I've said for a while they need to start trading pitching for hitting since we all know they can develop pitching and can't develop hitting. None of the departing pitchers is a huge loss. Ortiz will have a good career, sure. Michael Kennedy is far enough away from the majors that the Guardians are taking on significant risk. Hartle's ceiling is probably 7th inning reliever.
Given what trash in-house hitting development is for the Pirates, this seems reasonable.
Bringing in Ramon Laureano on the cheap would be advanced dumpster diving (and something that I would not necessarily be opposed to... he could play LF at PNC... better than Reynolds anyway).
Posted an hour ago on CBS Sports and apparently quoting Pittsburgh Post Gazette and posted by Mike Axisa (doing all this so you know where it came from - believe or distrust is up to you).
"The Pirates are open to trading Mitch Keller, and Jared Jones is said to be "very available," according to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. Pittsburgh traded three players, including righty Luis Ortiz, to get lefty bat Spencer Horwitz on Tuesday. They're willing to continue trading pitching for bats, and Keller and especially Jones could bring back significant returns.
Keller, 28, is owed $69.5 million from 2025-28. He threw 178 almost perfectly league average innings in 2024. Jones, 23, struck out 132 batters in 121 ⅔ innings as a rookie this past season. He also missed time with injury. Jones still has five seasons of team control remaining. One thing is certain: Pittsburgh will not trade Paul Skenes. It seems everyone else is on the table."
This is what I read: “ Word of Jones’ availability came to the Post-Gazette’s attention Tuesday evening, not long before the Ortiz deal was made, meaning his trade status could have changed with another young right-hander no longer in the picture.”
This sounds a lot softer than “very available” but I guess this is the trouble with aggregators.
Hopefully this rumor is either them getting calls and not immediately saying no in case someone wants to significantly overpay or part of a move to get a big bat and the salary savings is used to sign another starting pitcher.
My only thought is somebody has to pitch. For those who read my posts (I appreciate both of you), I am a firm believer in anybody can be traded for the right return so I absolutely think they should gauge interest, but I would be concerned if both were traded. But I also believe the Skenes Era must be maximized as winning in Pittsburgh will only get harder (even forgetting the Nutting factor) with the latest contracts being handed out.
I see we lost Dylan Shockley and Darvon Garcia. In addition to the already mentioned de la Rosa, they also picked up Aaron McKeithan, C Randy Labuan, LHP Steve Hajjar, LHP and Joel Mendez OF all in the minor league phase
I don't recall fits, but I am glad that Siani is still in the system. We'll get to see if he can repeat the success he had in Arizona.
The most interesting thing to me is that we have four roster spots available and chose to pass. Hopefully that implies that more significant additions will be made.
Looking at Horwitz's pre-MLB work, he's hit at every level. Per B-R, his career numbers (including college, which were some of his worst hitting years), he's .298/.400/.461 with a BB:K ratio of 9:10.
Regarding his age, he just turned 27 last month but was drafted in 2019, lost the 2020 year, and moved through the minors in 2021-2023 to make MLB debut in 2023. 27 seems old, but it seems like he went through the progression about as quickly as possible.
Seems I was right after all. Turner was a negative WAR player through his age 26 season. Dodgers spread some of their magic pixie dust on him when he turned 29.
Thanks, Anthony, for including the highlights on YT. You can see that Horwitz doesn't hit Cruz missiles (though few do), so the exit velo questions make sense. The other thing I noticed is that the Jays seemed to use him mostly at 1-2 earlier in the season and then he spent time at cleanup later in the year. IKF was also mentioned as being on base when he collected hits, so I'm curious where Shelton will slot him.
I'm looking forward to watching Horwitz--I appreciate his skillset more than the big swinger who might hit moon shots but has a lot of swing-and-miss too.
I think this is the type of trade we have all wanted for the past 5 years. Horwitz was not a highlighted player, but his numbers are strong for a first year player. Yes, he has matured late, but hopefully he continues to excel.
Like to know how this came about and whether the Pirates had already pre-set the return to the Guard's prior to them making the trade with the Jay's? And, did Hague get the ball rolling by telling Shelton or BC directly about Horwitz?
I don't know how this works out. Dude. Looks like he can hit some and watching the Pirates last season, I kept finding myself saying, "damn, we can't hit."
Spencer, Cook, Yorke a legit corner OF, maybe I won't being saying it so much.
Another MiL signing: RH RP Wilkin Ramos, whom the Pirates lost a couple years ago in the MiL Rule 5. Throws hard, pitched well in AA after they lost him, but couldn't throw strikes in AAA this year.
So... I know that he will never admit it in public, but obviously GMBC is reading my posts on here, since I am now 2 of 3 for off-season acquisition suggestions: Ramos and Horwitz. If he would have followed my 3rd suggestion, Conforto, the Pirates would be World-Series champs... no doubt... lol.
I would have suggested Alvarado too if I had been paying better attention. I have to say, this has been, so far, a much improved off-season from last year. Now.. go get a free agent corner OFer, of which there are maybe 2 left in the Pirates price range who could help. I am looking at you Winker.
Great writeup. From a pure administrative perspective I wish there was a way to move all the comments from the morning rundown on this topic over here as we will have 'Groundhog Day' commenting to some extent. This is an EXTREMELY minor complaint / comment. Keep up the good work.
Excellent write up. I didn't take a close look at Ortiz's final numbers until this trade, but the xFIP number cited here seems a bit telling, watching him pitch it did look like smoke and mirrors at points. Regarding Horwitz, he seems like what many of us discussed: a solid, if unspectacular addition who upgrades the position from Tellez and offers a solid floor of production with his plate discipline. Sucks that we had to lose some interesting pitchers in the process, but the prospects sound like finesse guys, and Ortiz is going to have limited value without improving the breaking stuff. Very much ok with the idea behind the trade.
Would I prefer Ortiz on our team still? Sure. But I think the strength of our starting pitching , (lest we forget the return of Oviedo ) makes this a current “win” in my book.
I do think that Hartle feels like the next Guardians black magic pitcher project
Two first rounders and a couple of intriguing guys added on to boot. Teel, Quero and Lee makes a pretty interesting trio of catching prospects for them.
My lasting memory (unfairly, perhaps) was the top first of that nightmare D-backs game where he just couldn't put anybody away. That said, he was mostly what we needed when we needed it in 2024. I wish him well.
I've said for a while they need to start trading pitching for hitting since we all know they can develop pitching and can't develop hitting. None of the departing pitchers is a huge loss. Ortiz will have a good career, sure. Michael Kennedy is far enough away from the majors that the Guardians are taking on significant risk. Hartle's ceiling is probably 7th inning reliever.
Given what trash in-house hitting development is for the Pirates, this seems reasonable.
Advanced dumpster dive move.
DKSP says what?
Bringing in Ramon Laureano on the cheap would be advanced dumpster diving (and something that I would not necessarily be opposed to... he could play LF at PNC... better than Reynolds anyway).
Posted an hour ago on CBS Sports and apparently quoting Pittsburgh Post Gazette and posted by Mike Axisa (doing all this so you know where it came from - believe or distrust is up to you).
"The Pirates are open to trading Mitch Keller, and Jared Jones is said to be "very available," according to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. Pittsburgh traded three players, including righty Luis Ortiz, to get lefty bat Spencer Horwitz on Tuesday. They're willing to continue trading pitching for bats, and Keller and especially Jones could bring back significant returns.
Keller, 28, is owed $69.5 million from 2025-28. He threw 178 almost perfectly league average innings in 2024. Jones, 23, struck out 132 batters in 121 ⅔ innings as a rookie this past season. He also missed time with injury. Jones still has five seasons of team control remaining. One thing is certain: Pittsburgh will not trade Paul Skenes. It seems everyone else is on the table."
This is what I read: “ Word of Jones’ availability came to the Post-Gazette’s attention Tuesday evening, not long before the Ortiz deal was made, meaning his trade status could have changed with another young right-hander no longer in the picture.”
This sounds a lot softer than “very available” but I guess this is the trouble with aggregators.
And for the record I’m all for a Roman Anthony for JJ trade
Ian Happ is coming home
**Sources say..***
its such a perfect fit move
Hopefully this rumor is either them getting calls and not immediately saying no in case someone wants to significantly overpay or part of a move to get a big bat and the salary savings is used to sign another starting pitcher.
My only thought is somebody has to pitch. For those who read my posts (I appreciate both of you), I am a firm believer in anybody can be traded for the right return so I absolutely think they should gauge interest, but I would be concerned if both were traded. But I also believe the Skenes Era must be maximized as winning in Pittsburgh will only get harder (even forgetting the Nutting factor) with the latest contracts being handed out.
No problem.
Me and my eephus are ready anytime, anywhere!!
Crochet to the Red Sox for 4 pretty good prospects. A Pirates comp might be something like Endy, Konnor Griffin, Branigan, and Meuth.
I see we lost Dylan Shockley and Darvon Garcia. In addition to the already mentioned de la Rosa, they also picked up Aaron McKeithan, C Randy Labuan, LHP Steve Hajjar, LHP and Joel Mendez OF all in the minor league phase
Hajjar is a name I recognize. For some reason.
I think he began his career with Montrose before going solo. Van Halen later traded David Lee Roth for him.
It seems like a good 2 players for 5 players trade.
Nobody picked Siani and we passed on our pick.
What a shocker lol
We did pick a AA pitcher from the A's in the minor league phase (Frank De La Rosa).
Stunned. the number of fits thrown for nothing
I don't recall fits, but I am glad that Siani is still in the system. We'll get to see if he can repeat the success he had in Arizona.
The most interesting thing to me is that we have four roster spots available and chose to pass. Hopefully that implies that more significant additions will be made.
No one threw a fit.
Nice job by the FO reading the market and not unnecessarily taking up 40-man spots.
Several were wringing their hands and a few gnashed their teeth as well. Glad I did not waste any time doing either. 😁😁
What an outrage! We should have taken Blake Goldsberry.
Looking at Horwitz's pre-MLB work, he's hit at every level. Per B-R, his career numbers (including college, which were some of his worst hitting years), he's .298/.400/.461 with a BB:K ratio of 9:10.
Regarding his age, he just turned 27 last month but was drafted in 2019, lost the 2020 year, and moved through the minors in 2021-2023 to make MLB debut in 2023. 27 seems old, but it seems like he went through the progression about as quickly as possible.
Excited to see what he can do.
Ben's found his Justin Turner!
He’s way better than Justin Turner was at this age.
Now I’m going to go to B-R and prepare to eat crow when I find out I’m wrong again.
Seems I was right after all. Turner was a negative WAR player through his age 26 season. Dodgers spread some of their magic pixie dust on him when he turned 29.
Ben's no pixie.
Just looking at the video makes me think that Horwitz is a guy with still a lot of upside at 27. I like this deal a LOT!
Thanks, Anthony, for including the highlights on YT. You can see that Horwitz doesn't hit Cruz missiles (though few do), so the exit velo questions make sense. The other thing I noticed is that the Jays seemed to use him mostly at 1-2 earlier in the season and then he spent time at cleanup later in the year. IKF was also mentioned as being on base when he collected hits, so I'm curious where Shelton will slot him.
I'm looking forward to watching Horwitz--I appreciate his skillset more than the big swinger who might hit moon shots but has a lot of swing-and-miss too.
I appreciate it too, but would feel much better about him if he also did it against LHP.
Makes me wonder if Hague saw a bit of himself in this player when they were in Toronto!
I hope not, Hague barely had a MLB career!
Hit Collector Jr.?
You sound like you watched a lot of games last year. Horwitz’s skillset was mostly missing from last years lineup.
I think what's important is he gets the sweet spot often. That xwOBA is looking nice, as opposed to IKF or BDLC's when acquired.
I think this is the type of trade we have all wanted for the past 5 years. Horwitz was not a highlighted player, but his numbers are strong for a first year player. Yes, he has matured late, but hopefully he continues to excel.
Like to know how this came about and whether the Pirates had already pre-set the return to the Guard's prior to them making the trade with the Jay's? And, did Hague get the ball rolling by telling Shelton or BC directly about Horwitz?
He didn’t so much mature late as have the sons of two hall of Famers blocking him at 1st and 2nd base.
I know we have some pitching but I wonder if Ferris's cousin might sign a one year deal to try and bounce back?
Only if they trade Keller.
I don't know how this works out. Dude. Looks like he can hit some and watching the Pirates last season, I kept finding myself saying, "damn, we can't hit."
Spencer, Cook, Yorke a legit corner OF, maybe I won't being saying it so much.
At least Spences time in the armpit of America was brief. No offense. Previous sentence wasn't a description of the Bucs main problem.
Another MiL signing: RH RP Wilkin Ramos, whom the Pirates lost a couple years ago in the MiL Rule 5. Throws hard, pitched well in AA after they lost him, but couldn't throw strikes in AAA this year.
So... I know that he will never admit it in public, but obviously GMBC is reading my posts on here, since I am now 2 of 3 for off-season acquisition suggestions: Ramos and Horwitz. If he would have followed my 3rd suggestion, Conforto, the Pirates would be World-Series champs... no doubt... lol.
Bummed about Conforto
I would have suggested Alvarado too if I had been paying better attention. I have to say, this has been, so far, a much improved off-season from last year. Now.. go get a free agent corner OFer, of which there are maybe 2 left in the Pirates price range who could help. I am looking at you Winker.
After getting a look at some of the metrics and what the Pirates like, I’m surprised they didn’t protect him from the minor league phase
Give us all the live arms.
Great writeup. From a pure administrative perspective I wish there was a way to move all the comments from the morning rundown on this topic over here as we will have 'Groundhog Day' commenting to some extent. This is an EXTREMELY minor complaint / comment. Keep up the good work.
Excellent write up. I didn't take a close look at Ortiz's final numbers until this trade, but the xFIP number cited here seems a bit telling, watching him pitch it did look like smoke and mirrors at points. Regarding Horwitz, he seems like what many of us discussed: a solid, if unspectacular addition who upgrades the position from Tellez and offers a solid floor of production with his plate discipline. Sucks that we had to lose some interesting pitchers in the process, but the prospects sound like finesse guys, and Ortiz is going to have limited value without improving the breaking stuff. Very much ok with the idea behind the trade.
Would I prefer Ortiz on our team still? Sure. But I think the strength of our starting pitching , (lest we forget the return of Oviedo ) makes this a current “win” in my book.
I do think that Hartle feels like the next Guardians black magic pitcher project
Goddamn that’s a haul the Pale Hose got for Crochet.
Two first rounders and a couple of intriguing guys added on to boot. Teel, Quero and Lee makes a pretty interesting trio of catching prospects for them.
And the Red Sox are looking at him more than just a 2 year rental.
Yep, and Boston’s system is still in pretty good shape even with that deal.
I think he was clearly the second best starter during the second half of the season
He finished the season very strong. His last 6 starts he had an ERA of 2.59.
My lasting memory (unfairly, perhaps) was the top first of that nightmare D-backs game where he just couldn't put anybody away. That said, he was mostly what we needed when we needed it in 2024. I wish him well.
Well said, and hopefully his 2024 landed us a solid piece.
"Sucks that we had to lose some interesting pitchers in the process"
It's the price of doing business
Is it? I don’t remember Connor Joe costing nearly as much, and he had a very similar profile the Horwitz in 21/22, only cost us Nick Garcia.
Horwitz in his rookie campaign last season was worth twice the fWAR Joe had in his best season prior to coming to Pittsburgh.
Profile might be similar, but Horwitz is more effective. Plus, he's a lefty.
Absolutely. And I pointed out why I’m ok with that.
Yessir. Ya rolls yer dice. Ya moves yer mice.