I'm sure he can see all the strategic moves BC is making to insure there is payroll space in 2025 to bring in the next bounce back lefty to put us over the 80 win mark in 2026 if all breaks according to plan!
By signing Tellez, BC has proven he is either a liar or incompetent. He's not being patient in this off-season, he either has no plan or has a bad one. Don't expect much more on the pitching side. They are clearly dumpster diving for (major league pieces) scraps.
I would much rather watch prospects getting a taste of big league experience than what I'm seeing be thrown together.
I agree, it's why I would have preferred to see a better upside player instead of Tellez. I mentioned Lewin Diaz earlier but there are other players with as much or better upside than Tellez. He hit 35 hrs in Milwaukee is going to be Ben's reason.
It perked my ears reading about it. Of course no details were given. Maybe the Pirates can get lucky with a few extra bucks heading back there way (even though we prob won’t see the payroll increase).
If you’re serious, he’s a relief pitcher grabbed on waivers from the Nationals, not a team known for its amazing pitching depth recently. Throws hard and has no idea where it’s going.
This raises the question if Endy will ever catch again. If he becomes a FT 2nd baseman, that further adds to the logjam there in 2025. I really thought Termarr would be the guy there.
There is an extremely high probability that he will be able to catch again. The stress on the catchers arm is far less than the stress on a pitcher’s arm, and as you point out, most pitchers get back with no loss of velocity.
Yeah max effort throws of 127' plus all those tosses for 9 innings back to the pitcher......lots of stress on that elbow. We need an article on catchers returning from TJ!
To share some optimism to counterpoint my earlier comment, the Diamondbacks proved you don't have to be good to make the World Series anymore, you just need some luck to get that playoff spot and then anything can happen. They had a losing record over their final 115 games of the 2023 season. The only started off 16-14, so it's not like they were riding a great start either. They had a great 12-day stretch in mid-May that included games versus the Pirates and A's, and that's it.
That DBacks vs Rangers matchup was the worst in World Series history. I don't mean the games sucked, I didn't watch a single play (judging by the record low TV ratings, neither did you). I mean the combined records were the worst in the 119 years of World Series play by a decent margin.
So chin up, mediocre can still end well in the expanded playoff era
KC is trying to improve their farm. They’re signing dudes with the intent of flipping them at the deadline. They did it with Chapman last season and it yielded a good arm.
Cherington is way in over his head. This was never the job for him. Sometimes I wonder where they’d be with Arnold.
KC signed Lugo to 3 years at 45 million. When's the last time the pirates signed a free agent for that amount.
Can't use Frankie, he was only 3 for 39 and we had to throw in a couple of prospects to trade him for Drew Hutchinson when the contract became to much for Bob to handle.
October baseball is SSS luck for the most part nowadays. There are exceptions of course, but when the playoffs are expanded, so is the chance for best teams to be booted before WS.
Because I had no animosity towards the Rangers or Dbacks, I watched more of this WS than in recent years when I couldn't stand the thought of watching the Braves or Astros win.
But yes, this year's postseason clearly exposed the role luck plays. The swing of a single game in the regular season would have kept either team out of the postseason altogether.
There has been some discussion of this and I hope they follow through with some way to recognize the regular season champions in each league, similar to how European soccer recognizes their regular season champions. This year, the O's and Braves deserved to be celebrated but they're looked at as disappointments due to their quick exits from the postseason.
Do you think the players on the Orioles or Braves care all that much about a regular season trophy? Or are NHL players ecstatic about getting the President’s Trophy if they fall short of the Cup? It feels worse if you end up fabricating some Bobby Cox Trophy than if you didn’t do anything at all.
There probably needs to be something tangible--see below for one idea. Another idea would be every player and coach gets $1MM, similar to what the NBA did, with partial seasons prorated. Can MLB afford ~$75MM or about ~2.5MM per team? Of course they can.
Out of the box idea--give a regular season champion a spot not only in the current postseason but in the following postseason as well. Most years they'd qualify anyway, but it's a way to honor excellence over 162 games.
The following season could still impact seeding so there would be something to play for in addition to trying for the best record again to secure their spot in the following year. If a team ended in position that they wouldn't have made that following postseason, then they get the last wildcard spot.
AL East, Ruth Division: Yanks, Red Sox, O’s, Rays, Blue Jays, Expos, Guardians, Tigers
AL West, Ichiro Division: Mariners, A’s, Angels, Rangers, Astros, White Sox, Royals, Twins.
Playoffs work as such: six teams make it. The 6 plays at the 5 in a one game playoff. Winner moves on to play 2 of 3 at the 4 seed. Winner then plays the team with the best division record, 6 of possible 7 games at home. All series are best of 7 from then on.
So to use the NL as an example: 1- Braves, 2-Dodgers, 3-Brewers, 4-Phillies, 5-Marlins, 6-Diamondbacks. Arizona at Miami for the single game, and then so on.
This has roughly the same layoff as now (which no one complained about before when the Astros killed everyone as a 1 seed).
In general, having 8-team divisions with winning the division having a meaningful reward would be so appropriate, recalling baseball's history until the '60s when each league had 8 teams.
In the Clemente Division, just replace Carolina with Tennessee :)
Actually, North Carolina has a richer baseball history than does Tennessee, and it would be appropriate for the state to have a major league franchise. It just seems that there is a lot of momentum for Nashville.
Either one goes in the Clemente. Chicago and St. Louis can piss up a rope and go to the West (er Robinson) Division.
I think they could chop some regular season games off in this set up too. Twelve games against all 7 division opponents (84 games). Six games against all 8 division teams in your leg (48 games). And 24 games against one division in the other league, alternating divisions by year, for a total of 156.
It’s more about pioneers in the game than better players. If we went by WAR, Honus or a slew of other players from teams in that division have Clemente beat.
I'm willing to fast forward to 2025 if everyone else is too. Johan Oviedo was already a big loss for the season, but Rodriguez just adds to the disappointment. If neither got hurt and the Pirates added Marco Gonzales and Rowdy Tellez, would anyone feel great about the upcoming season? Maybe we can sign a petition to just skip 2024?
I understand the sentiment, but if injuries to two players who were starters but nowhere near stars (yet) undermines an entire season, that just shows how poorly the rebuild is going.
Of course I can't count how many times Shelton cited injuries from May to August, so we know this administration is quick to look for excuses when things aren't going well.
What I was saying is that they weren't in a great place WITH them, so it's obviously worse without them. They were both key players for a potential solid season BUT the Pirates needed to add to them. Now they are still in a position where they have to build to get to the low spot they were already at.
Well... at least Tellez should know, having played in Milwaukee, not to hit the sausages girls with a baseball bat, unlike a former Pirates' firstbaseman. So, they have that going for them.
The last step to entering Littlefield territory is the Matt Morris trade. If Cherington could just trade away Bowen or some other middling prospect for a overpaid, sub-mediocre with the Pirates 20 games back at the trade deadline, he will become, offcially, Littlefied 2.0, having replicated every feat of incompetence.
You’re being far too narrow in your thinking I’m afraid. Skipping the ownership tenure might not even do it if you believe Nutting’s claim that his family will never sell. Admit it, Pirate fans are doomed, doomed, doomed to exist in the ultimate losers universe forever. Too negative?
You know... the Astros hire guys who worked for NASA, guys with degrees in engineering. The Pirates hire a never-ending string of liberal arts people from touchy-feely liberal arts schools in New England. The difference between these two teams is not just payroll. I am not saying that there at not smart people in history or English or whatever. There are... but there are also a lot of dummies. There are no dummies in engineering, and you can't BS your way through your coursework by stroking your professors' political sentiments.
Plus there's a legit chance that Vogelbach part II hurts more than it helps. He had -0.9 WAR last year at age 28. This is his prime. Even at his best he's not a 1.0 WAR player
I was never a believer in the owner, but I'm also losing confidence in BC. The injuries I chalk up to bad luck, but it seems like our best prospects aren't as good as our competitors' best prospects. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm expecting too much, too soon?
With Cruz back at SS, Tellez has a chance to enter the rarefied air of such greats as Dick Stuart and Marv Throneberry for defensive incompetence.
Can someone who is really, really smart explain to me, using short, simple words, how Rowdy Tellez makes the Pirates a better team?
Statistically speaking, he has a career WAR of 0.0, so he at least doesn't make the team worst.
Funny thing is, Alfonso Rivas had a 0.0 WAR while with the Pirates, so based off of that, it's a lateral move.
I doubt that'll be the case, but then again, we will see.
you don't have to outrun the bear, only the slowest guy in your group
So he is worth 3.5 WAR in the pierogi race. Thanks. Now I get it.
No. Because he doesn’t. No one can explain this, although Jason Mackey is trying.
What is mackeys reasoning lol
The only reason Rowdy dropped from 35 homers in 2022 to 13 homers in 2023, is because he had Cutch to protect him in the line-up in 2022. :)
Seriously, we are all assuming that Cutch will be back. Has there been any word on when he will be signed.
I'm sure he can see all the strategic moves BC is making to insure there is payroll space in 2025 to bring in the next bounce back lefty to put us over the 80 win mark in 2026 if all breaks according to plan!
By signing Tellez, BC has proven he is either a liar or incompetent. He's not being patient in this off-season, he either has no plan or has a bad one. Don't expect much more on the pitching side. They are clearly dumpster diving for (major league pieces) scraps.
I would much rather watch prospects getting a taste of big league experience than what I'm seeing be thrown together.
Maybe he’ll sign 2 1bmen like last offseason
Only if he's planning on having Joe as a regular outfielder or trade him.
I agree, it's why I would have preferred to see a better upside player instead of Tellez. I mentioned Lewin Diaz earlier but there are other players with as much or better upside than Tellez. He hit 35 hrs in Milwaukee is going to be Ben's reason.
Unsurprisingly, i havent found one single positive take on the tellez signing anywhere
It perked my ears reading about it. Of course no details were given. Maybe the Pirates can get lucky with a few extra bucks heading back there way (even though we prob won’t see the payroll increase).
The 40-man is now full with Tellez. Plenty of more adds to come. Roddery Munoz, Alika, Selby, CSN likely DFAs.
Wait who the heck is roddery munoz
If you’re serious, he’s a relief pitcher grabbed on waivers from the Nationals, not a team known for its amazing pitching depth recently. Throws hard and has no idea where it’s going.
Interesting, good to know! Actually didnt know, but the sarcastic version of my comment still stands
He is not Anthony Munoz’s son….well at least I don’t think so…..
This raises the question if Endy will ever catch again. If he becomes a FT 2nd baseman, that further adds to the logjam there in 2025. I really thought Termarr would be the guy there.
My initial reaction is that if pitchers can pitch after TJ then endy most likely will be able to catch again, but could certainly be proven wrong
There is an extremely high probability that he will be able to catch again. The stress on the catchers arm is far less than the stress on a pitcher’s arm, and as you point out, most pitchers get back with no loss of velocity.
Yeah max effort throws of 127' plus all those tosses for 9 innings back to the pitcher......lots of stress on that elbow. We need an article on catchers returning from TJ!
In all seriousness, other than Josh Bell when was the last time they actually drafted and developed a 1bmen?
KY!
Although I think KY broke into the league as a 3bmen
elite comment right here. you're technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.
Pops?
Bob Robertson?
The list of Pirate 1Bmen over the last 15 years or so is gruesome. Ike Davis, Lyle Overbay, Casey McGehee, Michael Chavis, Column Moran, Gaby Sanchez.
Don’t forget Kevin Young (post Bob Robertson). He was excellent defensively and had a few good years with the bat. Nice player.
Ishikawa
Sean Rodriguez literally started 1b in the 2015 WC
Cue the Twilight Zone music.
Telez is going to be the first Pirate to hit 40 HRs since Pops.
Take it to the bank!
His 35hr season still was like a 110 wrc+ which i absolutely would not complain about but kinda funny how bad the rest mustve been
Song of the day, CCR's
Someday Never Comes
How about “Dang Me” by Roger Miller?
Get a rope and hang me. Hang me from the hiiiighest tree…
At least the Hank Davis Experience is a no-lose at this point.
Timing here also softens the blow of the crushing reality that we remain at the signing-players-too-shitty-for-your-competition phase of the rebuild.
So the offseason has Marco Gonzales and Rowdy Tellez as +’s, and Endy and Oviedo as -‘s.
I’d say the minuses are well ahead of the pluses thus far.
If this was only a golf game.
To share some optimism to counterpoint my earlier comment, the Diamondbacks proved you don't have to be good to make the World Series anymore, you just need some luck to get that playoff spot and then anything can happen. They had a losing record over their final 115 games of the 2023 season. The only started off 16-14, so it's not like they were riding a great start either. They had a great 12-day stretch in mid-May that included games versus the Pirates and A's, and that's it.
That DBacks vs Rangers matchup was the worst in World Series history. I don't mean the games sucked, I didn't watch a single play (judging by the record low TV ratings, neither did you). I mean the combined records were the worst in the 119 years of World Series play by a decent margin.
So chin up, mediocre can still end well in the expanded playoff era
The pirates aren't trying to be mediocre, they're competing with the A's to be dead last. KC is trying to be mediocre.
Its funny that me seeing the KC moves feels like a team trying to be good but without the pirates lens they really are just fairly mediocre moves
KC is trying to improve their farm. They’re signing dudes with the intent of flipping them at the deadline. They did it with Chapman last season and it yielded a good arm.
Cherington is way in over his head. This was never the job for him. Sometimes I wonder where they’d be with Arnold.
KC signed Lugo to 3 years at 45 million. When's the last time the pirates signed a free agent for that amount.
Can't use Frankie, he was only 3 for 39 and we had to throw in a couple of prospects to trade him for Drew Hutchinson when the contract became to much for Bob to handle.
Never.
October baseball is SSS luck for the most part nowadays. There are exceptions of course, but when the playoffs are expanded, so is the chance for best teams to be booted before WS.
Because I had no animosity towards the Rangers or Dbacks, I watched more of this WS than in recent years when I couldn't stand the thought of watching the Braves or Astros win.
But yes, this year's postseason clearly exposed the role luck plays. The swing of a single game in the regular season would have kept either team out of the postseason altogether.
There has been some discussion of this and I hope they follow through with some way to recognize the regular season champions in each league, similar to how European soccer recognizes their regular season champions. This year, the O's and Braves deserved to be celebrated but they're looked at as disappointments due to their quick exits from the postseason.
Do you think the players on the Orioles or Braves care all that much about a regular season trophy? Or are NHL players ecstatic about getting the President’s Trophy if they fall short of the Cup? It feels worse if you end up fabricating some Bobby Cox Trophy than if you didn’t do anything at all.
I don't even know if the pirates would qualify for a participation trophy.
There probably needs to be something tangible--see below for one idea. Another idea would be every player and coach gets $1MM, similar to what the NBA did, with partial seasons prorated. Can MLB afford ~$75MM or about ~2.5MM per team? Of course they can.
Something tangible IMO would be eliminating the byes
MLB Cup…mid season tournament coming to the schedule soon.
Yes, let’s make baseball last into Krampus season.
Out of the box idea--give a regular season champion a spot not only in the current postseason but in the following postseason as well. Most years they'd qualify anyway, but it's a way to honor excellence over 162 games.
The following season could still impact seeding so there would be something to play for in addition to trying for the best record again to secure their spot in the following year. If a team ended in position that they wouldn't have made that following postseason, then they get the last wildcard spot.
You’re not wrong in that regular season champs should get more of a bump in the postseason. Here’s my solution with expansion:
NL East, Clemente Division: Bucs, Reds, Carolina Expansion Team, Braves, Marlins, Phillies, Mets, Nats
NL West, Robinson Division: Cubs, Cards, Brewers, Pads, Rockies, Giants, Snakes, Dodgers
AL East, Ruth Division: Yanks, Red Sox, O’s, Rays, Blue Jays, Expos, Guardians, Tigers
AL West, Ichiro Division: Mariners, A’s, Angels, Rangers, Astros, White Sox, Royals, Twins.
Playoffs work as such: six teams make it. The 6 plays at the 5 in a one game playoff. Winner moves on to play 2 of 3 at the 4 seed. Winner then plays the team with the best division record, 6 of possible 7 games at home. All series are best of 7 from then on.
So to use the NL as an example: 1- Braves, 2-Dodgers, 3-Brewers, 4-Phillies, 5-Marlins, 6-Diamondbacks. Arizona at Miami for the single game, and then so on.
This has roughly the same layoff as now (which no one complained about before when the Astros killed everyone as a 1 seed).
In general, having 8-team divisions with winning the division having a meaningful reward would be so appropriate, recalling baseball's history until the '60s when each league had 8 teams.
Good choices on names too.
Thanks. It’ll never happen, unfortunately. I’m convinced they’ll go to eight four team divisions with expansion which is a disaster.
In the Clemente Division, just replace Carolina with Tennessee :)
Actually, North Carolina has a richer baseball history than does Tennessee, and it would be appropriate for the state to have a major league franchise. It just seems that there is a lot of momentum for Nashville.
Either one goes in the Clemente. Chicago and St. Louis can piss up a rope and go to the West (er Robinson) Division.
I think they could chop some regular season games off in this set up too. Twelve games against all 7 division opponents (84 games). Six games against all 8 division teams in your leg (48 games). And 24 games against one division in the other league, alternating divisions by year, for a total of 156.
It’s more about pioneers in the game than better players. If we went by WAR, Honus or a slew of other players from teams in that division have Clemente beat.
Pirates sticking with Sportsnet Pittsburgh. They will jointly own the network with the Pens.
At least we should have consistent coverage of sporting events so thats a win, hopefully also decent network revenue
Joint ownership of the network is interesting.
Dang, you beat me! Was going to Pat the same thing.
So the team signed a free agent, now they don’t have to worry about the union. Minimum requirements; checked ✔️
I'm willing to fast forward to 2025 if everyone else is too. Johan Oviedo was already a big loss for the season, but Rodriguez just adds to the disappointment. If neither got hurt and the Pirates added Marco Gonzales and Rowdy Tellez, would anyone feel great about the upcoming season? Maybe we can sign a petition to just skip 2024?
Are you asking for 2024 to be deferred? I’m good with that.
This made me lol
I understand the sentiment, but if injuries to two players who were starters but nowhere near stars (yet) undermines an entire season, that just shows how poorly the rebuild is going.
Of course I can't count how many times Shelton cited injuries from May to August, so we know this administration is quick to look for excuses when things aren't going well.
What I was saying is that they weren't in a great place WITH them, so it's obviously worse without them. They were both key players for a potential solid season BUT the Pirates needed to add to them. Now they are still in a position where they have to build to get to the low spot they were already at.
I would have rather them sign Lewin Diaz for 1st than Tellez, at least Diaz can field. Still wish they would have aimed higher.
Well... at least Tellez should know, having played in Milwaukee, not to hit the sausages girls with a baseball bat, unlike a former Pirates' firstbaseman. So, they have that going for them.
I'm starting to think I would rather have a post wrapped in fly paper than most of the 1B they send out there.
Or even just keep Rivas, who at least wouldn't have hurt us on defense.
Its sad that Rivas really does feel like it would be a better option than rivas
I’m thinking more of skipping the rest of BC’s tenure. He’s solidly in Littlefield territory now.
The last step to entering Littlefield territory is the Matt Morris trade. If Cherington could just trade away Bowen or some other middling prospect for a overpaid, sub-mediocre with the Pirates 20 games back at the trade deadline, he will become, offcially, Littlefied 2.0, having replicated every feat of incompetence.
You’re being far too narrow in your thinking I’m afraid. Skipping the ownership tenure might not even do it if you believe Nutting’s claim that his family will never sell. Admit it, Pirate fans are doomed, doomed, doomed to exist in the ultimate losers universe forever. Too negative?
Bob's probably thinking, "there's a young whipper snapper from Amherst just around the corner to turn this around in 4 or 5 years."
You know... the Astros hire guys who worked for NASA, guys with degrees in engineering. The Pirates hire a never-ending string of liberal arts people from touchy-feely liberal arts schools in New England. The difference between these two teams is not just payroll. I am not saying that there at not smart people in history or English or whatever. There are... but there are also a lot of dummies. There are no dummies in engineering, and you can't BS your way through your coursework by stroking your professors' political sentiments.
The pitching situation alone had me looking to 2025. Endy's injury is the cherry on top.
Plus there's a legit chance that Vogelbach part II hurts more than it helps. He had -0.9 WAR last year at age 28. This is his prime. Even at his best he's not a 1.0 WAR player
I was never a believer in the owner, but I'm also losing confidence in BC. The injuries I chalk up to bad luck, but it seems like our best prospects aren't as good as our competitors' best prospects. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm expecting too much, too soon?