Surprised Bidois wasn't ranked higher on his mustache alone. We have 2 in the top 10 on Mustache Aficionado. If Bubba works on his we could have 3 before mid-season. Skenes and Bidois are leading the way with their lip blankets.
Maybe we can take a page out of Charlie Finley's book and pay each player $300 to grow a mustache. Then again, it might take a little more in 2024 than it did in 1972.
signing Chapman has got me thinking about approaching post January free agency similar to how everyone says we should be approaching the draft strategy: ie picking the best player on the board instead of filling a position
with that said, wouldnt it be fun to sign Soler to play right field?
There's certainly value to this approach. We still need a competent starter (at least one), but pivoting to building what might be the best pen in the division because there was that opportunity is a smart move. And it will have a residual effect on the rotation as Ortiz or Priester might be okay if they're expected to go 5 instead of 6 innings, or two times through an order instead of ever facing a guy a third time. Depth in the pen allows for that.
Several interesting calls here beyond Bidois. Harrington, Cheng and Brannigan seem high at 6/7/12, although that may have more to do with the system not being very good. Gorski at 15 is curious for a AAA player who's been passed over twice in R5. Alika Williams (22) is awfully high for a Mario Mendoza clone. Brazoban at 24 seems premature, especially with Yordany DLS not even on the list. Carlson Reed is interesting, but he's a college draftee who has yet to pitch above R ball. To me, college guys need to be viewed with a ton of skepticism until they do something in AA.
Tony Solometo and Zander Meuth are much too far apart. Take the names off the jerseys and I find it exceptionally hard to believe the former would be ahead of the latter.
I recall when Glasnow started developing into a top prospect feeling like any HS pitching prospect we drafted was a smart pick. Meuth could be that guy for this FO, though I guess you could say that Kennedy or Kellington could be that guy. I don't count Solo or Bubba because many would have drafted them at the spots they were drafted.
That's the main piece. There's a lot to be said about a guy that's made it to Double-A, and has seen some form of success in Double-A. I really like Mueth, especially after the small snippet of instructional game I saw. I really like him. But the amount of guys that I/we/whomever has liked and then get stuck in A ball, let alone make it to Double-A AND have success, has been a very very very small list for this organization. For a moment I thought, "Well, once they get to High A, we should have a good idea what/who they are". But as time has passed, Greensboro has really warped perception, mostly with hitters. I'll say, prep arms does seem to have building support behind it as being an area they're succeeding in, especially with a kid they like and draft early (ie: Jones, Bubba, Solo).
Because some of the SS's will move to 2B due to range or being blocked (e.g., Peguero for us), I'd be curious to see a combined ranking of middle infielders. I guess you can do that by taking a subset of the top 100 and when I take a quick look at Fangraphs' Board, for example, it appears that Johnson would rank around 5th or 6th in a combined ranking.
Well, Tim Williams still writes the Pirates Organizational Report for BA, so he may also have a hand in rating the prospects.
Peguero should start the year at 2B, but I hope the Pirates keep him playing SS for at least 20 to 30 games a year. I think they may want to use Oneil Cruz more at DH this year than they normally would have done so before his ankle injury.
I read Detroits prospect release on FG this week. A lot of fans there engaging in what-ifs with Jobe in the 2021 draft and Clark in 2023. After a shaky start, Jobe looks to have righted himself, so that doesn’t necessarily look too egregious. But Clark? I never saw how he was grouped with the big college three and Jenkins. He looked like Mickey Moniak; not enough impact.
I'm sticking with Skenes by the same reasoning that led me to want him over Langford and Crews. If anything, the price of pitching this offseason only reinforces that for me.
Also, my answer was tailored to our needs, as you suggest. A TOR starter or two is what is holding us back right now, and Skenes gives us the best shot at having one in '25 and beyond.
Idk. Not sure if I'm saying this right or backwards, but I think you can fake it with an average rotation more than you can an average offense.
Cleveland puts out a stud rotation rather consistently, but they don't get anywhere cause they can't score. Rangers and Diamondbacks this past year, Phillies the year before, catapulted themselves with their offenses. The Rangers "ace" was Nathan Eovaldi. Then they had Gray, Heaney, Dunning, and added Montgomery at deadline pushing Perez to bullpen. Diamondbacks had a legitimate ace in Gallen, a solid 2 in Kelly, but then were otherwise filtering through pitchers the entire season. The Rays, as always, are a bit of an enigma, but I'd say losing Franco was more of a detriment to their chances than when they lost McClanahan.
Just as with some of the discussions we were having post-signing Chapman, if you can get 5-6 innings with no more than 3 runs (4.50 - 5.40 ERA), you trust in your chances with a strong offense. When you have no offense, it doesn't matter if your ace is throwing 7-8 innings giving up 1-2 runs, cause your offense is getting guys on base, but can't collect that big hit.
Which, didn't we have a series of games this past year, or maybe year prior with a similar situation? Where the starters had like 7-8 straight "quality starts" or better, but they kept still losing cause they couldn't score?
We didn’t have anything resembling a killer rotation in either ‘71 or ‘79. Neither one went off a cliff after 2 but OTOH they were nowhere near 71 orioles with four 20 game winners (who Bucs beat) or ‘19 Astros with Cole, Verlander and Greinke ( who also lost).
I believe the average starting pitcher went less than 5 innings last year. (I am not sure if this counts your opener as a starter). Either way your bullpen pitches almost as much as your rotation. If the Pirates could get an average rotation to go along with a good bullen...... that is almost equal to a team with a good rotation and an average bullpen. (I'm no sure if I said that right. :) )
I just feel like there are more paths to getting a star position player, probably because we've had more success (though not enough yet) finding position player talent through IFAs. Shim might start changing my opinion, as would the success of guys like Solo, Chandler, Harrington, Meuth that we got outside of the first round.
Right. I’d add Polanco, but that’s fleeting because the injuries set in and he was an average regular at best for a few seasons. Marte was a plus regular for years...still might be.
Their international work has been atrocious for decades now. Inexcusable. Don’t have the cajones to sign big ticket guys there for some unknown reason.
Problem I had/have with Skenes is the injury risk. Realistically we have him for 4.5 years. He blows his elbow his out, we have him for 2.5 years. Added to that, for me, I’m less skeptical of their ability to find pitching than hitting. Very down on their ability to find impact bats.
Unless Skenes starts year on MLB roster, which is a 0.0% chance, he will be under team control for 7 years. And if he’s any good, they won’t trade him before 5.5 years.
If he has to go under knife, he’ll lose 1-1.5 years, not 2 years.
Let me further explain: If he’s as good as I suspect, they will trade him with two years of control left for two reasons: 1.) he will be way too expensive. 2.) you’ll get more than if you trade him with 1 year of control left. You also don’t get a full year for the first years because of super 2, hence the .5.
And again: I get they usually come back at about the 1.5 year mark, but they have to ramp back up and teams are usually cautious. Walker Buehler pitched 65 innings over the 2 years he was injured/recovering. John Means pitched 31. I’m guessing Brubaker will be well under 100. And the outings are shorter. So essentially you’re losing two full years.
You know... you can actually keep star players through all of their arbitration years... not sign them to an extension... give them a qualifying offer and then receive a high draft pick when they reject that offer. This way... you get compensation and you get to keep them for a full 7 years. As Pirate fans, we would not know this, however, since the Pirates never use this obvious tactic to maximize value.
I was referring to what the Pirates will do, rather than what they should do.
In terms of what they should do with Skenes, obviously that’s years away. I think that’s dependent on the return offered and other factors, like where you are in your competitive window. If the return isn’t to our liking, and the competitive window is still decently open, I’m open to the idea of keeping him.
Don’t discount the salary considerations here either. If he reaches his ceiling you’re talking about record arbitration awards. I don’t see us paying that under any scenario, especially in light of forfeiting the prospect return as well.
In the words of Paul Dolan: “enjoy him while you can.”
This depends on when (or if) it hits him, but it’s unlikely he’ll (or anyone) will miss two full seasons with TJ.
Agree on their issue with bats and the shaky development. It’s a good thing they showed good development on the pitching side with Ro, Q, and Ortiz. Wait a second...
In effect it’s two full seasons when you look at the time needed to ramp back up. Look at Means the past two years: 31 IP over 2 seasons.
I didn’t mean to suggest that the pitching side is A ok. It’s not. But they do have a history of cobbling together passable rotations and finding undervalued guys in FA. Their approach to position players makes me skeptical of similar success on that side of the ball.
The Gold Standard, and the Pirates have been very imaginative and adept at securing the amount of pitching we have. How we put that resource to work could make the Pirates competitive now and for years into the future.
2021 redraft.. do you take Lawlar/Mayer or do you stick with Davis + Solo, Chandler, White? How many of those overslot guys could we have still gotten with one of the other 2?
After review, Mayer & Lawlar got $6.6mil & $6.7mil to sign, respectively, versus Davis’ $6.5mil bonus. Both certainly would’ve asked for more if picked #1 overall vs #4/6, but I think we could’ve got a deal done & still gotten 2/3 of Solo, Chandler, White.
Brandon Bidois is the mystery man, but hits triple digits with his FB. 6 Saves, 42K's in 22 IP at Bradenton. Evidently he was signed by the Pirates out of Australia in 2019 (?), and missed all of 2022 with a non-throwing shoulder injury. The numbers are good and the short video of him is impressive, but how excited can we get about a 22 year old at A ball. Played on the Aussie U-18 team before signing with the Pirates.
Bidois is really just starting his pro career, so his age shouldn't be an issue. He missed the plague year, then got hurt six innings into 2021 and had TJ, which wiped out 2022. Considering all that, he was impressive in 2023. Command is still in the early stages, but the stuff is there. I'm hoping he has a good first half at GBO and reaches AA.
Holliday definitely looks like a super stud. He’s got talent galore and pedigree. Every time I see that name I can’t help but think of the HR is old man hit off Ground Chuck in game 4 of NLDS in 2013. Only bad pitch Morton made, but it was enough to give him the L.
He really was. Game 5, after freebasing wings and cheap beer at Cain’s with a buddy, I returned back to my duplex fairly downtrodden halfway through the game.
Pedro came to the plate with two on and two out in the seventh, down 3-0. I remember standing in my living room...just hoping he’d take Wainwright downtown. He didn’t; he singled to make it 3-1. I think it may have been a slow rolled that went off the first base bag or something odd. But Wainwright got out if it, the Cards padded their lead, and that was that.
Haha, we went to Cain’s for the first WC game in 2013. Went to the actual WC game in 2014, and tried to recapture the mojo with a revisit to Cain’s in 2015. Alas, the magic of wings and beer eluded us.
Maybe more than Glasnow even, Morton captures the biggest issue the old FO had and the new FO needs to fix--we had the ability to identify pitching talent but it took another team to fully develop that talent.
One of the reasons I really like Skenes, not that he won't take advice from the coaching staff, but he will always be looking to improve his game on his own as well.
Bob and Ben should probably just extend Skenes now, 8 years for $85 with an option for year 9 at $25 million or a $5 million buyout.
9 for $110 million or 8 for $90 million.
Surprised Bidois wasn't ranked higher on his mustache alone. We have 2 in the top 10 on Mustache Aficionado. If Bubba works on his we could have 3 before mid-season. Skenes and Bidois are leading the way with their lip blankets.
Maybe we can take a page out of Charlie Finley's book and pay each player $300 to grow a mustache. Then again, it might take a little more in 2024 than it did in 1972.
We can bring in Tom Selick to coach them on proper maintenance and trimming. He likes baseball.
Thats why we have to add in tommy tanks' mullet, the combo could would be unbeatable. Though bubba's mullet was coming along well last i saw
Redneck Otani!
Makes me think of the dude from Super Troopers. "Who wants a mustache ride?"
signing Chapman has got me thinking about approaching post January free agency similar to how everyone says we should be approaching the draft strategy: ie picking the best player on the board instead of filling a position
with that said, wouldnt it be fun to sign Soler to play right field?
There's certainly value to this approach. We still need a competent starter (at least one), but pivoting to building what might be the best pen in the division because there was that opportunity is a smart move. And it will have a residual effect on the rotation as Ortiz or Priester might be okay if they're expected to go 5 instead of 6 innings, or two times through an order instead of ever facing a guy a third time. Depth in the pen allows for that.
Several interesting calls here beyond Bidois. Harrington, Cheng and Brannigan seem high at 6/7/12, although that may have more to do with the system not being very good. Gorski at 15 is curious for a AAA player who's been passed over twice in R5. Alika Williams (22) is awfully high for a Mario Mendoza clone. Brazoban at 24 seems premature, especially with Yordany DLS not even on the list. Carlson Reed is interesting, but he's a college draftee who has yet to pitch above R ball. To me, college guys need to be viewed with a ton of skepticism until they do something in AA.
I haven't said "this f'n guy?" more on a Pirate prospect list since like 2008. I just don't really have any others in mind who are more worthy. Ouch.
Maybe there was a glitch, like, they did a top 50 but 11-30 got deleted somehow.
Tony Solometo and Zander Meuth are much too far apart. Take the names off the jerseys and I find it exceptionally hard to believe the former would be ahead of the latter.
I recall when Glasnow started developing into a top prospect feeling like any HS pitching prospect we drafted was a smart pick. Meuth could be that guy for this FO, though I guess you could say that Kennedy or Kellington could be that guy. I don't count Solo or Bubba because many would have drafted them at the spots they were drafted.
Track record of success? Thats all i got
That's the main piece. There's a lot to be said about a guy that's made it to Double-A, and has seen some form of success in Double-A. I really like Mueth, especially after the small snippet of instructional game I saw. I really like him. But the amount of guys that I/we/whomever has liked and then get stuck in A ball, let alone make it to Double-A AND have success, has been a very very very small list for this organization. For a moment I thought, "Well, once they get to High A, we should have a good idea what/who they are". But as time has passed, Greensboro has really warped perception, mostly with hitters. I'll say, prep arms does seem to have building support behind it as being an area they're succeeding in, especially with a kid they like and draft early (ie: Jones, Bubba, Solo).
worth something, no doubt!
Because some of the SS's will move to 2B due to range or being blocked (e.g., Peguero for us), I'd be curious to see a combined ranking of middle infielders. I guess you can do that by taking a subset of the top 100 and when I take a quick look at Fangraphs' Board, for example, it appears that Johnson would rank around 5th or 6th in a combined ranking.
Also, who compiled the BA list? Do they say?
Well, Tim Williams still writes the Pirates Organizational Report for BA, so he may also have a hand in rating the prospects.
Peguero should start the year at 2B, but I hope the Pirates keep him playing SS for at least 20 to 30 games a year. I think they may want to use Oneil Cruz more at DH this year than they normally would have done so before his ankle injury.
Holliday for Skenes straight up?
Skenes is awesome, but pretty sure it would take 1.5 to 2 Skens for Holliday.
Skenes, Frontline pitching is just so hard to come by. It's a shame we can't have both lol.
No chance Skenes would be enough.
Not this year, but next year the opposite might be true ;)
What I was hoping at least.
Probably not. But I may change my mind tomorrow!
I read Detroits prospect release on FG this week. A lot of fans there engaging in what-ifs with Jobe in the 2021 draft and Clark in 2023. After a shaky start, Jobe looks to have righted himself, so that doesn’t necessarily look too egregious. But Clark? I never saw how he was grouped with the big college three and Jenkins. He looked like Mickey Moniak; not enough impact.
I'm sticking with Skenes by the same reasoning that led me to want him over Langford and Crews. If anything, the price of pitching this offseason only reinforces that for me.
When you're having to fill out a rotation with mid-level guys, yes. But star bats and star pitchers are on a same paying field, relatively.
Also, my answer was tailored to our needs, as you suggest. A TOR starter or two is what is holding us back right now, and Skenes gives us the best shot at having one in '25 and beyond.
Idk. Not sure if I'm saying this right or backwards, but I think you can fake it with an average rotation more than you can an average offense.
Cleveland puts out a stud rotation rather consistently, but they don't get anywhere cause they can't score. Rangers and Diamondbacks this past year, Phillies the year before, catapulted themselves with their offenses. The Rangers "ace" was Nathan Eovaldi. Then they had Gray, Heaney, Dunning, and added Montgomery at deadline pushing Perez to bullpen. Diamondbacks had a legitimate ace in Gallen, a solid 2 in Kelly, but then were otherwise filtering through pitchers the entire season. The Rays, as always, are a bit of an enigma, but I'd say losing Franco was more of a detriment to their chances than when they lost McClanahan.
Just as with some of the discussions we were having post-signing Chapman, if you can get 5-6 innings with no more than 3 runs (4.50 - 5.40 ERA), you trust in your chances with a strong offense. When you have no offense, it doesn't matter if your ace is throwing 7-8 innings giving up 1-2 runs, cause your offense is getting guys on base, but can't collect that big hit.
Which, didn't we have a series of games this past year, or maybe year prior with a similar situation? Where the starters had like 7-8 straight "quality starts" or better, but they kept still losing cause they couldn't score?
We didn’t have anything resembling a killer rotation in either ‘71 or ‘79. Neither one went off a cliff after 2 but OTOH they were nowhere near 71 orioles with four 20 game winners (who Bucs beat) or ‘19 Astros with Cole, Verlander and Greinke ( who also lost).
I know different eras.
I believe the average starting pitcher went less than 5 innings last year. (I am not sure if this counts your opener as a starter). Either way your bullpen pitches almost as much as your rotation. If the Pirates could get an average rotation to go along with a good bullen...... that is almost equal to a team with a good rotation and an average bullpen. (I'm no sure if I said that right. :) )
There are a lot of things holding them back. But you’re right, a TOR arm is one of them!
I just feel like there are more paths to getting a star position player, probably because we've had more success (though not enough yet) finding position player talent through IFAs. Shim might start changing my opinion, as would the success of guys like Solo, Chandler, Harrington, Meuth that we got outside of the first round.
We’ve had some success finding position player talent through IFAs? Who?
Starling Marte was only difference maker in last 15 years.
Right. I’d add Polanco, but that’s fleeting because the injuries set in and he was an average regular at best for a few seasons. Marte was a plus regular for years...still might be.
Their international work has been atrocious for decades now. Inexcusable. Don’t have the cajones to sign big ticket guys there for some unknown reason.
Problem I had/have with Skenes is the injury risk. Realistically we have him for 4.5 years. He blows his elbow his out, we have him for 2.5 years. Added to that, for me, I’m less skeptical of their ability to find pitching than hitting. Very down on their ability to find impact bats.
That’s bad math…twice.
Unless Skenes starts year on MLB roster, which is a 0.0% chance, he will be under team control for 7 years. And if he’s any good, they won’t trade him before 5.5 years.
If he has to go under knife, he’ll lose 1-1.5 years, not 2 years.
Let me further explain: If he’s as good as I suspect, they will trade him with two years of control left for two reasons: 1.) he will be way too expensive. 2.) you’ll get more than if you trade him with 1 year of control left. You also don’t get a full year for the first years because of super 2, hence the .5.
And again: I get they usually come back at about the 1.5 year mark, but they have to ramp back up and teams are usually cautious. Walker Buehler pitched 65 innings over the 2 years he was injured/recovering. John Means pitched 31. I’m guessing Brubaker will be well under 100. And the outings are shorter. So essentially you’re losing two full years.
You know... you can actually keep star players through all of their arbitration years... not sign them to an extension... give them a qualifying offer and then receive a high draft pick when they reject that offer. This way... you get compensation and you get to keep them for a full 7 years. As Pirate fans, we would not know this, however, since the Pirates never use this obvious tactic to maximize value.
I was referring to what the Pirates will do, rather than what they should do.
In terms of what they should do with Skenes, obviously that’s years away. I think that’s dependent on the return offered and other factors, like where you are in your competitive window. If the return isn’t to our liking, and the competitive window is still decently open, I’m open to the idea of keeping him.
Don’t discount the salary considerations here either. If he reaches his ceiling you’re talking about record arbitration awards. I don’t see us paying that under any scenario, especially in light of forfeiting the prospect return as well.
In the words of Paul Dolan: “enjoy him while you can.”
This depends on when (or if) it hits him, but it’s unlikely he’ll (or anyone) will miss two full seasons with TJ.
Agree on their issue with bats and the shaky development. It’s a good thing they showed good development on the pitching side with Ro, Q, and Ortiz. Wait a second...
In effect it’s two full seasons when you look at the time needed to ramp back up. Look at Means the past two years: 31 IP over 2 seasons.
I didn’t mean to suggest that the pitching side is A ok. It’s not. But they do have a history of cobbling together passable rotations and finding undervalued guys in FA. Their approach to position players makes me skeptical of similar success on that side of the ball.
The Gold Standard, and the Pirates have been very imaginative and adept at securing the amount of pitching we have. How we put that resource to work could make the Pirates competitive now and for years into the future.
2021 redraft.. do you take Lawlar/Mayer or do you stick with Davis + Solo, Chandler, White? How many of those overslot guys could we have still gotten with one of the other 2?
Hank will be blasting 30 homeruns this year
White will be our #1 prospect by the end of the year
I can see Chandler, White, and Solo all being top 5 Pirates prospects, and top 100 prospects for MLB by this time next year.
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After review, Mayer & Lawlar got $6.6mil & $6.7mil to sign, respectively, versus Davis’ $6.5mil bonus. Both certainly would’ve asked for more if picked #1 overall vs #4/6, but I think we could’ve got a deal done & still gotten 2/3 of Solo, Chandler, White.
Yep, in a heartbeat.
Yep, the question is Hank and the three over signs or Mayer or Lawlar and two of them. I’d prolly prefer Lawlar/Bubba/White.
Brandon Bidois is the mystery man, but hits triple digits with his FB. 6 Saves, 42K's in 22 IP at Bradenton. Evidently he was signed by the Pirates out of Australia in 2019 (?), and missed all of 2022 with a non-throwing shoulder injury. The numbers are good and the short video of him is impressive, but how excited can we get about a 22 year old at A ball. Played on the Aussie U-18 team before signing with the Pirates.
Bidois is really just starting his pro career, so his age shouldn't be an issue. He missed the plague year, then got hurt six innings into 2021 and had TJ, which wiped out 2022. Considering all that, he was impressive in 2023. Command is still in the early stages, but the stuff is there. I'm hoping he has a good first half at GBO and reaches AA.
Holliday definitely looks like a super stud. He’s got talent galore and pedigree. Every time I see that name I can’t help but think of the HR is old man hit off Ground Chuck in game 4 of NLDS in 2013. Only bad pitch Morton made, but it was enough to give him the L.
Aww, what could have been. 😢
Man what a game! Pedro was a force that series.
He really was. Game 5, after freebasing wings and cheap beer at Cain’s with a buddy, I returned back to my duplex fairly downtrodden halfway through the game.
Pedro came to the plate with two on and two out in the seventh, down 3-0. I remember standing in my living room...just hoping he’d take Wainwright downtown. He didn’t; he singled to make it 3-1. I think it may have been a slow rolled that went off the first base bag or something odd. But Wainwright got out if it, the Cards padded their lead, and that was that.
Freebasing wings and cheap beer. That little gem made my day.
Haha, we went to Cain’s for the first WC game in 2013. Went to the actual WC game in 2014, and tried to recapture the mojo with a revisit to Cain’s in 2015. Alas, the magic of wings and beer eluded us.
Also exactly what powered Pedro tbh
And, who'd of thunk it in 2013 that 10+ years later Ground Chuck would be making $20 mil per year as a 40 year old SP!
Maybe more than Glasnow even, Morton captures the biggest issue the old FO had and the new FO needs to fix--we had the ability to identify pitching talent but it took another team to fully develop that talent.
One of the reasons I really like Skenes, not that he won't take advice from the coaching staff, but he will always be looking to improve his game on his own as well.
Whose on first ...
What’s on second?
I don't know is in charge.
Whose who