outcomes.
I’m less bothered by the home run itself than the two walks that occurred before hand. Joc is on a tear right now, you have to get those outs before he walks up to the plate and get out of that inning.
Come on now. The game’s on the line, you’ve got a struggling pitcher who’s having trouble throwing strikes, one of the Dbacks best hitters up who struggles against lefties, a lefty ready in the pen and you leave Holderman in the game to pitch to Pederson? What manager does that?
Pederson just saw Beeks for a 9-pitch AB the prior game, and was right on him, hitting 2 foul HRs before walking. Chapman was unavailable after 2 games in a row. So which lefty did you want Shelton to use........Falter, Marco??
Loved how Wehner was incredulous about Lovello sac bunting trailing by 2 runs and handing Bucs and Holderman and out. Bad managing. But Joc hits the 3 run dinger and all is forgotten.
We just don't have the lineup than can regularly overcome Shelton's gaffes.
I'd rather Wehner manage this team than Shelton.
I am all for questioning our decisions to bunt in key situations, but I also really hung up on how terrible we are at the skill of bunting itself. The Dbacks' backup C put a perfect one down yesterday against us, Im just incredulous how bad we are at it in addition to when we decide to do it
How much does a near .300 hitter practice something he’s asked to do a couple times a year? I would be shocked to hear IKF practices sacrifice bunting anywhere near as often as any backup Catcher.
Don Kelly has to talk Shelton out of that decision. Both of them need to know Jay Bell isn’t on this team. It’s unfair to IKF to expect him to do something he’s ill prepared to do.
No idea how much he practices it and probably none of us do. Just feel like each guy should be throwing down a bunt or two every cage/bp session
As a more than willing Cherington basher, I have to admit that he’s made some logical moves lately and put together a team that’s on the verge of contending along with a farm system with a lot of potential. He must now be willing to acknowledge that the manager he chose to do his bidding during the lean times is not up to managing a contending team.
Shelton has always been in over his head but it didn’t matter much when losing was the expected outcome regardless. It matters now and while it’s easy to point out specific players responsible for specific losses these days the way this team plays and the mechanical way it’s managed has to change if it has any chance of winning anything. They need a motivational and experienced leader who knows what moves to make and how to get the best from his players. Who that might be can be debated, but it’s not Derek Shelton.
What’s odd is that he had shown an ability to make 3D game decisions over the previous week. He didn’t revolutionize the game or anything, but indicated he might be learning a little about how to manage with the big boys.
Then he goes back to being a shitty Commodore 64 simulator
I think you're right on the money Doc. As an example the Cubs 10 years ago fired Rick Renteria when it was deemed he wasn't up to the task of taking a young promising roster to it's potential. I see similarities with the Bucs however the Cubs were led by Theo Epstein and I'm not sure BC has what it takes to take the needed next steps.
As an initial Cherington supporter, turned critic, I somewhat disagree. The farm system is incredibly mediocre for having years of high picks. One recent ranking had them 19. I won’t reiterate my position on the trades, but let’s say the team is substantially better than they were on July 30th.
It’s hard for me to blame Derek Shelton. He’s been handed flawed roster after flawed roster. He’s handcuffed by a decision making process that’s largely run out of the same front office assembling the flawed rosters.
I certainly agree that Shelton hasn’t had anything to work with over the years, and that’s 100% on the GM and the big nut in the penthouse, but this team has some pieces and is closer to an actual major league roster but continues to lose too many games that could and should be won. Unless you believe Cherington’s in his ear calling all of the plays and moves, which I can’t think anyone believes, those decisions fall on the manager. Shelton might be a total lackey for Cherington or maybe he just has no clue (maybe both), but either way things need to change.
There’d be no chance of getting a decent manager if BC has and wants to continue to have full control of what happens on the field. A good manager wouldn’t take the job if he didn’t have the freedom to manage the team on field team as he saw fit. If Shelton’s really willing to give up that control to his boss, that’s all the more reason a change has to happen. It ultimately will come down to the GM though if for no other reason than he’s the one who will be making the decision.
To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that Cherington was calling all the moves. There are setups throughout the league where the FO does micromanage in some instances. The Mets GM was called out a few years back for dictating some pitching changes to the manager. Some managers, like Joe Maddon, have complained about FO interference. I suspect, upon reflection, that in our instance, perhaps such an arrangement wouldn’t be necessary as the GM and manager are largely philosophically aligned it seems.
I blame both guys but Shelton's bullpen management and bunting obsession is 100% on him and he needs to go. I agree with you the system is very weak given how many losses racked up under DontCarington.
I’m not sure how they function though is what I’m saying? I’ve seen reporting that suggests that their front office is very involved in game day decisions, but not to what degree? There’s been reporting that front offices will dictate pitching changes and other in game strategy decisions, but I’m not sure how onerous ours is in that regard.
There's no indication that BC micromanages Shelton.
Do you have a link?
I was asking a general question if this was going on, relative to reporting I’ve seen regarding arrangements in other front offices. Obviously, any front office, including ours, has a healthy amount of input in the decision making. It’s just the nature of the game today. So I wasn’t sure to what level it went with ours. Mr Clinton indicated in another comment that BC said the in game decisions are Shelty’s, so that’s fair enough.
Cherington says all the in game stuff and the lineup is Shelton's to manage on the record. Do you have countervailing info?
No. I was asking, as I hadn’t heard him say that. That’s good enough for me.
Now, I’m sure the front office still gets a healthy amount of input, even if the final decisions rest with him, as there appears to be a healthy amount of philosophical agreement between the front office and coaching staff. Obviously that’s a good thing, to a degree, but sometimes I worry it leads to group thinking and stubbornness to move on from things that aren’t working.
fair enough. Speculation on your end.
Skip Shumaker? Asked the Marlins to void the option on his contract: https://www.si.com/mlb/marlins/news/miami-marlins-skip-schumaker-requested-contract-change
Nice blurb on BA about Yorke. They think he’ll be a pretty tough out as he makes a lot of good contact.
Pirates are a flawed team. Not enough depth to the lineup and bullpen. But they are a scrappy team who plays hard every day. Unfortunately they don’t play as smart as they do hard some games.
Yesterday was a prime example. Shelton should’ve pulled Holderman and caused Truvello to pinch hit Grichuk when Beeks was brought into face Joc.
And most egregiously, Shelton should not have taken the bat out of IKF’s hands in 9th inning. He already had two xbh’s. He’s not used to sacrifice bunting, he’s used to mashing lefties!
Shelton is still an Apprentice Manager - still learning the craft after 4 + years! Giving up outs when you are down 1 in the 9th is a decision that has hair all over it. And, it is a huge "Vote of No Confidence" to the batter who already has 2 EBH in the game.
RH hitter Billy Cook with a nice HR to RC yesterday at AAA against a RH pitcher. He is listed as a 3B, but he played a lot of 1B (300+ innings) for the Orioles AAA ballclub. He's 25 and if we traded for him to watch him develop in AAA, then we should have just not made the trade!
I want to get excited about Billy Cook...
That said, he's never been a rated prospect over at FG, not even a prospect of note. There's something in his profile that they don't think translates. I'd be interested in hearing Longenhagen's take on Cook.
At this point, he just old(er).
My take as well. Hope we're wrong
Coming out of a college (Pepperdine) that is not usually in the Top 25 could be strike one, and playing in a Minor League System like B'more's could be strike two - probably 10 to 15 better prospects to highlight. He's like a "Tweener" that could be a steal, or just another MiLB guy who could not make the adjustment to MLB. He was definitely not going to get the MLB opportunity for the Orioles
He's getting dinged for age too.
"Older 2B/OF with above-average power and 2024 K% improvement." Ok, if there's a k% improvement, where's the prospect grade improvement? Still have him as a 35 in the trade deadline rankings. May just be another not enough eyeballs thing for FG.
My open question remains. Just one question for you name a single actual good prospect FanGraphs has missed.
You’re all making up silly narratives in order to rationalize why some future org guys you personally like aren’t getting written up.
Brenton Doyle this year alone. Ranked the Rockies 19th prospect and a 40 FV and is on pace for a 4-4.5 fWAR season this year. Tyler Fitzgerald is another one. 35+ and org ranked 26 on his way to a 3+ fWAR season. There are a few other guys who get to a lot of their value on defense I'll ignore because I don't personally like defensive value first players. Jhonkensy Noel could be another more minor miss but it's a bit early to proclaim and he's a DH so he's a weaker case. FG misses on a few guys every year. Everyone does.
I agree with the "older 2B", but he's getting a lot of play this year at 1B. Our RH hitting 1B, Connor Joe, is hitting .188 for June and July in 117 AB, 5 doubles, 1 HR. Had VG numbers in April/May, but?
I would like to see us get into the playoffs, but we still have to fill gaps for 2025 and 1B and CF are two areas of need.
The optimist in me says the last sentence is true! Probably too much hope but the O's system is so deep that im hoping he just got lost in the shuffle and we got at least an average big leaguer there
Mets 0 GB Cardinals 1.5 GB Pirates 2.0 GB Giants 3.0 GB. Despite the loss, looking at the standings, all is not lost. These are 4 flawed teams and will all blow games (and it is not certain somebody above or somebody below will change this view). The reason I am posting this is simple. It is August 5 and Pirates are 2 games out, that is not an optimistic or pessimistic statement, but 2 games is not intimidating. Yes.. the next 9 games (6 Padres and 3 Dodgers) is kind of a survival test. I appreciate the target wins that are needed, but one of these teams could take off or we could be here in late September with 4 .500 teams mediocreing (made up a word I think) their way to the finish line.
Today is Aug 5 and the Pirates are 3.5 games out.
Well.. I brainfarted that one. I think I super imposed the NFL playoff structure (only one first round bye) on MLB. I'll go with that excuse vs. age.
They need to take 2 of every three game series and at least split every 4 game series going forward to have much hope of winning the last wildcard. I don't think Derek can hold them together to do that.
If they can get through the next 9 without burying themselves, they'll have a chance to make up some ground. The schedule starts to get a little bit better for them.
No Keller or Skenes in the SD series, but they'll have both for the LAD series.
They desperately need early season Jones back. He's pitched a couple sim games and that usually means a return is imminent.
I think I heard that today they would have discussion of another sim game vs send to rehab starts in the minors, hoping that means within a few weeks hes back up
Good job on word creation, I like it