They might go for that package, I was surprised to see that Busch is 26 already and like many, if not all of our rookies did not hit much . So yeah his value might be inflated a bit.
I looked at that, but if the goal is for them to trade for good non roster players we migth not be a good match. Other than Skenes and Johnson we don’t have many players not on the 40 for a match.
I was thinking a Jebb, Harrington and a lottery ticket. Busch value comes in his bat, he's really limited to 1st and DH. I think his value is inflated a bit currently as far as BTV is concerned. They still see him having positional flexibility, he doesn't. I also wouldn't want to give much more for him.
Thanks, I looked at it on Fansgraph but those defensive stats are like a foreign language to me. I watched him play some this past season and he isn't a real mobile guy defensively.
It would be maddening if the only player to hit 2 Hrs in a game off Shohei starts the year in AAA. They almost have to flip Hank and Cutch positions, but Cutch should not ever return to the OF.
Considering our pitching situation, the idea of trading for first baseman boggles my mind. Why don’t they just do the logical thing and give Davis a first base mitt? Then Davis/Endy can alternate between C&1B and we resign Cutch as a true DH.
I was thinking the same thing. Back in the day that was the natural landing position for a good defense OF losing his speed. People forget Stargell was a speed and power threat his first decade in the league.
This would take at least one top prospect, maybe more. Can’t see this team trading 6+ years of cheap control for two years of not so cheap control. Money drives every last move.
I look at it slightly different. I agree money shouldn't be the issue (ie. taking on Naylor salary), but I also feel the control aspect is important (for any team but more so bottom 1/3 revenue). We have to assume we would only have Naylor for 2 years because that is all we can control (doesn't mean we can't extend him but we can't assume we would or would want to). I would rather take the money we should have for a possible Naylor and just outbid for Belt or somebody that doesn't cost an asset. If we have the $(we should) then let's not give up what is a prospect with value for 2 years of a good not great player. Naylor was platooned by Cleveland.. he is better than what we have but not a building block IMO. So.. that doesn't mean Jones (or the like) can't be traded, but I would rather bundle him and another very good prospect to get a starter with 5 years of control (example).
There’s also the question of: do we outbid the other suitors? Naylor’s surplus value isn’t crazily out of our means, but I’m sure we are hardly the only team interested.
Probably just floating Naylor’s name out there during WM to see if there would be any drastic overpays. Isn’t that why teams float names to begin with?
"While the Pirates certainly need a first baseman" - I disagree. The Pirates in 2023 had Carlos Santana at 1B, and after he was traded, Connor Joe, Jared Triolo, and others manned the position more than adequately.
Carlos Santana was signed for $6.75 mil, and had already posted a 1.0 fWAR when traded at the deadline with about $2.5 mil still on the contract. The Pirates also received a very young and very talented 18 year old SS, Jhonny Severino, in that trade. Afterward, Connor Joe became the "primary" first baseman playing 300+ innings at 1B, and posted some very good numbers on both sides of the ball. Jared Triolo also saw action at 1B and he did well also.
The Pirates traded for Joe to be a LF/3B type of utility player and 1B was an added benefit. Triolo was drafted as a solid defensive 3B/2B and also was an added benefit in his play at 1B last year. And we have a Catcher, Endy Rodriguez, who has seen considerable action at 1B during his development in the minors with the Mets and Pirates. Therefore, I do not see it to be a necessity at this point to have a full-time 1B because of the availability of so many ballplayers who can handle that position more than adequately, and benefit in their development from the increased AB's that would be available to them as they play 1B.
Why not draft a RH hitting DH/1B who has power, and is not a whiff machine?
I dont know about his fielding but there is a decent chance that he hits better than all these Carlos Santana rumors for 2024 - - for about $6mil less of the price
Beer had decent not great hitting stats in the PCL the hitters paradise. I really hope he is not being considered as a leading candidate. I put him as AAA depth and if he figures things out (he hasn't for along time), then great. Most likely he just accrues AAA at bats. Santana is now a year older but he would get my vote. I just don't see the appeal of Beer other than he was supposed to be a can't miss hitting prospect 5 years ago.
I like your sentiment, until your last line, about drafting a DH/1B. The DH can be a logical spot for any position player who needs either time off, or is in the late stage of a career (Cutch).
Apparently, one of the slickest fielders in the game is Jared Triolo, a Gold Glove winner in the minors. I suggest Triolo play 1B to field the wildly erratic throws from Oneil Cruz!! Cruz has all the making of a great 1B, with his 6'7" frame and tremendous wingspan.
With the 1B question answered, let's focus on pitching. How simple!
I'll add regarding drafting a DH/1B. If we draft said player in the summer of 2024. At the EARLIEST that might be a starter in 2026. While Spencer Torkelson was a can't miss top pick in the entire draft and made it to the majors in that timeframe. He was bad in year 1 (our 2026 in my example) and showed progress last year. Drafting is NOT an option to fill current roster holes even more so when you are not drafting 1-1 or 1-2.
Ben keeps talking about trades, Naylor would be a good target especially with two years of control (more years of control would be better, but the cost would be higher too), and with Cleveland's track record of developing pitchers, some of our pitching prospects would likely be very appealing to them. According to BTS, Jones and a lottery ticket like Jimenez would be equal in value to Naylor.
That said, I won't believe Ben will trade decent prospects until he does. It's much easier to hold on to guys like Jones and keep talking about the future.
Or we could offer Holderman who would either free up the Guardians to trade Clase or give them the kind of back of the pen to contend in AL Central. Holderman has a little higher value on BTV than does Naylor, but I'm sure I buy that. Regardless, I'd do that trade straight up in a heartbeat.
I think bullpen games are now baked into the cake here. I see ius collecting more multiple innings relievers so Holderman might be more important than a 1B
I agree that the Naylor rumors are likely just rumors, doesn’t make sense for the Guardians to move him, but if they do a package of him and Bieber will be too appealing to pass up.
Agree that the Guards would have no reason to want to trade Josh Naylor. His younger brother Bo was called up last year at C, and I expect he and Josh will be in the middle of the order with Ramirez and others in 2024. They have some needs, but trading one of their key players would not be an intelligent way to start to address those needs. They already have Jose Ramirez signed long term on a team friendly contract, and I would expect they will be talking to Josh Naylor about doing the same.
Classic buy-high candidate...
They might go for that package, I was surprised to see that Busch is 26 already and like many, if not all of our rookies did not hit much . So yeah his value might be inflated a bit.
It would be a good time to try for Michael Busch, Dodgers need to clear 2 spots on their 40 man.
I like this as a trade option that really wouldnt cost much, no real payroll added and significant upside. Also the LH bat would complement joe well
I looked at that, but if the goal is for them to trade for good non roster players we migth not be a good match. Other than Skenes and Johnson we don’t have many players not on the 40 for a match.
I was thinking a Jebb, Harrington and a lottery ticket. Busch value comes in his bat, he's really limited to 1st and DH. I think his value is inflated a bit currently as far as BTV is concerned. They still see him having positional flexibility, he doesn't. I also wouldn't want to give much more for him.
Doesn't Naylor have a cement glove at first. Would this be one of those trades where he gives up as many runs as he creates.
His defense has improved. Average to slightly above.
Thanks, I looked at it on Fansgraph but those defensive stats are like a foreign language to me. I watched him play some this past season and he isn't a real mobile guy defensively.
That's his biggest draw back, doesn't really have a body that ages well either. 5'11" 250lbs.
I saw him in the outfield a few times and that was challenging, lol.
Yep, limited to 1st or DH.
Then he will most certainly be the Pirates starting RFer on opening day.
It would be maddening if the only player to hit 2 Hrs in a game off Shohei starts the year in AAA. They almost have to flip Hank and Cutch positions, but Cutch should not ever return to the OF.
Naylor, lugo, and some bargain bin magic would me feeling much less pessimistic about this offseason
Considering our pitching situation, the idea of trading for first baseman boggles my mind. Why don’t they just do the logical thing and give Davis a first base mitt? Then Davis/Endy can alternate between C&1B and we resign Cutch as a true DH.
The way that some ground balls got past Davis in RF I have my doubts that he’s playable there.
should give Cutch a first base mit
Bryce Harper did it
I was thinking the same thing. Back in the day that was the natural landing position for a good defense OF losing his speed. People forget Stargell was a speed and power threat his first decade in the league.
This would take at least one top prospect, maybe more. Can’t see this team trading 6+ years of cheap control for two years of not so cheap control. Money drives every last move.
I look at it slightly different. I agree money shouldn't be the issue (ie. taking on Naylor salary), but I also feel the control aspect is important (for any team but more so bottom 1/3 revenue). We have to assume we would only have Naylor for 2 years because that is all we can control (doesn't mean we can't extend him but we can't assume we would or would want to). I would rather take the money we should have for a possible Naylor and just outbid for Belt or somebody that doesn't cost an asset. If we have the $(we should) then let's not give up what is a prospect with value for 2 years of a good not great player. Naylor was platooned by Cleveland.. he is better than what we have but not a building block IMO. So.. that doesn't mean Jones (or the like) can't be traded, but I would rather bundle him and another very good prospect to get a starter with 5 years of control (example).
Totally agree
There’s also the question of: do we outbid the other suitors? Naylor’s surplus value isn’t crazily out of our means, but I’m sure we are hardly the only team interested.
Probably just floating Naylor’s name out there during WM to see if there would be any drastic overpays. Isn’t that why teams float names to begin with?
"While the Pirates certainly need a first baseman" - I disagree. The Pirates in 2023 had Carlos Santana at 1B, and after he was traded, Connor Joe, Jared Triolo, and others manned the position more than adequately.
Carlos Santana was signed for $6.75 mil, and had already posted a 1.0 fWAR when traded at the deadline with about $2.5 mil still on the contract. The Pirates also received a very young and very talented 18 year old SS, Jhonny Severino, in that trade. Afterward, Connor Joe became the "primary" first baseman playing 300+ innings at 1B, and posted some very good numbers on both sides of the ball. Jared Triolo also saw action at 1B and he did well also.
The Pirates traded for Joe to be a LF/3B type of utility player and 1B was an added benefit. Triolo was drafted as a solid defensive 3B/2B and also was an added benefit in his play at 1B last year. And we have a Catcher, Endy Rodriguez, who has seen considerable action at 1B during his development in the minors with the Mets and Pirates. Therefore, I do not see it to be a necessity at this point to have a full-time 1B because of the availability of so many ballplayers who can handle that position more than adequately, and benefit in their development from the increased AB's that would be available to them as they play 1B.
Why not draft a RH hitting DH/1B who has power, and is not a whiff machine?
I am ok with Beer
He hasn't hit since he separated his shoulder a couple years ago. Maybe he has worked out the kinks but I'd want to see him hit first.
I like beer a whole lot, just not as my probably 1B platoon going into the year
I dont know about his fielding but there is a decent chance that he hits better than all these Carlos Santana rumors for 2024 - - for about $6mil less of the price
Beer had decent not great hitting stats in the PCL the hitters paradise. I really hope he is not being considered as a leading candidate. I put him as AAA depth and if he figures things out (he hasn't for along time), then great. Most likely he just accrues AAA at bats. Santana is now a year older but he would get my vote. I just don't see the appeal of Beer other than he was supposed to be a can't miss hitting prospect 5 years ago.
Addendum: Santana would get my vote over Beer.
I like your sentiment, until your last line, about drafting a DH/1B. The DH can be a logical spot for any position player who needs either time off, or is in the late stage of a career (Cutch).
Apparently, one of the slickest fielders in the game is Jared Triolo, a Gold Glove winner in the minors. I suggest Triolo play 1B to field the wildly erratic throws from Oneil Cruz!! Cruz has all the making of a great 1B, with his 6'7" frame and tremendous wingspan.
With the 1B question answered, let's focus on pitching. How simple!
I'll add regarding drafting a DH/1B. If we draft said player in the summer of 2024. At the EARLIEST that might be a starter in 2026. While Spencer Torkelson was a can't miss top pick in the entire draft and made it to the majors in that timeframe. He was bad in year 1 (our 2026 in my example) and showed progress last year. Drafting is NOT an option to fill current roster holes even more so when you are not drafting 1-1 or 1-2.
Ben keeps talking about trades, Naylor would be a good target especially with two years of control (more years of control would be better, but the cost would be higher too), and with Cleveland's track record of developing pitchers, some of our pitching prospects would likely be very appealing to them. According to BTS, Jones and a lottery ticket like Jimenez would be equal in value to Naylor.
That said, I won't believe Ben will trade decent prospects until he does. It's much easier to hold on to guys like Jones and keep talking about the future.
Or we could offer Holderman who would either free up the Guardians to trade Clase or give them the kind of back of the pen to contend in AL Central. Holderman has a little higher value on BTV than does Naylor, but I'm sure I buy that. Regardless, I'd do that trade straight up in a heartbeat.
I think bullpen games are now baked into the cake here. I see ius collecting more multiple innings relievers so Holderman might be more important than a 1B
I agree that the Naylor rumors are likely just rumors, doesn’t make sense for the Guardians to move him, but if they do a package of him and Bieber will be too appealing to pass up.
Agree that the Guards would have no reason to want to trade Josh Naylor. His younger brother Bo was called up last year at C, and I expect he and Josh will be in the middle of the order with Ramirez and others in 2024. They have some needs, but trading one of their key players would not be an intelligent way to start to address those needs. They already have Jose Ramirez signed long term on a team friendly contract, and I would expect they will be talking to Josh Naylor about doing the same.