They need two SPs and preferably one of them a LHSP. They also need a competent 1B and a platoon partner for Suwinski (Bellinger would be nearly ideal but obviously they're not getting him). Dylan Carlson would make some sense.
Like BnP posted, I am late to the party. My thoughts: Unfortunately when you read season outlooks EVERYBODY needs starting pitching. Our desired #2 starter signing is some top level contenders need for a 3 or 4. I do favor the approach of signing a starter higher up the food chain to a 3 year deal which will be pricy (for the Bucs) and then the annual turn around candidate (Severino?) as well. I like Jack but still cringe every time he is listed as a full time starter. If they plan on catching Hank then I feel it needs to be a full time job share with Endy and if that causes pain at times with his defense then so be it. Force the final decision on his viability as a catcher and quit dancing around it. While it seems unfair I believe Delay still has options but deserves better. With Cutch around one more year (and I am in favor of this) it makes it harder as having Endy/Hank at DH on their non-catching days just seems too logical. One thing to consider when forcing the Hank at catcher narrative, at some point I truly believe (for those of us who believe Pirates can someday win) the Pirates will have to trade a key player from their MLB roster to get that other key player to fill a hole (Top level starter, slugger, or something else). If Endy and Hank are both seen as viable starting catchers that is enviable depth and viable trade bait.
I am glad Andujar landed in Oakland. I don't envision him being some star but admittedly have a soft spot for players who tear up AAA and don't get a new extended shot... did he actually learn and fix something? I also had Perdomo squarely in the 'Pirates sign him to a 2 year minor league contract' bucket. If he is out all of 2024, claiming him seems risky.
You know, my first thought was, "They got Sabol?!". Then I figured that wasn't likely, though Giants could spare him. My instant second thought was the man that does it all...
He's getting paid like a 7th inning reliever on a decent team.
Manager is either the most undervalued asset in the entire game and this sets off a trend of paying them what they're worth orrrrrrrr they JUST.DON'T.MATTER.
Especially if they win, kinda feel bad for the Brewers. They offered him $5.5 a year so they didn't go cheap, Cubs just beat them up with their wallet.
I was just about to post something about this--one of the more bizarre hirings I can recall. I think of Counsell as being one of the best but Ross as above average. I guess when money is no consequence, even a relatively small upgrade at manager is worth it.
With our young catching, I wish there was a plausible way we could hire Ross but I don't see a path to that happening.
Not sure of Ross was expecting this big of a change right now, but maybe we could entice him as some made up 'catching consultant' for a year or something while he gets his feet under him and decides where he wants to take his life to next
Looking forward to lots of good offseason discussion about potential moves and actual moves. I'm fully on board with all who have said the top priority should be two quality SP. I'd also like another back-of-the-pen reliever as insurance against injury and/or for those games when our top guys aren't available. This postseason (as does every postseason in recent years) showed how important it is to have more than a few guys that you trust with high-leverage situations. Plus, if we hope to see Bednar in top form in October, we need to keep him fresher than we have the last couple of seasons.
As for bats, everything hinges on how they plan to use Davis. If they're serious about him sharing time at catcher, then I'd be happy with an elite defender in CF with Suwinski moving to RF while leaving 1B to a Triolo/Rodriguez platoon. If Davis remains in RF, then the priority should be a lefty power hitter to platoon at 1B.
If the Pirates are going to sign a pitcher in free agency, I would much prefer that they use that warchest that they should have and sign one real pitcher under the age of 31, rather than trying to cobble together some rotation with some combination of a couple 7-million-dollar-a-year retreads or even a 12-million dollar a year "middle of the rotation" crafty lefty. Bring in one pitcher and spend the money to bring in a top-notch pitcher who could go in the 1 or 2 spot in the rotation: Yamamota, Imanaga, Montgomery, or maybe even Snell (although I think he will be overpriced).
And please... no more Santana.... no more hoping to squeeze one more year out of a bargain basement 5-million-dollar-a-year retread. If need be, trade some prospects and get a couple good players in the bullpen and at 1B.
Gray is probably the only older pitcher and "middle of the rotation" guy that I would consider for the right price (but there are probably a lot of GMs saying the same thing, and he will be overbid). My concern is that the Pirates get tied up with too much money in declining players occupying depth roles and do not have money under the budget to extend key pieces for a longer window of competitiveness. It was why I opposed the idea of signing "middle of the rotation" pitchers before.
The Depth has to come from the system. If it does not, the Pirates are doomed whether or not they acquire some #3 or 4 starter in free agency.. They need to start assembling guys who move the needle toward 92 wins and not be content with guys who only serve to keep the needle from falling back to 100 losses.
Signing a Gray or a Snell won’t negate an extension to Keller if that’s what you’re getting at. And anyway, “middle of the rotation” which is basically 2-3 WAR, would be second to Keller. I could get down with someone like that.
It shouldn't affect Keller, but I am thinking more of 2-3 years hence when a number of guys should be progressing through arbitration. I just think signing free agent depth starters to 2 or 3 year deals is not very helpful to a small-market team. Most of this type is hopelessly overpriced and can quickly become lost money if the elbow goes. Better off with a cheap reclamation project on a one-year deal and hope for the best. Now a 5-year deal for a guy like Montgomery or Imanaga... that I is where I would look to really improve the team. As I say, if they cannot get depth out of their system and have to pay market prices for fill out their rotation with mid 30s mediocre pitching, they are doomed.
Doesn’t a 5 year deal to Montgomery have the same issues with guys coming through arb as a 3 year deal to Gray? If not more of one, since Montgomery’s deal is longer. And Gray is hardly a “depth” guy considering he put up more WAR than anyone on Pgh’s staff. Even if last year is an outlier, he was still quite good in 21-22.
Of course they’ll need quality depth to come internally, but that certainly didn’t come to fruition this year. If it doesn’t, they’re likely doomed yes...but I think waiting for depth and all internal options to work out and THEN making a move doesn’t work either.
If you’re worried about elbows, hell man...that’s a worry with any arm at any age.
Pick the right guy and sign him to a multi-year deal; it’s the only way you’ll get any sort of discount. I’m not about overpaying on these one-year deals.
Imanaga and Rodriguez are the 2 lefties I think they can realistically go for one of. Both should be in the 5 year $80+/- million price range if others don't out bid. There's several RH pitchers that might go for less in either or years and dollars. One significant signing along with a Keller extension would go a long way for fans, especially if they add a bounce back arm or 2 after.
If they front load a significant free agent pitcher it might give them a leg up on competition and give them a chance to extend some of their prospects if they become good mlb players.
I like this a lot as its probably pretty realistic. What do you think for arms? I would like a LHSP, but feel like flaherty/gibson/lugo and VV is a fairly decent idea of what is realistic for the rotation.
If davis isnt going to catch, then still probably bring in a defense first CF and can cycle him and jack through RF/CF
I'd like a lefty starter as well, I think we'll get one. We might have better luck trading. I hope they move fast if the have a specific target on RH starters, still holding out hope on Shota but don't think it's realistic as far as lefties go.
Barrosa is a defensive first CF that switch hits. I've read where he's one of if not their best defensive outfielder. Not a lot of power but walks around the same rate he strikes out. He is very short, on their 40 man and is only 22. I think he played the entire year in triple A but not sure. At the very least he could end up being a good 4th or 5th outfielder do to his speed and defense.
Hopefully he would be an excellent defensive CF that has speed and gets on base. Maybe not a full time regular but has the making of a quality backup on a good team. Not much in the power department but is a switch hitter. He's definitely short but has good walk and k numbers. He's held up in the minors and keeps putting up better numbers as he advanced through triple A.
Yep, above all. This team should, at long last, be aiming at excellence, not at temporarily papering over a problem with some guy just playing out the string. Setting the bar low because they’re just the pitiful little Pirates needs to become a thing of the past.
Let's be honest. In 2022 everyone looked forward to seeing Endy in the majors for his bat. I think in order for us to see that, I would like to see him catch less. Maybe catch 3 times a week and play first 3 times a week. We will be fine at catch with Delay and possibly Henry. We have several ok options to platoon at first with Triolo, Joe and again possibly Henry Davis.
I'm not sure any fans should've been led to believe that platitudes for Endy's bat were in any context other than that of a catcher.
Jonah Heim, the guy we just watched hoist the trophy, is about what we could reasonably expect peak Endy to look like and that means he's a star when catching yet replacement level anywhere else.
Same applies with the inane logic of Triolo playing 1b. Dude road the coattails of a .440 babip to get his 118 wRC+. He's a plus defender at 2b and moving him to 1st probably yields a replacement level player.
I’ve never understood the “Triolo to first” crowd. As Mel said, I think he’s best as a super utility, with maybe a chance to win the 2B job over Peguro. But if he doesn’t, it ain’t like Triolo will atrophy on the bench either. He’ll get time.
So much of this depends on what they do with Hank. If they decide to commit to him full time in RF, then I’d be in favor of getting a lefty bat at first to platoon with Joe, and Cutch getting most of the DH reps. And then I’d also like a good fielding CF to platoon with Jack (Michael A Taylor maybe?).
And I’d like them to spend most of their dough on arms like Sonny Gray, Montgomery, etc. although that is as unlikely as me sprouting a full head of hair in the morning.
Triolo is best used as a super utility, until he proves that his babip wasn't just luck. I do think he has earned the chance to take the 2nd base job. I also think he'll lower his K rate and increase his slugging but not to the extreme he showed in September.
Good dude to have in the org but I just can't get past the reality that they gotta figure out how to add 15-18 WAR just to sniff contention and another year of tryouts for a 1-1.5 WAR second basemen just takes one more position out of the mix for where it's gonna come from.
He does have a hell of a triple slash line over his last 30 games, with a strikeout rate higher than ideal. He's arguably the best defensive 2nd basemen they have currently on the 40 man. If his bat plays at 80% of his September, he's an All Star and a 4 plus WAR.
Again the job isn't his, but his performance should give him an opportunity to stake claim come spring.
Plus one for the last sentiment. As Catch noted, a healthy dose of his production is boosted by batted ball luck and he had a rough K%. Maybe he’s a late bloomer, and I think he’s ultimately a utility guy who can hit a little.
My main concern is he really looked gassed this year catching as much as he did. I don't think it is as much of the physical grind of being behind the plate, but the mental grind. It appeared he worked his tail off before each game with the pitchers and probably did studying as well. Hitting was such an after-thought, he never got it going. I would like the Pirates to now put a priority on getting his bat going as well.
Every year he played in the minors, only 50 to 60% of his starts were at catcher. I think there is something to that why he was hitting so well. Just guessing his legs were fresh and could spend more time on hitting as opposed to working with pitching, but who knows. Whatever it takes to getting him hitting well again, I am all for. If not, there is little difference between him and Delay.
That, too, I think is a function of how fast they pushed him. Extremely rare for a kid to be inserted as a big league starting catcher before his 23rd birthday AND Endy missed an entire year of dev due to the pandemic. I could be off but if memory serves most catchers are very limited through the low minors and build up their stamina as they continue developing in the upper levels.
endy is 5'11 and has never played first so thats a pretty dumb idea. nothing about his bat seemed better than an average catcher at any point last year, including in AAA. endy played 2nd and outfield in the minors when he didnt catch. he can DH a few days a week.
Thank you for straightening me out on my dumb idea and I like your reasoning. You are correct that Endy has never played first base unless you want to count the games he played first base in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 and the games that I saw him play in person.
Also when I made the point that his hitting fell off in 2023, thanks for straightening me out again on that dumb idea of thinking he was once a good hitter. Because hitting at every level and finishing the last 3 months of 2022 with a homer every 12 at bats and a .378 batting average during that time is nothing more than an average catcher.
About 40 games total in the minors in his career in the minors. And about 25 in the OF and another 20 at second. That’s more than three.
It’s funny that this organization made a point of making Endy more diverse defensively, and didn’t think of it with Hank until he was basically on the doorstep of the majors.
Hank got so little playing time in general in MiLB. Kid played 122 games total in MiLB in 3 seasons. Endy got 356 through 5 seasons. Pedro Alvarez—who I recall fans complaining was "rushed" to the bigs—got 329 games in 4 seasons. Bryan Reynolds got 278 games coming out of Vanderbilt through 4 seasons. It's really striking how little time he got due to injuries and just the speed to promotion.
They’ve really bungled his development. I cannot imagine a guy catching his entire life and then getting a dozen games in the outfield at AAA and the getting thrust into that position at the bigs. It’s crazy.
While I understand that last years injury not only hindered his development behind the plate AND their ability to decide if he could stick there, they should have taken much of this year to make that decision. Let him catch through June and if he’s as bad as they seem to think, move him to the OF for July/August with a chance at a September call up if he looks like he’s making progress out there. Why the rush?
Their major league roles seemed very backwards from the way they were prepared in the minors. I thought Endy might have hit more if they didn't have him catching everyday while I thought Henry might have hit more if they didn't stick him in right field where he was failing defensively.
On a side note: Thanks for guiding me through my meltdown a few nights ago about the former Pirate that just got claimed by the A's. I haven't mentioned him on here again since. You can send me a counseling bill in the mail. :)
One thing you are 100% correct on that I didn't give you credit for is you can't be scared to lose players. I sometimes look at what we have invested in the player and forget the goal is to put together the best team on the field.
Haha, it’s so easy to get attached to players. Because on this site and others in the past, we’re following them far before they reach the majors.
As fans of this team who has seen many players blossom after leaving, it’s a common affliction to be nervous parting ways with players. Cole, Musgrove, Glasnow...I have to stop or I’ll get depressed! So the end result is, we get worried when anyone leaves.
The Endy/Hank thing is odd. Maybe pedigree had something to do with it? When they drafted Hank, Endy was in the middle of his breakout but it was still at low A. So I think Hank was always going to get every opportunity to catch...or maybe that’s what they thought till they saw him catch. And then they didn’t know what to do. This management team seems to have a plan...until things don’t go to plan and then they get lost. It doesn’t inspire much confidence.
Would y'all trade Suwinski, Termarr and Luis Ortiz for Luis Robert Jr?
Thoughts on trading Bednar while his value is high because he looked pretty shaky out there post-ASB?
If the right players are coming back, anyone should be on the table. It would have to be a haul though.
shaky compared to who?
Bednar
They need two SPs and preferably one of them a LHSP. They also need a competent 1B and a platoon partner for Suwinski (Bellinger would be nearly ideal but obviously they're not getting him). Dylan Carlson would make some sense.
All these managers being hired and nobody wanted to poach Shelton. Disappointing.
nor Kelly
Counsell is known for his in-game managing. How much you wanna bet that subject was never discussed by BC when he hired Shelton.
Why do I have the feeling we are going to overpay for James Paxton, then watch him make 5 great starts then get injured.
The Pittsburgh Pirates overpaying is a concern that has literally never crossed my mind.
If we gave Hill $8 million, I can see them giving Paxton $10 million, but you're totally right lol
But if hes not injured....
Like BnP posted, I am late to the party. My thoughts: Unfortunately when you read season outlooks EVERYBODY needs starting pitching. Our desired #2 starter signing is some top level contenders need for a 3 or 4. I do favor the approach of signing a starter higher up the food chain to a 3 year deal which will be pricy (for the Bucs) and then the annual turn around candidate (Severino?) as well. I like Jack but still cringe every time he is listed as a full time starter. If they plan on catching Hank then I feel it needs to be a full time job share with Endy and if that causes pain at times with his defense then so be it. Force the final decision on his viability as a catcher and quit dancing around it. While it seems unfair I believe Delay still has options but deserves better. With Cutch around one more year (and I am in favor of this) it makes it harder as having Endy/Hank at DH on their non-catching days just seems too logical. One thing to consider when forcing the Hank at catcher narrative, at some point I truly believe (for those of us who believe Pirates can someday win) the Pirates will have to trade a key player from their MLB roster to get that other key player to fill a hole (Top level starter, slugger, or something else). If Endy and Hank are both seen as viable starting catchers that is enviable depth and viable trade bait.
Andujar and Perdomo both claimed off waivers. Yerry DLS outrighted, but I think he'll just become a MiL FA . . . uh . . . about seven minutes ago.
I am glad Andujar landed in Oakland. I don't envision him being some star but admittedly have a soft spot for players who tear up AAA and don't get a new extended shot... did he actually learn and fix something? I also had Perdomo squarely in the 'Pirates sign him to a 2 year minor league contract' bucket. If he is out all of 2024, claiming him seems risky.
They'll probably place him on waivers later then sign him to a minor league contract if he goes unclaimed, sneaky bass terds.(Perdomo)
Yeah this is one I'm going to watch to see how the Braves play this. They are so stacked, they could afford to keep him on 40-man over the winter
probably not a big deal for them, as it would be for Pirates.
The fargin ice holes!
I got here too late. Vibrant comment section today.
Your favorite utility catcher is now a Guardian!
You know, my first thought was, "They got Sabol?!". Then I figured that wasn't likely, though Giants could spare him. My instant second thought was the man that does it all...
Dang, Cubs paying Counsell $40 million over 5 years, kicking Ross to the curb.
That's a bomb and probably will change the landscape of managerial hires in the near future
He's getting paid like a 7th inning reliever on a decent team.
Manager is either the most undervalued asset in the entire game and this sets off a trend of paying them what they're worth orrrrrrrr they JUST.DON'T.MATTER.
Option B
Especially if they win, kinda feel bad for the Brewers. They offered him $5.5 a year so they didn't go cheap, Cubs just beat them up with their wallet.
Wow!
I was just about to post something about this--one of the more bizarre hirings I can recall. I think of Counsell as being one of the best but Ross as above average. I guess when money is no consequence, even a relatively small upgrade at manager is worth it.
With our young catching, I wish there was a plausible way we could hire Ross but I don't see a path to that happening.
Not sure of Ross was expecting this big of a change right now, but maybe we could entice him as some made up 'catching consultant' for a year or something while he gets his feet under him and decides where he wants to take his life to next
That's a good idea about Ross, he probably could help with the young catchers and know some weaknesses of a division opponent.
Looking forward to lots of good offseason discussion about potential moves and actual moves. I'm fully on board with all who have said the top priority should be two quality SP. I'd also like another back-of-the-pen reliever as insurance against injury and/or for those games when our top guys aren't available. This postseason (as does every postseason in recent years) showed how important it is to have more than a few guys that you trust with high-leverage situations. Plus, if we hope to see Bednar in top form in October, we need to keep him fresher than we have the last couple of seasons.
As for bats, everything hinges on how they plan to use Davis. If they're serious about him sharing time at catcher, then I'd be happy with an elite defender in CF with Suwinski moving to RF while leaving 1B to a Triolo/Rodriguez platoon. If Davis remains in RF, then the priority should be a lefty power hitter to platoon at 1B.
If the Pirates are going to sign a pitcher in free agency, I would much prefer that they use that warchest that they should have and sign one real pitcher under the age of 31, rather than trying to cobble together some rotation with some combination of a couple 7-million-dollar-a-year retreads or even a 12-million dollar a year "middle of the rotation" crafty lefty. Bring in one pitcher and spend the money to bring in a top-notch pitcher who could go in the 1 or 2 spot in the rotation: Yamamota, Imanaga, Montgomery, or maybe even Snell (although I think he will be overpriced).
And please... no more Santana.... no more hoping to squeeze one more year out of a bargain basement 5-million-dollar-a-year retread. If need be, trade some prospects and get a couple good players in the bullpen and at 1B.
What about a shorter term higher dollar for a guy who is a little older like Gray?
This is the way.
Gray is probably the only older pitcher and "middle of the rotation" guy that I would consider for the right price (but there are probably a lot of GMs saying the same thing, and he will be overbid). My concern is that the Pirates get tied up with too much money in declining players occupying depth roles and do not have money under the budget to extend key pieces for a longer window of competitiveness. It was why I opposed the idea of signing "middle of the rotation" pitchers before.
The Depth has to come from the system. If it does not, the Pirates are doomed whether or not they acquire some #3 or 4 starter in free agency.. They need to start assembling guys who move the needle toward 92 wins and not be content with guys who only serve to keep the needle from falling back to 100 losses.
Signing a Gray or a Snell won’t negate an extension to Keller if that’s what you’re getting at. And anyway, “middle of the rotation” which is basically 2-3 WAR, would be second to Keller. I could get down with someone like that.
It shouldn't affect Keller, but I am thinking more of 2-3 years hence when a number of guys should be progressing through arbitration. I just think signing free agent depth starters to 2 or 3 year deals is not very helpful to a small-market team. Most of this type is hopelessly overpriced and can quickly become lost money if the elbow goes. Better off with a cheap reclamation project on a one-year deal and hope for the best. Now a 5-year deal for a guy like Montgomery or Imanaga... that I is where I would look to really improve the team. As I say, if they cannot get depth out of their system and have to pay market prices for fill out their rotation with mid 30s mediocre pitching, they are doomed.
Doesn’t a 5 year deal to Montgomery have the same issues with guys coming through arb as a 3 year deal to Gray? If not more of one, since Montgomery’s deal is longer. And Gray is hardly a “depth” guy considering he put up more WAR than anyone on Pgh’s staff. Even if last year is an outlier, he was still quite good in 21-22.
Of course they’ll need quality depth to come internally, but that certainly didn’t come to fruition this year. If it doesn’t, they’re likely doomed yes...but I think waiting for depth and all internal options to work out and THEN making a move doesn’t work either.
If you’re worried about elbows, hell man...that’s a worry with any arm at any age.
Pick the right guy and sign him to a multi-year deal; it’s the only way you’ll get any sort of discount. I’m not about overpaying on these one-year deals.
Imanaga and Rodriguez are the 2 lefties I think they can realistically go for one of. Both should be in the 5 year $80+/- million price range if others don't out bid. There's several RH pitchers that might go for less in either or years and dollars. One significant signing along with a Keller extension would go a long way for fans, especially if they add a bounce back arm or 2 after.
If they front load a significant free agent pitcher it might give them a leg up on competition and give them a chance to extend some of their prospects if they become good mlb players.
Love this breakdown, and hope they pretty much follow this plan to a T!
Here's a not going to happen budget oriented approach.
CF, make a trade with Arizona for Jorge Barrosa.
1st, make a trade with the Dodgers for Michael Busch.
SP's, sign 2 or 3 bounce back guys on 1 or 2 year deals, maybe have an option for an extra year.
If a good deal presents itself get a high leverage arm for the bullpen (preferably a lefty)
C, Endy backup Delay
3rd, Hayes backup Triolo
SS, Cruz backup Liover
2nd, Triolo, Gonzalez, Bae or Liover
1st, Busch backup Triolo or Joe
LF, Reynolds backup Joe or other
CF, Barrosa or Bae, Suwinski if the others falter
RF, Suwinski backup Joe or other
DH, Cutch
This takes GMBC at having Davis catch, he'd start the year in Indy.
I like this a lot as its probably pretty realistic. What do you think for arms? I would like a LHSP, but feel like flaherty/gibson/lugo and VV is a fairly decent idea of what is realistic for the rotation.
If davis isnt going to catch, then still probably bring in a defense first CF and can cycle him and jack through RF/CF
I'd like a lefty starter as well, I think we'll get one. We might have better luck trading. I hope they move fast if the have a specific target on RH starters, still holding out hope on Shota but don't think it's realistic as far as lefties go.
Barrosa is a defensive first CF that switch hits. I've read where he's one of if not their best defensive outfielder. Not a lot of power but walks around the same rate he strikes out. He is very short, on their 40 man and is only 22. I think he played the entire year in triple A but not sure. At the very least he could end up being a good 4th or 5th outfielder do to his speed and defense.
Barrosa is 5'5 right? Think he'd hold up?
Hopefully he would be an excellent defensive CF that has speed and gets on base. Maybe not a full time regular but has the making of a quality backup on a good team. Not much in the power department but is a switch hitter. He's definitely short but has good walk and k numbers. He's held up in the minors and keeps putting up better numbers as he advanced through triple A.
Tarik skubal would be a fun add though im sure out of the range of prospects that they will give up
He'd be more expensive in a trade than Keller.
Are we going to get some winter league reports?
I thought I read on X over the weekend that Ortiz had a start and Cruz is 100% healthy and wants to play this winter.
Would love to know this info!
What I think they'll do...
Sign Michael A. Taylor to platoon with Jack in CF
Sign Seth Lugo or Michael Wacha
Sign Wade Miley.
Re-sign the remains of Andrew McCutchen to DH
Make an Adam LaRoche Mike Gonzalez type of trade for a 1bmen. Plan B - sign Santana.
Sign a BP arm we've never heard of
Have an open competition in ST with Contreras, Ortiz, Priester & Falter for the 5th spot in the rotation.
Finish with a worse record than 2023 and not understand why.
I think Bednar and Priester lands Coby Mayo from Baltimore. Hurts to lose Bednar but Mayo's at least played ~230 innings at 1B in MiLB.
Unfortunately, I think that is the best prediction of Pirates' off-season moves that I can imagine.
Lefty McThump!
hahaha nice
Bring back Santana for 1B, cheap, good D, vet presence.
Righty CF with good D to platoon with Suwinski & occasionally kick him to a corner. Is Harrison Bader any good at this point?
Need several SPs. Wade Miley, Jack Flaherty, Michael Wacha, Luis Severino all interest me to varying degrees.
Pirates need 2 SP and 1 1B or OF middle of the order power bat.
Preferably one of the SP’s is a crafty LH veteran in the Liriano mold and the other is a power RH type.
The bat must be a legitimate power threat in any park.
I personally hope two of the three are FA’s, and the other is traded for. And again 2 of 3 should be under control for more than 1 season.
Let’s get players who are ascending rather than descending this winter BC.
“legitimate power threat”
Yep, above all. This team should, at long last, be aiming at excellence, not at temporarily papering over a problem with some guy just playing out the string. Setting the bar low because they’re just the pitiful little Pirates needs to become a thing of the past.
Ditto!
Let's be honest. In 2022 everyone looked forward to seeing Endy in the majors for his bat. I think in order for us to see that, I would like to see him catch less. Maybe catch 3 times a week and play first 3 times a week. We will be fine at catch with Delay and possibly Henry. We have several ok options to platoon at first with Triolo, Joe and again possibly Henry Davis.
I'm not sure any fans should've been led to believe that platitudes for Endy's bat were in any context other than that of a catcher.
Jonah Heim, the guy we just watched hoist the trophy, is about what we could reasonably expect peak Endy to look like and that means he's a star when catching yet replacement level anywhere else.
Same applies with the inane logic of Triolo playing 1b. Dude road the coattails of a .440 babip to get his 118 wRC+. He's a plus defender at 2b and moving him to 1st probably yields a replacement level player.
I’ve never understood the “Triolo to first” crowd. As Mel said, I think he’s best as a super utility, with maybe a chance to win the 2B job over Peguro. But if he doesn’t, it ain’t like Triolo will atrophy on the bench either. He’ll get time.
So much of this depends on what they do with Hank. If they decide to commit to him full time in RF, then I’d be in favor of getting a lefty bat at first to platoon with Joe, and Cutch getting most of the DH reps. And then I’d also like a good fielding CF to platoon with Jack (Michael A Taylor maybe?).
And I’d like them to spend most of their dough on arms like Sonny Gray, Montgomery, etc. although that is as unlikely as me sprouting a full head of hair in the morning.
Triolo is best used as a super utility, until he proves that his babip wasn't just luck. I do think he has earned the chance to take the 2nd base job. I also think he'll lower his K rate and increase his slugging but not to the extreme he showed in September.
Good dude to have in the org but I just can't get past the reality that they gotta figure out how to add 15-18 WAR just to sniff contention and another year of tryouts for a 1-1.5 WAR second basemen just takes one more position out of the mix for where it's gonna come from.
He does have a hell of a triple slash line over his last 30 games, with a strikeout rate higher than ideal. He's arguably the best defensive 2nd basemen they have currently on the 40 man. If his bat plays at 80% of his September, he's an All Star and a 4 plus WAR.
Again the job isn't his, but his performance should give him an opportunity to stake claim come spring.
Plus one for the last sentiment. As Catch noted, a healthy dose of his production is boosted by batted ball luck and he had a rough K%. Maybe he’s a late bloomer, and I think he’s ultimately a utility guy who can hit a little.
My main concern is he really looked gassed this year catching as much as he did. I don't think it is as much of the physical grind of being behind the plate, but the mental grind. It appeared he worked his tail off before each game with the pitchers and probably did studying as well. Hitting was such an after-thought, he never got it going. I would like the Pirates to now put a priority on getting his bat going as well.
Fair. I'm hoping that's just a matter of age and maturity. If he's capped under 100 games behind the plate then I think it'll be pretty disappointing.
Every year he played in the minors, only 50 to 60% of his starts were at catcher. I think there is something to that why he was hitting so well. Just guessing his legs were fresh and could spend more time on hitting as opposed to working with pitching, but who knows. Whatever it takes to getting him hitting well again, I am all for. If not, there is little difference between him and Delay.
That, too, I think is a function of how fast they pushed him. Extremely rare for a kid to be inserted as a big league starting catcher before his 23rd birthday AND Endy missed an entire year of dev due to the pandemic. I could be off but if memory serves most catchers are very limited through the low minors and build up their stamina as they continue developing in the upper levels.
endy is 5'11 and has never played first so thats a pretty dumb idea. nothing about his bat seemed better than an average catcher at any point last year, including in AAA. endy played 2nd and outfield in the minors when he didnt catch. he can DH a few days a week.
Thank you for straightening me out on my dumb idea and I like your reasoning. You are correct that Endy has never played first base unless you want to count the games he played first base in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 and the games that I saw him play in person.
Also when I made the point that his hitting fell off in 2023, thanks for straightening me out again on that dumb idea of thinking he was once a good hitter. Because hitting at every level and finishing the last 3 months of 2022 with a homer every 12 at bats and a .378 batting average during that time is nothing more than an average catcher.
Endy played 1B at every level of the minor leagues except Altoona.
uh.... what 3 games?
About 40 games total in the minors in his career in the minors. And about 25 in the OF and another 20 at second. That’s more than three.
It’s funny that this organization made a point of making Endy more diverse defensively, and didn’t think of it with Hank until he was basically on the doorstep of the majors.
Hank got so little playing time in general in MiLB. Kid played 122 games total in MiLB in 3 seasons. Endy got 356 through 5 seasons. Pedro Alvarez—who I recall fans complaining was "rushed" to the bigs—got 329 games in 4 seasons. Bryan Reynolds got 278 games coming out of Vanderbilt through 4 seasons. It's really striking how little time he got due to injuries and just the speed to promotion.
most top 10 picks from college dont spend much time in the minors these days in other orgs
They’ve really bungled his development. I cannot imagine a guy catching his entire life and then getting a dozen games in the outfield at AAA and the getting thrust into that position at the bigs. It’s crazy.
While I understand that last years injury not only hindered his development behind the plate AND their ability to decide if he could stick there, they should have taken much of this year to make that decision. Let him catch through June and if he’s as bad as they seem to think, move him to the OF for July/August with a chance at a September call up if he looks like he’s making progress out there. Why the rush?
Their major league roles seemed very backwards from the way they were prepared in the minors. I thought Endy might have hit more if they didn't have him catching everyday while I thought Henry might have hit more if they didn't stick him in right field where he was failing defensively.
On a side note: Thanks for guiding me through my meltdown a few nights ago about the former Pirate that just got claimed by the A's. I haven't mentioned him on here again since. You can send me a counseling bill in the mail. :)
One thing you are 100% correct on that I didn't give you credit for is you can't be scared to lose players. I sometimes look at what we have invested in the player and forget the goal is to put together the best team on the field.
Haha, it’s so easy to get attached to players. Because on this site and others in the past, we’re following them far before they reach the majors.
As fans of this team who has seen many players blossom after leaving, it’s a common affliction to be nervous parting ways with players. Cole, Musgrove, Glasnow...I have to stop or I’ll get depressed! So the end result is, we get worried when anyone leaves.
The Endy/Hank thing is odd. Maybe pedigree had something to do with it? When they drafted Hank, Endy was in the middle of his breakout but it was still at low A. So I think Hank was always going to get every opportunity to catch...or maybe that’s what they thought till they saw him catch. And then they didn’t know what to do. This management team seems to have a plan...until things don’t go to plan and then they get lost. It doesn’t inspire much confidence.