The lack of strike out from the starting pitcher is a little unsettling, I don’t think we have a bad fielding team, but is not a great one. Contreras getting two WHIFFS is an indication to me at least that he’s not deserving of a starting spot, long relief/mop up role is all I see right now out of him. Gonzales is in the same boat. BC needs to make a move for someone like Clevinger ASAP. Right now you have to squint hard to see 4 deserving starters; Keller, Perez, maybe Ortiz and maybe Priester. Jones? Why not?
Mackey has been on the Contreras bandwagon but I'm not seeing it--as you say, he just seems so hittable. In fairness to Mackey, his repeated endorsement of Contreras for the rotation was before yesterday's game.
I remember a couple years ago Quintana was signed as a bounce back candidate, and had an awful ST. Lots of posters were saying he needed to be moved to the bullpen, or cut before season started. And then when the season started, he seemingly flipped a switch and produced far better results than anyone could’ve possibly predicted.
The moral of the story, ST results for veteran pitchers are meaningless.
Hope you are right, and I guess your statement only applies to Gonzales since he’s the only veteran I have concern about. Contreras, Ortiz etc. don’t qualify as veterans in my book.
Gilberto Celestino, 25, continues to impress - 10-21, 1 HR, 7 RBI, 2BB/5K; 476/522/619/1.141 OPS, and looks to be the RH hitting option in CF for the Pirates, barring any last minute trades. Of course, that may not jive with the Pirates trying to convert Connor Joe to becoming a CF. It's not a tough position to play - anybody can do it!
Interesting that Celestino and Olivares both played in the Braves game and Olivares was the CF, and Celestino was in LF. Olivares had 2 hits in 4 AB yesterday and is 4-22, 1 Triple, 2 RBI, 1BB/5K and a slash of 182/217/273/490 OPS in ST. He had some very good numbers for KC last year in 354 AB and a slash of .263/317/452/769 OPS, so he could be just going through some "new surroundings" shock.
I don't know if it should be to start the season, but I'm hoping Celestino gets a real look at some point (though not due to injury, so I'm being careful about what I hope for ;)). I've envied teams with a plus defender in CF. Jack seems fine, but if you upgrade his defense in CF, then he also upgrades the defense in RF. Anyway, I'm intrigued but not yet seeing how Celestino makes the team over one of Joe, Olivares, and Palacios. Instead, I'm satisfied with him making a good first impression and then sustaining that performance in AAA, being ready when the opportunity arises.
Celestino has been hot but his minor league track record hasn't been good. I think he get sent down to be AAA depth. There will be a big roster crunch and they won't be able to keep all these bench/platoon pieces. Olivares and Joe should definitely be kept over Celestino. I'm still holding out hope that They sign Taylor to give them a true CF.
I think Celestino must have been injured last year - only 55 games at AAA. In 2022 he was up for 122 games for the Twins - probably caused by an injury to Buxton. Olivares has played 29 innings in CF over the past 3 years, and Joe ZERO innings in CF. Olivares will stay as the RH hitting RF; Joe will stay as the 1B/OF/DH. If we want a true defensive CF it will have to be Celestino, or we make a trade.
Having a true CF would be great. I keep thinking another move for a cf and a solid starting pitcher should be the gameplan for the front office. Otherwise signing Chapman for $10 mill is kind of useless for a team that would need a lot of things to go right to win 81+ games. There were other solid relief pitchers that went for way less money. They made a splash move but haven't followed it up.
Without an additional move or some extreme luck, signing Chapman looks only like an opportunity to do what the Royals did last year. And we're not going to hit like they did, and in year five of this FO should be past that point anyway.
I think it is more 22 ABs vs. 354 ABs for Olivares. I am sure in his 354 ABs he had several 4-22 stretches but also likely some 10-21 stretches. Spring training is important to see how players have changed / progressed over the winter and in some cases there may be real improvements. However, we are still talking a very small sample size.
Celestino was considered a good hit tool, decent patience, legit CF as a prospect. He was rushed by the Twins. He's interesting because he's still young enough to reach his prospect profile. A guy who can hit .260/.330/.370 and play CF is useful. Good pick up.
I'm not saying spring training stats are meaningless, but they can be very very skewed. Especially for the players that usually play the last 3 or 4 innings of the game. I think the Pirates traded for Olivares for a reason. I think Celestino would benefit from some continued success in spring training and in triple A for at least a month.
CAREER MLB STATS
Celestino .222 ba, 4 hr 4 sb (379 mlb at bats) age 25
Oilvares .261 ba 24 hr 15 sb (712 mlb at bats) age 28
As long as they're healthy, Olivares and Palacios should open the season with the Pirates after what they did last year. But big questions remain for both, and it's nice to know that Celestino will be an option in AAA (and McKinney is competent too).
Agree 100%. I think for Triolo vs. Peggy vs. Nicky they have some meaning. But even in those cases (and in cases in all MLB camps), the coaches and decision makers are looking well past the stat lines. Last year counts, drills count (can they smoothly turn the DP), off season changes count, etc. That is why I love the in person reports several posters have provided as they have shared things beyond just the box score. I think Olivares was on the opening day roster from day one pending odd circumstances (not batting avg). Same with Conner Joe (several years of average part time starter/bench bat MLB production). That's not a full year plan as they have to produce.
Also if we are looking for that final outfield spot, I don't want to dismiss Billy McKinney or Canaan Smith-Njigba yet. McKinney is hitting .375 and leads the team in walks. CSN has 2 homers in 18 at bats and 4 walks with a more patient approach at the plate than a year ago.
(My post above I say how skewed spring training stats can be, than just show spring training stats on McKinney and CSN. They are impossible for me not to look at. :) )
I am interested in CSN, but he does have an option remaining. His numbers at MLB were not good, and he was sent back to AAA where he completed an excellent year. However, the only opening on the roster would be for a CF, preferably one who bats RH to alternate with the LH hitting Suwinski.
Gilberto Celestino bats RH, is having an excellent ST, and has played 800 innings in CF in MLB. A Trade? That's possible, but I think BC is content with the present status of the Pirates. Something could happen this week, but unless a trade is made, Celestino is the best option.
I don't want to overreact to CSN's two HRs, but they were very impressive and have impacted how I view a CSN AB--instead of hoping for a hard-hit grounder finding a hole, I'm looking for a big fly. If he can keep getting to that power...
He is taking a lot of pitches this year. He did hit .417 the last month at Indy last year which has to count for something. I am not in any rush to start him in the majors, but by no means do I want to count him out of being a Pirate contributor in 2024.
I don't think anyone thinks they should bring him north to start the season, but if he plays well in AAA to start the year after the way he played there to end last year, then he'll earn another look.
But that is a good example. When you are definitely on the outside looking in for an opening day roster spot (McKinney and CSN clearly in that boat) then you need to have some splash to your numbers to have any chance. Plus injuries happen so all they can do is try to impress.
Heard some jagoff saying jake lamb needs to make the team at 1B or he will stop following them, I had no words
The lack of strike out from the starting pitcher is a little unsettling, I don’t think we have a bad fielding team, but is not a great one. Contreras getting two WHIFFS is an indication to me at least that he’s not deserving of a starting spot, long relief/mop up role is all I see right now out of him. Gonzales is in the same boat. BC needs to make a move for someone like Clevinger ASAP. Right now you have to squint hard to see 4 deserving starters; Keller, Perez, maybe Ortiz and maybe Priester. Jones? Why not?
Mackey has been on the Contreras bandwagon but I'm not seeing it--as you say, he just seems so hittable. In fairness to Mackey, his repeated endorsement of Contreras for the rotation was before yesterday's game.
I remember a couple years ago Quintana was signed as a bounce back candidate, and had an awful ST. Lots of posters were saying he needed to be moved to the bullpen, or cut before season started. And then when the season started, he seemingly flipped a switch and produced far better results than anyone could’ve possibly predicted.
The moral of the story, ST results for veteran pitchers are meaningless.
Hope you are right, and I guess your statement only applies to Gonzales since he’s the only veteran I have concern about. Contreras, Ortiz etc. don’t qualify as veterans in my book.
Gilberto Celestino, 25, continues to impress - 10-21, 1 HR, 7 RBI, 2BB/5K; 476/522/619/1.141 OPS, and looks to be the RH hitting option in CF for the Pirates, barring any last minute trades. Of course, that may not jive with the Pirates trying to convert Connor Joe to becoming a CF. It's not a tough position to play - anybody can do it!
Interesting that Celestino and Olivares both played in the Braves game and Olivares was the CF, and Celestino was in LF. Olivares had 2 hits in 4 AB yesterday and is 4-22, 1 Triple, 2 RBI, 1BB/5K and a slash of 182/217/273/490 OPS in ST. He had some very good numbers for KC last year in 354 AB and a slash of .263/317/452/769 OPS, so he could be just going through some "new surroundings" shock.
I don't know if it should be to start the season, but I'm hoping Celestino gets a real look at some point (though not due to injury, so I'm being careful about what I hope for ;)). I've envied teams with a plus defender in CF. Jack seems fine, but if you upgrade his defense in CF, then he also upgrades the defense in RF. Anyway, I'm intrigued but not yet seeing how Celestino makes the team over one of Joe, Olivares, and Palacios. Instead, I'm satisfied with him making a good first impression and then sustaining that performance in AAA, being ready when the opportunity arises.
We need an article with the title: Spring Training Stats are meaningless.
I say this every late April, then forget during spring straining. I just can't help it. :)
Celestino has been hot but his minor league track record hasn't been good. I think he get sent down to be AAA depth. There will be a big roster crunch and they won't be able to keep all these bench/platoon pieces. Olivares and Joe should definitely be kept over Celestino. I'm still holding out hope that They sign Taylor to give them a true CF.
He's been above average on offense in AAA and is known as a plus defender--how is that a bad track record?
I think Celestino must have been injured last year - only 55 games at AAA. In 2022 he was up for 122 games for the Twins - probably caused by an injury to Buxton. Olivares has played 29 innings in CF over the past 3 years, and Joe ZERO innings in CF. Olivares will stay as the RH hitting RF; Joe will stay as the 1B/OF/DH. If we want a true defensive CF it will have to be Celestino, or we make a trade.
He had a torn thumb ligament. Had surgery in March, out until June. For an injury like that, his stats after returning probably don’t mean much.
Having a true CF would be great. I keep thinking another move for a cf and a solid starting pitcher should be the gameplan for the front office. Otherwise signing Chapman for $10 mill is kind of useless for a team that would need a lot of things to go right to win 81+ games. There were other solid relief pitchers that went for way less money. They made a splash move but haven't followed it up.
Without an additional move or some extreme luck, signing Chapman looks only like an opportunity to do what the Royals did last year. And we're not going to hit like they did, and in year five of this FO should be past that point anyway.
I think it is more 22 ABs vs. 354 ABs for Olivares. I am sure in his 354 ABs he had several 4-22 stretches but also likely some 10-21 stretches. Spring training is important to see how players have changed / progressed over the winter and in some cases there may be real improvements. However, we are still talking a very small sample size.
Celestino was considered a good hit tool, decent patience, legit CF as a prospect. He was rushed by the Twins. He's interesting because he's still young enough to reach his prospect profile. A guy who can hit .260/.330/.370 and play CF is useful. Good pick up.
I agree, that's why I posted his stats from his 350+ AB with KC last year. That sells!
I'm not saying spring training stats are meaningless, but they can be very very skewed. Especially for the players that usually play the last 3 or 4 innings of the game. I think the Pirates traded for Olivares for a reason. I think Celestino would benefit from some continued success in spring training and in triple A for at least a month.
CAREER MLB STATS
Celestino .222 ba, 4 hr 4 sb (379 mlb at bats) age 25
Oilvares .261 ba 24 hr 15 sb (712 mlb at bats) age 28
As long as they're healthy, Olivares and Palacios should open the season with the Pirates after what they did last year. But big questions remain for both, and it's nice to know that Celestino will be an option in AAA (and McKinney is competent too).
Agree 100%. I think for Triolo vs. Peggy vs. Nicky they have some meaning. But even in those cases (and in cases in all MLB camps), the coaches and decision makers are looking well past the stat lines. Last year counts, drills count (can they smoothly turn the DP), off season changes count, etc. That is why I love the in person reports several posters have provided as they have shared things beyond just the box score. I think Olivares was on the opening day roster from day one pending odd circumstances (not batting avg). Same with Conner Joe (several years of average part time starter/bench bat MLB production). That's not a full year plan as they have to produce.
Also if we are looking for that final outfield spot, I don't want to dismiss Billy McKinney or Canaan Smith-Njigba yet. McKinney is hitting .375 and leads the team in walks. CSN has 2 homers in 18 at bats and 4 walks with a more patient approach at the plate than a year ago.
(My post above I say how skewed spring training stats can be, than just show spring training stats on McKinney and CSN. They are impossible for me not to look at. :) )
I am interested in CSN, but he does have an option remaining. His numbers at MLB were not good, and he was sent back to AAA where he completed an excellent year. However, the only opening on the roster would be for a CF, preferably one who bats RH to alternate with the LH hitting Suwinski.
Gilberto Celestino bats RH, is having an excellent ST, and has played 800 innings in CF in MLB. A Trade? That's possible, but I think BC is content with the present status of the Pirates. Something could happen this week, but unless a trade is made, Celestino is the best option.
Can Celestino start in the minors or do the Pirates have to give him a major league spot to keep him?
I don't want to overreact to CSN's two HRs, but they were very impressive and have impacted how I view a CSN AB--instead of hoping for a hard-hit grounder finding a hole, I'm looking for a big fly. If he can keep getting to that power...
He is taking a lot of pitches this year. He did hit .417 the last month at Indy last year which has to count for something. I am not in any rush to start him in the majors, but by no means do I want to count him out of being a Pirate contributor in 2024.
Is history going to repeat itself?
Pass on bringing CSN north to start the season.
I don't think anyone thinks they should bring him north to start the season, but if he plays well in AAA to start the year after the way he played there to end last year, then he'll earn another look.
But that is a good example. When you are definitely on the outside looking in for an opening day roster spot (McKinney and CSN clearly in that boat) then you need to have some splash to your numbers to have any chance. Plus injuries happen so all they can do is try to impress.