That bad? Feels like 07 had Cutch, Lincoln and Walker as their only top 100 prospects (Cutch at 13, Lincoln at 69, Walker at 74) per BA. No idea if they’ve got a list out yet, but I’d guess the Skenes/Termarr group is better. But you’re right, probably not by a whole lot. Feels like it’s more depth than stars, as per usual.
This comes with the obligatory “lists are made to be mocked years later” post.
Here’s a question...was the top 10 of that 2007 list better than the second 10?
Top 10: Daisuke Matsusaka, Alex Gordon, Delmon Young, Phil Hughes, Homer Bailey, Cameron Maybin, Evan Longoria, Brandon Wood, Justin Upton, Andrew Miller.
Second 10: Tim Lincecum, Chris Young, Cutch, Jay Bruce, Troy Tulowitzski, Yovani Gallardo, Reid Brignac, Carlos Gonzalez, Andy LaRoche, Mike Pelfry.
And it's that depth that is so lacking, at least relative to the last decade-plus.
'08 came the teardown influx and the only sketchy years from then on were in that like '17/'18 transition, but to my eye the current system is worse. It's truly just the high draft picks and little else.
I don't know that the system is in bad shape. I don't get the sense though that it is top 5 or whatever in baseball, which is really inexcusable for all the high draft picks and trading of veterans for prospects. There is plenty of depth in A-ball, but mostly just 40-45 grade guys, most of whom will never have more than a cup of coffee in Pittsburgh.
If this were a system of a team that is winning 90 games per season and looking to fill in some spots as guys leave in free agency or get hurt, then I would say the system is in good shape, but as a system that the Pirates are absolutely depending on to fill out multiple major-league spots and push from from a 70-win team to a 90-win team? I don't see it either.
Most of the prospects that were traded for vets are already in the majors or have busted already. BCs high draft picks - Gonzales (struggling), Davis (struggling) Termarr (too soon) Skenes (too soon). We'll see if his underslot for Davis to get Bubba, Solo, White will amount to much.
Out of his trade you have Suwinski, Bednar Rodriguez and maybe Oviedo and Peguero. I do like the relievers he traded for in Holder and Moreta. It just doesn't appear he acquired any real needle moving talent other than having Skenes fall into his lap.
The fact of the matter is the best players on the team are still Huntington's guys - Keller, Hayes, Reynolds, Cruz, Triolo.
That's the thing. Cherington has yet to add one significant piece via the draft.
There was an interesting article on MLB.com about the Rangers surprising everyone by drafting Evan Carter. Apparently only 2 other teams were even looking at Carter: The Pirates and the Royals. The Rangers took him in the 2nd round because they were afraid the Pirates or Royals would take him in the 3rd, because both the Pirates and Royals were drafting ahead of Texas. Thing is... Carter had committed to Duke, so it was going to take 2nd round money to convince him to sign.
The Pirates had the scouting. They had the opportunity, but for whatever reason, they failed to act on it. Even if they had selected him in the 3rd round, it is unlikely he would have signed for that money. A failing that we cannot pin on scouting or development. The reason Evan Carter is not playing for the Pirates right now is because Cherington failed to draft him when he had every reason to do so.
I like the depth in the minors with the high upside guys, in the majors not so much. I think a trade with Cleveland makes since on both ends. (Joe for Quantrill) They need a right handed corner bat, we need a backend innings eater that has a decent track record before a down year. We might get another prospect back as well.
Unrelated to this thread, but found this interesting tidbit on fangraphs: "• Jung-hoo Lee 이정후 might get posted this offseason.
Lee doesn’t have Yamamoto’s high profile and he’ll come at a significantly lower price tag, but Lee could very well land a healthy contract himself during an offseason that is generally short on premium free-agent position players. Like Yamamoto, Lee is also 25 years old, would be subject to a posting fee, and has impressed observers over seven seasons of international ball.
Lee has hit .340/.407/.491 over 3946 career plate appearances for the Heroes, with 65 homers and 244 doubles. His resume includes KBO League MVP honors in 2022, five KBO Gold Gloves for his defense (mostly in center field), and a standout performance for South Korea’s team in the last World Baseball Classic."
I can see Lee getting 5 year, 75 to 100 million because the shortage of outfielders in free agency.
Yamamoto probably passes 200 million. Imanaga probably 5 year, 75 to 100 million as well.
I would love for the pirates to try and sign 1 or 2 of them, but I'll believe it when I see it.
I just can't see Bob agreeing to that much money. Come on prove me wrong Bob and sign Yamamoto for 8 years 200+ million. If you go that far you might as well get Imanaga as well.
Like your enthusiasm, but I’m not holding my breath on them dishing out a 9 figure contract to anyone in FA when they haven’t even gone 8 figures in how many years? Since Ivan Nova?
I wouldn't call it enthusiastic with an "I'll believe it when I see it", "can't see Bob agreeing to that much money" and "prove me wrong Bob" but I'd love it if Bob decided to start being a Big League owner and taking some risk and try to make the team more than competitive.
If Tampa is willing to spend something like $120 million, then shouldn’t the Pirates?
More important than the amount is the perception they are trying to compete. If they don’t sign in FA, trade for, or sign in IFA, a “good” SP to a multi-year deal, I’ll know they aren’t trying to win yet. And I’ll be pissed off, as every Pirates fan should be.
It would change their image greatly. Yamamoto would cost about the same as all the players they signed last year in free agency, probably a little less. They can afford the dollars but I'm not sure Bob can afford the risk. He seems to be very risk adverse.
With part 4 complete, seems fair to ask if the system has been in worse shape since what, 2007?
That bad? Feels like 07 had Cutch, Lincoln and Walker as their only top 100 prospects (Cutch at 13, Lincoln at 69, Walker at 74) per BA. No idea if they’ve got a list out yet, but I’d guess the Skenes/Termarr group is better. But you’re right, probably not by a whole lot. Feels like it’s more depth than stars, as per usual.
This comes with the obligatory “lists are made to be mocked years later” post.
Here’s a question...was the top 10 of that 2007 list better than the second 10?
Top 10: Daisuke Matsusaka, Alex Gordon, Delmon Young, Phil Hughes, Homer Bailey, Cameron Maybin, Evan Longoria, Brandon Wood, Justin Upton, Andrew Miller.
Second 10: Tim Lincecum, Chris Young, Cutch, Jay Bruce, Troy Tulowitzski, Yovani Gallardo, Reid Brignac, Carlos Gonzalez, Andy LaRoche, Mike Pelfry.
And it's that depth that is so lacking, at least relative to the last decade-plus.
'08 came the teardown influx and the only sketchy years from then on were in that like '17/'18 transition, but to my eye the current system is worse. It's truly just the high draft picks and little else.
I don't know that the system is in bad shape. I don't get the sense though that it is top 5 or whatever in baseball, which is really inexcusable for all the high draft picks and trading of veterans for prospects. There is plenty of depth in A-ball, but mostly just 40-45 grade guys, most of whom will never have more than a cup of coffee in Pittsburgh.
If this were a system of a team that is winning 90 games per season and looking to fill in some spots as guys leave in free agency or get hurt, then I would say the system is in good shape, but as a system that the Pirates are absolutely depending on to fill out multiple major-league spots and push from from a 70-win team to a 90-win team? I don't see it either.
Completely agreed.
It's certainly not a great system.
Most of the prospects that were traded for vets are already in the majors or have busted already. BCs high draft picks - Gonzales (struggling), Davis (struggling) Termarr (too soon) Skenes (too soon). We'll see if his underslot for Davis to get Bubba, Solo, White will amount to much.
Out of his trade you have Suwinski, Bednar Rodriguez and maybe Oviedo and Peguero. I do like the relievers he traded for in Holder and Moreta. It just doesn't appear he acquired any real needle moving talent other than having Skenes fall into his lap.
The fact of the matter is the best players on the team are still Huntington's guys - Keller, Hayes, Reynolds, Cruz, Triolo.
That's the thing. Cherington has yet to add one significant piece via the draft.
There was an interesting article on MLB.com about the Rangers surprising everyone by drafting Evan Carter. Apparently only 2 other teams were even looking at Carter: The Pirates and the Royals. The Rangers took him in the 2nd round because they were afraid the Pirates or Royals would take him in the 3rd, because both the Pirates and Royals were drafting ahead of Texas. Thing is... Carter had committed to Duke, so it was going to take 2nd round money to convince him to sign.
The Pirates had the scouting. They had the opportunity, but for whatever reason, they failed to act on it. Even if they had selected him in the 3rd round, it is unlikely he would have signed for that money. A failing that we cannot pin on scouting or development. The reason Evan Carter is not playing for the Pirates right now is because Cherington failed to draft him when he had every reason to do so.
I like the depth in the minors with the high upside guys, in the majors not so much. I think a trade with Cleveland makes since on both ends. (Joe for Quantrill) They need a right handed corner bat, we need a backend innings eater that has a decent track record before a down year. We might get another prospect back as well.
Stack 'em up.
Unrelated to this thread, but found this interesting tidbit on fangraphs: "• Jung-hoo Lee 이정후 might get posted this offseason.
Lee doesn’t have Yamamoto’s high profile and he’ll come at a significantly lower price tag, but Lee could very well land a healthy contract himself during an offseason that is generally short on premium free-agent position players. Like Yamamoto, Lee is also 25 years old, would be subject to a posting fee, and has impressed observers over seven seasons of international ball.
Lee has hit .340/.407/.491 over 3946 career plate appearances for the Heroes, with 65 homers and 244 doubles. His resume includes KBO League MVP honors in 2022, five KBO Gold Gloves for his defense (mostly in center field), and a standout performance for South Korea’s team in the last World Baseball Classic."
I can see Lee getting 5 year, 75 to 100 million because the shortage of outfielders in free agency.
Yamamoto probably passes 200 million. Imanaga probably 5 year, 75 to 100 million as well.
I would love for the pirates to try and sign 1 or 2 of them, but I'll believe it when I see it.
I just can't see Bob agreeing to that much money. Come on prove me wrong Bob and sign Yamamoto for 8 years 200+ million. If you go that far you might as well get Imanaga as well.
Like your enthusiasm, but I’m not holding my breath on them dishing out a 9 figure contract to anyone in FA when they haven’t even gone 8 figures in how many years? Since Ivan Nova?
I wouldn't call it enthusiastic with an "I'll believe it when I see it", "can't see Bob agreeing to that much money" and "prove me wrong Bob" but I'd love it if Bob decided to start being a Big League owner and taking some risk and try to make the team more than competitive.
If Tampa is willing to spend something like $120 million, then shouldn’t the Pirates?
More important than the amount is the perception they are trying to compete. If they don’t sign in FA, trade for, or sign in IFA, a “good” SP to a multi-year deal, I’ll know they aren’t trying to win yet. And I’ll be pissed off, as every Pirates fan should be.
It would change their image greatly. Yamamoto would cost about the same as all the players they signed last year in free agency, probably a little less. They can afford the dollars but I'm not sure Bob can afford the risk. He seems to be very risk adverse.
Totally agree about Nutting’s risk aversion mentality.
Makes me think of Einstein’s definition of insanity. And we keep getting meaningless September baseball as a result. Usually August and July, too.