Did y’all/yinzers see Hayes publicly called out the HP Umpire yesterday and demanded MLB institute RoboUmps?
I was listening to the Braves broadcast in my car when the pitch in question was thrown and even the Braves announcers said it was the worst ball/strike call they had seen this year.
Sad thing is MLB won’t even address it, let alone do anything about it.
Are there any hitting prospects left in the system? Have there been any breakouts or even many encouraging seasons? All I can think of is Termarr and Cheng, and even those 2 have their warts. (Termarr the SOs, Cheng the dip from Hi-A to AA)
Who else has had a noteworthy year at the plate in your eyes?
Not many, but it was nice to see White get through this season somewhat unscathed. Especially for a dude who basically lost two full years of development. Don’t forget Brannigan, they may have something there too.
Lonnie is a good one, but I can’t trust Brannigan lighting up A ball as a 22 y/o. White, even with those 2 years wiped out, will most likely play in Greensboro next year as a 21 y/o.
That’s fair. Brannigan also has good sized ruby-red flags (K rate at both A hall stops are high). I thought it was a bit odd they left Brannigan at low A for as long as they did, but he’s got legit power (more than half the homers at Greensboro are on the road) and a good glove.
Age-related to league matters for hitters, but I’m not sure as much for White. He was a multi sport guy who likely needed more development time anyway, and the fact that he didn’t crash and burn right away in extended time in low A is encouraging. He might start 24 in low A again.
The overall point you made stands though. The pickings are slim right now.
good points! I am very encouraged by Lonnie, my point above was more to illustrate that Brannigan is barely ahead of him even with all the missed dev time.
Was really hoping to see someone come outta nowhere & breakout, just not this year I guess.
I’m not sure if this was covered elsewhere, but McDaniel posted his Core Rankings on ESPN on Friday. Per his intro, he includes players under contractual control through at least 2025, age isn’t a factor, and it includes projecting for young players and prospects. He groups players on each team in three categories: elite (5+ WAR), above average (3-5 WAR), and solid guys/role players (1.5-3 WAR).
The Bucs ranked 17th. No one in the elite category, and Hayes, Reynolds, Bednar, Cruz, Keller, and Skenes in the above average category. He noted that while the Bucs are progressing, his criticism entering the year is still valid: they haven’t had a non premium acquisition (high amateur bonus or headline trade return) become a key part of their core and the development of that cohort is mixed.
Definitely a fair criticism. I would guess that cruz and skenes have potential to enter the elite category, but probably need at least two elite and just as many above average to make this thing work
Whether or not he’s right only time will tell. But for the Pirates to become legitimate title contenders, they definitely need a couple (or more) elite players.
I’m guessing Skenes and Chandler will be elite TOR type guys who could one day get Cy Young votes.
Yep, they do. It’s something I’ve noted before. They need a guy who isn’t highly regarded via trade, draft or international bonus to break out and be something above average or even better. Marte was a low dollar bonus guy who fit that above average category. Maybe they end up with two back of the bullpen dragons in this draft class with the college arms. I dunno where it will come from, but for this regime to succeed, they’ve gotta get those breakouts from somewhere.
What a neat season it's been down on the farm. There are scads of really good stories running around and just loads of prospects you can really root for.
One thing I'm seeing a lot of is - I don't know what the term for it is - "bullpen game" or something - is this five or more pitchers running out there on a given night. But I seem to see a lot of this in the Pirates minor league affiliates and wonder if it is common across baseball or if it is some kind of movement or change in approach.
I have posited for a long time that the system seemed to have a lot of two-inning type guys who have two good pitches but not the third quality pitch that would make them viable for, say, four innings. I have also posited that the cost of the kinds of studs that win in the playoffs is prohibitive and might it be more effective to have a bunch of decent no-names than it is to have a Madison Baumgardner.
I don't think the Pirates are going here necessarily. I see their rotation being really good very soon with some horses in it. But, similarly, the days of Nolan Ryan are long gone. Pitchers who go the distance? Not anymore. Best you can hope for is a quality start anymore and hope for enough pitchers to give you that performance and have two or even three guys clean up after.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's possible you could compose a team of decent two inning pitchers entirely. Are there any mad scientists out there actually going there, or is that the definition of the Coast League or Low A?
At least for the Pirates, I'd say it's more due to injuries and ineffective starters. They had to pivot Cam Alldred into being a starter rather early into the Triple-A season. Just going off top of my head, they lost Brubaker in spring training that pushed Oviedo into MLB rotation. Burrows got TJS. Veteran starters like Scott Randall never threw an inning. Caleb Smith made 9 starts (10 appearances), and then went down for season. You had prospects like Kyle Nicolas who were promoted, and moved into bullpen from ineffectiveness.
Double-A was kind of the same, with someone like Justin Meis who began the season as a starter, moved into more of a piggy-back. Their best starter Jared Jones got promoted. Got so bad the Pirates brought back Beau Sulser to make a couple starts, and then he moved on to Indy cause they were desperate to fill innnings.
2024 SHOULD look much better, but 2023 showcased a still existing lack of depth/development.
I don't know, man. I thought this season showed much better development than prior seasons under BC.
The following dudes took huge steps in their respective developments...Peguero, Bubba, Shalin, Termarr, Bowen, Cheng, Brannigan, Lonnie White, etc. Then you have guys at the MLB level - Keller, Hayes!, Oviedo, Holderman. Not to mention, it looks like they have Quinn on track and might have something with Ortiz as well. I've given up all hope with Roansy. Kid was a flash in the pan that peaked during the weird season.
Well, when I say lack of depth/development, I mean in the upper levels. They lost a MLB starter (Brubaker), a top depth arm (Burrows), and their starting SS (Cruz). And for much of the season, they were left scrambling to fill the roster with competent players.
Cause, even looking at your list. You just mentioned mostly A-ball players. And with that, I'm still skeptical (mainly with the bats) until they prove it against Double-A. The recent track record of prospects carrying success from High-A to Double-A hasn't been good. Again, it'll have been four years, and we're having to say, "Look at these players in A-ball!"? Those prospects should be ascending to upper levels with an existing core and stable roster intact. They shouldn't be the ones expected to be the core, yet.
Peguero and Endy I'm excited about. I just need to see more before buying in. They still haven't actually shown successfully transitioning prospects to the majors, and getting the most out of them.
Hayes is promising. But... if reporting is to be trusted, it's also not promising. Hayes had to reach out to Jon Nunnally? In that case, they better can Haines (I know they've said he's "safe"), and give the gig to Nunnally.
Ortiz, ehh, we'll see. He had 5 swings and misses yesterday. He's throwing harder again, but he isn't missing bats. Oviedo is fine. He's likely a stable backend starter, and that's fantastic, but they Pirates need more. Just like with Jack Suwinski. He's fine, he's a "success". They need more than what Jack brings. They have more actual good players than they did, but it's still lacking a punch.
As I've written and commented in a couple places, I think it'll look different next year with regards to pitching, cause they have pitching prospects who actually have top shelf "stuff". I'm still just in a place now where I'm not sure they fully know what they're doing. It feels more like they spent four years just to get back to where they already were.
Well... I think they have improved in their development of pitching. The one-size-fits-all, everyone-must-pitch-to-contact of Huntington was a disaster, so anything would be an improvement. The real question is whether their current staff is the best possible that they could acquire, and in that sense, at least at the major league level, I doubt it. It almost seems to me that they are learning on the job (and I am giving them credit for learning at least, which may be more credit than they deserve). If you will remember, when this group came in, they insisted that Keller drop the pitch-to-contact style and work high in the zone almost exclusively going heavy four-seamer, sweeper. They had him bang his head against a wall for 2+ years trying to use his sweeper like a curveball, throwing four-seamers into the wheelhouse of power hitters, and trying to use an ineffective changeup against lefties. According to Keller, he figured it out mostly on his own, by developing a cutter and going back to pitching to contact, which then, he discovered, opened up his ability to work higher in the zone. So, we shall see, but they seem to have learned from Keller not to be so hard-headed and to allow guys to find what works for them and experiment. Whether this translate to development success in the minors, we shall see.
What also troubles me is the fact it would appear most of their "break-throughs" have been from outside facilities. Which is fine letting players seek additional expertise from facilities like Tread Athletics and Driveline, but, how or what are they doing to supplement it? Maintain it? What purpose does their existing coaching staff serve, if Roansy had to go to Driveline mid-season for corrections? If Hayes had to call upon Nunnallly mid-season? Is the expectation for outside facilities to develop their prospects? Is the intent for Haines and Marin to then learn the techniques from the players? Is Quinn's learning going to just be solely through watching Youtube?
Yeah... I agree. Everyone who is worth their salt learns on the job, but a developmental staff that seems to need to learn everything from scratch defeats the purpose of having a developmental staff. I really think the organization is filled with cronies, and they have admitted as much with respect to Haines (that he is a crony hire).
Most of the pitchers that they acquired this year need mechanical adjustments to realize their potential. They need driveline-style coaching, and the Pirates have not yet proven they can provide such coaching. Cherington seems to think that they can. In fact, he bet his job on it, because if there is not some significant improvement next year and we don't start seeing some of his draft picks reach MLB, I would suspect his head will be on the block. Even Nutting's patience has limits.
Did y’all/yinzers see Hayes publicly called out the HP Umpire yesterday and demanded MLB institute RoboUmps?
I was listening to the Braves broadcast in my car when the pitch in question was thrown and even the Braves announcers said it was the worst ball/strike call they had seen this year.
Sad thing is MLB won’t even address it, let alone do anything about it.
Are there any hitting prospects left in the system? Have there been any breakouts or even many encouraging seasons? All I can think of is Termarr and Cheng, and even those 2 have their warts. (Termarr the SOs, Cheng the dip from Hi-A to AA)
Who else has had a noteworthy year at the plate in your eyes?
Not many, but it was nice to see White get through this season somewhat unscathed. Especially for a dude who basically lost two full years of development. Don’t forget Brannigan, they may have something there too.
Lonnie is a good one, but I can’t trust Brannigan lighting up A ball as a 22 y/o. White, even with those 2 years wiped out, will most likely play in Greensboro next year as a 21 y/o.
That’s fair. Brannigan also has good sized ruby-red flags (K rate at both A hall stops are high). I thought it was a bit odd they left Brannigan at low A for as long as they did, but he’s got legit power (more than half the homers at Greensboro are on the road) and a good glove.
Age-related to league matters for hitters, but I’m not sure as much for White. He was a multi sport guy who likely needed more development time anyway, and the fact that he didn’t crash and burn right away in extended time in low A is encouraging. He might start 24 in low A again.
The overall point you made stands though. The pickings are slim right now.
good points! I am very encouraged by Lonnie, my point above was more to illustrate that Brannigan is barely ahead of him even with all the missed dev time.
Was really hoping to see someone come outta nowhere & breakout, just not this year I guess.
I’m not sure if this was covered elsewhere, but McDaniel posted his Core Rankings on ESPN on Friday. Per his intro, he includes players under contractual control through at least 2025, age isn’t a factor, and it includes projecting for young players and prospects. He groups players on each team in three categories: elite (5+ WAR), above average (3-5 WAR), and solid guys/role players (1.5-3 WAR).
The Bucs ranked 17th. No one in the elite category, and Hayes, Reynolds, Bednar, Cruz, Keller, and Skenes in the above average category. He noted that while the Bucs are progressing, his criticism entering the year is still valid: they haven’t had a non premium acquisition (high amateur bonus or headline trade return) become a key part of their core and the development of that cohort is mixed.
Definitely a fair criticism. I would guess that cruz and skenes have potential to enter the elite category, but probably need at least two elite and just as many above average to make this thing work
I promise I didn't read this before posting my comment below lol I feel like this mostly describes my feelings in short form
Whether or not he’s right only time will tell. But for the Pirates to become legitimate title contenders, they definitely need a couple (or more) elite players.
I’m guessing Skenes and Chandler will be elite TOR type guys who could one day get Cy Young votes.
Yep, they do. It’s something I’ve noted before. They need a guy who isn’t highly regarded via trade, draft or international bonus to break out and be something above average or even better. Marte was a low dollar bonus guy who fit that above average category. Maybe they end up with two back of the bullpen dragons in this draft class with the college arms. I dunno where it will come from, but for this regime to succeed, they’ve gotta get those breakouts from somewhere.
Murphy is so excited to write the name Carlos Jimenez
Brought me so much joy lol
I know he was injured.. what was it? a shoulder?
Cautiously optimistic for '24. Think he'll go to Greensboro?
I am equally as excited to read that name
What a neat season it's been down on the farm. There are scads of really good stories running around and just loads of prospects you can really root for.
One thing I'm seeing a lot of is - I don't know what the term for it is - "bullpen game" or something - is this five or more pitchers running out there on a given night. But I seem to see a lot of this in the Pirates minor league affiliates and wonder if it is common across baseball or if it is some kind of movement or change in approach.
I have posited for a long time that the system seemed to have a lot of two-inning type guys who have two good pitches but not the third quality pitch that would make them viable for, say, four innings. I have also posited that the cost of the kinds of studs that win in the playoffs is prohibitive and might it be more effective to have a bunch of decent no-names than it is to have a Madison Baumgardner.
I don't think the Pirates are going here necessarily. I see their rotation being really good very soon with some horses in it. But, similarly, the days of Nolan Ryan are long gone. Pitchers who go the distance? Not anymore. Best you can hope for is a quality start anymore and hope for enough pitchers to give you that performance and have two or even three guys clean up after.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's possible you could compose a team of decent two inning pitchers entirely. Are there any mad scientists out there actually going there, or is that the definition of the Coast League or Low A?
At least for the Pirates, I'd say it's more due to injuries and ineffective starters. They had to pivot Cam Alldred into being a starter rather early into the Triple-A season. Just going off top of my head, they lost Brubaker in spring training that pushed Oviedo into MLB rotation. Burrows got TJS. Veteran starters like Scott Randall never threw an inning. Caleb Smith made 9 starts (10 appearances), and then went down for season. You had prospects like Kyle Nicolas who were promoted, and moved into bullpen from ineffectiveness.
Double-A was kind of the same, with someone like Justin Meis who began the season as a starter, moved into more of a piggy-back. Their best starter Jared Jones got promoted. Got so bad the Pirates brought back Beau Sulser to make a couple starts, and then he moved on to Indy cause they were desperate to fill innnings.
2024 SHOULD look much better, but 2023 showcased a still existing lack of depth/development.
Nick Dombkowski too lol. Went from undrafted free agent reliever to throwing 80+ innings this year.
I don't know, man. I thought this season showed much better development than prior seasons under BC.
The following dudes took huge steps in their respective developments...Peguero, Bubba, Shalin, Termarr, Bowen, Cheng, Brannigan, Lonnie White, etc. Then you have guys at the MLB level - Keller, Hayes!, Oviedo, Holderman. Not to mention, it looks like they have Quinn on track and might have something with Ortiz as well. I've given up all hope with Roansy. Kid was a flash in the pan that peaked during the weird season.
Well, when I say lack of depth/development, I mean in the upper levels. They lost a MLB starter (Brubaker), a top depth arm (Burrows), and their starting SS (Cruz). And for much of the season, they were left scrambling to fill the roster with competent players.
Cause, even looking at your list. You just mentioned mostly A-ball players. And with that, I'm still skeptical (mainly with the bats) until they prove it against Double-A. The recent track record of prospects carrying success from High-A to Double-A hasn't been good. Again, it'll have been four years, and we're having to say, "Look at these players in A-ball!"? Those prospects should be ascending to upper levels with an existing core and stable roster intact. They shouldn't be the ones expected to be the core, yet.
Peguero and Endy I'm excited about. I just need to see more before buying in. They still haven't actually shown successfully transitioning prospects to the majors, and getting the most out of them.
Hayes is promising. But... if reporting is to be trusted, it's also not promising. Hayes had to reach out to Jon Nunnally? In that case, they better can Haines (I know they've said he's "safe"), and give the gig to Nunnally.
Ortiz, ehh, we'll see. He had 5 swings and misses yesterday. He's throwing harder again, but he isn't missing bats. Oviedo is fine. He's likely a stable backend starter, and that's fantastic, but they Pirates need more. Just like with Jack Suwinski. He's fine, he's a "success". They need more than what Jack brings. They have more actual good players than they did, but it's still lacking a punch.
As I've written and commented in a couple places, I think it'll look different next year with regards to pitching, cause they have pitching prospects who actually have top shelf "stuff". I'm still just in a place now where I'm not sure they fully know what they're doing. It feels more like they spent four years just to get back to where they already were.
Well... I think they have improved in their development of pitching. The one-size-fits-all, everyone-must-pitch-to-contact of Huntington was a disaster, so anything would be an improvement. The real question is whether their current staff is the best possible that they could acquire, and in that sense, at least at the major league level, I doubt it. It almost seems to me that they are learning on the job (and I am giving them credit for learning at least, which may be more credit than they deserve). If you will remember, when this group came in, they insisted that Keller drop the pitch-to-contact style and work high in the zone almost exclusively going heavy four-seamer, sweeper. They had him bang his head against a wall for 2+ years trying to use his sweeper like a curveball, throwing four-seamers into the wheelhouse of power hitters, and trying to use an ineffective changeup against lefties. According to Keller, he figured it out mostly on his own, by developing a cutter and going back to pitching to contact, which then, he discovered, opened up his ability to work higher in the zone. So, we shall see, but they seem to have learned from Keller not to be so hard-headed and to allow guys to find what works for them and experiment. Whether this translate to development success in the minors, we shall see.
What also troubles me is the fact it would appear most of their "break-throughs" have been from outside facilities. Which is fine letting players seek additional expertise from facilities like Tread Athletics and Driveline, but, how or what are they doing to supplement it? Maintain it? What purpose does their existing coaching staff serve, if Roansy had to go to Driveline mid-season for corrections? If Hayes had to call upon Nunnallly mid-season? Is the expectation for outside facilities to develop their prospects? Is the intent for Haines and Marin to then learn the techniques from the players? Is Quinn's learning going to just be solely through watching Youtube?
Yeah... I agree. Everyone who is worth their salt learns on the job, but a developmental staff that seems to need to learn everything from scratch defeats the purpose of having a developmental staff. I really think the organization is filled with cronies, and they have admitted as much with respect to Haines (that he is a crony hire).
Most of the pitchers that they acquired this year need mechanical adjustments to realize their potential. They need driveline-style coaching, and the Pirates have not yet proven they can provide such coaching. Cherington seems to think that they can. In fact, he bet his job on it, because if there is not some significant improvement next year and we don't start seeing some of his draft picks reach MLB, I would suspect his head will be on the block. Even Nutting's patience has limits.
I’m kinda with you here. Some good, some bad...as always, we wish it were all good news, but that ain’t the way baseball works.
Maybe the Major League franchise should change its name to the Pittsburgh Injuries and Ineffective Starters..
Probably should. Trying to do it in majors as well with Hatch, Jackson, Falter, and more.
I am Groot.