Why do you think jones isnt a future starter when literally thats what hes always been and been good at? f you are going tonsay stuff like that, maybe back it up. You might think cabrera has the risk of being a reliever, doeant mean anyone else does. In a league that only requires 5 innings for a starter, and on a team with maybe 2 people better than him, theres no real reliever risk here especially for 2024. Long term maybe but we dont necessarily need him in the rotation after 2024
The Pirates do not need to trade anyone to get a decent major league pitcher. All they need to do is spend some of their precious money, which of course won’t happen because of that Nutting fellows love affair with himself and his bank accounts. I only hope that they don’t get fleeced again if they do make a trade.
Would take a lot more money than several other destinations to convince him to actually sign on a Bucco contract. He has to want to sign to actually do it.
If Davis is as good as you say, wouldn’t make more sense to keep him and sign someone like German to bridge the rotation until some combination of Jones, Skenes, Burrows, Brubaker, Chandler, Solometo, Ashcraft, Harrington, and Sullivan are ready to stake their claim in the rotation?
I'm all for a Eury Perez for Henry Davis trade, but, realistically, that will never happen! Henry Davis could possibly pry a Max Meyer away from the Marlins, but I'm not sure the Pirates would want to entertain that exchange.
Frankly, if I'm the GM for the Marlins, Eury Perez is untradeable. 19 Starts as a 20 year old, 3 innings short of averaging 5 IP/game with a 3.15 ERA? And, he's still 20!
I know it was mentioned in the other article's comments, but I am on another board for a different local sports team, and a member of that board used to work in the Pirates' FO analytics department, and still has some ties there. Say the Cabrera rumors are real, and seemed optimistic a deal might get done.
A Miami Marins beat reporter, Andres Bolivar, also had it on "X", with the center pieces being Bae and Ashcraft.
I don't put much stock into any of it other than they've had talks, which is really no different than GMs generally calling and asking prices. No different than the 2-3 years straight of Reynolds rumors, and specifically to the Marlins. Bolivar even walked back his tweet shortly thereafter. I'd be all for it, but I'm not going to get my hopes up until I see someone like Robert Murray puts it out there that talks are heating up.
Idk. Bae is probably the questionable one in a sense of how would the Marlins perceive him? On the surface, Cabrera is an option-less injury plagued starter that has yet to eclipse 100 IP in a MLB season (VERY close at 99.2). Albeit, a guy with still a ton of upside. It's also, in a sense, a position of strength for the Marlins. Not always the best source, but BTV would have it as rather fair value. Maybe pirates toss in another low level lottery ticket.
I agree. I hear the Marlins are looking for a SS. If they view Liover viable there, this could happen. Maybe Liover, Solo/Ashcraft/Harrington, + lower level guy- Suero/Blanco, etc?
Probably much closer, but my guess is they’d want Jones or Chandler. It figured all along to be a seller’s market for SPs, which is why BC’s “plan” to go cheap was boss-level stupid.
No way I’m giving up nearly that much talent in this trade. We are trading for one of the top young.SPs in baseball.
At worst, we desperately need starting pitching for the first two months of the season. After that, Jones and Skenes are ready. A month later, Brubaker and Burrows are ready. Ashcraft could also come up during that timeframe. And next year, Chandler and Solometo are ready to compete for a starting job.
I wouldn't mind if they went all out and tried to get Cabrera and Arraez. Maybe a Bae, Ashcraft, Peguero, Jebb and Harrington package would intrigue them.
A lineup of
1) Arraez 2nd
2) Reynolds LF
3) Cruz SS
4) Hayes 3rd
5) Suwinski CF
6) Davis C
7) Tellez/Joe 1st
8) Olivares/Palacios RF
9) Cutch DH
Super Utility infield) Triolo
Backup C) Grandal
With a rotation
1) Keller
2) Gonzalez
3) Cabrera
4) Perez
5) spring competition
A lineup like that, should compete for the division.
I'm sure it would take more, like Jones. I also think we are putting a higher price on Cabrera. The 3 prospects going their way in Ashcraft, Jebb and Harrington would be in their top 10 if not top 7. Jones would be 2nd for them.
That's the reason I think we can get him. The Marlins are financially strapped, have a new GM and a bottom tier minor league system. Two high school 2023 draft selections and a player coming back from TJS are the only 3 high ranking prospects. If they get 5 or 6 players back, a couple big league ready and a few 3 or 4 prospects in their top 10 they should be intrigued.
They just lost their best power hitter and best pitcher on a team that kinda lucked into the playoffs. It depends on how the new GM perceives the team. They haven't done much in the off-season, so he's waiting for spring training to evaluate or make moves one way or the other.
I'm not saying I wouldn't make the trade, especially if it would be Ashcraft and not any of the guys AdSky listed below, it's just that Ashcraft is one of those prospects that I've been interested in since he was drafted, and it was nice to see him have some success last year after the injuries he's had. That's all.
We all have our guys. I'm sure there's someone here that would feel like that if it was Bae and Sean Sullivan.... lol
If Ashcraft repeats his showing this year he's every bit as good a prospect as Cabrera ever was. That's the big question.
I think if Cabrera had ever managed to string together stuff and health this would be a no-brainer, but he hasn't. I'm far from a prospect hoarder but generally like using them to reduce risk. That just ain't gonna happen with a guy like Cabrera. You're almost talking about a prospect-prospect swap at that point.
That’s fair. I’m probably reading too much into Cabrera’s potential and not as sold on Ashcraft trending up. Has his stuff ticked up since TJ surgery? I can’t really remember, other than him performing well after he came back.
Ha, this guy is usually pretty reliable, though his last direct source left in the fall, so lately it’s been second hand info. But he had Perez and Grandal before word got out, so I’m hoping his info is good here too
You probably forgot to include the line "Can validate the acquisition of low cost light hitting middle infielders and soft tossing lefties through the use of advanced metrics".
I think there is enough pieces here for a respectable pitching staff if put together right and if the offense could sustain an offense all year comparable to last years month and a half to start the season it's a competitive team. The team hasn't done well with multi-inning relievers the past couple of seasons but there might be a couple of good candidates this season. In reality it looks like another spring of hoping for a bunch of breakout seasons in order to compete, lol.
I like Peggy at 23 better than Triolo was 3 years ago at 23. I do think with Triolo you know what you have while Peguero is still a bit of a wild card.
The age question is the one. Triolo has been better than Peggy at every level, but has also been significantly older.
We could end up with a Cole Tucker scenario where prospect status remains heavily tied to age until it became clear that the added dev time wasn't actually leading to a better player.
On offense, I see Triolo as a #2 hitter or a potential Kevin Newman type hitter. First the first 3 months, Triolo had a good batting average but only 3 extra base hits in 137 plate appearances. That a long with the fact that he doesn't steal bases doesn't put a lot of fear in opposing pitchers. In defense, he is rock solid. I like him as utility player. If he could play the outfield, that would be a plus.
I agree with you, his batted ball data looked plenty good to be MLB quality. Hard to buy a super high babip from Triolo. I keep hoping Nick G shows up with a swing change, kinda like how I wished the same for Newman for years.
I hope NG has a solid Spring and makes himself valuable to another team in need.
Triolo is an absolute necessity. Hayes, IIRC, has played 136 games and 124 games the last 2 years. Triolo stepped in and played 35 games at 3B last year without much of a drop in defensive quality. He is also a solid IF at 2B, and can also play SS and 1B.
Peguero is a solid, but young, MI (23). He should start at 2B opposite Oneil Cruz at SS. He is also our only legit SS if something does not go well with Cruz this year or in the future. I think TJ is our 2B of the future and Peguero could be his MI partner at SS.
Saw a lot of Peggy last year and while he's got tools, Triolo looks to me just to be better.
I think Triolo hits kind of like one of my old favorites: Freddy Sanchez.
"Any one o' you lilly-livered, bow-legged varmints care to slap leather with me? In case any of ya git'ny idears, ya better know who yer dealin' with. I'm the hootin'est, tootin'est, shootin'est bob-tail wild cat in the west!!! I'm the fastest gun north, south, east and west o' the Pecos!!!! I'm the....
Liover's babip was120 points lower, but I was referring to batted ball data - Liover Z-contact - 84.4%, o-swing was 32.7%, line drive of 19.2% and hard hit of 30.6% in line with a solid MLB hitter.. Not saying Triolo didnt show promise, but rather than Liover looked better than the statline.
I like Triolo a lot. Though he’s unlikely to ever be a slugger, I expect his power to continue improving as his hamate injury gets further in the rear-view.
Why do you think jones isnt a future starter when literally thats what hes always been and been good at? f you are going tonsay stuff like that, maybe back it up. You might think cabrera has the risk of being a reliever, doeant mean anyone else does. In a league that only requires 5 innings for a starter, and on a team with maybe 2 people better than him, theres no real reliever risk here especially for 2024. Long term maybe but we dont necessarily need him in the rotation after 2024
The Pirates do not need to trade anyone to get a decent major league pitcher. All they need to do is spend some of their precious money, which of course won’t happen because of that Nutting fellows love affair with himself and his bank accounts. I only hope that they don’t get fleeced again if they do make a trade.
You're right. They clearly can afford Jordan Montgomery, who would then be our ace and make us an interesting team in the NL Central.
Would take a lot more money than several other destinations to convince him to actually sign on a Bucco contract. He has to want to sign to actually do it.
Nail-on-head, guys with multiple options typically do not choose the Pirates as their primary destination, at least not yet.
it sure would be slick to land Eury for Tank
nowhere else can the Marlins find a catcher with as high caliber as Davis on the free agent market nor in trade
This makes much more sense in a world where Endy is healthy.
Nah not really. Grandal and delay would be an upgrade feom 2023 with hedges.
would be happy to play Grandal for the year
He’s closer to 40 than 30. Would be a fireable offense for BC to go into season with negative WAR Grandal as full-time Catcher.
Which is exactly the plan
meh - if the trade off is Eury, then I´d be happy to oblidge
Tank would be the best thing that happened to florida since Realmuto
If Davis is as good as you say, wouldn’t make more sense to keep him and sign someone like German to bridge the rotation until some combination of Jones, Skenes, Burrows, Brubaker, Chandler, Solometo, Ashcraft, Harrington, and Sullivan are ready to stake their claim in the rotation?
no because we have Endy coming back
I'm all for a Eury Perez for Henry Davis trade, but, realistically, that will never happen! Henry Davis could possibly pry a Max Meyer away from the Marlins, but I'm not sure the Pirates would want to entertain that exchange.
I would
wonder if including Jack would move the needle? that would allow them to move Chisholm back to the infield
And then we have noone to play center... great idea.
Frankly, if I'm the GM for the Marlins, Eury Perez is untradeable. 19 Starts as a 20 year old, 3 innings short of averaging 5 IP/game with a 3.15 ERA? And, he's still 20!
Sean sullivan hype train check in!
CHOO!!! CHOO!!!!!!!!!
I know it was mentioned in the other article's comments, but I am on another board for a different local sports team, and a member of that board used to work in the Pirates' FO analytics department, and still has some ties there. Say the Cabrera rumors are real, and seemed optimistic a deal might get done.
A Miami Marins beat reporter, Andres Bolivar, also had it on "X", with the center pieces being Bae and Ashcraft.
I don't put much stock into any of it other than they've had talks, which is really no different than GMs generally calling and asking prices. No different than the 2-3 years straight of Reynolds rumors, and specifically to the Marlins. Bolivar even walked back his tweet shortly thereafter. I'd be all for it, but I'm not going to get my hopes up until I see someone like Robert Murray puts it out there that talks are heating up.
Ashcraft and Bae seems light to me.
Include Joe, they could definitely use him and Triolo could fill Joe’s shoes here.
BTV agrees with you by about $5 MM in value.
Idk. Bae is probably the questionable one in a sense of how would the Marlins perceive him? On the surface, Cabrera is an option-less injury plagued starter that has yet to eclipse 100 IP in a MLB season (VERY close at 99.2). Albeit, a guy with still a ton of upside. It's also, in a sense, a position of strength for the Marlins. Not always the best source, but BTV would have it as rather fair value. Maybe pirates toss in another low level lottery ticket.
I agree. I hear the Marlins are looking for a SS. If they view Liover viable there, this could happen. Maybe Liover, Solo/Ashcraft/Harrington, + lower level guy- Suero/Blanco, etc?
Probably much closer, but my guess is they’d want Jones or Chandler. It figured all along to be a seller’s market for SPs, which is why BC’s “plan” to go cheap was boss-level stupid.
No way I’m giving up nearly that much talent in this trade. We are trading for one of the top young.SPs in baseball.
At worst, we desperately need starting pitching for the first two months of the season. After that, Jones and Skenes are ready. A month later, Brubaker and Burrows are ready. Ashcraft could also come up during that timeframe. And next year, Chandler and Solometo are ready to compete for a starting job.
No way I’m trading for Cabrera.
First sentence was supposed to read, “we are not.”
If I'm throwing in Jones/Chandler with Liover and Suero/Blanco, I'd add something valuable and shoot for Luzardo.
I wouldn't mind if they went all out and tried to get Cabrera and Arraez. Maybe a Bae, Ashcraft, Peguero, Jebb and Harrington package would intrigue them.
A lineup of
1) Arraez 2nd
2) Reynolds LF
3) Cruz SS
4) Hayes 3rd
5) Suwinski CF
6) Davis C
7) Tellez/Joe 1st
8) Olivares/Palacios RF
9) Cutch DH
Super Utility infield) Triolo
Backup C) Grandal
With a rotation
1) Keller
2) Gonzalez
3) Cabrera
4) Perez
5) spring competition
A lineup like that, should compete for the division.
Arraez is a back-to-back batting champion! I think you are biting off a little more than we could possibly obtain with our low ceiling prospects!
I'm sure it would take more, like Jones. I also think we are putting a higher price on Cabrera. The 3 prospects going their way in Ashcraft, Jebb and Harrington would be in their top 10 if not top 7. Jones would be 2nd for them.
My problem is he just asked for 12 millon in arbitration and will be a free agent in 2 years.
That's the reason I think we can get him. The Marlins are financially strapped, have a new GM and a bottom tier minor league system. Two high school 2023 draft selections and a player coming back from TJS are the only 3 high ranking prospects. If they get 5 or 6 players back, a couple big league ready and a few 3 or 4 prospects in their top 10 they should be intrigued.
They just lost their best power hitter and best pitcher on a team that kinda lucked into the playoffs. It depends on how the new GM perceives the team. They haven't done much in the off-season, so he's waiting for spring training to evaluate or make moves one way or the other.
That deal is a whole lotta nickels in search of a quarter if you’re Miami.
I couldn’t see Cutch’s ego letting him be ok batting 9th.
You're most likely right. I just like his on base ability in that slot if we had Arraez.
I would be pretty happy with that lineup.
I am recognizing that suwinski is properly in the 5 hole here
As much as I'd like to have Cabrera, I will be very sad if the trade involves Ashcraft.
But you have to give to get, as they say.
What’s Ashcraft, their 7th best arm among prospects? I’d guess his ceiling is a good bit lower than Cabrera’s.
I'm not saying I wouldn't make the trade, especially if it would be Ashcraft and not any of the guys AdSky listed below, it's just that Ashcraft is one of those prospects that I've been interested in since he was drafted, and it was nice to see him have some success last year after the injuries he's had. That's all.
We all have our guys. I'm sure there's someone here that would feel like that if it was Bae and Sean Sullivan.... lol
I know I'm the low guy but I'd trade Solo before Ashcraft.
Never mind. I just read what you said 4 hours ago.
I've only seen Solo once and haven't seen Ashcraft yet. Give me your reason why you don't like Solo or why you do like Ashcraft.
If Ashcraft repeats his showing this year he's every bit as good a prospect as Cabrera ever was. That's the big question.
I think if Cabrera had ever managed to string together stuff and health this would be a no-brainer, but he hasn't. I'm far from a prospect hoarder but generally like using them to reduce risk. That just ain't gonna happen with a guy like Cabrera. You're almost talking about a prospect-prospect swap at that point.
That’s fair. I’m probably reading too much into Cabrera’s potential and not as sold on Ashcraft trending up. Has his stuff ticked up since TJ surgery? I can’t really remember, other than him performing well after he came back.
Ashcraft was hitting 97 and 98 the last game I saw him pitch with command. Secondary pitches looked good as well.
Would also miss ashcraft, but keeping skenes, bubba, jones, solo, etc. would be a pretty good deal
Is his last name McFerren? And does he have some sort of Mexican dogs? Just asking.
Ha, this guy is usually pretty reliable, though his last direct source left in the fall, so lately it’s been second hand info. But he had Perez and Grandal before word got out, so I’m hoping his info is good here too
As am I.
they never replied to my resume
Migth as well, they probably would’ve asked you to reveal your sources, no job is worth that!
You probably forgot to include the line "Can validate the acquisition of low cost light hitting middle infielders and soft tossing lefties through the use of advanced metrics".
Overqualified probably.
Would be super fine with those being center pieces!
WOO SPRING TRAINING WOOOOOOOO
I think there is enough pieces here for a respectable pitching staff if put together right and if the offense could sustain an offense all year comparable to last years month and a half to start the season it's a competitive team. The team hasn't done well with multi-inning relievers the past couple of seasons but there might be a couple of good candidates this season. In reality it looks like another spring of hoping for a bunch of breakout seasons in order to compete, lol.
Time to find out if Driveline fixed the pitchers, and if so, how well
And if so, how much it will cost to straight up buy Driveline and deal only with Pirates prospects lol
Maybe they should double down and buy Treads as well lol
BUY MOAR
It's finally back!
Signings official. Endy and Oviedo to 60-day.
Gotta be that 2b battle between Liover, Triolo, and Nick G. Who made the adjustments to break out?
Pipeline thinks it’ll be Triolo.
I like Peggy going into camp
I like Peggy at 23 better than Triolo was 3 years ago at 23. I do think with Triolo you know what you have while Peguero is still a bit of a wild card.
The age question is the one. Triolo has been better than Peggy at every level, but has also been significantly older.
We could end up with a Cole Tucker scenario where prospect status remains heavily tied to age until it became clear that the added dev time wasn't actually leading to a better player.
Let's hope not.
On offense, I see Triolo as a #2 hitter or a potential Kevin Newman type hitter. First the first 3 months, Triolo had a good batting average but only 3 extra base hits in 137 plate appearances. That a long with the fact that he doesn't steal bases doesn't put a lot of fear in opposing pitchers. In defense, he is rock solid. I like him as utility player. If he could play the outfield, that would be a plus.
I agree with you, his batted ball data looked plenty good to be MLB quality. Hard to buy a super high babip from Triolo. I keep hoping Nick G shows up with a swing change, kinda like how I wished the same for Newman for years.
I hope NG has a solid Spring and makes himself valuable to another team in need.
Triolo is an absolute necessity. Hayes, IIRC, has played 136 games and 124 games the last 2 years. Triolo stepped in and played 35 games at 3B last year without much of a drop in defensive quality. He is also a solid IF at 2B, and can also play SS and 1B.
Peguero is a solid, but young, MI (23). He should start at 2B opposite Oneil Cruz at SS. He is also our only legit SS if something does not go well with Cruz this year or in the future. I think TJ is our 2B of the future and Peguero could be his MI partner at SS.
Everyone is still sleeping on NG’s 60 XBH’s last year…I get he has a wart, but people just wanna give this 24 yo away for nothing.
Jared Triolo: .323 xwOBA
Liover Peguero: .266 xwOBA
Peguero was nearly as fortunate as Triolo, just demonstrably worse.
Yeah, he lost me at batted ball data lol
Tree about to be 2019 post-hamate surgery Bryan Reynolds. Book it!
NMR... they don't have a "super like" button.
Saw a lot of Peggy last year and while he's got tools, Triolo looks to me just to be better.
I think Triolo hits kind of like one of my old favorites: Freddy Sanchez.
"Any one o' you lilly-livered, bow-legged varmints care to slap leather with me? In case any of ya git'ny idears, ya better know who yer dealin' with. I'm the hootin'est, tootin'est, shootin'est bob-tail wild cat in the west!!! I'm the fastest gun north, south, east and west o' the Pecos!!!! I'm the....
"Aaaaaaaaaaaaah shadaaaap!"
-Wabbit
I'm with ya Wabbit. Still waiting on Peggy to put all the tools together, which he very well might do!
Liover's babip was120 points lower, but I was referring to batted ball data - Liover Z-contact - 84.4%, o-swing was 32.7%, line drive of 19.2% and hard hit of 30.6% in line with a solid MLB hitter.. Not saying Triolo didnt show promise, but rather than Liover looked better than the statline.
Oh I hear ya, but xwOBA is literally based on composite batted ball data + plate discipline.
Triolo was demonstrably better at those things.
I dont think xwOBA does that - i think it is based mostly on exit velocity and launch angle, at least as defined by mlb.com - https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/expected-woba
I like Triolo a lot. Though he’s unlikely to ever be a slugger, I expect his power to continue improving as his hamate injury gets further in the rear-view.