Understanding and explaining the process isnt an excuse. only in a yinzer region like western pa do we have such entitled fans that so completely have no understanding about sports economics. baseball isnt the nhl and its not the nfl. there is no equal footing. in this sport, a teardown and rebuild is often necessary and its the process you use to judge it not immediate average or better results. in our market,.500 isnt average, it is above average. This year is stark and obvious improvement even under huge injuries, so its hard to not give average grades here. when you are competing with markets 3x bigger the hill to climb is that much higher. you may not like reality but you do have to live in it.
Until the PIrates have one Cherington draft pick in their starting lineup every day, the best grade he could hope for is incomplete, and that is the grade I give him. He will be entering his 5th season as GM. The excuses for losing expire next season. Only in Pirates land, where the expectations have been lowered into the cellar, is finishing with a -98 run differential and 10 games below .500 a significant achievement. All he has achieved is to move the gauge from abysmal to poor. Average is .500, and they are still 10 games away from average.
Next year, no one should judge him on the promise of A-ball prospects, or how many whiffs Skenes gets on his curveball in AAA. In his 5th season, the only measure is success at the MLB level. If he manages to get to .500, he will get a C. If he gets close to .500, he gets a D. Anything less is a failing grade. No more excuses.
Davis after being called up was an everyday player until he got injured. He was an unmitigated disaster, but he still was an everyday player.
Skenes does not throw a curve. He should be getting whiffs at the MLB level. Watching a guy like Wheeler dominate the post-season is something we hope Skenes becomes...he has that Wheeler type of talent.
Yeah... I know Skenes' repertoire. I used the curve as example to illustrate his developing a solid 4th pitch to illustrate the development of players in general.
Of course, the Pirates can put anyone they want in the starting lineup. They could fill it with Cherington draft picks if they wanted. The point is someone who actually belongs in the starting lineup. The Davis thing is bad... very bad.. and casts the entire organization in a dim light.
With Shelton, I am willing to be a little patient. He was a first-time manager when the Pirates hired him. He had mostly been a hitting instructor and didn't think much about pitch sequencing, pitcher-batter matchups, or bullpen management before. So he gets some time to acclimate himself. Cherington has already been a GM. There should be no learning curve. Isn't that why the Pirates hired him? He had experience? So these types of absurd player development issues as we see with Davis are inexcusable.
what part of it is inexcusable exactly? 1. we find out at the end of the season that the hand issue is why he didnt get time at catcher 2. cherington wasnt a GM in a small market. if you think his previous experience readied him for this you arent that bright. wanna see what epstein or cashman would do here, theyd fall flat on their faces. A GMs job is to accumulate talent and allow it to develop, and then fill gaps when necessary from surpluses to.create a winning team. that first part takes YEARS, and is basically complete. next year is that transitional phase where we get to see how well he fills holes from surpluses. keeping the right players and moving the wrong ones to create a winning team.
Begrudgingly I gave GM a B. Liked the Cutch signing and he did what I expected. Didnt like Santana but he played great. Hill was as expected. Hated VV but he looked good until injury. Hated Hedges and he was even worse than my super low expectations. Joe was a nice pickup. Hernandez was a great Rule 5 pick. A few nice waiver claims etc. But most important of all, he did the right thing and drafted Skenes!
I think if JB and VV stayed healthy his report card would be all A’s and B’s. In sports there is always a lot of “ifs” but we have so many “ifs” that the law of averages is in the favor of the PBC.
Very few teams have so many high picks in their system (Davis, Stenes, Termarr, Nicky G) and big trade pieces (Endy, Peggy) that haven’t even contributed yet and they still played competitive baseball in 2023.
I’m sure a few guys will bust, a few will take a step forward, a few will need TJ, whatever, but the next 5+ years overall look encouraging.
My off-season wish list is 1) extend Keller;
2) sign or trade for a solid LHH 1B; and sign 2 FA starters (one being a lefty). That’s it in my mind. Other than Keller I don’t even care if they spend.
I have him as a B. I think his approach (and IMO sales pitch when hired) was a complete tear down (which including tanking to acquire more assets) and restart and I see real progress. While the MLB team was painfully bad, I prefer the higher picks and hope vs. winning 10 more games in his early years. Development has been a mixed bag but having 3 high school pitchers progressing well is way above average IMO since that profile tends to be a crap shoot. As close as they (Chandler, Solo, et al) feel, they still have much to accomplish including likely MLB break-in challenges. Hitting side I am not as optimistic but if we flash back 12 months ago Peggy looked like he may have peaked and there were even some hitting questions around Hank and they both are now in the MLB growing pains stage which is good progress. However, Endy went from hitting stud to decent. Hank's position development (wherever that may be) is my biggest beef. Ben's biggest challenge is still ahead of him, how does he continue to supplement the roster at the MLB level to make them a legit contender (likely pushed to 2025 IMO although would love to hang around in wild card race in 2024). That includes adding free agents as well as leveraging our prospect depth in trades. I still look as the Rays as the model for a team in the Pittsburgh market so decisions on Keller / Bednar are looming.
In the AFL, the Salt River Rafters lost a close one to Surprise 3-2. Jase Bowen homered and drove in the 2 runs. Bins also had a hit from the DH, and Brannigan went hitless. Both teams only had 4 hits apiece. Flowers and Samaniego saw action, but both struggled with their control. Sam took the loss giving up a run in the 8th.
I went with a D because of one major issue I see: prospect development. To not have Davis catching innings in a lost season? None of the hitter prospects took steps forward aside from maybe Triolo. Developing Termarr into a TTO hitter? Stubborn commitment to Andy Haines?
I gave Cherington a B. Big picture, there is more high end talent in the organization than there has been in many years. I especially appreciated the fact that he didn’t get cute with the draft this year and took one of the three best players available. In Skenes, Chandler, and Johnson they have the potential for a strong foundation around three stars.
Will it all come together? How is the development system? Will he bring in the right free agents the way Huntington did in 2013? (Or the way BC himself did for the Red Sox?) There are still a ton of questions and it could still go south again. But this was a solid year for BC.
BC did many things right, which is reflected in the 14 win improvement despite losing Cruz for essentially the entire season. However, I only gave him a C because he refused to deviate from the playbook when the team got off to a hot start.
He never believed the team was good enough to compete, and said as much, even when it appeared maybe they were.
Let’s hope next year, BC will be bold enough to pivot when the team needs to, in order to give the team the best chance to succeed.
Never believing that the team was good enough to compete was smart on his part. Our Rotation was paper thin and our reserves were not going to be capable of holding the Rotation together. The year began as a transition period where many of our top prospects were going to see action early and often. Those things and Cruz going down for an unknown long period of time was the tipping point. After the experience gained in 2023 and the return of a healthy Oneil Cruz, the team is more ready to compete in 2024.
The Rotation is still thin, but Bido, Ortiz, and Priester are all more experienced, BRU, Burrows, and Kranick are returning, and Jared Jones and others are very close. And, the lineup is set - Rodriguez, Delay, Davis, Joe, 'Cutch, Hayes, Cruz, Peguero, Bae, Triolo, Suwinski, Reynolds and possibly Canaan Smith-Njigba. That's 13 position players. Chances are that Peguero could be at AAA for the first few months, and we start with only 12 position players and 14 Pitchers.
Every year there are “surprise” teams who compete for playoff spots. Pirates could’ve been one of those teams if only management had tried. He should’ve encouraged his players rather than using his bully pulpit to say “not this year.” And then made moves to squeeze more wins, rather than playing negative value players like Hedges way longer than they deserved just because that was the plan coming out of ST.
I don't think he was wrong to not push chips in for this year and this roster but I do think he was wrong to say aloud "we don't think this team is good enough to compete this year". Imagine being the 25 guys playing every day after hearing that.
For 2023, I thought Ben Cherrington was an A. The FA signings were VG overall with 'Cutch, Joe, Santana, Hill, and Velasquez leading the way. A few injuries to Choi and the LHRP (Garcia) dropped them from an Excellent rating. Offseason/inseason pickups of Dauri Moreta, Jose Hernandez, and Ryan Borucki were key moves to solidify the BP. Almost no AAAA players picked up until after the injuries started at the beginning of the season.
Bringing up many of our best prospects turned this franchise into one heading upwards, and the developmental program of the Bucs seems to have turned the corner. Reynolds signed long term was big and the names of Bae, Triolo, Peguero, Rodriguez, and Davis are already set for the future. Biggest bonehead move was extending Shelton at the quickest possible moment. Hopefully he is only extended one year. Of course, I saw BC as the de facto Manager of the Pirates in 2023 through the trades and promotions - a puppet master. Shelton was simply the guy in place in the dugout. That will have to change in 2024 and somebody capable placed in charge.
I’m not convinced Shelton is the guy to lead the team to a championship either. However, he showed improvement from previous seasons in many areas, and the team played hard for him all the way through the season.
This year is a critical year, as we’ll find out if he’s going to continue shoring up his weaknesses, or continue not being good enough consistently enough.
The Pirates need to dump Shelton and promote Don Kelly. Great background as a local boy who understands what 'burghers want out of a team. All the best connections with Neil Walker and the Walker family, and playing in Detroit under Dave Dombrowski and Jim Leyland during their tenure in Detroit when they were a highly successful team and their World Series year of 2012.
I no longer live in the 'burgh (left when the steel industry died), but the Pirates need to be more of a local draw like how the Steelers and Penguins have cultivated their fanbase.
Understanding and explaining the process isnt an excuse. only in a yinzer region like western pa do we have such entitled fans that so completely have no understanding about sports economics. baseball isnt the nhl and its not the nfl. there is no equal footing. in this sport, a teardown and rebuild is often necessary and its the process you use to judge it not immediate average or better results. in our market,.500 isnt average, it is above average. This year is stark and obvious improvement even under huge injuries, so its hard to not give average grades here. when you are competing with markets 3x bigger the hill to climb is that much higher. you may not like reality but you do have to live in it.
Until the PIrates have one Cherington draft pick in their starting lineup every day, the best grade he could hope for is incomplete, and that is the grade I give him. He will be entering his 5th season as GM. The excuses for losing expire next season. Only in Pirates land, where the expectations have been lowered into the cellar, is finishing with a -98 run differential and 10 games below .500 a significant achievement. All he has achieved is to move the gauge from abysmal to poor. Average is .500, and they are still 10 games away from average.
Next year, no one should judge him on the promise of A-ball prospects, or how many whiffs Skenes gets on his curveball in AAA. In his 5th season, the only measure is success at the MLB level. If he manages to get to .500, he will get a C. If he gets close to .500, he gets a D. Anything less is a failing grade. No more excuses.
I'm certainly not advocating for BC, however...
Davis after being called up was an everyday player until he got injured. He was an unmitigated disaster, but he still was an everyday player.
Skenes does not throw a curve. He should be getting whiffs at the MLB level. Watching a guy like Wheeler dominate the post-season is something we hope Skenes becomes...he has that Wheeler type of talent.
Yeah... I know Skenes' repertoire. I used the curve as example to illustrate his developing a solid 4th pitch to illustrate the development of players in general.
Of course, the Pirates can put anyone they want in the starting lineup. They could fill it with Cherington draft picks if they wanted. The point is someone who actually belongs in the starting lineup. The Davis thing is bad... very bad.. and casts the entire organization in a dim light.
With Shelton, I am willing to be a little patient. He was a first-time manager when the Pirates hired him. He had mostly been a hitting instructor and didn't think much about pitch sequencing, pitcher-batter matchups, or bullpen management before. So he gets some time to acclimate himself. Cherington has already been a GM. There should be no learning curve. Isn't that why the Pirates hired him? He had experience? So these types of absurd player development issues as we see with Davis are inexcusable.
what part of it is inexcusable exactly? 1. we find out at the end of the season that the hand issue is why he didnt get time at catcher 2. cherington wasnt a GM in a small market. if you think his previous experience readied him for this you arent that bright. wanna see what epstein or cashman would do here, theyd fall flat on their faces. A GMs job is to accumulate talent and allow it to develop, and then fill gaps when necessary from surpluses to.create a winning team. that first part takes YEARS, and is basically complete. next year is that transitional phase where we get to see how well he fills holes from surpluses. keeping the right players and moving the wrong ones to create a winning team.
Begrudgingly I gave GM a B. Liked the Cutch signing and he did what I expected. Didnt like Santana but he played great. Hill was as expected. Hated VV but he looked good until injury. Hated Hedges and he was even worse than my super low expectations. Joe was a nice pickup. Hernandez was a great Rule 5 pick. A few nice waiver claims etc. But most important of all, he did the right thing and drafted Skenes!
Nutting signed Cutch. GMBC had already blown him off.
I think if JB and VV stayed healthy his report card would be all A’s and B’s. In sports there is always a lot of “ifs” but we have so many “ifs” that the law of averages is in the favor of the PBC.
Very few teams have so many high picks in their system (Davis, Stenes, Termarr, Nicky G) and big trade pieces (Endy, Peggy) that haven’t even contributed yet and they still played competitive baseball in 2023.
I’m sure a few guys will bust, a few will take a step forward, a few will need TJ, whatever, but the next 5+ years overall look encouraging.
My off-season wish list is 1) extend Keller;
2) sign or trade for a solid LHH 1B; and sign 2 FA starters (one being a lefty). That’s it in my mind. Other than Keller I don’t even care if they spend.
I have him as a B. I think his approach (and IMO sales pitch when hired) was a complete tear down (which including tanking to acquire more assets) and restart and I see real progress. While the MLB team was painfully bad, I prefer the higher picks and hope vs. winning 10 more games in his early years. Development has been a mixed bag but having 3 high school pitchers progressing well is way above average IMO since that profile tends to be a crap shoot. As close as they (Chandler, Solo, et al) feel, they still have much to accomplish including likely MLB break-in challenges. Hitting side I am not as optimistic but if we flash back 12 months ago Peggy looked like he may have peaked and there were even some hitting questions around Hank and they both are now in the MLB growing pains stage which is good progress. However, Endy went from hitting stud to decent. Hank's position development (wherever that may be) is my biggest beef. Ben's biggest challenge is still ahead of him, how does he continue to supplement the roster at the MLB level to make them a legit contender (likely pushed to 2025 IMO although would love to hang around in wild card race in 2024). That includes adding free agents as well as leveraging our prospect depth in trades. I still look as the Rays as the model for a team in the Pittsburgh market so decisions on Keller / Bednar are looming.
In the AFL, the Salt River Rafters lost a close one to Surprise 3-2. Jase Bowen homered and drove in the 2 runs. Bins also had a hit from the DH, and Brannigan went hitless. Both teams only had 4 hits apiece. Flowers and Samaniego saw action, but both struggled with their control. Sam took the loss giving up a run in the 8th.
I went with a D because of one major issue I see: prospect development. To not have Davis catching innings in a lost season? None of the hitter prospects took steps forward aside from maybe Triolo. Developing Termarr into a TTO hitter? Stubborn commitment to Andy Haines?
I gave Cherington a B. Big picture, there is more high end talent in the organization than there has been in many years. I especially appreciated the fact that he didn’t get cute with the draft this year and took one of the three best players available. In Skenes, Chandler, and Johnson they have the potential for a strong foundation around three stars.
Will it all come together? How is the development system? Will he bring in the right free agents the way Huntington did in 2013? (Or the way BC himself did for the Red Sox?) There are still a ton of questions and it could still go south again. But this was a solid year for BC.
BC did many things right, which is reflected in the 14 win improvement despite losing Cruz for essentially the entire season. However, I only gave him a C because he refused to deviate from the playbook when the team got off to a hot start.
He never believed the team was good enough to compete, and said as much, even when it appeared maybe they were.
Let’s hope next year, BC will be bold enough to pivot when the team needs to, in order to give the team the best chance to succeed.
Never believing that the team was good enough to compete was smart on his part. Our Rotation was paper thin and our reserves were not going to be capable of holding the Rotation together. The year began as a transition period where many of our top prospects were going to see action early and often. Those things and Cruz going down for an unknown long period of time was the tipping point. After the experience gained in 2023 and the return of a healthy Oneil Cruz, the team is more ready to compete in 2024.
The Rotation is still thin, but Bido, Ortiz, and Priester are all more experienced, BRU, Burrows, and Kranick are returning, and Jared Jones and others are very close. And, the lineup is set - Rodriguez, Delay, Davis, Joe, 'Cutch, Hayes, Cruz, Peguero, Bae, Triolo, Suwinski, Reynolds and possibly Canaan Smith-Njigba. That's 13 position players. Chances are that Peguero could be at AAA for the first few months, and we start with only 12 position players and 14 Pitchers.
Every year there are “surprise” teams who compete for playoff spots. Pirates could’ve been one of those teams if only management had tried. He should’ve encouraged his players rather than using his bully pulpit to say “not this year.” And then made moves to squeeze more wins, rather than playing negative value players like Hedges way longer than they deserved just because that was the plan coming out of ST.
I don't think he was wrong to not push chips in for this year and this roster but I do think he was wrong to say aloud "we don't think this team is good enough to compete this year". Imagine being the 25 guys playing every day after hearing that.
For 2023, I thought Ben Cherrington was an A. The FA signings were VG overall with 'Cutch, Joe, Santana, Hill, and Velasquez leading the way. A few injuries to Choi and the LHRP (Garcia) dropped them from an Excellent rating. Offseason/inseason pickups of Dauri Moreta, Jose Hernandez, and Ryan Borucki were key moves to solidify the BP. Almost no AAAA players picked up until after the injuries started at the beginning of the season.
Bringing up many of our best prospects turned this franchise into one heading upwards, and the developmental program of the Bucs seems to have turned the corner. Reynolds signed long term was big and the names of Bae, Triolo, Peguero, Rodriguez, and Davis are already set for the future. Biggest bonehead move was extending Shelton at the quickest possible moment. Hopefully he is only extended one year. Of course, I saw BC as the de facto Manager of the Pirates in 2023 through the trades and promotions - a puppet master. Shelton was simply the guy in place in the dugout. That will have to change in 2024 and somebody capable placed in charge.
I’m not convinced Shelton is the guy to lead the team to a championship either. However, he showed improvement from previous seasons in many areas, and the team played hard for him all the way through the season.
This year is a critical year, as we’ll find out if he’s going to continue shoring up his weaknesses, or continue not being good enough consistently enough.
The Pirates need to dump Shelton and promote Don Kelly. Great background as a local boy who understands what 'burghers want out of a team. All the best connections with Neil Walker and the Walker family, and playing in Detroit under Dave Dombrowski and Jim Leyland during their tenure in Detroit when they were a highly successful team and their World Series year of 2012.
Again with the local boy garbage.
You might get your wish.
I no longer live in the 'burgh (left when the steel industry died), but the Pirates need to be more of a local draw like how the Steelers and Penguins have cultivated their fanbase.
Did you work in the steel industry?
Don't the Pirates have the most local draw with Bednar and Neil Walker in the booth?
Maybe you're counting Kenny Pickett but Bednar is actually good.
What does that even mean? Are the Steelers and Penguins overflowing with local talent? The answer is a firm no.