Are we right back to Dennis Eckersley's quote: "You talk about a no-name lineup. There's no team like this. This is a hodgepodge of nothingness. It's ridiculous. It really is. Pathetic." That Red Sox lineup this weekend was missing a few starters, but that was a no-name lineup.....and they kicked the Pirates ass.
The Orioles have the best offense in baseball led almost exclusively by homegrown bats.
The interesting part of that is that their two worst players, by far, are the only two they rushed through the minors. Austin Hayes and Jackson Holiday.
Adley, Cowser, Mountcastle, Westburg, O'Hearn all were at least 23 with significant AAA time under their belt and nearly all immediately were able to contribute.
Their only truly young promotion success is Henderson who was up at 22 but also still kept in AAA for significant time.
Cowser is an interesting case. You could argue the Orioles rushed him last year as he hit .115 with 0 homers in 61 at bats. This year he is hitting .373 with 5 homers in 51 at bats.
Back on April 13 the PG ran an article about how the Pirates were confident that they could avoid long losing streaks due to the veterans they brought in. Shelton jumped at the opportunity to take credit for their roster building:
“The one thing we’ve talked about is we were very intentional with the veterans we brought in for different reasons,” Shelton said. “Talent, Number 1, and how they’re going to help us on the field. Number 2, how they’re going to be with our young guys, and Number 3, that point specifically, guys who have been on the field the last day of the season, that’s really important. Those guys know how to go through ups and downs during a season. They know how to struggle and realize that they’re coming out on the other end. That was very important for us.”
Facing the class of the division the next four games would seem to be a good time for those veterans to demonstrate "coming out the other end".
I'm afraid the catching has really gotten the best of him over the year. The White Sox went from 93 wins to 81 wins to 61 wins with Grandal and now we are bringing him in to lead. If it were the other way around, I would buy iit.
I think baseball had a hot streak where guys like Acuna, Tatis, Julio Rodriguez and Wander Franco came up and did well. Your examples are better examples for realistic expecations.
Looking at my examples, some of those guys could have benefited by spending more time in the minors. I agree with you.
There's been this pervasive false narrative that it's a young man's game now and owners are both cheap and cheating fans by "manipulating service time", one almost exclusively built on the backs of a historically good group of a handful of players in their early 20s and a feckless media incessantly pushing drama wherever they can.
The full story - the reality of the situation - is that the overall number of big leaguers has exploded due almost exclusively to the increased rostering of prospects, the majority of whom absolutely suck, over actual big leaguers.
Think about this. If you knew you only had a hitter in the majors for 6 years, wouldn't you rather have his bat ages 25 to 31 as opposed to ages 20 to 26. If teams really wanted to manipulate, they would keep guys in the minors for the maximum time allowed.
Once a guy gets to about 2 1/2 stars overall for position players though, in my experience you have a limited time, maybe a year at the most, to bring them up before they start to decline: especially power hitters. It just seems hard to get guys above a 50 grade power rating in the minors, unless you have your whole coaching system set up for power. Some older guys- 25 and up- can hang on for a while AAA, especially catchers, before they start to decline. Most of the vets aging out of the league fall off immediately though in AAA. It just seems to follow the basic algorithm that penalizes you for keeping guys in age-inappropriate leagues for which they are too good. The same will happen with your complex league and A-ball guys if they have to repeat more than once.
So I do target power hitters and have my system set up for that. But, the new version everything is thrown out the window. My old tricks don’t work, as they completely overhauled the ratings and player development.
Depends on the situation. With the better prospects I always either A.) manipulate service time OR B.) sign guys to long term extensions. I shoot for 24 or 25 at the latest if I’m manipulating service time, that way they are controlled through the age 30/31 seasons. A lot of times if I’m waiting till age 25 it’s because I already have a good cost controlled player at the position, that I end up trading for more prospects to start the process all over again.
I shouldn't have posted below on the Cruz thread. Honestly I don't know if they(this is well beyond one player) need Kirk Gibson or Johnny Damon to show up. They are making mistakes on plays they have been making for years no matter where they learned the game (my daughter always reminds me of that when some announcer praises somebody for making a play she was taught at 11 years old). I don't know if they are all feeling the pressure and are tight as drums (a lot of people laugh when they are stressed / feeling pressure) or if they need somebody to get in their faces. Both methods have worked and i do understand the talent level is not that of Gibson's Dodgers or Damon's Red Sox. The Pirate veterans on the field (Hayes and Reynolds) while good players don't seem to be the natural leader types and that is ok... you don't just get annointed.
As much as I love Cutch, he doesn't have the personality or willingness to take a player aside and tell them to quit feeling sorry for yourself. As far as bringing Rowdy in to help lead, from what I have seen he has shown the younger players it is ok to be a lazy ass.
I wish that I shared your optimism about Tellez. In 330 PAs last year, Tellez had the exact same average and OBP as he has put up this year with the Pirates. The only difference between last year and this year is slugging, which would be equal if he had hit 1 more HR this year. This is who Tellez is and who I expected. He stinks, and the Pirates would be much better off with Joe at 1B all year and Tellez sent packing. We can hope for better, and I do, but the sample size is not small when you put together last year with this.
I don’t have an issue with wanting to give Tellez a shot if they liked him. My gripe is with the fact that they didn’t roster a left handed version of Joe with options in the event that this didn’t work out. If Tellez doesn’t hit, you plug that guy in. If Tellez hits you have left handed outfield depth. But they needed a better insurance policy than Jake Lamb/Seth Beer.
Suwinski is looking OK. Lot of bad luck there. Triolo has had some bad luck too. His swing and contact rates are comparable to last year, and I can remember several hard hit balls right at people. Launch angle is a little down. If his BABIP of .420 last year was unsustainable, his .291 BABIP this year is also unsustainable giving the consistent contact and good swing decisions that he makes. He certainly is not going to win any Silver Slugger awards at any position, but he not that bad as a hitter. Triolo and Suwinski are the least of their many problems right now.
I agree that Triolo is running *a bit* cold (about 20 points upside down in xwOBA) but also with you that even correcting for that leaves a pretty uninspiring hitter, well short of league average.
Somebody posted a blooper reel of the Pirates' OF this season on twitter. It makes for some very depressing viewing. I read that they have the worst defensive OF in MLB, despite having Taylor, who is still gold-glove level. Normally, I wouldn't care about defensive stats for 20 games, but that video sort of reinforces the conviction that they do, in fact, have awful OF defense. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication or lack of communication out there with several near collisions and popups dropping between the IF and OF for hits. This is on the coaching staff to fix.... a lot of these fundamental baseball mistakes are on the coaching staff. Yet, nothing is done.
Everyone who wasn't smoking hopium knew the Pirates were going to have a below average offense this season. The only hitter who has shocked us by how bad he has been thus far is Cruz. The major concern that I have is not the lack of hitting; it is the bad baserunning and bad defense. The only chance the Pirates have for a playoff spot is to be rock solid on the bases and in the field to support the only strength of the team: pitching. They need to fix up the baserunning and fielding (and bullpen management) to have any chance of success. The hitting is not going to be fixed now or for the foreseeable future.
Spring training is where outfielders should work through any communication issues. Having Taylor not there to lead the squad during that time had to hurt a little. Also, since the Pirates are not a team that puts the same 9 players out there, the communication and learning to play together takes even more effort. I also think we have some players on the team that aren't being held accountable...... by the coaching staff.
Yes to all of the above. There have been 2 instances of non-communication between Olivares and Taylor. I would be inclined to blame the coaches and lack of spring training for Taylor for this, except the same thing happened repeatedly between Taylor and Olivares in KC. I think some of it is just an Olivares problem.
Cruz is an enigma and they need to get his attention by sending him down.
You can tell by watching him that he's bored...Body language is key with him. He's not having fun, he's pouting. He might have ADD.
If the focus is there, he can play an average short and be a monster in the box. But, not when he's in this state of mind. Send him down, see how he reacts to a little adversity. Sending him down and having him play the OF would be a disaster...remember they tried him in left field for Indy as BC said that was his last box to check and he was terrible out there.
Last year and even this year, I have seen several players that are happy and try when they do well. When they start to slump, they mope and takes a long time to get out of it. Cruz, Hayes, Reynolds, Bae and I might be missing a few.
Losing is a habit. You can see it every day on some of these guys who have been with the team for while (except Reynolds who has some kind of mental fortress and is about the most consistent player and constant personality I think that I have ever seen).
I am probably being unfair to Reynolds since it was only spring training. But 2023 in spring training, he was going through that contract thing and trade request etc. He really looked like he didn't want to be there. I think he went through a 2 for 40 stretch or something before finishing strong. Then again, it was only spring training.
Let's put Reynolds into a real-world perspective. Imagine if, for the past 5 years, you worked at a company were everyone except you sucked at their jobs and anyone who was any good was transferred out; imagine if no one at your workplace was ever held accountable for anything and your boss's only concern was being liked by everyone; then imagine that, when you ask for a pay raise, you are given the run-around. How would you feel? Because that is the position that the guy has been in for 5 years now. I have the highest respect for him as a player and person.
Honest request: make it a point to note on this board the next time you see a big leaguer ra-ra'ng their teammates while getting their teeth kicked in during a slump.
They shouldn't. But if you see an old guy like Cutch still busting his ass to first on a ground out. Maybe you can run a little harder as well. I did see Alex Cora 2 nights ago, go out to the mound and rip into Kutter Crawford for walking a guy with a 4 to 1 lead. Jared Jones said Henry Davis will come out and start swearing at him, if he is not concentratiing.
A product of the showcasification of player development.
Oneil Cruz has never, ever shown the ability to be a Major League shortstop precisely because of the insane level of consistency necessary to succeed at the highest level. This is the part of successful player dev that isn't simply a quick box to check before pushing a player up the latter as quickly as possible. It takes time and patience, which is so not 2024.
What he's done is shown the ability to make plays in limited settings. He's a showcase player.
I have nothing to back up this thought, but i feel like he was pouting in the OF and could actually be good if he gave a shit enough to dedicate to getting better
The body language is the same as it's always been thru the minors. If a guy doesn't mature after a season ending injury and all the rehab that was required,
and have a more positive mindset getting back to the show.......then there may indeed be other issues. Sports psychology is a HUGE field today, but has Bob and Ben hired anyone in that capacity?
After he dropped the infield popup, he was in the dugout laughing about it with his Latin buddies. Enough of the I don't give a sh*t attitude and grow up.
I agree with 1979 and agree there could be other avenues (psychologists?) that could help if he can't keep focused. However, I don't believe for one second he thought dropping a popup was funny. Whether competitive sports or beer leagues, people react in different ways when they make a boneheaded play. Sometimes laughing it off is a way to do that. I don't doubt he may need help with pressure getting to him / focusing etc.. but by all accounts he worked hard to get back on the field. I don't think this is a joke to him.
You're right. I'm the type of person, if I'm struggling like that, I'm not laughing or joking around, or even talking to anyone. I'm sitting by myself, staring straight ahead, trying to figure out why I suck so bad and how I can make adjustments. After the game, I'd be watching tons of video.
Fair enough.. i have been both at times. I know I have been on teams (no where this level) where you kind of raz each other out of tightness but also have been where you need to vent and show emotions. Despite our high expectations , I just don't think you get as far as he has without doing the last sentence either by yourself or with a coach. Not saying he has done it as much as he should, but pure talent without dedication doesn't get to MLB.
Seems like we are seeing how Cruz reacts to adversity right now. He missed a year due to a bad injury. He’s one of the organization’s most talented guys, and the Pirates are a young, mid tier team, at best. You need to see what this guy can do against MLB pitchers. Maybe he sits a bit more, but I would not send him down. As for his mindset and his level of focus, not sure if that can be fully assessed due to body language on TV or at a game. Reynolds often looks like he’s ready to fall asleep, but he’s obviously a very productive player. I understand the frustration with Cruz, but we simply must find out THIS year what he means for this team.
Well... if he is their big, superstar future talent, something needs to happen, because he is a major contributor to the garbage pile of baseball they have played recently. 86 ABs is starting to approach a reasonable sample before you start thinking about sending a guy down. I would give him another 4 or 5 games, and if nothing changes, then send him to the minors. He is hurting the team at this point badly. Of course, the same could be said for a lot of guys, including those giving him pointers.
I would have certainly taken 11-11 at this point at the start of the season, but certainly don’t like the way they arrived here. I figured both Davis and Cruz would struggle to start the season. Hopefully they get the ship turned around this week.
Not really. He had good baseball people in place he constantly overruled and made the team worse. Some moves (Reggie) worked. Many did not. A big reason their 90’s dynasty came to be is because he was suspended. For the second time.
Steinbrenner was born on third base and acted like he hit a triple.
I’d argue Yankees underachieved to a certain degree due to a lack of stability and a crappy culture for much of his tenure as Owner. Definitely had some great teams, but also had an unprecedented period of bad baseball teams for nearly all of 80’s and early 90’s.
LHSP Eric Lauer leading the way with the most Whiffs with 14 on the way to a 68 pitch, 5 inning shutout, giving up ZERO hits, striking out 8, and a 5-0 GO/FO - is there anything else a pitcher can do to influence the outcome of a game? I think he is going to find his way to Pittsburgh soon. Might catch a ride with his Catcher, Yasmani Grandal who had a big day also going 2-4 with 3 RBI.
Be interesting to see what happens with Joey Bart when Grandal comes back. Bart is 5-16, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 4 BB, OPS+ of 237 (about equal to the sum of his OPS+ the previous 4 years). Already a 0.4 WAR.
Javier Rivas at BRD has had a season full of extra base, RBI hits the past few games. I think everybody thinks he can be/is a solid SS defensively, if only the bat comes around on a consistent basis. Watched him 2 years ago at Pirate City taking BP and peppering the parking lot of the Golf Course behind Center on the first field on the right as you walk in. 6'6" manchild with little, if any, fat on the bones.
From the sounds of it, YG will have a longer rehab due to a limited spring training. If Davis is still struggling, there’s no world where you keep him with the big club. Sometimes these decisions just work themselves out.
The Pirates could be in the catbird seat if they decided to spend some time with the two New York Teams to find out which would give the most for Joey Bart. Austin Wells, 24, was the first round pick of the Yankees a few years ago, but he is 3 for 33 so far at MLB, and could probably use another 2 or 3 months at AAA. And with the Mets, Francisco Alvarez is out for at least 2 months and the remaining Catchers for the Mets leave much to be desired.
Two teams with a need for a veteran Catcher - can BC take advantage and get us something we need for the future?
No one is going to give up more than a random nothing prospect for Bart: same as what the Pirates gave up. Two HRs in a 4-game sample with the Pirates does not fundamentally change his value from 0 to more than 0.
It's been a few days since the Pirates bad performances were blamed on this beauty instead of there talent level, waiting for this one to re-surface... "Shelton trying to be the smartest guy in the room".... always a crowd favorite🤷♂️🤷♂️🤣🤣
Shelton's not the reason they've lost six straight, though I fault him for one of the losses in that streak. But even his wife talks about how stubborn he is which is characteristic of "smartest guy in the room" syndrome. And that shouldn't even be surprising given that the all-time great "smartest guy in the room" is Joe Maddon, who Shelton frequently cites as his role model. So no, it's not fair to blame Shelton but it's also okay to acknowledge certain personality characteristics that may raise questions about his leadership.
The bigger concern, as you suggest, is that we're in year 5 of the rebuild and we're still having to question the talent level. I actually think our talent level is okay, they're just pressing and someone needs to step up. There were numerous stories from the media about how guys like Tellez and Perez and Chapman would help them avoid long losing streaks this year. Instead, Chapman loses his cool and gets tossed, Tellez loses his cool and breaks his bat, and yesterday's game story noted how frustrated Perez was. Doesn't sound like the leadership we need to help keep the young guys from pressing.
I know Casey Stengel couldn't turn this roster into a true threat but that being said... Shelton might be my least favorite Pirates manager going back to Leyland. He bothers me THAT much.
Personally, I’d mostly blame it on ‘baseball’. It does stuff like this sometimes. They weren’t nine-of-first-eleven good, nor are they six in a row bad 🤷♂️
I will admit I am ready for the pendulum to head more back the other way though! 😁
Are we right back to Dennis Eckersley's quote: "You talk about a no-name lineup. There's no team like this. This is a hodgepodge of nothingness. It's ridiculous. It really is. Pathetic." That Red Sox lineup this weekend was missing a few starters, but that was a no-name lineup.....and they kicked the Pirates ass.
The Orioles have the best offense in baseball led almost exclusively by homegrown bats.
The interesting part of that is that their two worst players, by far, are the only two they rushed through the minors. Austin Hayes and Jackson Holiday.
Adley, Cowser, Mountcastle, Westburg, O'Hearn all were at least 23 with significant AAA time under their belt and nearly all immediately were able to contribute.
Their only truly young promotion success is Henderson who was up at 22 but also still kept in AAA for significant time.
Cowser is an interesting case. You could argue the Orioles rushed him last year as he hit .115 with 0 homers in 61 at bats. This year he is hitting .373 with 5 homers in 51 at bats.
Back on April 13 the PG ran an article about how the Pirates were confident that they could avoid long losing streaks due to the veterans they brought in. Shelton jumped at the opportunity to take credit for their roster building:
“The one thing we’ve talked about is we were very intentional with the veterans we brought in for different reasons,” Shelton said. “Talent, Number 1, and how they’re going to help us on the field. Number 2, how they’re going to be with our young guys, and Number 3, that point specifically, guys who have been on the field the last day of the season, that’s really important. Those guys know how to go through ups and downs during a season. They know how to struggle and realize that they’re coming out on the other end. That was very important for us.”
Facing the class of the division the next four games would seem to be a good time for those veterans to demonstrate "coming out the other end".
I agree, missing Yasmani Grandal has been a huge impact. ;)
I'm afraid the catching has really gotten the best of him over the year. The White Sox went from 93 wins to 81 wins to 61 wins with Grandal and now we are bringing him in to lead. If it were the other way around, I would buy iit.
Might not ease anyone's mind but lots of baseball-is-hard shit going around right now.
-Jackson Holiday is like the worst hitter through his first 10 games in baseball history.
-Neto and Schanuel falling on their faces to start their second seasons through the league.
-Jordan Walker sucks.
-Red Sox just committed $50m to a centerfielder who looks like he can't hit.
-Wyatt Langford can't really play the field and has just two extra base hits in nearly 100 attempts to start his big league career.
I think baseball had a hot streak where guys like Acuna, Tatis, Julio Rodriguez and Wander Franco came up and did well. Your examples are better examples for realistic expecations.
Looking at my examples, some of those guys could have benefited by spending more time in the minors. I agree with you.
Finally found a kindred spirit!!
You're exactly right.
There's been this pervasive false narrative that it's a young man's game now and owners are both cheap and cheating fans by "manipulating service time", one almost exclusively built on the backs of a historically good group of a handful of players in their early 20s and a feckless media incessantly pushing drama wherever they can.
The full story - the reality of the situation - is that the overall number of big leaguers has exploded due almost exclusively to the increased rostering of prospects, the majority of whom absolutely suck, over actual big leaguers.
Think about this. If you knew you only had a hitter in the majors for 6 years, wouldn't you rather have his bat ages 25 to 31 as opposed to ages 20 to 26. If teams really wanted to manipulate, they would keep guys in the minors for the maximum time allowed.
I’d rather have 23-29.
Yes. This is why the CBA implemented Rule 5. Either roster the player or he'll be claimed by another org.
And a good rule. Does that rule go by x amount of years in the minors/
We need to start our own study on this. I'm guessing it depends on the type of hitter. I bet pitchers are different than hitters as well.
Sometimes when I play out of the park baseball I do this very thing.
Once a guy gets to about 2 1/2 stars overall for position players though, in my experience you have a limited time, maybe a year at the most, to bring them up before they start to decline: especially power hitters. It just seems hard to get guys above a 50 grade power rating in the minors, unless you have your whole coaching system set up for power. Some older guys- 25 and up- can hang on for a while AAA, especially catchers, before they start to decline. Most of the vets aging out of the league fall off immediately though in AAA. It just seems to follow the basic algorithm that penalizes you for keeping guys in age-inappropriate leagues for which they are too good. The same will happen with your complex league and A-ball guys if they have to repeat more than once.
So I do target power hitters and have my system set up for that. But, the new version everything is thrown out the window. My old tricks don’t work, as they completely overhauled the ratings and player development.
Interesting. Do you have an age you prefer
Depends on the situation. With the better prospects I always either A.) manipulate service time OR B.) sign guys to long term extensions. I shoot for 24 or 25 at the latest if I’m manipulating service time, that way they are controlled through the age 30/31 seasons. A lot of times if I’m waiting till age 25 it’s because I already have a good cost controlled player at the position, that I end up trading for more prospects to start the process all over again.
This actually does ease the pain a bit. Thanks NMR, my pessimism has been tamed a bit
I shouldn't have posted below on the Cruz thread. Honestly I don't know if they(this is well beyond one player) need Kirk Gibson or Johnny Damon to show up. They are making mistakes on plays they have been making for years no matter where they learned the game (my daughter always reminds me of that when some announcer praises somebody for making a play she was taught at 11 years old). I don't know if they are all feeling the pressure and are tight as drums (a lot of people laugh when they are stressed / feeling pressure) or if they need somebody to get in their faces. Both methods have worked and i do understand the talent level is not that of Gibson's Dodgers or Damon's Red Sox. The Pirate veterans on the field (Hayes and Reynolds) while good players don't seem to be the natural leader types and that is ok... you don't just get annointed.
As much as I love Cutch, he doesn't have the personality or willingness to take a player aside and tell them to quit feeling sorry for yourself. As far as bringing Rowdy in to help lead, from what I have seen he has shown the younger players it is ok to be a lazy ass.
Fun Fact: the Pirates currently roll out a primary lineup that contains six of the 50 worst hitters in the league by wRC+ (min. 50 PA).
Can only go up from here.
ebbs and flows...it'll certainly get better, but how much better? Suwinski, I believe is ready to start crushing baseballs. He's been mainly bad luck.
Triolo, Davis, Tellez, Cutch have me really worried.
I still think Cutch and Tellez pull into league-average territory but that's still pretty mid and the other two just might not be able to hit, period.
I wish that I shared your optimism about Tellez. In 330 PAs last year, Tellez had the exact same average and OBP as he has put up this year with the Pirates. The only difference between last year and this year is slugging, which would be equal if he had hit 1 more HR this year. This is who Tellez is and who I expected. He stinks, and the Pirates would be much better off with Joe at 1B all year and Tellez sent packing. We can hope for better, and I do, but the sample size is not small when you put together last year with this.
I don’t have an issue with wanting to give Tellez a shot if they liked him. My gripe is with the fact that they didn’t roster a left handed version of Joe with options in the event that this didn’t work out. If Tellez doesn’t hit, you plug that guy in. If Tellez hits you have left handed outfield depth. But they needed a better insurance policy than Jake Lamb/Seth Beer.
Suwinski is looking OK. Lot of bad luck there. Triolo has had some bad luck too. His swing and contact rates are comparable to last year, and I can remember several hard hit balls right at people. Launch angle is a little down. If his BABIP of .420 last year was unsustainable, his .291 BABIP this year is also unsustainable giving the consistent contact and good swing decisions that he makes. He certainly is not going to win any Silver Slugger awards at any position, but he not that bad as a hitter. Triolo and Suwinski are the least of their many problems right now.
With you on Jack. Not there with Triolo.
He's not making consistent contact; he's not making good swing decisions.
Look at his Savant page - His batting profile is absolutely terrible.
He's damn near a Three True Outcome player - Singles, walks, k's.
He's being exposed bigtime, he needs to be a utility bench guy.
I agree that Triolo is running *a bit* cold (about 20 points upside down in xwOBA) but also with you that even correcting for that leaves a pretty uninspiring hitter, well short of league average.
It has reached checking-schedule-for-next-Marlins-series level of desperation around these parts.
I’m already scoping out 2025 draft guys.
If it wasn’t for Skenes impending arrival, I’d be mentally moving onto ‘25.
Somebody posted a blooper reel of the Pirates' OF this season on twitter. It makes for some very depressing viewing. I read that they have the worst defensive OF in MLB, despite having Taylor, who is still gold-glove level. Normally, I wouldn't care about defensive stats for 20 games, but that video sort of reinforces the conviction that they do, in fact, have awful OF defense. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication or lack of communication out there with several near collisions and popups dropping between the IF and OF for hits. This is on the coaching staff to fix.... a lot of these fundamental baseball mistakes are on the coaching staff. Yet, nothing is done.
I liked the comment early on that was like we were not 9 of 11 good at the start or 0 for 6 bad now - great comment by I think Grant B.
Everyone who wasn't smoking hopium knew the Pirates were going to have a below average offense this season. The only hitter who has shocked us by how bad he has been thus far is Cruz. The major concern that I have is not the lack of hitting; it is the bad baserunning and bad defense. The only chance the Pirates have for a playoff spot is to be rock solid on the bases and in the field to support the only strength of the team: pitching. They need to fix up the baserunning and fielding (and bullpen management) to have any chance of success. The hitting is not going to be fixed now or for the foreseeable future.
Spring training is where outfielders should work through any communication issues. Having Taylor not there to lead the squad during that time had to hurt a little. Also, since the Pirates are not a team that puts the same 9 players out there, the communication and learning to play together takes even more effort. I also think we have some players on the team that aren't being held accountable...... by the coaching staff.
Yes to all of the above. There have been 2 instances of non-communication between Olivares and Taylor. I would be inclined to blame the coaches and lack of spring training for Taylor for this, except the same thing happened repeatedly between Taylor and Olivares in KC. I think some of it is just an Olivares problem.
Cruz is an enigma and they need to get his attention by sending him down.
You can tell by watching him that he's bored...Body language is key with him. He's not having fun, he's pouting. He might have ADD.
If the focus is there, he can play an average short and be a monster in the box. But, not when he's in this state of mind. Send him down, see how he reacts to a little adversity. Sending him down and having him play the OF would be a disaster...remember they tried him in left field for Indy as BC said that was his last box to check and he was terrible out there.
Last year and even this year, I have seen several players that are happy and try when they do well. When they start to slump, they mope and takes a long time to get out of it. Cruz, Hayes, Reynolds, Bae and I might be missing a few.
Don't get me started on Hayes. His body language is absolute dogshit this year. WTF?
It was like that a good part of last year as well, but never in the field.
The next time I see Hayes bust it down the line, will be the first.
Losing is a habit. You can see it every day on some of these guys who have been with the team for while (except Reynolds who has some kind of mental fortress and is about the most consistent player and constant personality I think that I have ever seen).
I am probably being unfair to Reynolds since it was only spring training. But 2023 in spring training, he was going through that contract thing and trade request etc. He really looked like he didn't want to be there. I think he went through a 2 for 40 stretch or something before finishing strong. Then again, it was only spring training.
Let's put Reynolds into a real-world perspective. Imagine if, for the past 5 years, you worked at a company were everyone except you sucked at their jobs and anyone who was any good was transferred out; imagine if no one at your workplace was ever held accountable for anything and your boss's only concern was being liked by everyone; then imagine that, when you ask for a pay raise, you are given the run-around. How would you feel? Because that is the position that the guy has been in for 5 years now. I have the highest respect for him as a player and person.
Honest request: make it a point to note on this board the next time you see a big leaguer ra-ra'ng their teammates while getting their teeth kicked in during a slump.
They shouldn't. But if you see an old guy like Cutch still busting his ass to first on a ground out. Maybe you can run a little harder as well. I did see Alex Cora 2 nights ago, go out to the mound and rip into Kutter Crawford for walking a guy with a 4 to 1 lead. Jared Jones said Henry Davis will come out and start swearing at him, if he is not concentratiing.
A product of the showcasification of player development.
Oneil Cruz has never, ever shown the ability to be a Major League shortstop precisely because of the insane level of consistency necessary to succeed at the highest level. This is the part of successful player dev that isn't simply a quick box to check before pushing a player up the latter as quickly as possible. It takes time and patience, which is so not 2024.
What he's done is shown the ability to make plays in limited settings. He's a showcase player.
Correct. He is a showcase player. Probably one that doesn't put in the time required to become better.
I have nothing to back up this thought, but i feel like he was pouting in the OF and could actually be good if he gave a shit enough to dedicate to getting better
The body language is the same as it's always been thru the minors. If a guy doesn't mature after a season ending injury and all the rehab that was required,
and have a more positive mindset getting back to the show.......then there may indeed be other issues. Sports psychology is a HUGE field today, but has Bob and Ben hired anyone in that capacity?
They've got like half a dozen dudes up and down the system with a variation of Mental Performance in their title.
I suspect this is the field where a player's will and commitment matters most, though.
You'd be depressed too if you were a member of the Pirates organization.
After he dropped the infield popup, he was in the dugout laughing about it with his Latin buddies. Enough of the I don't give a sh*t attitude and grow up.
I agree with 1979 and agree there could be other avenues (psychologists?) that could help if he can't keep focused. However, I don't believe for one second he thought dropping a popup was funny. Whether competitive sports or beer leagues, people react in different ways when they make a boneheaded play. Sometimes laughing it off is a way to do that. I don't doubt he may need help with pressure getting to him / focusing etc.. but by all accounts he worked hard to get back on the field. I don't think this is a joke to him.
You're right. I'm the type of person, if I'm struggling like that, I'm not laughing or joking around, or even talking to anyone. I'm sitting by myself, staring straight ahead, trying to figure out why I suck so bad and how I can make adjustments. After the game, I'd be watching tons of video.
Fair enough.. i have been both at times. I know I have been on teams (no where this level) where you kind of raz each other out of tightness but also have been where you need to vent and show emotions. Despite our high expectations , I just don't think you get as far as he has without doing the last sentence either by yourself or with a coach. Not saying he has done it as much as he should, but pure talent without dedication doesn't get to MLB.
Seems like we are seeing how Cruz reacts to adversity right now. He missed a year due to a bad injury. He’s one of the organization’s most talented guys, and the Pirates are a young, mid tier team, at best. You need to see what this guy can do against MLB pitchers. Maybe he sits a bit more, but I would not send him down. As for his mindset and his level of focus, not sure if that can be fully assessed due to body language on TV or at a game. Reynolds often looks like he’s ready to fall asleep, but he’s obviously a very productive player. I understand the frustration with Cruz, but we simply must find out THIS year what he means for this team.
"Reynolds often looks like he’s ready to fall asleep"
That's just his face.
Cruz on the other hand looks like he's having as much fun as a straight guy in a gay bar.
a compliment's a compliment, dude
How long do you let him struggle like this before you send him down?
2 more weeks of 45% k-rates and errors?
In the field, this is who he is and always has been. 5 errors in 20 games is actually a little below his career rate in the minors.
He's never looked this bad defensively.
Dropping popups, unable to make the exchange on easy DPs, grounders going right through the 5-hole.
His major problem in the past was throwing. Appears he has that under control.
Opening sentence is false, if you can believe it.
This is a slightly better version of Oneil Cruz that anyone who actually watches minor league baseball saw for the first 6 weeks or so of 2022.
.591 OPS and 14 (!) errors in his first 29 games.
While most Pirate fans were whiny about service time manipulation, Oneil Cruz was busy being the worst player on the Indy roster.
Maybe it just takes him awhile to get going each season?
The manipulation crowd inferred his Indy struggles in 2022 as pouting that he was in AAA and not the Show.
I honestly feel for him right now. I don't want to see anyone struggle that way he has this season.
Well... if he is their big, superstar future talent, something needs to happen, because he is a major contributor to the garbage pile of baseball they have played recently. 86 ABs is starting to approach a reasonable sample before you start thinking about sending a guy down. I would give him another 4 or 5 games, and if nothing changes, then send him to the minors. He is hurting the team at this point badly. Of course, the same could be said for a lot of guys, including those giving him pointers.
No need to panic, do what I did, ask the wife to hide all sharp objects!
Make sure you check out NS9s latest episode that dropped this morning. I jump on for my latest segment.
I would have certainly taken 11-11 at this point at the start of the season, but certainly don’t like the way they arrived here. I figured both Davis and Cruz would struggle to start the season. Hopefully they get the ship turned around this week.
Lets super overreact: QP, cruz, and hank down, Lauer, nicky g/peggy, and grandal up
0-6 week feels like the season is blown, but in reality it’s the equivalent of losing 1 game in an NFL season.
What’s definitely not needed now is to make rash decisions that will have lasting negative consequences.
With that said, I am in favor of bringing up Lauer to be in rotation ASAP.
That's what a smart GM would do. Unfortunately............
Smart GM’s don’t act like Steinbrenner/Trump after a bad week.
Steinbrenner actually had a lot of success doing what he did.
Not really. He had good baseball people in place he constantly overruled and made the team worse. Some moves (Reggie) worked. Many did not. A big reason their 90’s dynasty came to be is because he was suspended. For the second time.
Steinbrenner was born on third base and acted like he hit a triple.
I’d argue Yankees underachieved to a certain degree due to a lack of stability and a crappy culture for much of his tenure as Owner. Definitely had some great teams, but also had an unprecedented period of bad baseball teams for nearly all of 80’s and early 90’s.
To be fair, only due to being in an era where money truly did rule.
Competition is way too smart now for that to work, which is a big reason why the Mets are continually a mess.
Which GMs of .500 teams have made nearly wholesale roster changes in the first four weeks of the season?
A GM who wants to send a message to under performing players. Also the record may show .500 but they are obviously going downhill quickly.
So just mash the panic button whenever a team hits a bad stretch? This isn’t football where a four or five game slide hijacks your season.
BC thinking a shake up will upset Nutting is the only overreaction we'll see, lol.
You can add Triolo as well. Dude cannot hit at all.
Lauer for QP
Nick for Tri
Bae for Cruz
Grandal for Davis
Nicolas for Stratton or Ortiz
Williams at SS, Nick at 2b. Bae 3-4 starts per week at SU.
One more week of this and i'm in on the Lauer, Gonzales, and Grandal moves.
You left out the most vital moves:
Any random person for Cherington
Any random person for Shelton
Any random lifeform for Haines
Did I see somewhere on here yesterday that Cruz can't be sent down (no options)? Agree with the rest, but if that's the case, yikes.
Just to add on things that won't happen: fire Haines (and Shelty)...coax McCutchen into retirement (awkward).
He has one remaining option.
Right on trailing 5-game trend, Pirates with a colossal ONE xbh.
Ugh, yeah. Bats have been painful to watch since that first week or so.
“‘Spring Training Team HR Champs™️’ has left the chat,” apparently 😋
LHSP Eric Lauer leading the way with the most Whiffs with 14 on the way to a 68 pitch, 5 inning shutout, giving up ZERO hits, striking out 8, and a 5-0 GO/FO - is there anything else a pitcher can do to influence the outcome of a game? I think he is going to find his way to Pittsburgh soon. Might catch a ride with his Catcher, Yasmani Grandal who had a big day also going 2-4 with 3 RBI.
Be interesting to see what happens with Joey Bart when Grandal comes back. Bart is 5-16, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 4 BB, OPS+ of 237 (about equal to the sum of his OPS+ the previous 4 years). Already a 0.4 WAR.
Javier Rivas at BRD has had a season full of extra base, RBI hits the past few games. I think everybody thinks he can be/is a solid SS defensively, if only the bat comes around on a consistent basis. Watched him 2 years ago at Pirate City taking BP and peppering the parking lot of the Golf Course behind Center on the first field on the right as you walk in. 6'6" manchild with little, if any, fat on the bones.
From the sounds of it, YG will have a longer rehab due to a limited spring training. If Davis is still struggling, there’s no world where you keep him with the big club. Sometimes these decisions just work themselves out.
The Pirates could be in the catbird seat if they decided to spend some time with the two New York Teams to find out which would give the most for Joey Bart. Austin Wells, 24, was the first round pick of the Yankees a few years ago, but he is 3 for 33 so far at MLB, and could probably use another 2 or 3 months at AAA. And with the Mets, Francisco Alvarez is out for at least 2 months and the remaining Catchers for the Mets leave much to be desired.
Two teams with a need for a veteran Catcher - can BC take advantage and get us something we need for the future?
No one is going to give up more than a random nothing prospect for Bart: same as what the Pirates gave up. Two HRs in a 4-game sample with the Pirates does not fundamentally change his value from 0 to more than 0.
What about Everson Pereira?
It's been a few days since the Pirates bad performances were blamed on this beauty instead of there talent level, waiting for this one to re-surface... "Shelton trying to be the smartest guy in the room".... always a crowd favorite🤷♂️🤷♂️🤣🤣
Shelton's not the reason they've lost six straight, though I fault him for one of the losses in that streak. But even his wife talks about how stubborn he is which is characteristic of "smartest guy in the room" syndrome. And that shouldn't even be surprising given that the all-time great "smartest guy in the room" is Joe Maddon, who Shelton frequently cites as his role model. So no, it's not fair to blame Shelton but it's also okay to acknowledge certain personality characteristics that may raise questions about his leadership.
The bigger concern, as you suggest, is that we're in year 5 of the rebuild and we're still having to question the talent level. I actually think our talent level is okay, they're just pressing and someone needs to step up. There were numerous stories from the media about how guys like Tellez and Perez and Chapman would help them avoid long losing streaks this year. Instead, Chapman loses his cool and gets tossed, Tellez loses his cool and breaks his bat, and yesterday's game story noted how frustrated Perez was. Doesn't sound like the leadership we need to help keep the young guys from pressing.
I know Casey Stengel couldn't turn this roster into a true threat but that being said... Shelton might be my least favorite Pirates manager going back to Leyland. He bothers me THAT much.
Lots of blame to go around, but lack of overall talent is my thought🤷♂️
Eh, I hear ya.
Personally, I’d mostly blame it on ‘baseball’. It does stuff like this sometimes. They weren’t nine-of-first-eleven good, nor are they six in a row bad 🤷♂️
I will admit I am ready for the pendulum to head more back the other way though! 😁