Super late to the party here. My questions: 1) wasn’t Cruz a train wreck when he played OF for Indy? And 2) am I the only one who remembers the last time the Bucs tried the SS to CF shuffle with perhaps a more athletic guy (or at least one who didn’t have to coordinate four extra long limbs)? Bonus question from a guy who doesn’t see the games: on a scale of one to 10 (10 being the SS analog for Ryan Doumit , how bad has Cruz been at fielding his position?
These type of hypothetical responses would invite the same media firestorm NRM refers to above. If you read actual response (he is our SS for now), he answered the question as honestly as possible AND avoided a two week period where he and O’Neil are constantly asked to further address the situation and Cruz doesn’t feel unsupported.
Now we need Peguero, who reportedly is playing a better SS, to start hitting. One thing to consider is Cruz reaction time, as long as he learns to read the ball his current reaction time (which I believe is tad slow) will play better in CF.
Cherington communicated this in the worst way possible, except for literally all the others.
Seriously, what the hell was he supposed to say here?
We want the General Manager publicly questioning the starting shortstop's ability to play the position?
The second he waivers, the first mealy-mouthed "weighing our options" statement, this becomes a total clown show. The only question the player and the GM gets from that point forward. A daily reminder to Oneil that your own boss has lost confidence in your ability.
Put yourself in Oneil's shoes for literally one second and ask yourself how you'd feel if your boss was openly questioning your competency for the entire world to see.
I've come to see both the upside and downside of moving him now vs the offseason (which I think I would personally prefer), but of all the things theyve fucked up I dont think Cherington missed on the communication here. Like you said, what were the other options?
I think you are conflating 2 distinct timing issues Anthony.
The first I am with you 100%, and this is the timing of BC making this announcement mere days after emphatically confirming Cruz was a SS. That’s weird, it is more strange that he didn’t acknowledge it and have some mea culpa or hey we were wrong and we want to get him out there and comfortable as soon as possible. I don’t think it is a question that this is/was a bad move by BC.
The second timing is the fact that they are changing our best players position with 40 days left in the season. Whether or not that is a good move or not at this point is a matter of opinion. We will see how that piece plays out, it is not an uncharted move we saw tatis also move out to the outfield. I think this is a player by player exercise. I want to see him out there, and I want to hear him speak about it before I form an opinion. I think it could work but certainly acknowledge the risks.
WRT to Cherington, can we believe anything he says in the future? Or more importantly, can the players? "Bednar is our closer" Is he? "Davis will catch." Will he? ...
Another minor detail on timing, why not wait until there is an off day the next day? You don't even give your best player a day to adjust to the disappointment? To Cruz's credit, the shots of him talking and laughing with Cutch were encouraging...which made me wonder if the one logical reason you'd move Cruz now is to give him a month to work with Cutch if Cutch isn't expected to come back next year.
Did you ever really believe anything he said to begin with? And I don’t mean that as some sort of dig at BC. I think lots of GMs say stuff and change their mind (or the wheels are in motion for a change behind the scenes). Or they just answer a question with a lie the best they can at the time.
I’m not sure I’ve ever really believed much of what our GMs have said going back a decade.
There is GM-speak, and he's done plenty of that and could have done it here. For example, "We'll continue to work with Oneil to help him get the most out of his prodigious talent and do the most to help the team achieve its goal of winning championships."
It is striking that everyone just expects people in positions of authority to lie now. What is wrong with just telling the truth, or if it is not possible to tell the truth owing to hurt feelings or some other such thing, just say nothing. A common refrain that you hear from athletes is that they like so and so as their manager, coach, whatever, because he is honest. Just be honest. I would not hire a dishonest person, like Cherington, for anything. If he is willing to lie to fans, he will lie to the owner and anyone else. A liar is a liar... period.
Totally agree. This is way off topic, but Josh Harris, the new football owner in Washington, DC, is setting a fine example in this regard. He comes across as really open and honest, and when he can’t or won’t answer a question (due to confidentiality or other reasons) he says so. Very refreshing.
tomorrow. Does the team plan on cutting (insert random DB involved in a battle to make the final roster)?”
Does Josh Harris (or his GM respond:
A. “Most likely we will. We are just waiting for other teams to cut some DB’s to find someone better. If no one does, I guess we will have to keep him on the roster.”
B. “No comment. Next question.”
C. “Right now (our current dude) is in a battle for a spot to back up our other dude. There are always a lot of moving parts leading up to the deadline, so you’ll just have to wait to see how things play out. But right now, we really like (our current dude) and would be more than fine having him on the roster.”
You can just say, "I don't want to get into that at this juncture." On the Cruz situation, just say, "We are not at a point where I can speak to that directly. If we arrive at that point, I will speak directly, but not now." People understand that there are some things that you just can't say in polite company, or at least they did. If you fart in a crowded room, or if someone next to you farts, polite society used to just ignore this. You don't yell out, "I farted" or "Who the hell is stinking up the place?"
These type of hypothetical responses would invite the same media firestorm NRM refers to above. If you read actual response (he is our SS for now), he answered the question as honestly as possible AND avoided a two week period where he and O’Neil are constantly asked to further address the situation and Cruz doesn’t feel unsupported.
What’s the actual quote from BC? Didn’t he say the term “right now” to describe Cruz as staying at short? That is assuredly a technicality. Now, as for the real reason they made the change 8 days after? They may not have had the needed conversations with Cruz at the time the question was asked. So, maybe BC didn’t feel like had much choice.
This type of stuff with front office management has gone on for decades. Think of any coach or manager who is on the hot seat and gets the dreaded vote of confidence that they’ll remain in their position and then fired a week later. This isn’t just BC acting this way, I think it’s the nature of the business.
“All I can tell you right now is he is our shortstop.”
That was his answer.
So technically, he didn't lie because Cruz was the SS on 8/18.
There's no way he's going to say "We are having some internal discussions about moving Oneil to the outfield, but nothing's been decided yet", if they A) haven't decided and B) have decided but haven't told Cruz yet.
I have a feeling this is what gets Cherington fired after the 2025 season. I don't think he's doing this for the right reasons...He's doing this to cover CF and SS. This was the plan when they acquired IKF.
We've all seen Cruz miss easy liners and he did not take well to playing LF for Indy.
I hope I'm dead wrong here and we have a 6 WAR monster out there with IKF being a 3-win SS.
Of course he's doing this to cover two positions, on account of the fact his owner just directly told him there's no money to actually increase payroll in any substantial manner.
Firing him for *that* would be one hell of a shitty boss. Now firing him for *gestures wildly at everything*, that's another story.
It seemed like when the padres' moved tatis off the dirt and into RF a few years ago, he really embraced it and dove into become an exceptional RFer (plat glove if im remembering right?), so we can just hope that oneil also buys in that much. I think tatis had 300 million reasons to commit to it already though
Excellent report on it to include our bumbling, fumbling GM and Manager. If only BC was this intent on plugging positional holes that need plugged and unloading Derek Shelton as the Manager. BC has been sitting idle at finding a young CF for at least the last year, and DS has taken this team as far as he is capable of taking it, and it will take someone else to move them further forward.
I have said it often on here that BC has proven to be as good as they come at the Draft and is very good at finding some winners in trades that do not appear to be good finds when made. Bailey Falter is a good example of that, and I think that IKF, BDLC, Yorke, and Cook will give us solid returns. The timing of the Cruz move could have definitely been better. It tends to look like they have located the problem and they have taken the necessary steps to eliminate the problem. He may actually like the move, but it could have been handled better.
Only problem is that our best young SS (IMO) is in AAA - Liover Peguero. If we are going to be proactive, then complete the cycle. That 30+ games that will "benefit" Cruz to getting comfortable in CF could also work for the MI that we think can lead us to the playoffs. Peguero and one or two of NG/IKF/Triolo/Yorke as the second baseman and Utility IF.
BC is good at drafting pitchers… that’s it so far. NH wasn’t too bad at that either. The fact of the matter is BC has had shit results and it’s time for him to put up or get fired.
Next year has to be a playoff year. Plain and simple.
The major league roster is below average for the amount of talent on it when he took over. Too many bad trades have resulted in a bad every day lineup.
Agree with you that if they are going to do this, then we really need to lean into it with the rest of the roster. Once bart is healthy then grandal needs to be gone, alika/tri down for one of the Indy IFs, get rid of herman and let ashcraft/burrows get their toes wet as well
One of the reasons I really hate the timing of this move is his bat. Cruz is just starting to breakout with the bat, why make a major change during his breakout to cloud his focus now. The move to center should have at least been tried when he first arrived in Charleston with the Power at least on a limited basis. There should have been plenty of time at the training site in 2020 to experiment with Newman coming off his solid 2019 season as a reason for it. I'm all for the move just really dislike the timing, but I'm pulling for Cruz to take to it like a fish in water and praying it's not like a fish on a river bank.
A few years ago when there were talks about whether he could stick in the MI, he mentioned that if he had his pick of another position it would be as the CF. I think Reynolds was in CF at the time. A lot of baseball people are seeing it as something that will help his concentration on the offensive side rather than trying to work as hard as he has to try to improve his defense at SS. Sure, many will question the timing of the decision, but see it as a benefit for him overall.
I love the timing to move Cruz. Thank you 10-game losing streak. It wouldn't have happened while in contention. Start the process now, no need to build this up over the winter, although it would have brought subject matter to deflect from (poor) free agent signings! It's going to be ugly, it may not be "fair" to Cruz, but it gets his feet wet immediately before he and his agent demand a trade.....only half joking. If nothing else, it gets Cruz' head into the move.....or not.
I think you hit the nail on the head. This plan was always in the works. A ten game losing streak coupled with now being well out of contention finally put the wheels in motion.
I’ll only make my judgment on the timing of it based on the results. Stellar second guesser that I am!
In all seriousness, the timing felt weird to me. But I’m coming around on it for the reasons 79 cited. I do wonder, though, I hope they have the guts to stand by the move as he makes mistakes (which he will).
Super late to the party here. My questions: 1) wasn’t Cruz a train wreck when he played OF for Indy? And 2) am I the only one who remembers the last time the Bucs tried the SS to CF shuffle with perhaps a more athletic guy (or at least one who didn’t have to coordinate four extra long limbs)? Bonus question from a guy who doesn’t see the games: on a scale of one to 10 (10 being the SS analog for Ryan Doumit , how bad has Cruz been at fielding his position?
These type of hypothetical responses would invite the same media firestorm NRM refers to above. If you read actual response (he is our SS for now), he answered the question as honestly as possible AND avoided a two week period where he and O’Neil are constantly asked to further address the situation and Cruz doesn’t feel unsupported.
right on, man.
proof that we the people are generally incapable of dealing with nuance. we get what we deserve!
Meant to (and did) post this response to a comment below. My apologies.
Was this move a mistake? The answer depends on Cruz.
Was the timing of the move a mistake? Thevanswer depends on Cruz.
If Cruz performs, it's all good.
The Pirates made the decision. Now they live with it.
4-4 with the 2B, SF, SB. If the decision to move Cruz to CF bothered him, he didn't take it to the plate!
Still at DH, but he is locked in at the plate!
will find out soon at his press conference
wouldnt left field be a better choice for Oneil because he could rob a few homeruns?
hell bmac could rob dongs in lf. ain't nobody need 6'7" to do that.
that Giles catch when he runs into the bleachers is one of my favorite plays in pirate history
Brian Giles was 5'8" tall
Is that two separate measurements or? kidding kidding
Now we need Peguero, who reportedly is playing a better SS, to start hitting. One thing to consider is Cruz reaction time, as long as he learns to read the ball his current reaction time (which I believe is tad slow) will play better in CF.
Cherington communicated this in the worst way possible, except for literally all the others.
Seriously, what the hell was he supposed to say here?
We want the General Manager publicly questioning the starting shortstop's ability to play the position?
The second he waivers, the first mealy-mouthed "weighing our options" statement, this becomes a total clown show. The only question the player and the GM gets from that point forward. A daily reminder to Oneil that your own boss has lost confidence in your ability.
Put yourself in Oneil's shoes for literally one second and ask yourself how you'd feel if your boss was openly questioning your competency for the entire world to see.
Well stated, Cherington will say a lot of words without saying anything often, this was not one of those times.
I basically just sprayed coffee all over my keyboard at your first sentence. Thank you.
Also well said of course.
full inspirational credit to my friend billy churchill.
I've come to see both the upside and downside of moving him now vs the offseason (which I think I would personally prefer), but of all the things theyve fucked up I dont think Cherington missed on the communication here. Like you said, what were the other options?
well said, man. well said.
I think you are conflating 2 distinct timing issues Anthony.
The first I am with you 100%, and this is the timing of BC making this announcement mere days after emphatically confirming Cruz was a SS. That’s weird, it is more strange that he didn’t acknowledge it and have some mea culpa or hey we were wrong and we want to get him out there and comfortable as soon as possible. I don’t think it is a question that this is/was a bad move by BC.
The second timing is the fact that they are changing our best players position with 40 days left in the season. Whether or not that is a good move or not at this point is a matter of opinion. We will see how that piece plays out, it is not an uncharted move we saw tatis also move out to the outfield. I think this is a player by player exercise. I want to see him out there, and I want to hear him speak about it before I form an opinion. I think it could work but certainly acknowledge the risks.
WRT to Cherington, can we believe anything he says in the future? Or more importantly, can the players? "Bednar is our closer" Is he? "Davis will catch." Will he? ...
Another minor detail on timing, why not wait until there is an off day the next day? You don't even give your best player a day to adjust to the disappointment? To Cruz's credit, the shots of him talking and laughing with Cutch were encouraging...which made me wonder if the one logical reason you'd move Cruz now is to give him a month to work with Cutch if Cutch isn't expected to come back next year.
Did you ever really believe anything he said to begin with? And I don’t mean that as some sort of dig at BC. I think lots of GMs say stuff and change their mind (or the wheels are in motion for a change behind the scenes). Or they just answer a question with a lie the best they can at the time.
I’m not sure I’ve ever really believed much of what our GMs have said going back a decade.
There is GM-speak, and he's done plenty of that and could have done it here. For example, "We'll continue to work with Oneil to help him get the most out of his prodigious talent and do the most to help the team achieve its goal of winning championships."
honestly, I don't listen to them talk, if I do, I chuckle. They're like politicians...not transparent.
You listen to the Sunday GM show and it's like Nutting has a scrip for his GMs. Huntington sounded the same when he did the Sunday show. It's all BS.
Yep. Really ain’t much meat on that show.
It is striking that everyone just expects people in positions of authority to lie now. What is wrong with just telling the truth, or if it is not possible to tell the truth owing to hurt feelings or some other such thing, just say nothing. A common refrain that you hear from athletes is that they like so and so as their manager, coach, whatever, because he is honest. Just be honest. I would not hire a dishonest person, like Cherington, for anything. If he is willing to lie to fans, he will lie to the owner and anyone else. A liar is a liar... period.
Totally agree. This is way off topic, but Josh Harris, the new football owner in Washington, DC, is setting a fine example in this regard. He comes across as really open and honest, and when he can’t or won’t answer a question (due to confidentiality or other reasons) he says so. Very refreshing.
“Hey, Josh. Cut day is
tomorrow. Does the team plan on cutting (insert random DB involved in a battle to make the final roster)?”
Does Josh Harris (or his GM respond:
A. “Most likely we will. We are just waiting for other teams to cut some DB’s to find someone better. If no one does, I guess we will have to keep him on the roster.”
B. “No comment. Next question.”
C. “Right now (our current dude) is in a battle for a spot to back up our other dude. There are always a lot of moving parts leading up to the deadline, so you’ll just have to wait to see how things play out. But right now, we really like (our current dude) and would be more than fine having him on the roster.”
Yeah man totally reasonable to ignore questions when asked. People will totally like that better.
You can just say, "I don't want to get into that at this juncture." On the Cruz situation, just say, "We are not at a point where I can speak to that directly. If we arrive at that point, I will speak directly, but not now." People understand that there are some things that you just can't say in polite company, or at least they did. If you fart in a crowded room, or if someone next to you farts, polite society used to just ignore this. You don't yell out, "I farted" or "Who the hell is stinking up the place?"
You don’t tell out when you farted? Dammit I’ve been doing wrong all these years!
These type of hypothetical responses would invite the same media firestorm NRM refers to above. If you read actual response (he is our SS for now), he answered the question as honestly as possible AND avoided a two week period where he and O’Neil are constantly asked to further address the situation and Cruz doesn’t feel unsupported.
What’s the actual quote from BC? Didn’t he say the term “right now” to describe Cruz as staying at short? That is assuredly a technicality. Now, as for the real reason they made the change 8 days after? They may not have had the needed conversations with Cruz at the time the question was asked. So, maybe BC didn’t feel like had much choice.
This type of stuff with front office management has gone on for decades. Think of any coach or manager who is on the hot seat and gets the dreaded vote of confidence that they’ll remain in their position and then fired a week later. This isn’t just BC acting this way, I think it’s the nature of the business.
“All I can tell you right now is he is our shortstop.”
That was his answer.
So technically, he didn't lie because Cruz was the SS on 8/18.
There's no way he's going to say "We are having some internal discussions about moving Oneil to the outfield, but nothing's been decided yet", if they A) haven't decided and B) have decided but haven't told Cruz yet.
When your boss says - "withhold as much as humanly possible"
You listen to the boss, and you know what you signed up for.
I have a feeling this is what gets Cherington fired after the 2025 season. I don't think he's doing this for the right reasons...He's doing this to cover CF and SS. This was the plan when they acquired IKF.
We've all seen Cruz miss easy liners and he did not take well to playing LF for Indy.
I hope I'm dead wrong here and we have a 6 WAR monster out there with IKF being a 3-win SS.
Of course he's doing this to cover two positions, on account of the fact his owner just directly told him there's no money to actually increase payroll in any substantial manner.
Firing him for *that* would be one hell of a shitty boss. Now firing him for *gestures wildly at everything*, that's another story.
Reference for Nutting saying there is no money?
are you arguing that Ben Cherington, on his own volition, refused to use the budget given to him?
come on dude.
Just asking if you're speculating even if it's a reasonable conclusion or if Bob has gone on record saying that payroll is capped.
This just feels like another Archer situation...same but different.
A desperate play by a desperate man...
NOBODY puts Benny in a corner.
As an old fart I’m here for all your 37 yo references😉
“Cherington fired”
We can dream . . . .
IDK, man. I would expect nothing more than meet the new boss.
Probably replace him with Ed Wade.
😳😂
With Ed Wade’s dumber brother.
Fred Wade.
It seemed like when the padres' moved tatis off the dirt and into RF a few years ago, he really embraced it and dove into become an exceptional RFer (plat glove if im remembering right?), so we can just hope that oneil also buys in that much. I think tatis had 300 million reasons to commit to it already though
True, although wasn’t Tatis also moved because he was having some shoulder issues?
Yeah I think youre right, I think I forgot that part of the equation as well
And it’s easier after the player has gotten paid. But I’m all for the move!
Excellent report on it to include our bumbling, fumbling GM and Manager. If only BC was this intent on plugging positional holes that need plugged and unloading Derek Shelton as the Manager. BC has been sitting idle at finding a young CF for at least the last year, and DS has taken this team as far as he is capable of taking it, and it will take someone else to move them further forward.
I have said it often on here that BC has proven to be as good as they come at the Draft and is very good at finding some winners in trades that do not appear to be good finds when made. Bailey Falter is a good example of that, and I think that IKF, BDLC, Yorke, and Cook will give us solid returns. The timing of the Cruz move could have definitely been better. It tends to look like they have located the problem and they have taken the necessary steps to eliminate the problem. He may actually like the move, but it could have been handled better.
Only problem is that our best young SS (IMO) is in AAA - Liover Peguero. If we are going to be proactive, then complete the cycle. That 30+ games that will "benefit" Cruz to getting comfortable in CF could also work for the MI that we think can lead us to the playoffs. Peguero and one or two of NG/IKF/Triolo/Yorke as the second baseman and Utility IF.
BC is good at drafting pitchers… that’s it so far. NH wasn’t too bad at that either. The fact of the matter is BC has had shit results and it’s time for him to put up or get fired.
Next year has to be a playoff year. Plain and simple.
The major league roster is below average for the amount of talent on it when he took over. Too many bad trades have resulted in a bad every day lineup.
Agree with you that if they are going to do this, then we really need to lean into it with the rest of the roster. Once bart is healthy then grandal needs to be gone, alika/tri down for one of the Indy IFs, get rid of herman and let ashcraft/burrows get their toes wet as well
One of the reasons I really hate the timing of this move is his bat. Cruz is just starting to breakout with the bat, why make a major change during his breakout to cloud his focus now. The move to center should have at least been tried when he first arrived in Charleston with the Power at least on a limited basis. There should have been plenty of time at the training site in 2020 to experiment with Newman coming off his solid 2019 season as a reason for it. I'm all for the move just really dislike the timing, but I'm pulling for Cruz to take to it like a fish in water and praying it's not like a fish on a river bank.
Great point that I hadn't considered--best month of the season and then you drop this news on him?
Was thinking the same thing…
A few years ago when there were talks about whether he could stick in the MI, he mentioned that if he had his pick of another position it would be as the CF. I think Reynolds was in CF at the time. A lot of baseball people are seeing it as something that will help his concentration on the offensive side rather than trying to work as hard as he has to try to improve his defense at SS. Sure, many will question the timing of the decision, but see it as a benefit for him overall.
I love the timing to move Cruz. Thank you 10-game losing streak. It wouldn't have happened while in contention. Start the process now, no need to build this up over the winter, although it would have brought subject matter to deflect from (poor) free agent signings! It's going to be ugly, it may not be "fair" to Cruz, but it gets his feet wet immediately before he and his agent demand a trade.....only half joking. If nothing else, it gets Cruz' head into the move.....or not.
I think you hit the nail on the head. This plan was always in the works. A ten game losing streak coupled with now being well out of contention finally put the wheels in motion.
You're absolutely correct, as usual, '79.
They did they player-centric thing and gave the guy every opportunity to make it, arguably years' longer than they should have.
Making the move now gives him a no-stress debut and more reps than he'd have gotten just shagging fungos over the winter or whatever.
Still don't like the timing but you give a good reason for now.
I’ll only make my judgment on the timing of it based on the results. Stellar second guesser that I am!
In all seriousness, the timing felt weird to me. But I’m coming around on it for the reasons 79 cited. I do wonder, though, I hope they have the guts to stand by the move as he makes mistakes (which he will).