Enjoyed the give and take on the product the Pirates are putting on the field at the MLB level. Seeing this same crap every year and listening to different versions of the same story does no good at all. We are going into 2025 better than we were going into 2024, but how much better?
Shelton has to go because the only other reason for not winning would be deferred to BC and BN, and they do not want that. Somebody needs to be the scapegoat - deserving or not. I hope they just make that decision ASAP and set up Don Kelly as the Manager
From Mackey's column today (the last comment is Mackey's; I find Shelton's response condescending to someone just trying to do their job):
Hiles: “Was Rowdy in the eighth just because you guys don’t have an off-day tomorrow?”
Shelton: “Come on, Noah. It’s 11-0. It’s 11-0, Bednar, [Colin] Holderman both throw yesterday. [Dennis] Santana has been our best reliever. [Aroldis] Chapman, I’m not gonna pitch in that situation. Come on. You’ve watched enough baseball to know that. It’s 11-0. Seriously.”
Regardless of the quality of the question, and I agree that it didn't need to be asked, Shelton should have handled the response with more respect. If he had stopped before the "Come on..., it would have been so much better. Everything the followed the "Come on" feels demeaning, though maybe it reads worse that it sounded?
You're a 52-year-old man, your team just got no-hit, just about every Yinzer out there wants you gone, and you have a 27-year-old kid asking you a flippant question.
Ditto. No off day and a 4 game set with the Nats next. That is why he stuck its German as long as he did and why Beeks went out a 2nd innning. Obvious why Rowdy was out in the 8th so why ask the question?
1st reason, he's the new guy and he isn't sucking up the joint.
2nd reason, he's the only outfield prospect in the top 2 levels that has a realistic chance to at least be a solid 4th outfielder with the outside chance of becoming a regular.
I was kinda indifferent on the trade, but it made more sense than BDLC trade. Once in the system I hope all the prospects become more than what they're projected to be.
Siani might be he is 2 years younger. I'd want to see him OPS over .713 in double A before saying he's better than someone who hasn't had an OPS lower than .757 at the double A level and above though.
It’s easy for me to say this, but I think Siani is a perfect example of a guy who would be in the majors or knocking on the door if he were with the Orioles or the Dodgers.
Kiley McDaniel/ESPN posted an article today ranking organizations according to talent they have under control for the next two seasons. I think these rankings are particularly interesting because they factor in major league talent and prospects. For heading into years 6 and 7, ranking 21st isn't impressive though the number itself might be a good omen :).
His paragraph reads as a positive assessment, but his bar is lower than most of us would want as he writes "I think some health luck, natural growth and more prospects showing up get this to a .500 team next year."
For those who can't access the article, he groups players in tiers and for us the tiers are:
Elite: Skenes
Plus: Cruz
Solid: Bryan Reynolds/LF, Mitch Keller/RHS, Jared Jones/RHS, Ke'Bryan Hayes/3B, Bubba Chandler/RHS, Joey Bart/C, Endy Rodriguez/C, David Bednar/RHR, Thomas Harrington/RHS, Termarr Johnson/2B, Johan Oviedo/RHS, Nick Gonzales/2B, Nick Yorke/2B, Michael Burrows/RHS, Hunter Barco/LHS, Luis L. Ortiz/RHS, Jared Triolo/3B, Henry Davis/C, Braxton Ashcraft/RHS, Kyle Nicolas/RHR, Dauri Moreta/RHR, Hunter Stratton/RHR
What struck me is that the Pirates are 21st in the fifth year of a tank. The Orioles are 3rd, six years after committing to a full tank. Ben Cherington/Derek Shlelton < Mike Elias/Brandon Hyde.
And keep in mind: for almost all of this period the O’s had a dying Peter Angelos as their principal owner and were very reluctant to make any long-term financial commitments.
Some notable omissions (not that I disagree): Bae, Suwinski, BDLC, Cook (maybe I disagree with this one), Holderman (maybe a true oversight because a year ago his value was pretty high), Santana (I'm not quite buying him yet either), Mlod, ... IKF wouldn't be counted because he's only under control for one more season.
Glad I didn't watch the last inning, and that is disappointing about Cruz. It's no excuse, but Rowdy has been getting away with that all season, which is to say, and as you suggest, we have a culture problem. If we didn't, perhaps we wouldn't be hearing so much about how IKF, for example, plays the game the right way, is a strong clubhouse presence, etc. because that wouldn't stand out.
Not sure why anybody would think the players would give a shit when the owner, GM and mgr clearly don’t.
And the veteran presence babble should have died long ago. AJ Burnett mattered because people would listen when he went off about something. This FO would die before they let AJ near the team. They want guys who’ll stay quiet, recite cliches like IKF did last night, and pick up that one more year of service time. They sure as hell don’t want a player honest enough to say, “Damn, these guys don’t do anything like the good teams I’ve been with.”
If they're having to use Tellez, they still think they don't have enough arms to cover innings despite using the two extra roster spots on relievers. So I'm thinking they'll keep German even though logic suggests they should let him go.
Well that makes sense then, but they'll taking away a potential starter for a reliever--will they do that? We did finish last season with a bunch of bullpen games, iirc.
A ray of light, but warning of arbitrary starting point--Since August 21 (13 games, 50 PAs), Suwinski has a triple slash of .348/.400/.696 for an OPS of 1.096. The K's (15, 30%) are still too high and the BAbip (.464) isn't sustainable, but I'm looking for hope for one of my favorite players.
As I've said before, I'm not blaming Haines for Jack's troubles but I also think Jack will benefit from a new hitting coach whether it's with us or following a trade to another organization--the classic change of scenery. I'm hoping he gets that chance here.
I hope so. The bat speed is solid, and the chase % is still elite. At the very least, it gives them some ingredients to work with and get him back to where he was.
I don’t think they can bring Shelton back given the trajectory of the season. But I think Cherington is given more time. I don’t think Nutting and Williams want to start the whole thing over again. So clean house at the major league staff level and see if that makes a difference.
The irony, of course, being that Cherington has built this roster and shown no aptitude for the savvy trades needed to plug holes and build around the core pitching.
I think Cherington is safe, because they are close. If they get some of the bats to hit 50th percentile, instead of 20th percentile, that will be huge.
The biggest data point that suggests that we need a change is the state of the minor league system. How on earth our farm system is ranked in the bottom half, after years of high picks, is beyond me. You could take someone off the street, hand them a Baseball America draft guide, and the results would probably be better than this.
Huntington’s first four drafts produced 160 bWAR. Even with Skenes pushing the figure higher, Cherington will probably be lucky to touch half that figure.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with the comparative timing of when each system matriculated and then declined, which is the entire point of the conversation you're having.
Given past endorsements and their clear fondness for each other, I don't think Cherington will fire Shelton. If Williams/Nutting fire Shelton, that is such a clear undermining of the GM's role that Cherington might as well be gone.
So, I expect it to be one more year of the staff more-or-less intact. I do think they'll move on from Haines, but to gain some favor with the fanbase more than any recognition of things not working. If that is the only move, I hope that this go around they choose someone who is not "on the same page" but instead will challenge their thinking.
Idk how much more can be said though. At some point you’re beating the same dead horse. It’s plain and obvious that things have to change and there’s only so many ways to say it. Really all that’s left now is to see if they make any changes in the offseason. Fingers crossed.
Nick Yorke? When did we get him, Ben? 259 AB in AAA, .900+ OPS, 23 doubles, 7 HR, 33 BB/53 K.
Esmerlyn Valdez and Jhonny Severino both with 2 HR and 3 RBI in A. Carlson Reed with another positive start in A+, now has 6 starts at the level, 31 IP, 34 K/9 BB. Overall between A and A+ 23 Starts and 108.2 IP. Got help from Carlos Jimenez, our 22 year old version of Luis Ortiz with 25 games at A and A+ including 11 Starts, 74.2 IP, 91K.
And tip of the cap to Quinn Priester now with the Red Sox, threw 6 IP of shutout ball giving up only 4 hits, with 8K, 69 pitches, for Worcester in AAA.
He's listed as 2B/LF/RF. I think he is playing more 2B than anything, and for awhile I think they were working him in CF. The hitting numbers are VG for a 2B, but not for being an OF. He needs some extensive work at Pirate City with an Infield Coach this Fall if we have hopes for him in the IF in 2025. Reps and Reps and Reps. There are probably 2 or 3 more who could join the group. Yorke is a very athletic kid so it would be worth the effort.
I would love Walker, but that’s shooting to high isn’t, this is the team we follow. We shop in the $3-5 million FA aisle and when they do, we go right back to saying might as well give a quad A player a shot…..
“After Wednesday night's outing (which was a great one), he holds a 6.23 ERA and a 1.308 WHIP while striking out 26 batters in 26 innings over six starts.” From The Sporting News.
Enjoyed the give and take on the product the Pirates are putting on the field at the MLB level. Seeing this same crap every year and listening to different versions of the same story does no good at all. We are going into 2025 better than we were going into 2024, but how much better?
Shelton has to go because the only other reason for not winning would be deferred to BC and BN, and they do not want that. Somebody needs to be the scapegoat - deserving or not. I hope they just make that decision ASAP and set up Don Kelly as the Manager
From Mackey's column today (the last comment is Mackey's; I find Shelton's response condescending to someone just trying to do their job):
Hiles: “Was Rowdy in the eighth just because you guys don’t have an off-day tomorrow?”
Shelton: “Come on, Noah. It’s 11-0. It’s 11-0, Bednar, [Colin] Holderman both throw yesterday. [Dennis] Santana has been our best reliever. [Aroldis] Chapman, I’m not gonna pitch in that situation. Come on. You’ve watched enough baseball to know that. It’s 11-0. Seriously.”
Think things are tense around 115 Federal Street?
Not to stick up for Shelton, but it was a clown question.
Why would you run a reliever out there when it's 11-0? What is the benefit?
Regardless of the quality of the question, and I agree that it didn't need to be asked, Shelton should have handled the response with more respect. If he had stopped before the "Come on..., it would have been so much better. Everything the followed the "Come on" feels demeaning, though maybe it reads worse that it sounded?
Think about it...
You're a 52-year-old man, your team just got no-hit, just about every Yinzer out there wants you gone, and you have a 27-year-old kid asking you a flippant question.
Come on is completely appropriate.
perfect example of why these guys almost always respond in "corporate speak". damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Ditto. No off day and a 4 game set with the Nats next. That is why he stuck its German as long as he did and why Beeks went out a 2nd innning. Obvious why Rowdy was out in the 8th so why ask the question?
and he's inherently giving Hiles the respect of acknowledging Hiles knows enough about baseball to answer his own question.
Man you guys with Cook.
The guy has never gotten a mention on an O’s FG list.
Billy Osuna
He gets more notice for 2 reasons.
1st reason, he's the new guy and he isn't sucking up the joint.
2nd reason, he's the only outfield prospect in the top 2 levels that has a realistic chance to at least be a solid 4th outfielder with the outside chance of becoming a regular.
I was kinda indifferent on the trade, but it made more sense than BDLC trade. Once in the system I hope all the prospects become more than what they're projected to be.
your 1st reason is valid.
I honestly think Siani is the better of the two.
Siani might be he is 2 years younger. I'd want to see him OPS over .713 in double A before saying he's better than someone who hasn't had an OPS lower than .757 at the double A level and above though.
It’s easy for me to say this, but I think Siani is a perfect example of a guy who would be in the majors or knocking on the door if he were with the Orioles or the Dodgers.
That makes sense to me.
BC traded a good pitching prospect for him. Explain it to him.
Kiley McDaniel/ESPN posted an article today ranking organizations according to talent they have under control for the next two seasons. I think these rankings are particularly interesting because they factor in major league talent and prospects. For heading into years 6 and 7, ranking 21st isn't impressive though the number itself might be a good omen :).
His paragraph reads as a positive assessment, but his bar is lower than most of us would want as he writes "I think some health luck, natural growth and more prospects showing up get this to a .500 team next year."
https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/41123970/mlb-rankings-core-most-talent-locked-2024
For those who can't access the article, he groups players in tiers and for us the tiers are:
Elite: Skenes
Plus: Cruz
Solid: Bryan Reynolds/LF, Mitch Keller/RHS, Jared Jones/RHS, Ke'Bryan Hayes/3B, Bubba Chandler/RHS, Joey Bart/C, Endy Rodriguez/C, David Bednar/RHR, Thomas Harrington/RHS, Termarr Johnson/2B, Johan Oviedo/RHS, Nick Gonzales/2B, Nick Yorke/2B, Michael Burrows/RHS, Hunter Barco/LHS, Luis L. Ortiz/RHS, Jared Triolo/3B, Henry Davis/C, Braxton Ashcraft/RHS, Kyle Nicolas/RHR, Dauri Moreta/RHR, Hunter Stratton/RHR
What struck me is that the Pirates are 21st in the fifth year of a tank. The Orioles are 3rd, six years after committing to a full tank. Ben Cherington/Derek Shlelton < Mike Elias/Brandon Hyde.
And keep in mind: for almost all of this period the O’s had a dying Peter Angelos as their principal owner and were very reluctant to make any long-term financial commitments.
I don’t have a subscription, so thanks for the summary.
Some notable omissions (not that I disagree): Bae, Suwinski, BDLC, Cook (maybe I disagree with this one), Holderman (maybe a true oversight because a year ago his value was pretty high), Santana (I'm not quite buying him yet either), Mlod, ... IKF wouldn't be counted because he's only under control for one more season.
Oh, I’m buying Santana stock.
I've once again been radicalized.
Sure, maybe none of this stuff f*cking matters. Whatever.
But I've watched Kebryan Hayes munch seeds *during* an active play in a real Major League Baseball team en route to a 100-loss season.
And now I've watched Oneil Cruz barely make it out of the box as the 27th out in a no-hitter capping the most embarrassing collapse in a decade.
The owner doesn't give a f*ck.
The players don't give a f*ck.
The coaches and managers don't know what f*ck to give.
And the fans, we're just plain f*cked.
Welcome to the club. They just gave up against Imanaga so he'd be a sure thing to win ROY, right? Right?
I’m confused, how do you really feel? 😄
Glad I didn't watch the last inning, and that is disappointing about Cruz. It's no excuse, but Rowdy has been getting away with that all season, which is to say, and as you suggest, we have a culture problem. If we didn't, perhaps we wouldn't be hearing so much about how IKF, for example, plays the game the right way, is a strong clubhouse presence, etc. because that wouldn't stand out.
Not sure why anybody would think the players would give a shit when the owner, GM and mgr clearly don’t.
And the veteran presence babble should have died long ago. AJ Burnett mattered because people would listen when he went off about something. This FO would die before they let AJ near the team. They want guys who’ll stay quiet, recite cliches like IKF did last night, and pick up that one more year of service time. They sure as hell don’t want a player honest enough to say, “Damn, these guys don’t do anything like the good teams I’ve been with.”
When they activate Wentz I really hope German is released. Nothing to see there. Give his next start to one of the kids.
If they're having to use Tellez, they still think they don't have enough arms to cover innings despite using the two extra roster spots on relievers. So I'm thinking they'll keep German even though logic suggests they should let him go.
They have to let somebody go to activate Wentz and it has to be a pitcher.
Well that makes sense then, but they'll taking away a potential starter for a reliever--will they do that? We did finish last season with a bunch of bullpen games, iirc.
Potential starter?
Who cares the guy sucks!
A ray of light, but warning of arbitrary starting point--Since August 21 (13 games, 50 PAs), Suwinski has a triple slash of .348/.400/.696 for an OPS of 1.096. The K's (15, 30%) are still too high and the BAbip (.464) isn't sustainable, but I'm looking for hope for one of my favorite players.
As I've said before, I'm not blaming Haines for Jack's troubles but I also think Jack will benefit from a new hitting coach whether it's with us or following a trade to another organization--the classic change of scenery. I'm hoping he gets that chance here.
Nice find, looks like you're correct to be hopeful but skeptical.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast-search-minors?hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2024%7C&hfSit=&player_type=batter&hfOuts=&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=2024-08-21&game_date_lt=&hfMo=&hfTeam=&home_road=&hfRO=&position=&hfInn=&hfBBT=&batters_lookup%5B%5D=669261&hfFlag=&hfLevel=&metric_1=&hfTeamAffiliate=&hfOpponentAffiliate=&group_by=name&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=0&sort_col=pitches&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc&chk_stats_ba=on&chk_stats_xba=on&chk_stats_obp=on&chk_stats_xobp=on&chk_stats_slg=on&chk_stats_xslg=on&chk_stats_woba=on&chk_stats_xwoba=on&chk_stats_barrels_total=on&chk_stats_swing_miss_percent=on&chk_stats_launch_speed=on&chk_stats_hyper_speed=on&chk_stats_launch_angle=on&chk_stats_hardhit_percent=on&chk_stats_barrels_per_bbe_percent=on#results
I hope so. The bat speed is solid, and the chase % is still elite. At the very least, it gives them some ingredients to work with and get him back to where he was.
I don’t think they can bring Shelton back given the trajectory of the season. But I think Cherington is given more time. I don’t think Nutting and Williams want to start the whole thing over again. So clean house at the major league staff level and see if that makes a difference.
The irony, of course, being that Cherington has built this roster and shown no aptitude for the savvy trades needed to plug holes and build around the core pitching.
I think Shelton & Haines are goners.
I think Cherington is safe, because they are close. If they get some of the bats to hit 50th percentile, instead of 20th percentile, that will be huge.
It also wouldn't surprise me to see BC canned.
The biggest data point that suggests that we need a change is the state of the minor league system. How on earth our farm system is ranked in the bottom half, after years of high picks, is beyond me. You could take someone off the street, hand them a Baseball America draft guide, and the results would probably be better than this.
Lots of graduates...
Skenes, Jones, Davis, Rodriguez, Peguero, Nicholas, Mlod, Gonzales, Triolo, Luis Ortiz.
All just graduated over the past 2 seasons. 6 of them were top 100 dudes.
This is why I like rankings like Kiley's as they factor in promotions and close-to-the-majors prospects.
NH graduated a lot of people too. It was years before his farm system fell this far.
also took him 5 years to build a top system in the first place. fair is fair.
Huntington’s first four drafts produced 160 bWAR. Even with Skenes pushing the figure higher, Cherington will probably be lucky to touch half that figure.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with the comparative timing of when each system matriculated and then declined, which is the entire point of the conversation you're having.
God I hate when you do this.
Given past endorsements and their clear fondness for each other, I don't think Cherington will fire Shelton. If Williams/Nutting fire Shelton, that is such a clear undermining of the GM's role that Cherington might as well be gone.
So, I expect it to be one more year of the staff more-or-less intact. I do think they'll move on from Haines, but to gain some favor with the fanbase more than any recognition of things not working. If that is the only move, I hope that this go around they choose someone who is not "on the same page" but instead will challenge their thinking.
I think your assessment is most likely accurate. Nutting seems loathe to fire people, and Cherington will be equally loathe to fire Shelty.
It's going to get real dark in here...Midnight dark. Probably not safe for women and children.
So , how can the Indians (AAA) get into the International League playoffs, and is there any chance I'll see playoffs here in Indianapolis?
holy smokes boys
Well...looks like everyone has finally given up. #re2pect
Idk how much more can be said though. At some point you’re beating the same dead horse. It’s plain and obvious that things have to change and there’s only so many ways to say it. Really all that’s left now is to see if they make any changes in the offseason. Fingers crossed.
Nick Yorke? When did we get him, Ben? 259 AB in AAA, .900+ OPS, 23 doubles, 7 HR, 33 BB/53 K.
Esmerlyn Valdez and Jhonny Severino both with 2 HR and 3 RBI in A. Carlson Reed with another positive start in A+, now has 6 starts at the level, 31 IP, 34 K/9 BB. Overall between A and A+ 23 Starts and 108.2 IP. Got help from Carlos Jimenez, our 22 year old version of Luis Ortiz with 25 games at A and A+ including 11 Starts, 74.2 IP, 91K.
And tip of the cap to Quinn Priester now with the Red Sox, threw 6 IP of shutout ball giving up only 4 hits, with 8K, 69 pitches, for Worcester in AAA.
What position is Yorke playing? Move him to 3rd B and he is our MLB starter in '25. There's no comparison with Triolo's
bat.
He's listed as 2B/LF/RF. I think he is playing more 2B than anything, and for awhile I think they were working him in CF. The hitting numbers are VG for a 2B, but not for being an OF. He needs some extensive work at Pirate City with an Infield Coach this Fall if we have hopes for him in the IF in 2025. Reps and Reps and Reps. There are probably 2 or 3 more who could join the group. Yorke is a very athletic kid so it would be worth the effort.
I don’t think he has the arm for it.
This
I think is funny that they will play Cook at 1b when cook has speed and a strong arm, but not Yorke…..he could become our Michael Busch….lite…..
Nah let’s get someone better.
Definitely, who?
can we plz shoot a lil higher?
I would love Walker, but that’s shooting to high isn’t, this is the team we follow. We shop in the $3-5 million FA aisle and when they do, we go right back to saying might as well give a quad A player a shot…..
Priester is still Priester,
“After Wednesday night's outing (which was a great one), he holds a 6.23 ERA and a 1.308 WHIP while striking out 26 batters in 26 innings over six starts.” From The Sporting News.
I'll only whisper this to PirateRican, BC won this trade......shhhh no jinx.