If falter, Selby, and sad sack were cut tomorrow, I could care less. All the keepers performed well yesterday. So far this spring is the most encouraging I have seen in a decade. Keep healthy.
Falter is not a bad guy to have on a roster for games the starting pitcher has to come out early. He can give you the innings and save the bullpen. And half of the time, he can hold his own. The other half, ouch.
Heard some interesting discussions yesterday about Skenes’ workload and debut this summer.
While many of us want him up as quickly as possible, it may make sense to hold him down & ease him into the pro routine to preserve some innings for the MLB club in the 2nd half of the year.
Based on the treatment of other top pitching prospects, i’d expect them to try to keep him under 150 IP this year. First 10 starts at AA, 3-4 innings each, ~35 IP. 5-10 starts at AAA, 5-6 innings each, ~45 IP. 10-15 starts in MLB with a “normal” workload, probably 6 innings each on average, ~70 IP.
Final guesstimate: In AA through May, AAA through July. Debuts with the Pirates in August, makes 12 starts in MLB, 4.05 ERA over 72 IP. Mixed results, but lots of Ks and *at least* one gem.
Personally I would have held Skenes back until mid-March. Shelton and Oscar are ramping him up in February. I would expect 5 AA starts, 5 AAA starts, hopefully on 5 or 6 days rest. Let him build up to 6 IP. Then as soon as Super 2 date passes, get him to the Pirates, assuming he has checked all the boxes and has comfort with his slider/or offspeed pitch.
Is there any research that supports building up innings is what is best for the pitchers arms? When the pitchers know they are throwing just an inning or two, they ramp it up like they are a closer. (That can't be good.) I know this sounds crazy, but if you really want to build up pitchers arm strengths, the limit should be on how fast they can throw or on how many strenuous pitches they can throw. (I know the hitters would like it.)
Well they could ask some successful pitchers who are still with us from the last century who didn't have access to any of these data points how they did it, lol. Tell Nutting it will save him a nickel and he'll buy those last century guys a cup of coffee for their advice.
good question & an interesting theory. i’d have to imagine teams are looking at those data points given all the information they have available to them.
To your point, innings pitched definitely doesn’t give the whole picture. 100, 20-pitch innings obviously does not equal 100, 10-pitch innings.
I heard Mike Marshall say something similar a few years back, but it is more the 40 or so years of coaching high school cross country and track. If I had a strict miles limit (similar to inning limit), runners would run too hard and there would be 10 times as many leg injuries. Sure we build up the miles, but the limit needs to be on how hard they practice and how often they run hard.
I think the billion dollar invention is to have a pitcher where a chip or chips on his arm that tells instantaneously feeds back to the staff the amount of strain it is causing on the arm.
I think you're speaking to the wisdom of our baseball elders. The minor leagues were exactly where you built up a kid's stamina through practices exactly like those you say. This recent showcasification of development does not leave room for nuance.
That’s a really good guesstimate and a good strategy. I would be really pissed if the Pirates frittered away contract control of Skenes in the 2030 season so he could stick with the team this April. Once he’s in the big leagues, you can’t control his pitch count irregardless of game situations, you can in Altoona. I would love to see him in June though.
Not aware. That said, last I saw Huntingdon's boys' soccer team they were very physically strong. There must be a move in the school to hit the weight room bc they were physically superior on the pitch. Maybe they're doing it in their athletics as a rule. But I hear the Mounties have a real tough girls' wrestling team! So watch it, buster!
It would have been great to see the Pirates go out and sign one or two mid rotation guys in free agency to allow the pitching prospects like PS and JJ have time in AAA. This would allow Paul to get used to a 5 day rotation and Jared to polish his command on the fastball when pumping close to triple digits…
It just seems like the Pirates are ok with depending on minor leaguers to hit their ceiling in year 1 to be a good baseball team and are ok with getting burned with that ideology.
Absolutely. The Russ Martin signing justified my buddy and I getting a full season plan because we thought they made enough FA signings and trades to be a playoff team. It would be nice to see a little more of that now since this team, at least in theory, should be close to competing for a wild card spot.
I've been trying to rack my brain for literally one single example of a rookie pitcher going wire to wire in their first callup, let alone competitively.
An excellent game for a lot of our guys until we let it get away giving up 4 runs in the 9th. Altoona will be the place to be in April and May, not only for the pitching, but for the strength of the defense beginning with Abrahan Gutierrez, C, Tsung-Che Cheng and Termarr Johnson as the MI, Jack Brannigan as the 3B/Util, Jase Bowen at 1B/CF, Tres Gonzalez OF, and Sammy Siani OF.
For TJ and Jack, this is an aggressive promotion, but both did well at A+ in the short time they were there. Brannigan in 38 games played well at SS, 2B, 3B, and hit for almost a .900 OPS in about 150 AB; TJ was over .800 OPS in 30 games and his performance at ST has been so off the charts, that he needs to be at AA.
With the skills that Brannigan has exhibited since being drafted in 2022, could we find some time for him in CF? I have advocated we trade for a young, highly rated prospect CF, but if we do not have success with that option, this kid is a ballplayer with VG foot speed looking for a place to play. Lots of time on the back fields of Pirate City to at least take a look?
I accept it's okay to lose games in spring training because it's spring training, lol. But from Pony League to the majors and even in pick up games if you really love the sport you are trying to win the game you are playing in. I feel that all those pitchers in camp Shelton could have brought any of them in to try and salvage the ninth. I understand the game and the standings mean nothing overall in the spring and I admittedly don't like Shelton but with all these kids in camp leaving the guy out there for batting practice is more bs from Shelton showing he doesn't ever have his teams back. He does the same thing during the regular season so I shouldn't be surprised.
I gotta like Toon Town this spring. I gotta warn ya though... I like to go to the first series in Altoona every year... last season was tough... It was near freezing much of the time and overcast so no sun to warm you. You hadda bundle up and even though we had chemical hand warmers in our pockets, socks and gloves, it was a challenge to watch the games. I had to think a Dominican player playing his first game in Altoona had to be thinking: what ... in ... the ... hell ...
But, honestly, Toon Town is the place to be this season for some great prospects and some lights out pitching.
If any of the the board are thinking of coming up for a game, please let me know and I'd be happy to host you and save you a hotel cost etc and "show" you the area the way a local can do.
_____________________
"First we will hear a waltz witten by Johann Stwouse. ... Wisten to the whispering whythm of the woodwinds as it wolls awound and awound... And it comes out here."
There would be years where Jones, Chandler, Solometo or even Harrington would be the Pirates number one pitching prospect. With the spotlight on Skenes, it might be good that the other four can just pitch. None of those four have disappointed us thing spring, while Harrington may be the quiet surprise of the group.
Really looking forward to seeing Harrington in person at some point. Anyone else think Altoona should be part of the Southern League?
Actually, as I write that, it reminds me of an ESPN column yesterday that had hypothetical division realignments that will follow expansion. We were in the the AL South!?! The weirdest part of that was it was "AL" despite 4 of the 7 existing teams being in the NL (Pirates, Braves, Reds, Marlins along with Rays, Guardians, Tigers, Nashville). Come to think of it, "South" is equally strange with the Pirates, Reds, Guardians, and Tigers as half the division). Otherwise, I like that division--only the Braves are truly high spenders, and we have at least two natural rivals. Just change the name to something like MLB Clemente.
One of my favorite parts of being at Pirate City was watching Harrington pitching to Peguero, Lamb and CSN. The advise was as long as Harrington can mix up his pitches well, the hitters are going to have a hard time.
The Pirates have been in the National League for 135 years or so. I know the distinction is practically gone these days, but it will still make me mad.
Yeah, I really don't want them in the "AL", but I do like the argument based on time zones and natural rivalries for re-grouping teams across the leagues, given that they've already "corrupted" things by interleague play and adding the DH (neither of which I mind). Just don't call our new division "AL" or "South". Of course the Reds and Braves used to be in the NL West, so I can live with South, just not AL.
Being a central Illinois Pirates fan, I like the travel distance to St. Louis, Chicago and Milwaukee to see them play. I guess that won't play heavily in MLB's decision. :)
Made it out to Sarasota yesterday for the game. A few observations. Nicky G's double down the LF line was one of the hardest hit balls of the day. He smoked it. It was nice to see Oneil get that first SB out of the way and as bad as Jack looked at the plate, that was a heck of a diving catch in left center. Just trying to find some positives outside of the obvious ones.
I think you're right. I looked at the scoreboard after the hit and it said the pitch was 86 mph. It didn't record the exit velocity. I liked how Nick gave one hard clap of his hands after cruising into 2nd as if he was telling himself he can hit the off-speed stuff.
We need to root for all of them. However, Triolo is a necessity until we see Ke playing 140+ games. I think he only played 124 last year with Triolo getting 30+ at 3B and we did not skip a beat. That kid is MONEY!
Of the other 3, possibly 2 could be traded at some time this year. My best to keep is Peguero for 3 reasons - he's our only other SS-capable IF, his age ( about 2 years younger than NG, at least one younger than Bae), and the Power from the Right side. With power from Hayes, Davis, and Peguero from the right and Cruz, Suwinski, and Tellez from the left and Reynolds/Endy as switch hitters, it sets up the lineup for average and power in the future.
If you really want to dream, how about this year's Evan Carter--starts the year in AA, joins a team that squeezes into the postseason, stars in the postseason.
I don't know that much about Carter but from what I learned last fall and what I've read about Johnson, they seem to share plus plus makeup.
If falter, Selby, and sad sack were cut tomorrow, I could care less. All the keepers performed well yesterday. So far this spring is the most encouraging I have seen in a decade. Keep healthy.
Falter is not a bad guy to have on a roster for games the starting pitcher has to come out early. He can give you the innings and save the bullpen. And half of the time, he can hold his own. The other half, ouch.
Dreaming that we sign Montgomery to a Bellinger-type deal, which would mean that one of the guys you name would likely be DFA'd.
Heard some interesting discussions yesterday about Skenes’ workload and debut this summer.
While many of us want him up as quickly as possible, it may make sense to hold him down & ease him into the pro routine to preserve some innings for the MLB club in the 2nd half of the year.
Based on the treatment of other top pitching prospects, i’d expect them to try to keep him under 150 IP this year. First 10 starts at AA, 3-4 innings each, ~35 IP. 5-10 starts at AAA, 5-6 innings each, ~45 IP. 10-15 starts in MLB with a “normal” workload, probably 6 innings each on average, ~70 IP.
Final guesstimate: In AA through May, AAA through July. Debuts with the Pirates in August, makes 12 starts in MLB, 4.05 ERA over 72 IP. Mixed results, but lots of Ks and *at least* one gem.
Personally I would have held Skenes back until mid-March. Shelton and Oscar are ramping him up in February. I would expect 5 AA starts, 5 AAA starts, hopefully on 5 or 6 days rest. Let him build up to 6 IP. Then as soon as Super 2 date passes, get him to the Pirates, assuming he has checked all the boxes and has comfort with his slider/or offspeed pitch.
another good point, seems to me like it’ll be a slow build up
Is there any research that supports building up innings is what is best for the pitchers arms? When the pitchers know they are throwing just an inning or two, they ramp it up like they are a closer. (That can't be good.) I know this sounds crazy, but if you really want to build up pitchers arm strengths, the limit should be on how fast they can throw or on how many strenuous pitches they can throw. (I know the hitters would like it.)
Well they could ask some successful pitchers who are still with us from the last century who didn't have access to any of these data points how they did it, lol. Tell Nutting it will save him a nickel and he'll buy those last century guys a cup of coffee for their advice.
good question & an interesting theory. i’d have to imagine teams are looking at those data points given all the information they have available to them.
To your point, innings pitched definitely doesn’t give the whole picture. 100, 20-pitch innings obviously does not equal 100, 10-pitch innings.
I heard Mike Marshall say something similar a few years back, but it is more the 40 or so years of coaching high school cross country and track. If I had a strict miles limit (similar to inning limit), runners would run too hard and there would be 10 times as many leg injuries. Sure we build up the miles, but the limit needs to be on how hard they practice and how often they run hard.
I think the billion dollar invention is to have a pitcher where a chip or chips on his arm that tells instantaneously feeds back to the staff the amount of strain it is causing on the arm.
I think you're speaking to the wisdom of our baseball elders. The minor leagues were exactly where you built up a kid's stamina through practices exactly like those you say. This recent showcasification of development does not leave room for nuance.
That’s a really good guesstimate and a good strategy. I would be really pissed if the Pirates frittered away contract control of Skenes in the 2030 season so he could stick with the team this April. Once he’s in the big leagues, you can’t control his pitch count irregardless of game situations, you can in Altoona. I would love to see him in June though.
Mitchell...
"irregardless"
____________________
"Oooooh! I'm DYIN' again!"
-Wabbit
Far and few between
Same exact
BTW, I saw the bearcats owned the Mounties in wrestling this year…has to be a first
Not aware. That said, last I saw Huntingdon's boys' soccer team they were very physically strong. There must be a move in the school to hit the weight room bc they were physically superior on the pitch. Maybe they're doing it in their athletics as a rule. But I hear the Mounties have a real tough girls' wrestling team! So watch it, buster!
😂
will be hard to hold out that long though, considering the rotation is about 2.5 pitchers deep
It would have been great to see the Pirates go out and sign one or two mid rotation guys in free agency to allow the pitching prospects like PS and JJ have time in AAA. This would allow Paul to get used to a 5 day rotation and Jared to polish his command on the fastball when pumping close to triple digits…
It just seems like the Pirates are ok with depending on minor leaguers to hit their ceiling in year 1 to be a good baseball team and are ok with getting burned with that ideology.
agree, and that strategy has never worked here. 13-15 was buoyed by shrewd FA & trade acquisitions.
Absolutely. The Russ Martin signing justified my buddy and I getting a full season plan because we thought they made enough FA signings and trades to be a playoff team. It would be nice to see a little more of that now since this team, at least in theory, should be close to competing for a wild card spot.
Oh, the Pirates will find a way to keep him down until mid June. You can count on that.
not sure that’s wrong, either! Cole pitched a year & a half in the minors. Strasburg made a handful of starts in the minors, too.
I've been trying to rack my brain for literally one single example of a rookie pitcher going wire to wire in their first callup, let alone competitively.
Can anyone think of one?
An excellent game for a lot of our guys until we let it get away giving up 4 runs in the 9th. Altoona will be the place to be in April and May, not only for the pitching, but for the strength of the defense beginning with Abrahan Gutierrez, C, Tsung-Che Cheng and Termarr Johnson as the MI, Jack Brannigan as the 3B/Util, Jase Bowen at 1B/CF, Tres Gonzalez OF, and Sammy Siani OF.
For TJ and Jack, this is an aggressive promotion, but both did well at A+ in the short time they were there. Brannigan in 38 games played well at SS, 2B, 3B, and hit for almost a .900 OPS in about 150 AB; TJ was over .800 OPS in 30 games and his performance at ST has been so off the charts, that he needs to be at AA.
With the skills that Brannigan has exhibited since being drafted in 2022, could we find some time for him in CF? I have advocated we trade for a young, highly rated prospect CF, but if we do not have success with that option, this kid is a ballplayer with VG foot speed looking for a place to play. Lots of time on the back fields of Pirate City to at least take a look?
I accept it's okay to lose games in spring training because it's spring training, lol. But from Pony League to the majors and even in pick up games if you really love the sport you are trying to win the game you are playing in. I feel that all those pitchers in camp Shelton could have brought any of them in to try and salvage the ninth. I understand the game and the standings mean nothing overall in the spring and I admittedly don't like Shelton but with all these kids in camp leaving the guy out there for batting practice is more bs from Shelton showing he doesn't ever have his teams back. He does the same thing during the regular season so I shouldn't be surprised.
I gotta like Toon Town this spring. I gotta warn ya though... I like to go to the first series in Altoona every year... last season was tough... It was near freezing much of the time and overcast so no sun to warm you. You hadda bundle up and even though we had chemical hand warmers in our pockets, socks and gloves, it was a challenge to watch the games. I had to think a Dominican player playing his first game in Altoona had to be thinking: what ... in ... the ... hell ...
But, honestly, Toon Town is the place to be this season for some great prospects and some lights out pitching.
If any of the the board are thinking of coming up for a game, please let me know and I'd be happy to host you and save you a hotel cost etc and "show" you the area the way a local can do.
_____________________
"First we will hear a waltz witten by Johann Stwouse. ... Wisten to the whispering whythm of the woodwinds as it wolls awound and awound... And it comes out here."
-Wabbit
There would be years where Jones, Chandler, Solometo or even Harrington would be the Pirates number one pitching prospect. With the spotlight on Skenes, it might be good that the other four can just pitch. None of those four have disappointed us thing spring, while Harrington may be the quiet surprise of the group.
Really looking forward to seeing Harrington in person at some point. Anyone else think Altoona should be part of the Southern League?
Actually, as I write that, it reminds me of an ESPN column yesterday that had hypothetical division realignments that will follow expansion. We were in the the AL South!?! The weirdest part of that was it was "AL" despite 4 of the 7 existing teams being in the NL (Pirates, Braves, Reds, Marlins along with Rays, Guardians, Tigers, Nashville). Come to think of it, "South" is equally strange with the Pirates, Reds, Guardians, and Tigers as half the division). Otherwise, I like that division--only the Braves are truly high spenders, and we have at least two natural rivals. Just change the name to something like MLB Clemente.
One of my favorite parts of being at Pirate City was watching Harrington pitching to Peguero, Lamb and CSN. The advise was as long as Harrington can mix up his pitches well, the hitters are going to have a hard time.
The Pirates have been in the National League for 135 years or so. I know the distinction is practically gone these days, but it will still make me mad.
Yeah, I really don't want them in the "AL", but I do like the argument based on time zones and natural rivalries for re-grouping teams across the leagues, given that they've already "corrupted" things by interleague play and adding the DH (neither of which I mind). Just don't call our new division "AL" or "South". Of course the Reds and Braves used to be in the NL West, so I can live with South, just not AL.
Being a central Illinois Pirates fan, I like the travel distance to St. Louis, Chicago and Milwaukee to see them play. I guess that won't play heavily in MLB's decision. :)
Made it out to Sarasota yesterday for the game. A few observations. Nicky G's double down the LF line was one of the hardest hit balls of the day. He smoked it. It was nice to see Oneil get that first SB out of the way and as bad as Jack looked at the plate, that was a heck of a diving catch in left center. Just trying to find some positives outside of the obvious ones.
I might be wrong, but I think his double was from an off-speed pitch.
I think you're right. I looked at the scoreboard after the hit and it said the pitch was 86 mph. It didn't record the exit velocity. I liked how Nick gave one hard clap of his hands after cruising into 2nd as if he was telling himself he can hit the off-speed stuff.
Really rooting for Gonzales (of course really rooting for Peguero, Bae, and Triolo too), so it's good to read about what his double looked like.
We need to root for all of them. However, Triolo is a necessity until we see Ke playing 140+ games. I think he only played 124 last year with Triolo getting 30+ at 3B and we did not skip a beat. That kid is MONEY!
Of the other 3, possibly 2 could be traded at some time this year. My best to keep is Peguero for 3 reasons - he's our only other SS-capable IF, his age ( about 2 years younger than NG, at least one younger than Bae), and the Power from the Right side. With power from Hayes, Davis, and Peguero from the right and Cruz, Suwinski, and Tellez from the left and Reynolds/Endy as switch hitters, it sets up the lineup for average and power in the future.
I mean 102 from skenes and a 3 run bomb by Davis catching skenes, hit off an ace…
Yes sir ! May I please have another.
Hoping that TJ has a year comparable to Churio and Holliday and makes his way up to Pittsburgh by year’s end.
If you really want to dream, how about this year's Evan Carter--starts the year in AA, joins a team that squeezes into the postseason, stars in the postseason.
I don't know that much about Carter but from what I learned last fall and what I've read about Johnson, they seem to share plus plus makeup.
Also both rarely swing at pitches out of the zone.