When looking at the failure of the tear down trades, and failing to build a stable of both pitchers and hitters while obviously tanking for a couple years, I strongly feel the entire baseball operations need to be overhauled. Sheltie, Cherington and their pals all need to be removed. What the Pirates do have is a generational talent in Skenes and some other nice starters in MLB or on the cusp. A competent regime could take these pieces and get them to the playoffs in a couple years. The current guys have not shown the ability to make significant progress with the Pirates. It’s time to clean house if you want to make something out of last part of Skenes’ Pirate tenure. Sadly, I believe Sheltie will be canned but most of the others will remain.
I just hope his control/command keeps improving and he holds his velocity. A very good 3 pitch mix that he could easily add a 4th with a slight variation of his fastball if the command keeps improving.
I won't be butthurt about my favorite club only getting three nods, but the reality of that minor league quality is so mid right now that the Buccos could easily slide two or three names interchangeably into the back 25-30 slots. Listicles like this with arbitrary cutoffs don't really tell you anything, of course.
The changes to the Pirates' top 30s have left me particularly cynical. They just regurgitate the previous list with new players added and graduates/traded guys dropped. The latest one, for instance, still has Brannigan 8th, Cheng 12th, Jebb 14th, White 17th and Gorski 23rd. It's like 2024 hasn't happened yet.
Right. How much do these lists mean (in the event they had any meaning) if you’re just shuttling players in and out based on a hot or cold six weeks? Or if some guys graduate? That won’t stop a savage like myself from clicking that link, mind you.
When Haines was hired, Shelton said he was chosen because they were "on the same page". So, I'd say they need to start with Shelton (actually I'd say they need to start with Cherington because it's not just what they're teaching but the talent (e.g., BLDC, Tellez) they're identifying as impact bats).
If they only replace Haines, I wouldn't expect much, especially if it's Shelton and Cherington doing the hiring.
Their strategy appears rather evident to me, they attempt to acquire potentially impactful bats. Now, where their true outcomes fall on the bell curve of possible outcomes has left a lot to be desired, and ‘you’ could probably make a broad but reasonable generalization that the likelihood of that player achieving anything more than an average season to be a low probability to begin with. They have this penchant to always make “the smartest guy in the room” move at almost all times, and it ironically makes them look extremely incompetent. There is nothing wrong with this approach; however, it needs to be blended with other roster building strategies, like actually acquiring impact players. And, it needs to be a complimentary to their main approach(es). Impact bats (and arms) can always be traded.
If Ben is acquiring guys that his analysts don't *actually* believe are impact bats just to make a move, then I'll stick with my belief that changes need to start with replacing him.
Maybe he was misled about the resources he'd have available, but after striking out on so many trades and IFA signings that would have provided low-cost talent, he's clearly not a match for a Nutting-owned team.
Looking at the hitters list is beyond depressing, pitching, health is always a concern with all of them, but I hope that Barco stays healthy, I see a solid 4 and hopefully a 3 there.
Yeah, I’m rooting hard for Barco to be healthy next year. I know Pirates have had some success signing veteran lefty pitchers, but hopefully he’ll be good enough to let Pirates use those dollars elsewhere in a couple years.
Cherrington ought to be fired just for the low state of the hitters. He flushed tens of millions of dollars on hitting prospects and has only Nick Gonzales to show for it. This is both an acquisition and development failure. Labeling this depressing is being kind. It will cost the Pirates a championship during the Skenes era.
I totally get it if you find a conversation about details to be pedantic and would rather ignore my reply or tell me to f off, but tens of millions? Not even close.
Part of the massive pitcher-hitter disparity here has to be acknowledged, and that's how much more draft resources they chose to put towards pitching.
Four hitters selected in the top three rounds out of their first three drafts. Two of them were high schoolers and one was selected because he would cut a deal so they could draft one of those high schoolers.
Look back on those '20-'22 drafts and there's really not an alternate reality where they deliver the hitters this club needed. Failure to get anything out of the teardown trades just crushed this rebuild.
Mayo, Westburg, Cowser, Kjerstad Norby... 1B, 3B, LF, RF, 2B. Isn't everyone all excited about Billy Cook? I'm not sure he can play CF, but ok... CF. That is 6 positions.
Aren’t Cowser and Westburg the only two who have made a big impact on the big league roster from that group? I thought Norby was traded. Of course, using prospects as currency also works. We don’t have much of that.
This is an evaluation of the Pirates' ability to acquire and develop players. Thus, Gonzales and Davis are hopeful at this point. But everyone on the list is a failure until proven otherwise. Adding up the list in my head I come to about $37 million. TJ is the only player of note near to the Majors and his hit tool is suspect this moment.
tryin' way too hard, bro. to each his own, but they're plenty bad enough, you don't have to negate the validity of your argument by claiming a kid they drafted a couple months ago is a failure.
The first three drafts had Nick (the only hitter they selected in 2020), Hank and White in 2021, and TJ/Brannigan in 22. It certainly appears their overall strategy leaned towards a bat first and then heavy into pitching. I’ve made comments before that they could have gotten two of Bubba, Sol, and White if they’d drafted Mayer or Lawlar instead, but both of those guys have their warts (namely, health) too.
And you’re dead on with the trades. In an alternate reality, they flip Marte for Corbin Carroll and JT for Luis Gil and Oswald Peraza. We’d be walking in pretty tall cotton then.
I even have a hard time passing a ton of blame for Nick and Hank.
They drafted Gonzales about a year before baseball collectively realized this sort of swing just doesn't work. He's arguably been the best of his type, and was thought to be all the rage early on, but these dudes - Hiura, Downs, Kieboom, etc - just can't hit big league pitching. No other R1 hitter in 2020 has really done shit, either.
Hank is possibly another case of pretty firmly the best college hitter available who also might just not have a swing that works against big league arms. Another timing issue, just not a draft that has proven to deliver the kind of bat they needed.
I know you can twist yourself in knots with individual rationalizations that miss the forest, but they just weren't gonna get the reinforcements they needed at the time they needed them with these classes.
Doesn’t a lot of this jive with NH’s rebuild and not getting a whole lot for the pieces on hand? And as a result, that version took a good bit longer to break through (much of which was due to hitting big on veteran pickups). Sigh.
Huntington's teardown trades largely focused on post-prospect hype dudes close to the majors who could help soon but maybe not with huge upside, Cherington on pre-hype dudes a million miles away with upside but who wouldn't help for years.
Yes, in a nutshell the problem hasn't been the drafts but how little we've gotten out of trades (and from IFAs). A team isn't likely to contend when having to rely almost entirely on the draft to provide talent.
When looking at the failure of the tear down trades, and failing to build a stable of both pitchers and hitters while obviously tanking for a couple years, I strongly feel the entire baseball operations need to be overhauled. Sheltie, Cherington and their pals all need to be removed. What the Pirates do have is a generational talent in Skenes and some other nice starters in MLB or on the cusp. A competent regime could take these pieces and get them to the playoffs in a couple years. The current guys have not shown the ability to make significant progress with the Pirates. It’s time to clean house if you want to make something out of last part of Skenes’ Pirate tenure. Sadly, I believe Sheltie will be canned but most of the others will remain.
Mel, you've convinced me on Carlton Banks Reed! Get that man up the lists.
I just hope his control/command keeps improving and he holds his velocity. A very good 3 pitch mix that he could easily add a 4th with a slight variation of his fastball if the command keeps improving.
Think he's pitching Wednesday. Will be the second time I've seen him live. Interested in seeing if I notice anything different from the first time.
BA out with their last Top 100 update.
https://www.baseballamerica.com/rankings/2024-top-100-prospects/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=new-top-100-prospects&_bhlid=f896c0daa5dfabbb5e76dedbb14faff5630bae5a
I won't be butthurt about my favorite club only getting three nods, but the reality of that minor league quality is so mid right now that the Buccos could easily slide two or three names interchangeably into the back 25-30 slots. Listicles like this with arbitrary cutoffs don't really tell you anything, of course.
"listicles" that made me chuckle
Apart from the inherent problems, I don't think BA does as good a job as they used to.
feels like they might be optimizing for engagement?
i don't know what doing like four in-season list updates without many/any actual updates on the scouting reports gets you other than clicks.
The changes to the Pirates' top 30s have left me particularly cynical. They just regurgitate the previous list with new players added and graduates/traded guys dropped. The latest one, for instance, still has Brannigan 8th, Cheng 12th, Jebb 14th, White 17th and Gorski 23rd. It's like 2024 hasn't happened yet.
Right. How much do these lists mean (in the event they had any meaning) if you’re just shuttling players in and out based on a hot or cold six weeks? Or if some guys graduate? That won’t stop a savage like myself from clicking that link, mind you.
guilty as charged myself!
On the surface the hitting just isn’t good enough. But I wonder how it compares to other organizations?
Currently Pirates are 21st in MLB in runs scored. I would have to think the MilLB teams are even worse.
Time for wholesale changes in this area for entire organization starting at Haines.
When Haines was hired, Shelton said he was chosen because they were "on the same page". So, I'd say they need to start with Shelton (actually I'd say they need to start with Cherington because it's not just what they're teaching but the talent (e.g., BLDC, Tellez) they're identifying as impact bats).
If they only replace Haines, I wouldn't expect much, especially if it's Shelton and Cherington doing the hiring.
Their strategy appears rather evident to me, they attempt to acquire potentially impactful bats. Now, where their true outcomes fall on the bell curve of possible outcomes has left a lot to be desired, and ‘you’ could probably make a broad but reasonable generalization that the likelihood of that player achieving anything more than an average season to be a low probability to begin with. They have this penchant to always make “the smartest guy in the room” move at almost all times, and it ironically makes them look extremely incompetent. There is nothing wrong with this approach; however, it needs to be blended with other roster building strategies, like actually acquiring impact players. And, it needs to be a complimentary to their main approach(es). Impact bats (and arms) can always be traded.
This is one where I genuinely have a hard time blaming the analyst types, as if they *actually* believed those two were impact bats.
Anyone who has ever worked for a company or boss with high expectations and little budget allowance knows what's likely going on here.
If Ben is acquiring guys that his analysts don't *actually* believe are impact bats just to make a move, then I'll stick with my belief that changes need to start with replacing him.
Maybe he was misled about the resources he'd have available, but after striking out on so many trades and IFA signings that would have provided low-cost talent, he's clearly not a match for a Nutting-owned team.
Looking at the hitters list is beyond depressing, pitching, health is always a concern with all of them, but I hope that Barco stays healthy, I see a solid 4 and hopefully a 3 there.
Yeah, I’m rooting hard for Barco to be healthy next year. I know Pirates have had some success signing veteran lefty pitchers, but hopefully he’ll be good enough to let Pirates use those dollars elsewhere in a couple years.
Cherrington ought to be fired just for the low state of the hitters. He flushed tens of millions of dollars on hitting prospects and has only Nick Gonzales to show for it. This is both an acquisition and development failure. Labeling this depressing is being kind. It will cost the Pirates a championship during the Skenes era.
I totally get it if you find a conversation about details to be pedantic and would rather ignore my reply or tell me to f off, but tens of millions? Not even close.
Part of the massive pitcher-hitter disparity here has to be acknowledged, and that's how much more draft resources they chose to put towards pitching.
Four hitters selected in the top three rounds out of their first three drafts. Two of them were high schoolers and one was selected because he would cut a deal so they could draft one of those high schoolers.
Look back on those '20-'22 drafts and there's really not an alternate reality where they deliver the hitters this club needed. Failure to get anything out of the teardown trades just crushed this rebuild.
I don't know. The Orioles have fielded almost an entire major-league team from those 2 drafts.
"almost" doin' a lot of work here!
Mayo, Westburg, Cowser, Kjerstad Norby... 1B, 3B, LF, RF, 2B. Isn't everyone all excited about Billy Cook? I'm not sure he can play CF, but ok... CF. That is 6 positions.
Aren’t Cowser and Westburg the only two who have made a big impact on the big league roster from that group? I thought Norby was traded. Of course, using prospects as currency also works. We don’t have much of that.
Billy Cook is the next Jared Triolo.
Off the top of my head: Tens of Millions:
$5.5 -- Gonzales
$6.5 -- Davis
$1.5 -- White
$.27 -- Bishop
$7.2 -- TJ
$1.6 -- Jebb
$6.5 -- Griffin
$2.5 -- Sanford
$2.0 -- Brazobahn
$1.2 -- Feliz
$.84 -- Rivero
$2.35 -- Polanco
$1.2 -- Des los Santos
$.9 -- Blanco
This is an evaluation of the Pirates' ability to acquire and develop players. Thus, Gonzales and Davis are hopeful at this point. But everyone on the list is a failure until proven otherwise. Adding up the list in my head I come to about $37 million. TJ is the only player of note near to the Majors and his hit tool is suspect this moment.
tryin' way too hard, bro. to each his own, but they're plenty bad enough, you don't have to negate the validity of your argument by claiming a kid they drafted a couple months ago is a failure.
Hear you on the early returns for Polanco and de los Santos, tho. Those are big numbers to swing and miss with on the international market.
The first three drafts had Nick (the only hitter they selected in 2020), Hank and White in 2021, and TJ/Brannigan in 22. It certainly appears their overall strategy leaned towards a bat first and then heavy into pitching. I’ve made comments before that they could have gotten two of Bubba, Sol, and White if they’d drafted Mayer or Lawlar instead, but both of those guys have their warts (namely, health) too.
And you’re dead on with the trades. In an alternate reality, they flip Marte for Corbin Carroll and JT for Luis Gil and Oswald Peraza. We’d be walking in pretty tall cotton then.
I even have a hard time passing a ton of blame for Nick and Hank.
They drafted Gonzales about a year before baseball collectively realized this sort of swing just doesn't work. He's arguably been the best of his type, and was thought to be all the rage early on, but these dudes - Hiura, Downs, Kieboom, etc - just can't hit big league pitching. No other R1 hitter in 2020 has really done shit, either.
Hank is possibly another case of pretty firmly the best college hitter available who also might just not have a swing that works against big league arms. Another timing issue, just not a draft that has proven to deliver the kind of bat they needed.
I know you can twist yourself in knots with individual rationalizations that miss the forest, but they just weren't gonna get the reinforcements they needed at the time they needed them with these classes.
Doesn’t a lot of this jive with NH’s rebuild and not getting a whole lot for the pieces on hand? And as a result, that version took a good bit longer to break through (much of which was due to hitting big on veteran pickups). Sigh.
Bingo. Completely different approaches, too.
Huntington's teardown trades largely focused on post-prospect hype dudes close to the majors who could help soon but maybe not with huge upside, Cherington on pre-hype dudes a million miles away with upside but who wouldn't help for years.
Baseball is hard, maybe.
Yes, in a nutshell the problem hasn't been the drafts but how little we've gotten out of trades (and from IFAs). A team isn't likely to contend when having to rely almost entirely on the draft to provide talent.