Right now, per BR, Hank has the lowest WAR of any #1 pick to make the majors. Ahead of the only three #1s to not make the majors (Steve Chilcott, Brien Taylor, and Brady Aiken), and last year’s Travis Bazzana.
Let me know, anyone, if you want me to dig up anymore good news!
I know the obvious answer to why guys like Davis and Suwinski mash in AAA and struggle in MLB. But just to be sure, I really hope they get an opportunity to prove themselves under a whole new management team.
I'm not ready to give up but if you told me that there wouldn't be a change to management in the next year, I'd say go ahead and waive both so that they at least get an opportunity somewhere else, like maybe Sacramento.
The Pirate's own starting catcher and current 8th most valuable in the game didn't click until he was 27 *with* the Pirates. The 2nd best catcher in the league right now is a 30 yo on his sixth team.
Based on the predicted records being thrown out on Opening Day, I think there would have been some pushback if anyone had suggested we'd be 6 games out by May 7...
That we're 6 games out of _4th_ place would have been barely believable.
And while I'm down this rabbit hole, only six teams in MLB have below a 2% chance of making the playoffs according to FG (in decreasing order, starting with 1.4%): Angels, us, Nationals, Marlins, White Sox, Rockies. Eleven of our 37 games have been against our hapless peers, but hey at least we're 6-5 against them! We can hold our own against the worst.
Well the good news is, the Angels, Nationals, and Rockies are not eligible for the '26 draft lottery (Cardinals as well). Better odds on getting a top 3 pick.
Can we hope for a repeat of the '23 draft when there were several supposed generational talents?
Speaking of which, even though Crews has yet to find success, Langford has a 153 wRC+ which seems pretty remarkable given that he was still playing college ball two years ago.
There was a small but determined group of quants, scouts, and cross-checkers who maintained Langford was the guy to get over Crews. I reposted their data and assessments in other baseball forums at draft time — mostly to crickets.
Their case was that Langford had higher OPS coming into the draft than Crews, more extra base hits, comparable K/bb % but most noticeably, better spray and substantially better line drive and ground ball rates than Crews.
Crews came into the draft a nearly 50% ground ball hitter and, unlike Langford, his ground ball and line drive rates went in the wrong direction from 22-23. A lot of Crews’ success in college came from blasting the shit out of the ball on the ground past infielders, an approach that skeptics predicted would be less successful in the bigs.
Also Langford played two seasons in the summer wood bat leagues and posted comparable stats to his college numbers. Crews had not played in wood leagues aside from 12 PAs early on in his college career.
No doubt another factor in the Crews over Langford camp is the positional argument. Crews played center in college and while it seems he’s better suited to a corner, scouting reports indicated he’d be above average in right. Defensive reports on Langford were…pretty bad. Either FG or ESPN said he was pretty brutal his final year at Florida.
That term is tossed around far too much, but you never know. Skenes was considered a first round talent before the season and then took off like a rocket. Crews and Langford went wire-to-wire from preseason to draft time as top 5 talents. Pundits also said Jenkins/Clark were worthy #1s in an average draft year.
One thing to remember about 2023. Juniors from that season were HS seniors in the pandemic draft season, which was shortened to five rounds. So the college crop that year was, in all likelihood, abnormally strong.
It also helped the '24 draft on the college side. The prep class from '21 missed their showcase year of '20 where some players really separate themselves.
It's endemic thru the system....tootblans. Didn't see the play, but it's 90% certainty the 3rd base coach effed up. You point to the bag and hold up the runner with the other hand, and get verbal as well. The coach is less than 10 ft away from the bag. Unless the ball trickled away and then Rivas re-started toward home.
Catch and I are probably the most contrarian Haines bros on this site and even I don't think we *really* believed fans thought Haines was the problem. Come on guys, please tell me you didn't actually think Haines was the problem.
For one thing, I think fans in every sport are likelier to blame coaches before players. For whatever reason.
Beyond that, I think baseball is inherently more challenging as far as assessing position coaches’ performance than assessing, say, coordinators’ performance in football.
In football, if you watch ball it’s easy enough to see when an offensive coordinator has a sophomoric scheme, or one than doesn’t work to the players’ strengths. It’s easy to see and second-guess brain dead playcalling
That doesn’t mean fans are right, just that it’s more visible than in baseball. I mean, who can honestly say they know what makes a hitting or pitching coach good or bad — in specific terms, not just generalities?
Something specific to the Pirates is that they’ve been among the worst in MLB in backwards K’s and nothing burns baseball fans’ asses more than backwards K’s. If I had to guess I’d assume it goes back to little league when you’re drilled to take a two-strike approach and at least make contact.
I also think it’s too soon to expect Hague to have much of an impact. Well, theoretically anyway. In reality, the Cheringtons just can’t hit. The bad luck will never stop no matter who’s the coach.
Agreed. But at the same time, what the hell happened to the guy who hit two homers off Shohei Ohtani? His rookie year at the plate was not mind blowing, but it was at least passable and theoretically something to build on. Now he’s a .100 hitter with no power and no walks. I don’t get it.
Every morning this season has felt like the early repeats in "Groundhog Day" --- what the hell is going on and how can I make it stop. Maybe Cherington needs to kidnap that damn groundhog and drive it off a cliff.
On the other hand, I could use this season to learn Italian and woo Andie McDowell.
An IMPERFECT 6 for 6 in the Top Exit Velo's - all for outs!!!!!!
Good to see Spencer Horwitz transferred to AAA Indy and responding with a 2-4 night incl a single, double, run scored, and 1 K while playing the whole game at 1B.
Also nice to see Liover Peguero with one of the 4 Pirate hits in the MLB game involving the Pirates last night after resting on the bench since being promoted from AAA. He played 2B last night; Jared Triolo has been at SS since the IKF injury, and was placed 5th in the batting order? Must have been some numbers favoring TRI against the Cardinals SP?
I could probably name 15 to 20 people on this Board who could assume the role of Manager of this team and do as well or better than Derek Shelton! But, what can we expect from a guy only in his 6th year of incompetence while making ONLY $1.5 mil, which is more than about half of the Managers in MLB!
Where did you see that Shelton makes $1.5M? I didn't think they ever announced his salary.
That just makes me laugh all the harder when I hear Joe Starkey complain on The Fan that they could have had Terry Francona managing the team this year.
I googled MLB Managers Salaries, went to the site and Front Office Sports had the Top 20 highest paid Managers for 2025. According to the list, Shelton was tied for 14th with Carlos Mendoza (Mets) both being paid $1.5 mil. Just ahead of them was Kevin Cash at 13th making $1.66 mil and just below Shelton and Mendoza was AJ Hinch of Detroit, 16th at $1.2 mil. From 1 thru 12 - Dave Roberts, Craig Counsel, Alex Cora, Torey Lovullo, Bruce Bochy, Aaron Boone, Tied at 7th making $4 mil were Ron Washington, Mike Shildt, Brian Snitker, Stephen Vogt, and Bob Melvin. 12th was Dave Martinez at $3.5 mil, and then Kevin Cash.
How about Don Kelly, 45, our Bench Coach, who was one of the top candidates for managerial positions at the time he accepted the Bench Coach position with the Pirates so he could get his family back to Pittsburgh. Born in W PA, HS Baseball at Mt Lebo (I think), college baseball at Point Park College, 8 or 9 years in MLB, 3 or 4 of which were under HOF and Former Pirate Manager Jim Leyland when Leyland Managed the Detroit Tigers. Brother-in-Law to Neil Walker, and part of the Walker Clan that was the heart and soul of this franchise not too long ago.
THIS FRANCHISE NEEDS A LOCAL WHO BLEEDS BLACK AND GOLD!
So I had to google Francona's salary after I saw your response and that he wasn't listed at all. Terms of his contract were never released, but it's thought to be in the 3 year, $14M range....
I just couldn't believe that he would make less Shelton.
Right now, per BR, Hank has the lowest WAR of any #1 pick to make the majors. Ahead of the only three #1s to not make the majors (Steve Chilcott, Brien Taylor, and Brady Aiken), and last year’s Travis Bazzana.
Let me know, anyone, if you want me to dig up anymore good news!
Caveat to this - Davis was rushed faster than any 1-1 position player since 1970 something
I know the obvious answer to why guys like Davis and Suwinski mash in AAA and struggle in MLB. But just to be sure, I really hope they get an opportunity to prove themselves under a whole new management team.
I'm not ready to give up but if you told me that there wouldn't be a change to management in the next year, I'd say go ahead and waive both so that they at least get an opportunity somewhere else, like maybe Sacramento.
Interestingly, Tank’s top % in Quality of Contact stats has dropped and his under % has spiked from previous years: 26% in 2023 to 40% this year.
The Pirate's own starting catcher and current 8th most valuable in the game didn't click until he was 27 *with* the Pirates. The 2nd best catcher in the league right now is a 30 yo on his sixth team.
Baseball works in mysterious ways.
Also…catching is really frickin difficult. Being a productive catcher on both sides of the ball is even more difficult.
Based on the predicted records being thrown out on Opening Day, I think there would have been some pushback if anyone had suggested we'd be 6 games out by May 7...
That we're 6 games out of _4th_ place would have been barely believable.
And while I'm down this rabbit hole, only six teams in MLB have below a 2% chance of making the playoffs according to FG (in decreasing order, starting with 1.4%): Angels, us, Nationals, Marlins, White Sox, Rockies. Eleven of our 37 games have been against our hapless peers, but hey at least we're 6-5 against them! We can hold our own against the worst.
Well the good news is, the Angels, Nationals, and Rockies are not eligible for the '26 draft lottery (Cardinals as well). Better odds on getting a top 3 pick.
Can we hope for a repeat of the '23 draft when there were several supposed generational talents?
Speaking of which, even though Crews has yet to find success, Langford has a 153 wRC+ which seems pretty remarkable given that he was still playing college ball two years ago.
There was a small but determined group of quants, scouts, and cross-checkers who maintained Langford was the guy to get over Crews. I reposted their data and assessments in other baseball forums at draft time — mostly to crickets.
Their case was that Langford had higher OPS coming into the draft than Crews, more extra base hits, comparable K/bb % but most noticeably, better spray and substantially better line drive and ground ball rates than Crews.
Crews came into the draft a nearly 50% ground ball hitter and, unlike Langford, his ground ball and line drive rates went in the wrong direction from 22-23. A lot of Crews’ success in college came from blasting the shit out of the ball on the ground past infielders, an approach that skeptics predicted would be less successful in the bigs.
Also Langford played two seasons in the summer wood bat leagues and posted comparable stats to his college numbers. Crews had not played in wood leagues aside from 12 PAs early on in his college career.
No doubt another factor in the Crews over Langford camp is the positional argument. Crews played center in college and while it seems he’s better suited to a corner, scouting reports indicated he’d be above average in right. Defensive reports on Langford were…pretty bad. Either FG or ESPN said he was pretty brutal his final year at Florida.
I dunno I’m happy with the guy our team picked.
Same. I banged the drum early and often for Skenes. I’m not that smart so it’s felt good to be right LOL
'26 is a loaded prep class and should be stronger near the top for college hitters.
At least now. It always has changes.
That term is tossed around far too much, but you never know. Skenes was considered a first round talent before the season and then took off like a rocket. Crews and Langford went wire-to-wire from preseason to draft time as top 5 talents. Pundits also said Jenkins/Clark were worthy #1s in an average draft year.
One thing to remember about 2023. Juniors from that season were HS seniors in the pandemic draft season, which was shortened to five rounds. So the college crop that year was, in all likelihood, abnormally strong.
It also helped the '24 draft on the college side. The prep class from '21 missed their showcase year of '20 where some players really separate themselves.
And for those keeping track, we're now 33-58 (.363) since last year's trade deadline.
Termarr hit a dinger a few minutes ago in Altoona. Rivas hit a triple with a tootblan going back to third, Delgado homered the next at bat.
It's endemic thru the system....tootblans. Didn't see the play, but it's 90% certainty the 3rd base coach effed up. You point to the bag and hold up the runner with the other hand, and get verbal as well. The coach is less than 10 ft away from the bag. Unless the ball trickled away and then Rivas re-started toward home.
Didn't see it, first out at 3rd is a tootblan, very possible it was on the coach.
So is that like a triple and a quarter for Rivas?
Just tootblan, rounded third, shortstop threw to third. He was the leadoff hitter that inning. 1st out at third is an automatic tootblan.
This morning’s factoid courtesy of Eno Sarris of the Athletic:
The Pirates OPS on pitches over the heart of the plate is .696. Only the Blue Jays are worse.
The bottom five: Blue Jays, Pirates, Rockies, Royals, and Twins. But only the Blue Jays and Pirates are below .700.
Yeah, but Andy Haines...
Do we owe Andy an apology? Matt Hague has appeared to make zero difference.
Catch and I are probably the most contrarian Haines bros on this site and even I don't think we *really* believed fans thought Haines was the problem. Come on guys, please tell me you didn't actually think Haines was the problem.
For one thing, I think fans in every sport are likelier to blame coaches before players. For whatever reason.
Beyond that, I think baseball is inherently more challenging as far as assessing position coaches’ performance than assessing, say, coordinators’ performance in football.
In football, if you watch ball it’s easy enough to see when an offensive coordinator has a sophomoric scheme, or one than doesn’t work to the players’ strengths. It’s easy to see and second-guess brain dead playcalling
That doesn’t mean fans are right, just that it’s more visible than in baseball. I mean, who can honestly say they know what makes a hitting or pitching coach good or bad — in specific terms, not just generalities?
Something specific to the Pirates is that they’ve been among the worst in MLB in backwards K’s and nothing burns baseball fans’ asses more than backwards K’s. If I had to guess I’d assume it goes back to little league when you’re drilled to take a two-strike approach and at least make contact.
Amen brother.
Subsequently, Mitch Keller leads all MLB starters in >I the past 3 years.
Nah but had to start somewhere so I was a fan of it. Now I hope they clean house even though BC is the root of the problem here
You and me both.
I thought he was a symptom.
I also think it’s too soon to expect Hague to have much of an impact. Well, theoretically anyway. In reality, the Cheringtons just can’t hit. The bad luck will never stop no matter who’s the coach.
I actually thought Haines was a significant part of the problem. I really did.
It’s almost all talent or lack of it. The best hitting coach in the world ain’t gonna turn Henry Davis into Henry Aaron.
Agreed. But at the same time, what the hell happened to the guy who hit two homers off Shohei Ohtani? His rookie year at the plate was not mind blowing, but it was at least passable and theoretically something to build on. Now he’s a .100 hitter with no power and no walks. I don’t get it.
Sad part is the brass probably thought the same.
Proper fishbone analysis will show the root cause is much deeper than the hitting coach.
root cause is lack of talent.
then you peel that layer back - why a lack of talent - bad drafting developing and identifying hitting talent.
When you're boasting about acquiring Enmanuel Valdez, the problems run f*cking deep.
And yet Emanuel Valdez is absolutely what success looks like!
Joey Bart is like a 99th percentile outcome acquisition!
The totality of their organization cannot be ignored as a failure but these dudes are absolutely what success *does* look like.
That's big league baseball.
Every morning this season has felt like the early repeats in "Groundhog Day" --- what the hell is going on and how can I make it stop. Maybe Cherington needs to kidnap that damn groundhog and drive it off a cliff.
On the other hand, I could use this season to learn Italian and woo Andie McDowell.
Good plan.
An IMPERFECT 6 for 6 in the Top Exit Velo's - all for outs!!!!!!
Good to see Spencer Horwitz transferred to AAA Indy and responding with a 2-4 night incl a single, double, run scored, and 1 K while playing the whole game at 1B.
Also nice to see Liover Peguero with one of the 4 Pirate hits in the MLB game involving the Pirates last night after resting on the bench since being promoted from AAA. He played 2B last night; Jared Triolo has been at SS since the IKF injury, and was placed 5th in the batting order? Must have been some numbers favoring TRI against the Cardinals SP?
I could probably name 15 to 20 people on this Board who could assume the role of Manager of this team and do as well or better than Derek Shelton! But, what can we expect from a guy only in his 6th year of incompetence while making ONLY $1.5 mil, which is more than about half of the Managers in MLB!
Where did you see that Shelton makes $1.5M? I didn't think they ever announced his salary.
That just makes me laugh all the harder when I hear Joe Starkey complain on The Fan that they could have had Terry Francona managing the team this year.
I googled MLB Managers Salaries, went to the site and Front Office Sports had the Top 20 highest paid Managers for 2025. According to the list, Shelton was tied for 14th with Carlos Mendoza (Mets) both being paid $1.5 mil. Just ahead of them was Kevin Cash at 13th making $1.66 mil and just below Shelton and Mendoza was AJ Hinch of Detroit, 16th at $1.2 mil. From 1 thru 12 - Dave Roberts, Craig Counsel, Alex Cora, Torey Lovullo, Bruce Bochy, Aaron Boone, Tied at 7th making $4 mil were Ron Washington, Mike Shildt, Brian Snitker, Stephen Vogt, and Bob Melvin. 12th was Dave Martinez at $3.5 mil, and then Kevin Cash.
I'm sure David Ross would love another chance to manage, and show the Cubs that they were wrong to replace him.
How about Don Kelly, 45, our Bench Coach, who was one of the top candidates for managerial positions at the time he accepted the Bench Coach position with the Pirates so he could get his family back to Pittsburgh. Born in W PA, HS Baseball at Mt Lebo (I think), college baseball at Point Park College, 8 or 9 years in MLB, 3 or 4 of which were under HOF and Former Pirate Manager Jim Leyland when Leyland Managed the Detroit Tigers. Brother-in-Law to Neil Walker, and part of the Walker Clan that was the heart and soul of this franchise not too long ago.
THIS FRANCHISE NEEDS A LOCAL WHO BLEEDS BLACK AND GOLD!
So I had to google Francona's salary after I saw your response and that he wasn't listed at all. Terms of his contract were never released, but it's thought to be in the 3 year, $14M range....
I just couldn't believe that he would make less Shelton.
5th-9th in that lineup was literally AAA dudes that really have no business in an MLB lineup.
Matt Gorski is just a more athletic version of Will Craig.
When ya don't have to pitch to the 1-4 hitters, yer done. Catch, yer correct on this.
Just have a look at the pitches Cruz, Cutch and B-Rey have to choose from. It's ludicrous.
You can walk two of the three and you get .... Canario.... batting .143 with an ops of .395.
After that... Valdez... .214
After that... Triolo ... .140 and .399
After that... Davis... .133 and .345
You've heard of Murderer's Row?
This is Victim's Valley.
Can someone just learn to BUNT for cryin' outside?
______________________
“Ya know, someday these scientists are gonna invent something that will outsmart a rabbit.”
-Wabbit
Victims Valley! Gonna use that!
Without the legendary gif-worthy gaffe. Yet, at least. Let’s give him time.
time is all they have.
That play was my twitter banner header back before the site became unusable.
Man what a mess.
At least we didn't give up 9 runs in the 11th inning like the Cubbies!
Ha I don't know if you noticed that the Cubs are in first place and light years better than this bunch of bums.
let us have this one, bro.
If this is what it's come down to, have at it.