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WTM's avatar

Pirates called up Yohan Ramirez, optioned Triolo and dfa’d Gorski.

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bmcferren's avatar

A sign we are about to sign le mewho

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Melkel's avatar

So Gorski is pretty much as good as gone. He has to be traded or released because he's on the injured list, I think.

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1979andCounting's avatar

Yeah hate that, but maybe there's an agreement to re-sign him in October?

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Darren's avatar

Gorski deserved better. Given he is injured they could have called him up and put him on the 60 day injured list. Would have cost a few bucks but his power and defensive value gives him a high floor. Also could have DFAd Peguro, who is in his last option year and not only still scuffling at Triple A but getting no play at the big league level anyhow. Bae, Darrell Hicks, Borucki and Mayza are others I would have cut over Gorski. The latter two are pending free agents and won't possibly be tradable at the trade deadline so what's the point of holding on to them. Not to make a mountain out of a molehill but this is just further proof that Ben sucks at his job.

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1979andCounting's avatar

Another strange move with Gorski, espec after watching two big dudes mash Hrs for the Royals this week.

Hoping he clears waivers and gets healthy.

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Melkel's avatar

They have to release him if he is not traded, he's on the injured list.

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StatsCbl's avatar

So why didn't they put him on the 60 day retroactive to May 23rd?

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Melkel's avatar

It was still the milb injury list not the mlb, must have been for the total number they can have on all milb rosters. I'm assuming it's like the mlb 60 IL that the player doesn't count against the total roster.

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TNBucs's avatar

Triolo needed to be optioned and I'm not worried about losing Gorski, but it seems odd to recall a reliever for a series following an off day and before the All Star break. But maybe they're planning to limit Skenes' pitch count again and Burrows hasn't gone more than 5.1 innings, so maybe there will be a need for another arm.

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WTM's avatar

Maybe they made a deal to get Yohan to re-sign. Kinda odd, but Nicolas isn’t making progress and they need some short term depth.

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bmcferren's avatar

I still think that Oscar is one click away from making Yohan an allstar

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1979andCounting's avatar

Yeah thought that whole sequence last week with Johan was strange. They were at 12 pitchers, 14 position players last week so kinda makes sense to go back to 13/13. But with only 3 games remaining.....?

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JRC21's avatar

Triolo has been platooning with Horwitz at first, and doing absolutely nothing at the plate. No other plausible candidates for this role that I can think of, so perhaps Horwitz will go back to playing full time.

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SouthernBuc's avatar

My guess is post all-star break maybe a better (bar is low) RH platoon partner is added to the roster. Twins are starting at least 2 RHP (last I looked game 2 was TBD but maybe all likely options are RH -- didn't do my homework). Maybe they don't feel they will need a starting platoon partner over the weekend.

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JRC21's avatar

Who would that person be? There is no plausible candidates in the organization.

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WTM's avatar

Twins have no LH SP, so it’d have to be a callup or opener.

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WTM's avatar

If it wasn’t the Pirates, I’d say this makes sense.

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WTM's avatar

Horwitz vs LHPs < Triolo

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JRC21's avatar
5dEdited

Kiley McDaniel of ESPN up with his latest mock draft. It is identical to Mayo’s from last evening: Anderson, then Doyle, then the Mariners grab Hernandez at #3, Holliday falls to the Rockies at #4, the Cards take Willits, and the Pirates take Arquette, passing on the rest of the high school shortstops. (He has Parker going to the Marlins with the next pick).

So a consensus among the top analysts is starting to emerge. Callis is going to weigh in Saturday evening.

If you want to look for a positive, he says that the Pirates will take Hernandez if he is available.

Edit: McDaniel’s draft goes two rounds, and the draft gurus here are not going to be happy to learn that he has them going college position player as well with their next two picks: Luke Stevenson, catcher from North Carolina at #50 and Ethan Petry, 1B South Carolina at #73. FWIW Stevenson is ranked 33 on MLB Pipeline and Petry is ranked 59.

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agent00's avatar

yeah if the mariners don't take arquette, i expect the pirates to get him, sadly

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Slider71's avatar

I’m going to put on my optimistic hat today. This 6 game losing streak has seen some legit starting pitching on the other side. Seems like every time I look at the pitching matchup, we are facing Cy Young. Where are the 5.00 era guys???

Woo-2.77 era

Castillo- 3.30 era

Kirby-4.22 era career 3.30 however

Cameron- 2.36 era

Lugo- 2.67 era

Bubic - 2.48 era

Tonight we have Ryan 2.76 era

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RetireNutting's avatar

I think I'm going to have to put my 12 year old dog down today so I hope you're right. A Pirates win would at least be something. I'd even take a well-played game.

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StatsCbl's avatar

Sorry to hear that. Let's get a win,

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Melkel's avatar

Sorry about that

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RetireNutting's avatar

Thanks all. Her back two legs just stopped working the other night. Sweet old blue pitty and I've been lugging her 85 lb body around the last few days. It sounds like I'll keep doing that a few more days. We're going to do home euthanasia early next week. Still, let's hope for a good ballgame tonight and a nice outing by Skenes.

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Anthony Murphy's avatar

Sorry to hear that. I have a soon to be 13 year old Pitty whose backlegs are working less and less lately. Can't do too long of walks now she doesn't handle them as well. Can't imagine how I'll do when it gets to that point.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Thank you. It's tough. Pittys are such good creatures.

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SouthernBuc's avatar

Sorry... that is never easy.

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Amos Moses's avatar

Man, that sucks. Hang in there.

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StatsCbl's avatar

I bet if we really studied what team wins a series in baseball, the pitching match-ups might have more to do with it than one might think. Here are two extreme examples recently.

1) When the Pirates plastered the Mets last week, we were happy to see our hitters finally get out of their funk. In reality most of it might have been that the Mets pitching was just so beat up that series and just made our hitters look better.

2) When we got shut out by the Mariners, the conclusion was our hitting just hit an all-time low. Maybe in reality it our hitting didn't get much worse, but we just faced the best pitching we have seen in a series.

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1979andCounting's avatar

On the flip side, the Yankees just swept the Mariners, including coming back from 5-0 deficit with Woo on the mound, scoring 2 off him, 1 off Brash, and 2 off Munoz.

So look it can be done!

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TNBucs's avatar

Was it Earl Weaver or another legendary manager who said momentum is only as good as the next day's pitcher?

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JRC21's avatar

Not sure. But Weaver was the one who never held a team meeting, the rationale being, what if you have a team meeting and then charge on the field and lose?

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Slider71's avatar

Agree completely. And looking at tonight’s matchup of Skenes vs Ryan the pitching matchup favors the Pirates. But the reality is every team in baseball has a better offense than the Pirates, so there is a pretty good chance we lose a 1-0, 2-1 game tonight. The Margins are slim, and the Pirates just aren’t good enough despite having some very good pitching

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Steve's avatar

Niu pick would be fine with Greg brown and Brett Michael's both from mechicburg pa.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Perotto (there's your attribution Catch22) claims Cherington is signed through 2027 so—because Mothpocket's Bob is such a skinflint—we're likely stuck with him longer than we think: https://pittsburghbaseballnow.com/ben-cherington-job-status-pittsburgh-pirates/

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JRC21's avatar

DK has another long diatribe on Cherington and the Pirates today. He 100% guarantees that Cherington will be gone at the end of the season. Absolute lock that this is happening. He further claims that Nutting will not sign off on trades of anyone other than the guys on expiring contracts because he’s encouraged by the Pirates play under Kelly and doesn’t trust Cherington to make good deals.

What a mess.

As for DK vs. Perrotto we’ll see who is right because each has staked his ground pretty clearly.

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Aurorus Borealus's avatar

I hope DK is right.

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RetireNutting's avatar

In even bigger news, Cherington's house just sold

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JRC21's avatar

Thanks for sharing. That is deeply disturbing. It really seems hopeless as long as Nutting is owner.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Seems to be the reality of it, yep. Once Nutting latches on to a yes man who promises the "moon and sun but cheaply done" he doesn't let go until he feels he has to. Reading Bob's a true believer that he's the right steward for this franchise through the next CBA was troubling, too.

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Aurorus Borealus's avatar

Everyone seemed to like his answers in that interview. To me, the answer as to why he should remain owner of the franchise was flat-out wrong (not incoherent, off-topic, or anything else... wrong). His answer was basically that he is the best candidate to convince Cohen, Steinbrenner, and Walter to give him more of the revenues that their franchises earn. That is ridiculous. I am the best candidate to own the team because I am a better thief of other people's money. How about, I am the best person to own the team because I understand the market, the people of Pittsburgh, how to operate in a small market, and how to make good hiring decisions and find the best people to manage the team. That would be the correct answer. Any other answer is wrong.

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RetireNutting's avatar

He's lied himself into thinking that the only way to make the Pirates a good investment is to increase profit sharing. Good luck convincing a man who's dividends depend on otherwise not being convinced. The same goes for Cohen, Steinbrenner and the others but they have more power.

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Aurorus Borealus's avatar

No. It's his and the Pirates' modus operandi. We can only compete if the taxpayers buy us a new stadium. We can only compete if the county pays more for the maintenance of the stadium. We can only compete if Cohen writes me a personal check every year for $20 million.

Not once has he said, "We can only compete if I hired competent people to run the organization." He is the welfare queen of billionaires and like everyone he hires, takes no personal responsibility for his failures as a businessman.

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TNBucs's avatar

Given how Cherington has thrown Nutting's money at replacement-level FAs, perhaps Nutting would look at firing Cherington as a net savings.

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Melkel's avatar

Nutting just needs to hire a president of baseball operations over Cherington, it work in Boston.

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TNBucs's avatar

I don't know nearly enough about the four senior VPs under Cherington (Gelles, Graves, Sanders, Stroh), but firing Cherington and promoting one of them couldn't be worse, right? And that would have a very minimal, if any, effect on Bob's bottom line.

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RetireNutting's avatar

I'm on board! Any good candidates spring to mind?

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Melkel's avatar
5dEdited

Josh Byrnes

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TNBucs's avatar

How about someone who oversaw the near impossible, taking a team that hadn't had a winning record in decades to the 2nd best record in all of MLB?

Of course Nutting will never admit the mistake he made in 2019 when he bowed to media pressure to can the only good GM we've had in the last 30+ years.

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NMR's avatar

hahaha WOW that's a take

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RetireNutting's avatar

Huntington got caught flat-footed and was too slow to adapt, no thanks.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Byrnes could be good. What about someone from Baltimore for “Hitting GM” and Cherington can be “Pitching GM”?

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Melkel's avatar

Not sure Brendan last name starts with an F, he was with the Astros before he joined the Orioles.

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RetireNutting's avatar

I like it. Make Cherington a co-GM and install Byrnes over both of them and have Travis Williams be Chief Bob Nutting Charity PR Shield. Edited to share I think you were thinking of Brendan Fournie: https://climbingtalshill.com/2021/12/14/astros-lose-baseball-operations-hand-to-the-orioles/

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WTM's avatar

If Cherington's still going to be there, I'd opt for Freddie Krueger.

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RetireNutting's avatar

This is what nerdball gets you:

• Since 2020, the Pirates are last in MLB in runs (3,095), slugging percentage (.368), OPS (.670), home runs (724) and on-base percentage (.302).

• They're 29th in runs scored (319) this season, but that's also just one more than the White Sox, who had played one fewer game as of Thursday morning. They’re last or tied for last in slugging percentage (.340) and OPS (.641) this season.

• Of the 14 hitters Cherington has added within a week of the trade deadline since 2020, the eight who’ve made MLB have added a grand total of .3 bWAR.

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Aurorus Borealus's avatar

The problem is not "nerdball" as you put it. The problem is fake-nerdball. Cherington and company want to create systems to analyze large volumes of statistical data and study and apply biometrics to athletes, yet no one, so far as I know, in the front office has a background that corresponds to either of these capacities. These are a bunch of liberal arts majors with degrees in transcultural studies or some such nonsense playing with statistics and biometrics. If they had had any facility with or interest in hard science or mathematics, they would have pursued those fields in college instead of taking courses in Challenging and Contesting Identity and Images of the Body across Cultures.

They are charlatans who liked baseball and learned how to BS in BS fields, so they BSed their way into jobs with major-league baseball teams. An actual nerd, who understood how to study and use biometrics or statistics, would strike terror in these people, because the nerd would expose them as frauds.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Wait, you don't count hiring this guy as hiring a hard scientist? https://barthanegraaff.weebly.com/coaches--employers.html

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Aurorus Borealus's avatar

I rest my case.

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Catch22's avatar

Thank you, Jason Mackey.

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RetireNutting's avatar

I've noticed you have a habit of being really sensitive about things posted on the internet. Is that a choice you've actively made for yourself and are aware of or a more subconscious one for you?

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Catch22's avatar

Just be you, Billy. If you get off on copy/pasting articles and hijacking threads, then do your thing. Don't let me get in the way.

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RetireNutting's avatar

You didn't find the numbers at all interesting, I take it. I thought they were helpful in putting just how bad Cherington has been in perspective. To each their own!

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Catch22's avatar

It's redundant. Everyone knows how bad he has been with hitters. I read Mackey's article at the Gazette, hear him repeat it all over again on X. Turn on the FAN and he's talking about it there. Now we got you back and of course you're going to plaster it all over.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Another instance of sensitivity. Strange.

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RetireNutting's avatar

Like do you think Mackey would actually object to 3 bulleted factoids from his article being posted on a substack consisting of a few hundred readers?

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Melkel's avatar

Don't forget his stellar drafting of college hitters outside the first round. None have made it to triple A other than organizational depth (Jarvis).

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RetireNutting's avatar

Make it stop, Nutting. It'd be fun to do an analysis on team stats vs the league under Cherington and Littlefield. I'm not sure Littlefield was worse than Cherington at this point.

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NMR's avatar

Antwone Kelly MY GOODNESS

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PirateRican21's avatar

Already calling him the freak .2 and I’m gonna make it stick.

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Scott Kliesen's avatar

Out of the box idea of the day…

Rather than fire BC, he should be given a President of Baseball Operations who is responsible for trades, hitting development and FA signings. BC will oversee the things he’s been successful at, pitching development, the draft, and IFA.

I like the idea of Mike Rizzo orchestrating deals for Keller and eventually Skenes, than BC. Conversely, I trust BC more than Rizzo to draft the right players.

Maybe between these two we can have a competent FO?

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StatsCbl's avatar

I love out of the box ideas.

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Catch22's avatar

You don't want Rizzo, Scott. He's so far behind the times. Those 2 working together would be an unmitigated disaster.

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Scott Kliesen's avatar

I want the modern day Woods, Abrahms, and Gore return for Skenes, and PCA for Keller.

If BC is given the opportunity to deal Skenes and Keller, we’ll likely get several more light hitting MI’s to play corner OF.

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1979andCounting's avatar

Rizzo did quite well with trades and very very poorly with draft picks. Quite a dichotomy.

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WTM's avatar

Haha, Rizzo is famously resistant to analytics and Cherington can’t choose a parking space without running 1000 simulations. Shrapnel would become a major hazard on Federal St.

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Bob Nutting's avatar

Rizzo also wants to make money so he's out.

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TNBucs's avatar

Somewhat interesting that the projected starters have Keller replacing Heaney. It makes sense from purely trying to win games with the off day and the large home/road split that Heaney has, but this time of year the possibility of showcasing pitchers for the deadline also pops to mind. I don't think they'd be doing that with Keller but maybe they factored in increasing the chances that Heaney looks good in his next couple of outings, now both of which will be at home.

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Chris Chapman's avatar

He hasn’t been striking out very much which consoles me, but definitely in a July slump. This is why it is good to let him stay at a level for a bit. See if the pitchers and coaches at High A can find some weaknesses. It is also a long season and this is his first time through it.

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Arky Wags's avatar

Great observation. Also reminds us that this dude is very much ahead of schedule this season. I think you hope a high drafted prep bat gets to high A in August if they do well. Most of us would have considered that a win, and he got there in June. And given the adjustments he’s made so far, I have lots of faith he can get through this as well.

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Catch22's avatar

walks up, k's down, which is obviously good. I like to see his exit velos but I don't think they have statcast for those guys. Either way, we're going to see how he handles a little adversity for the first time as a pro.

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JRC21's avatar
5dEdited

Dare I say that Griffin is actually in a little slump? He hasn’t done anything spectacular this week and his OPS at Greensboro has dipped below .900 for the first time. Maybe he’s too keyed up for the Futures Game.

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TNBucs's avatar

And speaking of Griffin, I wonder if his success has any impact on whether we draft Parker. On one hand, I assume they were/are under the same area scout and cross-checker(s) and I'd imagine if the scouts like him there would be a lot of trust in that opinion. E.g., if they want him selected all they'd probably have to say is "he's another KG".

OTOH, if they're evaluating him based on what they saw with Griffin, maybe he doesn't quite live up to that.

Just something that popped in my head yesterday thinking about the coincidence that we could go back-to-back with MS HS SS's.

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Arky Wags's avatar

Not Pirates related, but RIP to Lee Elia, author of one of the most famous manager rants for the Cubs in 1983. It’s worth a listen and it is, uhhhh…NSFW.

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Cobra 39's avatar

I had to listen to it again yesterday. One of the all time best in any sport.

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JRC21's avatar

I’ve wondered the same thing. The area scout is Darren Mazeroski, Maz’s son.

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TNBucs's avatar

Now that some outlets have him as a top prospect in all of baseball, he's surely feeling some pressure and every pitcher he faces will be extra focused on getting him out, or pitching around him to avoid being tagged with a HR.

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Scott Kliesen's avatar

Being the top prospect in baseball is not necessarily a good thing. I really hope this doesn’t go to his head, or make him feel additional pressure to succeed than when he was ranked lower.

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1979andCounting's avatar

Wouldn't worry about that. Griffin already said out loud he wants to be in the HOF someday. So the kid isn't likely to let outside pressure affect him.

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Arky Wags's avatar

Bust :)

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JRC21's avatar

As you know, we Pirate fans love to panic. But seriously it shows you how amazing he’s been. I expect something awesome every day.

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Arky Wags's avatar

I know. I see 0 for 3 with a walk and a steal, and I’m disappointed. I’m spoiled already.

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Melkel's avatar

Well the walk was intentional and he only hit one scorching line drive out. Yep we're spoiled.

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WTM's avatar

We never got over Mark Merchant.

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Mel Schuster - emjayinTN's avatar

Very interesting article in BA about some "way down the list" draft possibilities. Some that interested me -

* Matt Barr - 6'6" RHP who pitched for SUNY this year and has now signed with Tennessee. He was 10-0 with a 1.74 ERA at SUNY.

* Jake Cook - 6'3" 185 LH hitting CF from Southern Miss - 350/436/468/904 OPS, short, contact oriented swing, 31 BB/19 K, ++ Runner

*Maika Niu, Marshall U, Bats R, 276/343/560/903 OPS,14 doubles, 15 HR. Playing on the Cape with a 338/404/650/1.054 OPS, and his 7 HR, 18 RBI lead the league. Played at New Orleans U his first two years. Grad of Trinity HS in Mechanicsburg, PA. Perfect Game 3rd Best OF in PA.

*Landyn Vidourek, OF Cincy, Bats L, Hon Mention All Big 12, 6'1" 192, 90th %tile EV of 109.9, several balls in 110+ EV, chase rate of only 17%, swing decisions "advanced".

Hard not to like any of these kids when we get into Rounds 5-9 or earlier. Barr will have to go early, and he may be making a lot in NIL dollars. Tenn has a history of sending big time pitchers to MLB in the Tony Vitello Era. BC may be all over Niu already because of his success in the Cape Cod Wooden Bat League, but I would also make room for Vidourek and Cook.

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SufferinBuccotash's avatar

Bubba seems to have gotten himself back on track. I imagine we'll finally see him after the trade deadline, barring an injury prior to that.

If they trade 2 starters, here's hoping Ashcraft gets a shot at the second opening.

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TNBucs's avatar

Perfect timing for the Pirates as it's well beyond Super 2 and probably too late for him to have a shot at ROY (which he probably couldn't have contended for anyway, especially with Misiorowski* in the running).

*Struck out 12 Dodgers in 6 innings this week while allowing only 4 hits and 1 BB.

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WTM's avatar

“Bubba back on track” was the headline of BA’s daily newsletter.

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Catch22's avatar

Bubba still has some stuff to work on. I don't know if it's first inning jitters or what, but he threw a slew of noncompetitive pitches in the first. This seems to be a thing with him.

I wouldn't expect him to kick the door in like Jared Jones did, I expect some initial struggles like Chase Burns and Chase Petty in their first taste of the show. He'll ultimately be fine, but I think we could see some struggles.

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Mel Schuster - emjayinTN's avatar

The only thing that could be viewed as a concern for Bubba was the number of pitches (100), but he is definitely ready for a trip to MLB. And the Bucs are training a strong group of late innings pitchers in Eddy Yean, Cam Sanders, and Kyle Nicolas among others at AAA. Yean came in the Bell trade, Nicolas in the Stallings trade, and Sanders from the Cubs Org. Sanders was 9/10 in Saves at Altoona, but Nicolas and Yean are "sharing" the Closer role in AAA at present.

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Catch22's avatar

Highest # of pitches Bubba has thrown in a game as a pro.

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Melkel's avatar

His highest velocity was on his last pitch, I think.

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StatsCbl's avatar

I think he and Skenes both are trying to stay away from max velocity, unless it is really needed. And probably a few other pitchers in the organization.

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WTM's avatar

They don’t do that sort of thing by accident.

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Catch22's avatar

No sir. Thought the same when watching.

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WTM's avatar

When he gave up a two out hit in the sixth I thought sure they’d take him out. They do that sort of thing all the time, inc Antwone Kelly yesterday. When they didn’t, I thought, Hmmmm ……..

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JRC21's avatar

Nicolas has gotten frequent chances in the big leagues already and has not done well. Shown little control and his fastball is hittable by major league hitters. Not saying that he can’t emerge, but he’s in AAA for a reason instead of a scrap heap guy like Mattison.

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