Brewers re-sign Miley and sign Joe Ross. Got a nice home-town discount on Miley. Cards, Reds, Brewers each addressing their pitching. Reports are that Pirates suite in Nashville has "Do Not Disturb" sign on door.
Jones makes me nervous as a kid who gets by solely on stuff and yet against AAA competition neither of his lauded pitches ranked anywhere close to the league leaders. Super disappointing to see the actual data on his pitches and not just hear the eye test.
I don't think it's at all a stretch to say most if not all clubs have some middle reliever right now with as good of quality FB and SL as Jared Jones. Big league pitchers are impossibly filthy.
What does Jones have the separates himself from them, will be the question he has to answer over the coming years.
what was the name of that the high projected high school amatuer pick that Boras convinced to pitch overseas instead of go to college? it was a few years ago - - I forget his name and want to check up on him
He hasn’t done well. Fangraphs has a good long write up on players in the international leagues. Stewart is rated a 35, and has a mediocre fastball and poor control, per the write-up.
According to Stumpf, Oneil Cruz has been playing instructional league games in the Dominican and Shelton said the video looked good. That’s actually bigger than anything that could come out of Nashville.
Clearly expectations remain pretty low for most fans, which has become the norm and serves ownership very well. It would be nice to think or at least hope that the Pirates might actually go after a couple of bona fide major league pitchers like say Jordan Montgomery, Michael Wacha or someone else with a history of contributing to a winning team instead of grabbing at reclamation projects or even lower. Saying quality free agents don’t want to play for the Pirates is just a bogus argument. Pay them, and they will come.
Doing it would cost some money and a commitment of multiple years but would also send a message to fans and potential sponsors that winning has become a higher priority and paradoxically might actually make the Pirates more money in both the short and long run through ticket sales and sponsorships. It would also require a vision of a winning team in Pittsburgh, which I’m not sure ownership or even most fans really believe possible given how things have gone. I haven’t gotten to the point where I think it could happen or even to the point of hoping it might, but I can still dream and isn’t that what a Pirate fan is supposed to do during the off season?
There are plenty of pitchers out there that were once good, but bad in the last year or two. One of the things that the Pirates have been successful with are signing guys that look washed up, then seeing better than expected results. If the Pirates are in on Flaherty, I am confident they think they can fix him. As good as he was in 2019 (196 in 135 hits .97 whip in 33 starts) and going 9-2 in 2021, I think this could be a good move.
Rumor mill says pirates are interested in Flaherty on a “short term deal” & Braves want to flip Marco Gonzales after the Kelenic trade. A decent lefty bounce back candidate? M’s already retained some of his $12.5 salary for 2024, could convince the braves to knock the price down further for Nickels.
RHP Jack Flaherty - 1/$14mil
LHP Marco Gonzales from Braves for our ~20th best prospect
I was thinking it would take much less. I really don't see how Gonzales fits on the Braves 25 man roster especially if the Braves add another starter which seems to be their plan. It feels like a salary dump so if Bucs can meet half way on paying what is left and throw in this years version of Nick Garcia maybe that would work? Gonzales feels like long odds to actually contribute to any team IMO so I am game for a flyer.
I'd like to see us sign Flaherty, and I'd like it to be a two-year deal or a one-year deal with a team option for a second year. We don't need a longer commitment, but every signing or trade we make this offseason should be with an eye to '25. It's tempting to think we'll be fine in '25 with getting Oviedo back and so many high-upside arms in the pipeline, but pitching never seems to work out the way you expect it to. Even if the team option is for an unusually high amount (e.g., $24MM), it at least gives us the opportunity to keep a player that we help get back on track.
Reading the comments on that video is enlightening. Cards' media, Cards' fans, and obviously the Cards' front office had had enough of his self-absorbed, childish personality. He was and will be a locker-room cancer: just what the Pirates need. The only good takeaway from this is that signing Flaherty may be the death knell for Cherington, because Flaherty will need about 5 minutes to infuriate the few remaining Pirates' fans.
I understand that Bauer is innocent of the most serious allegations, but 4 different women have made similiar statements about him. I like Bauer as a pitcher, but the last thing that the Pirates need is another pitcher involved in a sex scandal. Find someone else.
I like the team option idea, it just seems these one year prove it deals are almost always the other direction - player option. I say go for it, but I wouldn't want that to be the deal breaker (Demanding a team option).
I like the 2 year or 1+1 minimum as well. I have to think that the Pirates would want a 2nd year for some reasons you are saying and honestly, if he rebounds well a QO. Also for Flaherty who would then re-enter free agency at 29. I endorse both moves of just taking Gonzales for a flier (can Braves eat $4.5M?) and paying money to get Jack.
I'd actually be surprisingly ok with the offeason then if it ended with them signing Bauer too to round out. Rotation becomes Keller, Flaherty, Gonzales, Bauer, then the winner of Ro / Ortiz / Quinn until the arrival of our pitching prospects Skenes, Jones, Solometo, Big Bubba.
If we sign Flaherty it would make it even more hilarious if we signed Bauer with one pitcher being super social justicey on twitter and kneeling during the anthem and the other having been canceled.
One thing is for sure with Jared Jones - the Pirates have allowed him to move forward at his own pace and he has had success. He did well at A+ in 2022 and then in AA (44.1 IP) and AAA (71.1 IP) in 2023 he had 115.2 IP total last year with 132 K. At AAA alone in 71.1 IP he had 31 BB/85 K. It's not the number of pitches he can throw, but the number of pitches he can throw effectively. We need some people to step up and I cannot think of anyone better right now to step up to MLB and join that Pirate Rotation to start 2024. Still only 22, but Jones seems to be a mature and confident 22.
I read the exact opposite sentiment on FA target Jack Flaherty. Terrible body language on the mound. Nibbler even though he has good stuff. No confidence.
I appreciate the question about Jones and the excellent response. I’m super high on Jones, not blind to the shortcomings, but bullish on his strengths and I expect those strengths will get better. Hoping the new assistant GM focuses on guys like him.
If you want a comp, check out Spencer Strider. In 2021 he was a two pitch pitcher - FB almost 70% and Slider about 30%. In 2022 he developed a 3rd pitch - a Changeup that he threw a whopping 4.8%. In 2023 it was more of the same, FB, Slider, and just enough of a 3rd pitch to keep the statisticians happy. Location, Location, Location
Strider's long-term success will depend upon developing another pitch. I think that In today's game, starters can get by with 2 pitches for a little while if the velocity is very good and the slider bites like a shark. Once one thing starts to go a little, seems like it all starts to fall apart. Does the name Chris Archer ring a bell? Lost a couple MPH on his fastball and went from solid starter to a nobody immediately.
Ortiz 4 seamer is garbage and Strider’s is one of the best. Last year Ortiz’ slider was as close to garbage as you can get, Strider’s one of the best. I’m not out on Ortiz just yet, his sinker seems above average and if the slider goes back to what it was in 2022 he migth be ok. Oh yeah, he can’t command his change, but the rare times he does is another average to above pitch.
No different than guys pointing to Kyle Hendricks as proof velo doesn't matter. I mean, sure, fine, now go teach all your pitchers plus-plus changeups and plus-plus command or else they're gonna get rocked. Best of luck.
Brewers re-sign Miley and sign Joe Ross. Got a nice home-town discount on Miley. Cards, Reds, Brewers each addressing their pitching. Reports are that Pirates suite in Nashville has "Do Not Disturb" sign on door.
Jones makes me nervous as a kid who gets by solely on stuff and yet against AAA competition neither of his lauded pitches ranked anywhere close to the league leaders. Super disappointing to see the actual data on his pitches and not just hear the eye test.
I don't think it's at all a stretch to say most if not all clubs have some middle reliever right now with as good of quality FB and SL as Jared Jones. Big league pitchers are impossibly filthy.
What does Jones have the separates himself from them, will be the question he has to answer over the coming years.
Fedde getting close with a mystery team. I think it's us but am probably wrong.
Not us :(
For 2 years $10M we can't do $13?!@
what was the name of that the high projected high school amatuer pick that Boras convinced to pitch overseas instead of go to college? it was a few years ago - - I forget his name and want to check up on him
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=stewar004car
Carter Stewart.
I think he has 1 more season under contract over there. Don't really know how he has done.
He hasn’t done well. Fangraphs has a good long write up on players in the international leagues. Stewart is rated a 35, and has a mediocre fastball and poor control, per the write-up.
Was coming on to post this! And you get a Harrumph outta me!
According to Stumpf, Oneil Cruz has been playing instructional league games in the Dominican and Shelton said the video looked good. That’s actually bigger than anything that could come out of Nashville.
You get a harrumph outta me for this one!
Frisky Dingo reference?
Blazing Saddles scene with Gov. Lepetomane’s office.
Oh I bet Frisky Dingo was referencing that haha
Clearly expectations remain pretty low for most fans, which has become the norm and serves ownership very well. It would be nice to think or at least hope that the Pirates might actually go after a couple of bona fide major league pitchers like say Jordan Montgomery, Michael Wacha or someone else with a history of contributing to a winning team instead of grabbing at reclamation projects or even lower. Saying quality free agents don’t want to play for the Pirates is just a bogus argument. Pay them, and they will come.
Doing it would cost some money and a commitment of multiple years but would also send a message to fans and potential sponsors that winning has become a higher priority and paradoxically might actually make the Pirates more money in both the short and long run through ticket sales and sponsorships. It would also require a vision of a winning team in Pittsburgh, which I’m not sure ownership or even most fans really believe possible given how things have gone. I haven’t gotten to the point where I think it could happen or even to the point of hoping it might, but I can still dream and isn’t that what a Pirate fan is supposed to do during the off season?
There are plenty of pitchers out there that were once good, but bad in the last year or two. One of the things that the Pirates have been successful with are signing guys that look washed up, then seeing better than expected results. If the Pirates are in on Flaherty, I am confident they think they can fix him. As good as he was in 2019 (196 in 135 hits .97 whip in 33 starts) and going 9-2 in 2021, I think this could be a good move.
Rumor mill says pirates are interested in Flaherty on a “short term deal” & Braves want to flip Marco Gonzales after the Kelenic trade. A decent lefty bounce back candidate? M’s already retained some of his $12.5 salary for 2024, could convince the braves to knock the price down further for Nickels.
RHP Jack Flaherty - 1/$14mil
LHP Marco Gonzales from Braves for our ~20th best prospect
Underwhelming but i could see it happening.
Gonzales shouldn’t cost a real prospect. Not if Boba Nutt picks up most of the remaining salary.
I think they´d go for half his salary in exchange for Carter Bins
If Atl throws in Jordy Mercer, it’s a deal.
the only team mercer ever hit against is atlanta
.348avg .852ops
Gonzales for gonzales swap?
Maybe a Speedy Gonzales poster.
I was thinking it would take much less. I really don't see how Gonzales fits on the Braves 25 man roster especially if the Braves add another starter which seems to be their plan. It feels like a salary dump so if Bucs can meet half way on paying what is left and throw in this years version of Nick Garcia maybe that would work? Gonzales feels like long odds to actually contribute to any team IMO so I am game for a flyer.
I'd rather keep our Gonzales
I'd like to see us sign Flaherty, and I'd like it to be a two-year deal or a one-year deal with a team option for a second year. We don't need a longer commitment, but every signing or trade we make this offseason should be with an eye to '25. It's tempting to think we'll be fine in '25 with getting Oviedo back and so many high-upside arms in the pipeline, but pitching never seems to work out the way you expect it to. Even if the team option is for an unusually high amount (e.g., $24MM), it at least gives us the opportunity to keep a player that we help get back on track.
Flaherty has sucked donkey balls since 2019
Everything about Flaherty screams "headcase..." so, of course, the Pirates want to sign him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-pl96iZiXs
real whiner here
Reading the comments on that video is enlightening. Cards' media, Cards' fans, and obviously the Cards' front office had had enough of his self-absorbed, childish personality. He was and will be a locker-room cancer: just what the Pirates need. The only good takeaway from this is that signing Flaherty may be the death knell for Cherington, because Flaherty will need about 5 minutes to infuriate the few remaining Pirates' fans.
Yeah if you're going to ruin the clubhouse with Flaherty you really may as well sign Bauer, too.
I understand that Bauer is innocent of the most serious allegations, but 4 different women have made similiar statements about him. I like Bauer as a pitcher, but the last thing that the Pirates need is another pitcher involved in a sex scandal. Find someone else.
Copycat grifters taking a swing at a guy with a tarnished reputation
He was decent in 21. But I think the injuries he’s had since 2019 have taken a toll.
I like the team option idea, it just seems these one year prove it deals are almost always the other direction - player option. I say go for it, but I wouldn't want that to be the deal breaker (Demanding a team option).
I would like someone who won't be already considered trade bait as soon as they sign. So I'm also down with this idea.
I like the 2 year or 1+1 minimum as well. I have to think that the Pirates would want a 2nd year for some reasons you are saying and honestly, if he rebounds well a QO. Also for Flaherty who would then re-enter free agency at 29. I endorse both moves of just taking Gonzales for a flier (can Braves eat $4.5M?) and paying money to get Jack.
I'd actually be surprisingly ok with the offeason then if it ended with them signing Bauer too to round out. Rotation becomes Keller, Flaherty, Gonzales, Bauer, then the winner of Ro / Ortiz / Quinn until the arrival of our pitching prospects Skenes, Jones, Solometo, Big Bubba.
If we sign Flaherty it would make it even more hilarious if we signed Bauer with one pitcher being super social justicey on twitter and kneeling during the anthem and the other having been canceled.
One thing is for sure with Jared Jones - the Pirates have allowed him to move forward at his own pace and he has had success. He did well at A+ in 2022 and then in AA (44.1 IP) and AAA (71.1 IP) in 2023 he had 115.2 IP total last year with 132 K. At AAA alone in 71.1 IP he had 31 BB/85 K. It's not the number of pitches he can throw, but the number of pitches he can throw effectively. We need some people to step up and I cannot think of anyone better right now to step up to MLB and join that Pirate Rotation to start 2024. Still only 22, but Jones seems to be a mature and confident 22.
I read the exact opposite sentiment on FA target Jack Flaherty. Terrible body language on the mound. Nibbler even though he has good stuff. No confidence.
I felt the same way about Mike Burrows before his injury. He's always had a good mound presence.
He seems like a good of a bet as any for a young guy to contribute meaningfully to the staff this year.
I appreciate the question about Jones and the excellent response. I’m super high on Jones, not blind to the shortcomings, but bullish on his strengths and I expect those strengths will get better. Hoping the new assistant GM focuses on guys like him.
If you want a comp, check out Spencer Strider. In 2021 he was a two pitch pitcher - FB almost 70% and Slider about 30%. In 2022 he developed a 3rd pitch - a Changeup that he threw a whopping 4.8%. In 2023 it was more of the same, FB, Slider, and just enough of a 3rd pitch to keep the statisticians happy. Location, Location, Location
Careful, I made that comp before!
Strider feels like the exception though, right? I mean maybe Jones can repeat that success, but also outside of Strider there aren't many examples.
Strider's long-term success will depend upon developing another pitch. I think that In today's game, starters can get by with 2 pitches for a little while if the velocity is very good and the slider bites like a shark. Once one thing starts to go a little, seems like it all starts to fall apart. Does the name Chris Archer ring a bell? Lost a couple MPH on his fastball and went from solid starter to a nobody immediately.
Luis Ortiz has the exact same pitch setup as Strider but doesn't locate as well
Ortiz 4 seamer is garbage and Strider’s is one of the best. Last year Ortiz’ slider was as close to garbage as you can get, Strider’s one of the best. I’m not out on Ortiz just yet, his sinker seems above average and if the slider goes back to what it was in 2022 he migth be ok. Oh yeah, he can’t command his change, but the rare times he does is another average to above pitch.
Now do 2022 Ortiz
Im just not convinced that the strider model is able to be replicated. I would love if he had a third pitch but i guess there could be success without
The Strider concept fits.. but he has two super elite pitches. I think that why it is so hard to replicate. However, 70% of Strider would't hurt!
Bingo!
No different than guys pointing to Kyle Hendricks as proof velo doesn't matter. I mean, sure, fine, now go teach all your pitchers plus-plus changeups and plus-plus command or else they're gonna get rocked. Best of luck.