Anyone who pays attention to my ramblings, knows that I’m of the opinion baseball economics are overrated when it comes to winning. However, when MLB is ok with one player making more than entire 26-man roster combined of several other teams, than there’s a major problem.
Congrats to Ohtani for breaking the bank…and piss on MLB Owners, MLBPA, and Agents for creating what is easily the worst sports economic system ever!!!!
The economics of baseball are not nearly so lopsided. Have you looked at futbol worldwide? The economics are far, far more uneven than baseball. Here, every time one of the players on my futbol team starts to get good, I expect an immediate sale to a European team. Meanwhile, only 2 teams in the whole country have a payroll over 10 million USD, while the rest get by on anywhere from 1 million to 5 million. This is the futbol capital of the world. In a fair economic system, Santa Domingo in the DR would probably have the best baseball team in the world.
Ohtani took the Dodgers to the cleaners here. This contract is way out of bounds and far too much money to gamble on any one player: let alone one who is limited to batting DH and coming off Tommy John surgery. This was just plain stupid, stupid, stupid by the Dodgers. Let them squander this exhorbitant sum of money. It may very well ruin their competitiveness for a decade.
Even the Dodger do not have unlimited funds. This is guy coming off a second surgery on his pitching arm, who may be limited to DHing for the rest of his career. The only justification for this contract is to improve the Dodgers brand and merchandising. This was not a baseball move. For this sum, they could have had a healthy Cy-Young-level pitcher and an MVP caliber player who plays an actual position. in the field.
And they’ve still got a mid-tier farm system with some high end guys to trade for a Burnes or Cease. Hell, maybe both.
Ohtani, even with two arm surgeries, is highly athletic. You have to be to be able to do what he does, right? He’s not going to be a DH for the rest of his career.
The best player in the game just joined a team that had two of its players finish in the top 5 in MVP voting in that league. To act like it will ruin their competitiveness is...well, it’s certainly a take.
What will hurt will be the Bonilla like deferred payments but a a much higher rate. They have not announced the differed portion yet not the payment schedule but it has been described as un precedented. That is what will likely burden them for several decades after Ohtani is long done playing.
Last year it was the Scherzer deal that challenged the Pirates 26-man total. OK Bob, now you've got to hit $70M this year.......you can do it, you can do it, you can do it......!!
Con Joe - 472 PA, 11 HR, wOBA .332, wRC+ 107, Off +4.5, Def -1.5, fWAR 1.9
Not sure at this point I'd go straight up Joe for Mountcastle, let alone throw in one of our best young SP's. Mountie can hit some bombs, but check out his K/BB ratio. He was close to 4/1 in 2021 and 2022, and got that down to around 3/1 in 2023. Joe in the last 2 years with over 400 AB's is a 2/1 K/BB hitter. And we would also be giving up a year of service - Mountie is in his 4th Year and Joe is in his 3rd year.
Mel, Mountie is four years Joe’s junior, and he’s far superior in every expected stat in the book. Also, he was a GG finalist at 1B. He had a somewhat down year, but he is the perfect buy low candidate. He’s also a full time player, so he saves you a roster spot. I like Joe but as a platoon player. He’s perfect to pair with Suwinski in RF. This is not an either/or situation.
I don’t get this Mountcastle thing at all. See stats above. Plus he’s now about to start on the downside of his career. No way I’m trading an organizational top 5 pitching prospect for Mountcastle.
One of the many issues that the Pirates face in trying to upgrade their roster is the lack of trade chips. They’ve dumped all their veteran assets as part of the tank job. So now comes the hard part: scouting your own players and scouting the opposition to determine which young players you can afford to give up. I don’t trust the current regime to pull this off.
I don’t get the fans clinging to all half-decent prospects like they’re gold and overrating them. Not that I’m pushing Jones for Mounty. But good lord, do some fans here think every new prospect is the hottest shit of all.
Joe’s numbers are propped up by his stellar walk rate. His plate discipline is great but basically that is all he brings to the table. If you want a bonafide middle of the order bat that can play everyday and actually hits the ball really hard, then the answer is Mountie. This team needs to score more runs.
I like the idea but would try with say Holderman and another further away pitcher (maybe Sullivan). Until we sign another pitcher or 2, Jones is one of our next men up for the rotation.
Also, I don’t really consider Jones “ready”. I like him, but I think he’s going to have a lot of issues adjusting to the MLB. IMO, he needs more seasoning. I love his competitiveness and athleticism, but at the MLB level, that could be more detrimental to his development in the short run. He’s already a max effort guy, now add in the adrenaline from pitching in the show and trying to prove yourself to the world. I just don’t see him in a traditional starter’s role at the getgo; if you don’t mind losing a roster spot, maybe you break him in with 3-4 inning stints, but either way you’ll have to manage his workload bc those “stress” pitches will be off the charts when he’s in the MLB.
I agree, this organization puts players in a position to fail quite often. I can see them bring Jones up before he is ready because they didn't address the glaring holes on the roster.
I would prefer Holderman for Mountcastle straight up, didn’t realize Holderman’s surplus value is actually higher than Jones. My original proposal was based off the rumors that the Orioles were looking for young starting pitching, but if they need to strengthen their bullpen, I would send Holderman their way in a heartbeat.
Id also think Baltimore would want young pitching that’s actually made it to the majors. To me, there’s pretty much just one team who fits that bill with multiple arms like that: Miami.
Why is Jared Jones not thought to be a favorite to open the season as a part of the Pirate Rotation? He's young, but spent 15 Starts and 82 IP at AAA last year after starting the season at AA with 10 Starts, 44.1 IP. Not sure another round in AAA will do him or the team any good, except to delay his entry into MLB.
I commented on the 1B situation with the Pirates and I would be satisfied if they started the season with RH hitting Connor Joe at 1B, where he spent 300+ innings with a +5.5 UZR/150 in 2023. For first basemen with 300+ innings he would be second with that UZR/150. First Base would also be a location for RH Hitting Utility IF Jared Triolo, and a spot to provide leg rest for Catcher Endy Rodriguez who is a switch hitter, and played some time at 1B early with the Mets. And, Henry Davis could also be a possibility. We need those AB's at 1B and DH for the players we are trying to develop. 'Sugo is off the market (SF?)
What will the Pirates end up paying for Marco Gonzalez in 2024? He's listed as $12 mil, but the Mariners included $4.5 mil when sending him to the Braves, so bringing that down to $7.5 mil. Then I thought I saw something that the Braves were also going to send money that would bring his total for the Pirates to around $4 mil. What is the bottom line? Whatever it is it will be a well worth it if he can return to 2022 numbers with Seattle where he had 32 Starts, 183 IP, 10-15, 4.13 ERA.
I don't believe Jones is ready. Think he could use some more time to continue to round out as a pitcher. He'll get a shot at some point this season I would imagine, but think it'll be later on.
Agree... you don't have to crush AAA but he really treaded water at best last year. He's young.. people were saying the same about Priester last year - ie. just put him in the majors. He needs to prove he can consistently get out AAA batters before we let a possibly 'hot' spring training put him in the rotation.
The first one was easy as you can figure it out by looking at the details of the trade but the other two were Cherington comments and those require some kind of suspension of belief especially the last one, which makes absolutely no sense. Listening to him is like reading a copy of The Onion if that even still exists.
That's great. Since it is about $4 mil that the Braves are adding, and if the Pirates can opt to send cash rather than a PTBNL, are those cash amounts usually agreed upon at the time of the trade? Thank you.
Glad you responded because when the discussions re Ohtani traveling to Dunedin to talk with the Jays was going on, I think MLB TV commented that the Jays facility in Dunedin has some exotic equipment not available to other MLB teams? Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Agree with Wilbur. Holderman has 2 more years of control than Bednar and showed signs of some closer capability. We all hope Bednar is here for the long haul, but reality says 3 more years of control. Why trade a possible heir apparent unless overwhelmed with an offer. If he is closer capable.. we have a great 1-2 punch for several more years!
Heck, he doesn’t even have to end up as closer. One way teams win now is with a string of shutdown relievers. For 3 years all we saw was hittable DeJong types who could “throw multiple innings.” Finally in 2023 BC started finding guys who could go in mid-game and shut down a rally. I don’t want to turn right around and get rid of them.
And anybody who thinks guys like that don’t help should check out the Pirates’ rotation while they were playing .500 ball in Aug/Sept.
Remember Garrett Jones? They finally started platooning him and he got off to the best start of his career. After about three weeks, Dejan started writing that Jones had earned the right to play every day.
The other thing that I don't understand is the desire to trade away every decent reliever that we have. It has taken Cherington 4 years to actually get a functioning bullpen in Pittsburgh. Do we really want to tear that apart before it has had even a full season to function?
They should be seeing what he'd bring back in a trade for a starter or RF/1B. As good as he's been, we have options to cover the 8th and covering the 8th won't matter match if we don't strengthen the rotation and/or lineup.
What's most disappointing about that, for me anyway, is when I read about the deal my first thought was 'yeah, we'd never guarantee $80MM for a FA pitcher so ERod was never really an option'.
At least the Reynolds' extension shows we're willing to go that high with a position player that already has a track record with us.
I would love to see the Pirates on the + side of .500 in '24, but I am glad they are not jumping out there at this particular point in the development of this team. I truly think they have more than enough right now to compete in 2024.
With Oneil Cruz returning, I like the lineup especially with Joe, Triolo, Endy, and possibly Liover Peguero who were all contributors last year. The pitching is locked in a 1, 2, and I am hoping Andre Jackson, and possibly Luis Ortiz, Carmen Mlodzinski, Quinn Priester, or Bailey Falter can step up. Gonzales could be a big help to Falter.
Yeah who needs an actual good pitcher like Rodriguez when we have (checks notes) Bailey Falter and Andre Jackson. Can’t take starts away from those studs.
I wish I shared your optimism about the pitching. A 1 and 2 locked in? Keller is a legitimate #2, but Gonzalez? In the best-case scenario, he is a #3. I like the Gonzalez move, but there is a greater than 0 chance that he is a washout. They still need another very good starting pitcher to have any chance of competing in 2024: not a 10-million-dollar-per-year innings-eating rotation filler, but a legitimate starting pitcher who can produce wins and keep the team in the game 25+ times next year.
In the best-case scenario, he is 3. He will be anywhere from a #3 to a low-leverage long-reliever to a guy who has to retire owing to an injury. We shall see. Obviously, I hope for the best case.
I feel like 80% of your off-season plans should be executed by Xmas, and no later than New Years. The clock is ticking...if they’re waiting into Jan/Feb, they will be left with overpaid scraps.
Baseballs hot stove drags on worse than one of those 5-hour Yankees vs Red Sox games with guys like Nomar Garciaparra taking a minute between pitches to get undressed and re-dressed.
Anyone who pays attention to my ramblings, knows that I’m of the opinion baseball economics are overrated when it comes to winning. However, when MLB is ok with one player making more than entire 26-man roster combined of several other teams, than there’s a major problem.
Congrats to Ohtani for breaking the bank…and piss on MLB Owners, MLBPA, and Agents for creating what is easily the worst sports economic system ever!!!!
The economics of baseball are not nearly so lopsided. Have you looked at futbol worldwide? The economics are far, far more uneven than baseball. Here, every time one of the players on my futbol team starts to get good, I expect an immediate sale to a European team. Meanwhile, only 2 teams in the whole country have a payroll over 10 million USD, while the rest get by on anywhere from 1 million to 5 million. This is the futbol capital of the world. In a fair economic system, Santa Domingo in the DR would probably have the best baseball team in the world.
Ohtani took the Dodgers to the cleaners here. This contract is way out of bounds and far too much money to gamble on any one player: let alone one who is limited to batting DH and coming off Tommy John surgery. This was just plain stupid, stupid, stupid by the Dodgers. Let them squander this exhorbitant sum of money. It may very well ruin their competitiveness for a decade.
Ruin their competitiveness for a decade? No. Just no. The last half of the decade will certainly be a burden.
Even the Dodger do not have unlimited funds. This is guy coming off a second surgery on his pitching arm, who may be limited to DHing for the rest of his career. The only justification for this contract is to improve the Dodgers brand and merchandising. This was not a baseball move. For this sum, they could have had a healthy Cy-Young-level pitcher and an MVP caliber player who plays an actual position. in the field.
And they’ve still got a mid-tier farm system with some high end guys to trade for a Burnes or Cease. Hell, maybe both.
Ohtani, even with two arm surgeries, is highly athletic. You have to be to be able to do what he does, right? He’s not going to be a DH for the rest of his career.
The best player in the game just joined a team that had two of its players finish in the top 5 in MVP voting in that league. To act like it will ruin their competitiveness is...well, it’s certainly a take.
What will hurt will be the Bonilla like deferred payments but a a much higher rate. They have not announced the differed portion yet not the payment schedule but it has been described as un precedented. That is what will likely burden them for several decades after Ohtani is long done playing.
I meant American sports. I know there are soccer leagues designed for only certain teams to win.
As for Dodgers, they obviously are banking on a shit ton of Japanese support to justify this kind of financial investment.
As for this move ruining their competitiveness, we can only hope. Logic dictates otherwise.
The exact reason why Cuban said that he was so glad that he never did buy a MLB franchise. A ton of money is deferred. The new Bobby Bonilla
Last year it was the Scherzer deal that challenged the Pirates 26-man total. OK Bob, now you've got to hit $70M this year.......you can do it, you can do it, you can do it......!!
And congrats to the agent and/or Japanese culture. They barter hard, always negotiate hard.
I think they set up the Dodgers that he was going to Blue Jays, and kept pushing the price tag up.
He never wanted to leave L.A. area.
Josh Naylor rumors heating up
Fat boy on a diet; don’t try it ♪ ♪ ♪
Jared Jones for Ryan Mountcastle, straight up, meets both teams stated needs. 1B is solidified for the next two to three years at a minimum.
Mountie - 470 PA, 18 HR, wOBA .333, wRC+ 114, Off +9.0, Def -8.4, fWAR 1.7
Con Joe - 472 PA, 11 HR, wOBA .332, wRC+ 107, Off +4.5, Def -1.5, fWAR 1.9
Not sure at this point I'd go straight up Joe for Mountcastle, let alone throw in one of our best young SP's. Mountie can hit some bombs, but check out his K/BB ratio. He was close to 4/1 in 2021 and 2022, and got that down to around 3/1 in 2023. Joe in the last 2 years with over 400 AB's is a 2/1 K/BB hitter. And we would also be giving up a year of service - Mountie is in his 4th Year and Joe is in his 3rd year.
Mel, Mountie is four years Joe’s junior, and he’s far superior in every expected stat in the book. Also, he was a GG finalist at 1B. He had a somewhat down year, but he is the perfect buy low candidate. He’s also a full time player, so he saves you a roster spot. I like Joe but as a platoon player. He’s perfect to pair with Suwinski in RF. This is not an either/or situation.
Good research Mel.
I don’t get this Mountcastle thing at all. See stats above. Plus he’s now about to start on the downside of his career. No way I’m trading an organizational top 5 pitching prospect for Mountcastle.
One of the many issues that the Pirates face in trying to upgrade their roster is the lack of trade chips. They’ve dumped all their veteran assets as part of the tank job. So now comes the hard part: scouting your own players and scouting the opposition to determine which young players you can afford to give up. I don’t trust the current regime to pull this off.
I don’t get the fans clinging to all half-decent prospects like they’re gold and overrating them. Not that I’m pushing Jones for Mounty. But good lord, do some fans here think every new prospect is the hottest shit of all.
Joe’s numbers are propped up by his stellar walk rate. His plate discipline is great but basically that is all he brings to the table. If you want a bonafide middle of the order bat that can play everyday and actually hits the ball really hard, then the answer is Mountie. This team needs to score more runs.
I don't either
I like the idea but would try with say Holderman and another further away pitcher (maybe Sullivan). Until we sign another pitcher or 2, Jones is one of our next men up for the rotation.
Also, I don’t really consider Jones “ready”. I like him, but I think he’s going to have a lot of issues adjusting to the MLB. IMO, he needs more seasoning. I love his competitiveness and athleticism, but at the MLB level, that could be more detrimental to his development in the short run. He’s already a max effort guy, now add in the adrenaline from pitching in the show and trying to prove yourself to the world. I just don’t see him in a traditional starter’s role at the getgo; if you don’t mind losing a roster spot, maybe you break him in with 3-4 inning stints, but either way you’ll have to manage his workload bc those “stress” pitches will be off the charts when he’s in the MLB.
I agree, this organization puts players in a position to fail quite often. I can see them bring Jones up before he is ready because they didn't address the glaring holes on the roster.
It will take Jared Jones three years and compounding eras over 7 before he figures it out
Same is true for any pitching prospect not name Skenes or Cole
Jared Jones should be traded
I would prefer Holderman for Mountcastle straight up, didn’t realize Holderman’s surplus value is actually higher than Jones. My original proposal was based off the rumors that the Orioles were looking for young starting pitching, but if they need to strengthen their bullpen, I would send Holderman their way in a heartbeat.
Do you think they would do that trade? I'd love to have Mountcastle.
The trade values line up, but value is always relative.
Id also think Baltimore would want young pitching that’s actually made it to the majors. To me, there’s pretty much just one team who fits that bill with multiple arms like that: Miami.
Yep, I think we have a few arms that can replace Holderman, Jones is one of them but I hope he makes it as a starter.
Why is Jared Jones not thought to be a favorite to open the season as a part of the Pirate Rotation? He's young, but spent 15 Starts and 82 IP at AAA last year after starting the season at AA with 10 Starts, 44.1 IP. Not sure another round in AAA will do him or the team any good, except to delay his entry into MLB.
I commented on the 1B situation with the Pirates and I would be satisfied if they started the season with RH hitting Connor Joe at 1B, where he spent 300+ innings with a +5.5 UZR/150 in 2023. For first basemen with 300+ innings he would be second with that UZR/150. First Base would also be a location for RH Hitting Utility IF Jared Triolo, and a spot to provide leg rest for Catcher Endy Rodriguez who is a switch hitter, and played some time at 1B early with the Mets. And, Henry Davis could also be a possibility. We need those AB's at 1B and DH for the players we are trying to develop. 'Sugo is off the market (SF?)
What will the Pirates end up paying for Marco Gonzalez in 2024? He's listed as $12 mil, but the Mariners included $4.5 mil when sending him to the Braves, so bringing that down to $7.5 mil. Then I thought I saw something that the Braves were also going to send money that would bring his total for the Pirates to around $4 mil. What is the bottom line? Whatever it is it will be a well worth it if he can return to 2022 numbers with Seattle where he had 32 Starts, 183 IP, 10-15, 4.13 ERA.
I think Endy would hit much better if he caught half the time, then played 1B with some DH the other half.
I don't believe Jones is ready. Think he could use some more time to continue to round out as a pitcher. He'll get a shot at some point this season I would imagine, but think it'll be later on.
Agree... you don't have to crush AAA but he really treaded water at best last year. He's young.. people were saying the same about Priester last year - ie. just put him in the majors. He needs to prove he can consistently get out AAA batters before we let a possibly 'hot' spring training put him in the rotation.
all these questions have been recently answered
Marco $3m
Triolo will play all infield positions
Endy and Tank will only catch
The first one was easy as you can figure it out by looking at the details of the trade but the other two were Cherington comments and those require some kind of suspension of belief especially the last one, which makes absolutely no sense. Listening to him is like reading a copy of The Onion if that even still exists.
It’s the reason Cutch hasn’t signed yet because they will take turns at dh in their non catching days
They’ll pay Gonzales $3M.
That's great. Since it is about $4 mil that the Braves are adding, and if the Pirates can opt to send cash rather than a PTBNL, are those cash amounts usually agreed upon at the time of the trade? Thank you.
Glad you responded because when the discussions re Ohtani traveling to Dunedin to talk with the Jays was going on, I think MLB TV commented that the Jays facility in Dunedin has some exotic equipment not available to other MLB teams? Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Colin Holderman is our best (replaceable) trade chip
If you make a good trade, what you get is . . . another Holderman.
Agree with Wilbur. Holderman has 2 more years of control than Bednar and showed signs of some closer capability. We all hope Bednar is here for the long haul, but reality says 3 more years of control. Why trade a possible heir apparent unless overwhelmed with an offer. If he is closer capable.. we have a great 1-2 punch for several more years!
Heck, he doesn’t even have to end up as closer. One way teams win now is with a string of shutdown relievers. For 3 years all we saw was hittable DeJong types who could “throw multiple innings.” Finally in 2023 BC started finding guys who could go in mid-game and shut down a rally. I don’t want to turn right around and get rid of them.
And anybody who thinks guys like that don’t help should check out the Pirates’ rotation while they were playing .500 ball in Aug/Sept.
then stretch him out
in fact, stretching out MLod is not the worst idea
He already “failed” as a starter in the minors, so I’m failing to see the point.
I’m always mystified at fans who want to take a guy who failed as a starter and succeeded as a reliever, and turn him back into a starter.
A strong corollary is the power hitting platoon guy who showed he can’t play full time, yet fans want him to continue to try to hit lefties.
Remember Garrett Jones? They finally started platooning him and he got off to the best start of his career. After about three weeks, Dejan started writing that Jones had earned the right to play every day.
Is a better option than Ortiz, Contreras and Priester
Besides how many starts throw more than four innings anyways these days?
The other thing that I don't understand is the desire to trade away every decent reliever that we have. It has taken Cherington 4 years to actually get a functioning bullpen in Pittsburgh. Do we really want to tear that apart before it has had even a full season to function?
We’ve had a good bullpen for 10 years and a losing record the majority of that time
last time he was traded for a fatheads sandwich
They should be seeing what he'd bring back in a trade for a starter or RF/1B. As good as he's been, we have options to cover the 8th and covering the 8th won't matter match if we don't strengthen the rotation and/or lineup.
I was super disappointed ERod signed with the Dbacks. He would’ve been the best SP acquisition since Burnett.
What's most disappointing about that, for me anyway, is when I read about the deal my first thought was 'yeah, we'd never guarantee $80MM for a FA pitcher so ERod was never really an option'.
At least the Reynolds' extension shows we're willing to go that high with a position player that already has a track record with us.
I would love to see the Pirates on the + side of .500 in '24, but I am glad they are not jumping out there at this particular point in the development of this team. I truly think they have more than enough right now to compete in 2024.
With Oneil Cruz returning, I like the lineup especially with Joe, Triolo, Endy, and possibly Liover Peguero who were all contributors last year. The pitching is locked in a 1, 2, and I am hoping Andre Jackson, and possibly Luis Ortiz, Carmen Mlodzinski, Quinn Priester, or Bailey Falter can step up. Gonzales could be a big help to Falter.
Yeah who needs an actual good pitcher like Rodriguez when we have (checks notes) Bailey Falter and Andre Jackson. Can’t take starts away from those studs.
I wish I shared your optimism about the pitching. A 1 and 2 locked in? Keller is a legitimate #2, but Gonzalez? In the best-case scenario, he is a #3. I like the Gonzalez move, but there is a greater than 0 chance that he is a washout. They still need another very good starting pitcher to have any chance of competing in 2024: not a 10-million-dollar-per-year innings-eating rotation filler, but a legitimate starting pitcher who can produce wins and keep the team in the game 25+ times next year.
If we are being honest, Marco is probably more a #4 at this point.
In the best-case scenario, he is 3. He will be anywhere from a #3 to a low-leverage long-reliever to a guy who has to retire owing to an injury. We shall see. Obviously, I hope for the best case.
Technically is not even winter yet, so let’s hope something good happens soon.
I feel like 80% of your off-season plans should be executed by Xmas, and no later than New Years. The clock is ticking...if they’re waiting into Jan/Feb, they will be left with overpaid scraps.
That’s been the standard operating procedure for them for the most part, luckily there hasn’t been that much movement.
Baseballs hot stove drags on worse than one of those 5-hour Yankees vs Red Sox games with guys like Nomar Garciaparra taking a minute between pitches to get undressed and re-dressed.
Good one. Great analogy.
Who also gets to see Mia Hamm do the same thing. SOB