We can be frustrated and annoyed and make fun of Ke’Bryan Hayes all we want, but this article confirms that his back is completely f’ed up with no obvious solution. I don’t think this is excuse making —- this is the reality of what he’s dealing with:
Agree. He should probably go on the DL for the balance of the season.
All I’m suggesting is that this isn’t about Haines or blocking Hayes from Nunnally or some flaw in Hayes’ approach. The guy appears to have a serious and chronic health condition that is preventing him from performing up to standard. Which is what I’ve suspected all along. So let’s look at the problem through that lens instead of trashing the victim, which is the common approach in this forum.
Yea, I’m all for the DL. It’s getting old watching him play. The guy is a professional… if he plays like dog shit, then the criticism is warranted. Criticism also falls to the Pirates organization for running him out there when he has no chance to succeed.
I’m guessing Alika. The ostensible reason for bringing him up was they weren’t sure Cruz would be going back to short yet, but he did. Why call up McKinney and not Yorke or Cook, I dunno, except it seemed like the stupid thing to do so naturally they did it.
Yeah, I just don't see them dfa'ing Alika, definitely think he should be heading back to Indy though. Cherington doesn't make moves that make much sense.
That dream is still alive for every team except the White Sox and what else can a Pirate fan do but hope. I fear your glasses may be too dark though and reality is passing by unnoticed.
Termarr just crushed his 12th homer of the year, then took forever to round the bases. It was a 41 second video, I figured there was a second better view. There wasn't. If you check the video (I recommend it to see how far it went), you can stop watching five seconds in if you want to save time.
I watched that performance, and I hope that young man got a talking to by his manager. He hardly moved after hitting the ball and walked part way to first before barely jogging around the bases. He even stopped rounding second to point to something in right field. That kind of show boating and trying to show up an opponent has no place in baseball at any level. I know he’s barely 20 y/o but that’s old enough to act like an adult before some pissed off pitcher “accidentally” drills him in the back.
I was just in the car a moment ago listening to game. Blass was telling stories of Nolan Ryan, one of which was that if you took too long to circle the bases after a HR, guy in the on deck circle was getting drilled.
I'd expect the same from Bob Gibson. The thing about pitchers intentionally hitting batters, that would be a crime, the crime being assault. When Gibson commented on Bonds wearing armor on his right arm, his promise of assaulting Bonds -- if he had the opportunity to do so -- and the approval of knuckledraggers that followed Gibson's comments tells us all we need to know about the commentators.
Gibson only hit 102 batters in his 17 year career. He was known as intimidating and wouldn't let RH batters own the inner half of the plate, but he's only 98th in career HBPs. Five current guys have more: Cueto, Scherzer, Verlander, Sale and in the top 10 all-time MLB list: Charlie Morton. Ryan isn't even in top 10 (Randy Johnson is).
My buddy got to talk to Gibson once for several minutes one-on-one at some sparsely attended conference or something. He spoke at length about how starting pitchers back then didn't have to use max effort to get through lineups 3+ times, and how that's just not possible now, either because hitters are just too talented or because the pitchers now just don't know how to manage that effectively, or some combination of both, resulting in more injuries now than in his day. Whether true or not, I thought that was fascinating.
I don't understand the painfully slow trots, especially people who say "let them have fun". Hitting a home run isn't fun? Getting to the dugout to celebrate with your teammates isn't fun? Then there's the part about someone possibly getting hit because a pro athletes makes it around the bases slower than my mom. If guys want to do that and other players are fine with it, then whatever, but don't give me a 41 second video with two seconds of action. I don't need to see players stroll around the bases for 35 seconds. I can assume they touched home plate and the run counted.
I agree on the slow HR trots--I like when players can show their personality but simply for the sake of time and wanting action, I'm not a fan of slow HR trots.
In any case, such would seem to relate to organizational culture and Termarr wouldn't be taking 41 seconds to round the bases if it wasn't acceptable with the organization. I.e., if there's a problem with a slow trot in a relatively meaningless A+ game, it should be with the organization and not the player.
I think MLB has some weird idea that letting players do whatever they want during home run trots will bring in more fans. They embrace the choreography, the bat flips, while coming up with severe punishments for anyone who throws at a batter after one of these displays.
My cousin's husband played pro ball and runs a training facility, while also coaching a team. I first mentioned this at least 2-3 years ago, but he mentioned that these kids were basically getting progressively worse at playing as they got better at bat flips and dancing. All of a sudden, every kid has a home run trot choreographed and none of them are hitting homers.
I played basketball a lot after I hurt my arm and couldn't play baseball again. I used to call stuff like that degenerating in the game "the SportsCenter effect". Someone would do something crazy in an NBA game and then the next 2-3 days degenerated into sloppy games and everyone trying the shot/move.
I then played roller hockey and I saw a guy behind the net flip a puck onto his stick, then do a wrap around shot and score. I tried it the next day and scored the same way, then watched it ruin our games as everyone tried to do something crazy of their own. I was so disappointed in myself because I always hated the SportsCenter effect in basketball games, yet here I am starting it in hockey.
It's a long way to say that there are negative effects to practicing things that aren't important and very self-centered. My cousin's husband just stopped coaching after 14 seasons, but he said his 11-12 year olds this past year were significantly worse than the average 8-10 year olds when he started. They all have home run trots for no reason though, as none of them are hitting anything over the fence.
The best outcome would be all 3 become above average hitters with at least 2 being able to handle a second position. Firstbase and right field along with the DH could keep bats that are sorely needed in the lineup. Also opens the trade route if the right opportunity comes about.
Edward Olivares and Bryan De La Cruz have combined for zero extra-base hits in their last 134 plate appearances for the Pirates. That's not ideal production out of two right fielders
I would be interested to read a piece or even a series detailing their approach to acquiring and developing offensive talent. I’d be interested to see what could be learned regarding what their approach is and what they are trying to accomplish. Genuinely puzzled by their approach.
It would certainly seem that way. But if you trust your ability to scout and develop, cost becomes of lesser importance. Plenty of examples throughout baseball, including in our own recent history, of signing quality hitters to bargain extensions. You just have to know who to extend (not Hayes). And if you can’t extend a guy you have to be able to draft and develop, or identify and trade for quality replacements.
The “but the defense” argument falls flat when you consider he’s going to be about .5 fWAR this year. Even if you use Baseball Reference he figures to be a little over 1 bWAR.
He's an outfielder or dh. Cruz has no business playing shortstop. The margin for error is very slim for this team, we can't afford to have an error machine at short. On the plus side I think it's just he has a focus issue. Most of his errors are just dumb lackadaisical sloppy plays. If he ever gets his head in the game, maybe he'd be ok.
Vendetta? I can't speak for everyone but I'd just like Cruz to stop playing like a rabid baby giraffe and actually understand stuff like when to peal off a play and leave it to Hayes given angles, etc.
Fans of bad teams (like ours) often end up turning on better players on those teams. Minimizing their successes and maximizing their failures.
Cruz is even more of a lightning rod because he’s so talented and the rest of the position players are…not. The guy is 25, coming off an entire year he missed, and he’s still gonna be a 3 win player. That’s good and nothing to sneeze at. If he doesn’t progress beyond this and this is who he is, it will be frustrating. But that’s also production that isn’t easily replaced either.
Cruz can hit a baseball, hard and far. And have an .800+ OPS. And he's improved tremendously too against LHers. But we can't overlook the other facets of his game. Just like with Key, who is the worst hitter in MLB, but we love his glove. We need well-rounded players if we are ever going to be a competitive playoff team......not one dimensional. Maximizing their weaknesses.....?he plays like a high school kid just learning the game and he's 25 yrs old. If you want to give him a pass, your choice.
I’m not giving him a pass, as much as acknowledging that even with all the mistakes he’s made (frustrating ones at that), he’s still a good player and not easy to replace. And as you pointed out, Cruz has made strides regarding some of his weaknesses. Maybe he’ll continue to make those strides next season on defense.
One more thing. If the Bucs need all around players, as you say, maybe they should move on from Reynolds, as his defensive metrics are atrocious this year.
SS is the highest profile position on the field, has the most touches and the most responsibility. A corner OF or 1B is where you can have your defensively challenged players, but not at SS.
He'll lead our position players in WAR so if anything we should keep calling for an extension.
On a related note, Ben said he is our SS. I want him going into '25 as our SS but one reason I liked the IKF deal is that we have a viable option at SS in '25 if Cruz doesn't work out there.
Ben telling him he's "our SS" is telegraphing there'll never be consequences for taking plays off and the mental mistakes. Really genius stuff. I wonder if Ben was using his feminine side more than his masculine one there. We'd have to ask Tim Williams because clearly he's the only expert on that dichotomy in Pirates baseball fandom.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely do not view him as a viable shortstop going forward, and I have zero confidence in the organization properly addressing this glaring problem, but of the myriad reasons we have been uhhh "inconsistent" this year, I'd be far more likely to point to the rotating 4-5 guys who have no business being on a major league roster than one of the few offensive talents we have. While he is a problem at times...hell, even downright maddening at times...I want him on the freaking team!
I'd trade him given this regime is sticking around. I'd keep him if we ended up with a GM and coach who were more focused on their masculine side a la Tim Williams psychobabble instead of Cherington and Shelton being feminine.
amazing how the limits of criticism aren't allowed to extend to the actual baseball field. some people still like watching and talking about baseball instead of "endless" front office melodrama. imagine that.
He has seemed overmatched most of the season and the most logical reason that I can think of for not sending him down to get regular playing time and to reset is that they don’t think he has a major league future anyway.
That's the crazy thing of this season. There are better options in AAA and yet they keep sending guys out there that have zero value and aren't a part of the future anyways. Woodford for God's sake was cut from a historically bad whitesox team and yet we are starting him for some reason, we have a handful of "offensive" players who are truly offensive in that their ops are well below .600.....this is just insanity.
Ump should have sent teams to stay in dugout and cover the mound. 10 min delay. But instead made Woodford pitch thru that. Now Kirby gets a completely treated mound for his inning. Shelton should have been on ump's ass.
We can be frustrated and annoyed and make fun of Ke’Bryan Hayes all we want, but this article confirms that his back is completely f’ed up with no obvious solution. I don’t think this is excuse making —- this is the reality of what he’s dealing with:
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/jason-mackey/2024/08/18/jason-mackey-ke-bryan-hayes-pittsburgh-pirates/stories/202408140140
And yet right there in the article: “Hayes is the type of player I could see getting better somewhere else,” the scout said.
This is what other teams and their scouts think of the Pirates^
If he is out there, still has to find a way to produce.
Agree. He should probably go on the DL for the balance of the season.
All I’m suggesting is that this isn’t about Haines or blocking Hayes from Nunnally or some flaw in Hayes’ approach. The guy appears to have a serious and chronic health condition that is preventing him from performing up to standard. Which is what I’ve suspected all along. So let’s look at the problem through that lens instead of trashing the victim, which is the common approach in this forum.
Cut him then. Tell him to retire. Call it a day.
Yea, I’m all for the DL. It’s getting old watching him play. The guy is a professional… if he plays like dog shit, then the criticism is warranted. Criticism also falls to the Pirates organization for running him out there when he has no chance to succeed.
Remember Ron Wright —- aka the next Harmon Killebrew? He never did anything in the majors due to back problems.
Pirates calling up Billy...
McKinney
supposedly cook is coming up too?
nm, tweet was deleted
Billy "The Cook" McKinney lol
His new nickname
Who is going down?
My guess would be Ryan.
I’m guessing Alika. The ostensible reason for bringing him up was they weren’t sure Cruz would be going back to short yet, but he did. Why call up McKinney and not Yorke or Cook, I dunno, except it seemed like the stupid thing to do so naturally they did it.
Yeah, I just don't see them dfa'ing Alika, definitely think he should be heading back to Indy though. Cherington doesn't make moves that make much sense.
Bizarre move.
McKinney's probably no worse a hitter than BDLC and better than MAT, so there's that.
Also adds a left handed bat. Wonder who's going to the 60 day or gets dfa'd?
Palacios
While Yorke and Cook got the day off, Davis is still mashing. Couple of hits including a homerun both 105mph off the bat.
Anything off of good velo?
Single was an elevated slider in the low 80's. The homerun was a slightly elevated 1st pitch fastball around 93mph.
Maybe a day off so that they're fresh for joining us in Texas ;)
Rose-colored glasses on: Bucs just took 2 of 3 from a playoff contender. If they can take 2 of every 3 going forward... 87 wins and maybe 3rd WC!
Unreasonable? Sure. Unlikely? Definitely. Impossible? No!
Ill take some hopium with ya!
Yeah no chance at that
That dream is still alive for every team except the White Sox and what else can a Pirate fan do but hope. I fear your glasses may be too dark though and reality is passing by unnoticed.
Termarr just crushed his 12th homer of the year, then took forever to round the bases. It was a 41 second video, I figured there was a second better view. There wasn't. If you check the video (I recommend it to see how far it went), you can stop watching five seconds in if you want to save time.
I watched that performance, and I hope that young man got a talking to by his manager. He hardly moved after hitting the ball and walked part way to first before barely jogging around the bases. He even stopped rounding second to point to something in right field. That kind of show boating and trying to show up an opponent has no place in baseball at any level. I know he’s barely 20 y/o but that’s old enough to act like an adult before some pissed off pitcher “accidentally” drills him in the back.
I miss the likes of Barry Sanders, do the truly amazing then hand the ball to the ref, knowing he's been there before and will be there again.
It'd take coaches who weren't small people.
Well said, Doc, but be careful you might be harboring a vendetta against Termarr.
I was just in the car a moment ago listening to game. Blass was telling stories of Nolan Ryan, one of which was that if you took too long to circle the bases after a HR, guy in the on deck circle was getting drilled.
I'd expect the same from Bob Gibson. The thing about pitchers intentionally hitting batters, that would be a crime, the crime being assault. When Gibson commented on Bonds wearing armor on his right arm, his promise of assaulting Bonds -- if he had the opportunity to do so -- and the approval of knuckledraggers that followed Gibson's comments tells us all we need to know about the commentators.
Gibson only hit 102 batters in his 17 year career. He was known as intimidating and wouldn't let RH batters own the inner half of the plate, but he's only 98th in career HBPs. Five current guys have more: Cueto, Scherzer, Verlander, Sale and in the top 10 all-time MLB list: Charlie Morton. Ryan isn't even in top 10 (Randy Johnson is).
My buddy got to talk to Gibson once for several minutes one-on-one at some sparsely attended conference or something. He spoke at length about how starting pitchers back then didn't have to use max effort to get through lineups 3+ times, and how that's just not possible now, either because hitters are just too talented or because the pitchers now just don't know how to manage that effectively, or some combination of both, resulting in more injuries now than in his day. Whether true or not, I thought that was fascinating.
Oh geez.....it tells us there's a competition going on between the white lines. Physical, mental, and skill set. What does it tell you?
I don't understand the painfully slow trots, especially people who say "let them have fun". Hitting a home run isn't fun? Getting to the dugout to celebrate with your teammates isn't fun? Then there's the part about someone possibly getting hit because a pro athletes makes it around the bases slower than my mom. If guys want to do that and other players are fine with it, then whatever, but don't give me a 41 second video with two seconds of action. I don't need to see players stroll around the bases for 35 seconds. I can assume they touched home plate and the run counted.
I am waiting for the guy who shows off by sprinting around the bases after a home run
I agree on the slow HR trots--I like when players can show their personality but simply for the sake of time and wanting action, I'm not a fan of slow HR trots.
In any case, such would seem to relate to organizational culture and Termarr wouldn't be taking 41 seconds to round the bases if it wasn't acceptable with the organization. I.e., if there's a problem with a slow trot in a relatively meaningless A+ game, it should be with the organization and not the player.
I think MLB has some weird idea that letting players do whatever they want during home run trots will bring in more fans. They embrace the choreography, the bat flips, while coming up with severe punishments for anyone who throws at a batter after one of these displays.
My cousin's husband played pro ball and runs a training facility, while also coaching a team. I first mentioned this at least 2-3 years ago, but he mentioned that these kids were basically getting progressively worse at playing as they got better at bat flips and dancing. All of a sudden, every kid has a home run trot choreographed and none of them are hitting homers.
I played basketball a lot after I hurt my arm and couldn't play baseball again. I used to call stuff like that degenerating in the game "the SportsCenter effect". Someone would do something crazy in an NBA game and then the next 2-3 days degenerated into sloppy games and everyone trying the shot/move.
I then played roller hockey and I saw a guy behind the net flip a puck onto his stick, then do a wrap around shot and score. I tried it the next day and scored the same way, then watched it ruin our games as everyone tried to do something crazy of their own. I was so disappointed in myself because I always hated the SportsCenter effect in basketball games, yet here I am starting it in hockey.
It's a long way to say that there are negative effects to practicing things that aren't important and very self-centered. My cousin's husband just stopped coaching after 14 seasons, but he said his 11-12 year olds this past year were significantly worse than the average 8-10 year olds when he started. They all have home run trots for no reason though, as none of them are hitting anything over the fence.
It's raycist to have expectations or talk about respect.
Bart still produces.
The whole Hank and Endy conversation has been totally forgotten and flushed.
The best outcome would be all 3 become above average hitters with at least 2 being able to handle a second position. Firstbase and right field along with the DH could keep bats that are sorely needed in the lineup. Also opens the trade route if the right opportunity comes about.
Maybe Bart can handle 1b.
Let's see if Endy can not get the bat knocked out of his hands.
Edward Olivares and Bryan De La Cruz have combined for zero extra-base hits in their last 134 plate appearances for the Pirates. That's not ideal production out of two right fielders
Just dreadful!
As Cheringtonesque as it gets.
I would be interested to read a piece or even a series detailing their approach to acquiring and developing offensive talent. I’d be interested to see what could be learned regarding what their approach is and what they are trying to accomplish. Genuinely puzzled by their approach.
They think hitters with more than one skill are too expensive. That's their approach.
It would certainly seem that way. But if you trust your ability to scout and develop, cost becomes of lesser importance. Plenty of examples throughout baseball, including in our own recent history, of signing quality hitters to bargain extensions. You just have to know who to extend (not Hayes). And if you can’t extend a guy you have to be able to draft and develop, or identify and trade for quality replacements.
I think these jokers still think they were right to extend Hayes.
The “but the defense” argument falls flat when you consider he’s going to be about .5 fWAR this year. Even if you use Baseball Reference he figures to be a little over 1 bWAR.
Thank you Capper, Cruz just doesn't have high baseball IQ.
The endless Cruz vendetta from you guys is a snooze fest.
He's an outfielder or dh. Cruz has no business playing shortstop. The margin for error is very slim for this team, we can't afford to have an error machine at short. On the plus side I think it's just he has a focus issue. Most of his errors are just dumb lackadaisical sloppy plays. If he ever gets his head in the game, maybe he'd be ok.
Vendetta? I can't speak for everyone but I'd just like Cruz to stop playing like a rabid baby giraffe and actually understand stuff like when to peal off a play and leave it to Hayes given angles, etc.
Fans of bad teams (like ours) often end up turning on better players on those teams. Minimizing their successes and maximizing their failures.
Cruz is even more of a lightning rod because he’s so talented and the rest of the position players are…not. The guy is 25, coming off an entire year he missed, and he’s still gonna be a 3 win player. That’s good and nothing to sneeze at. If he doesn’t progress beyond this and this is who he is, it will be frustrating. But that’s also production that isn’t easily replaced either.
Cruz can hit a baseball, hard and far. And have an .800+ OPS. And he's improved tremendously too against LHers. But we can't overlook the other facets of his game. Just like with Key, who is the worst hitter in MLB, but we love his glove. We need well-rounded players if we are ever going to be a competitive playoff team......not one dimensional. Maximizing their weaknesses.....?he plays like a high school kid just learning the game and he's 25 yrs old. If you want to give him a pass, your choice.
I’m not giving him a pass, as much as acknowledging that even with all the mistakes he’s made (frustrating ones at that), he’s still a good player and not easy to replace. And as you pointed out, Cruz has made strides regarding some of his weaknesses. Maybe he’ll continue to make those strides next season on defense.
One more thing. If the Bucs need all around players, as you say, maybe they should move on from Reynolds, as his defensive metrics are atrocious this year.
SS is the highest profile position on the field, has the most touches and the most responsibility. A corner OF or 1B is where you can have your defensively challenged players, but not at SS.
He'll lead our position players in WAR so if anything we should keep calling for an extension.
On a related note, Ben said he is our SS. I want him going into '25 as our SS but one reason I liked the IKF deal is that we have a viable option at SS in '25 if Cruz doesn't work out there.
2017 Gerrit Cole led their starters in WAR, too, which explains why everyone was totally cool that he got so much better once he left the Pirates.
Ben telling him he's "our SS" is telegraphing there'll never be consequences for taking plays off and the mental mistakes. Really genius stuff. I wonder if Ben was using his feminine side more than his masculine one there. We'd have to ask Tim Williams because clearly he's the only expert on that dichotomy in Pirates baseball fandom.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely do not view him as a viable shortstop going forward, and I have zero confidence in the organization properly addressing this glaring problem, but of the myriad reasons we have been uhhh "inconsistent" this year, I'd be far more likely to point to the rotating 4-5 guys who have no business being on a major league roster than one of the few offensive talents we have. While he is a problem at times...hell, even downright maddening at times...I want him on the freaking team!
I'd trade him given this regime is sticking around. I'd keep him if we ended up with a GM and coach who were more focused on their masculine side a la Tim Williams psychobabble instead of Cherington and Shelton being feminine.
+++++++++++++++++++++
A throwing error and a baserunning error......and it's only the 5th inning.
Endless....
amazing how the limits of criticism aren't allowed to extend to the actual baseball field. some people still like watching and talking about baseball instead of "endless" front office melodrama. imagine that.
The good news is that it's not even half-time and we're only down a touchdown. The bad news is....
Holy Triolo- apparently Jared has forgotten how to play 3rd base. That should be his second error of this game.
He has seemed overmatched most of the season and the most logical reason that I can think of for not sending him down to get regular playing time and to reset is that they don’t think he has a major league future anyway.
That's the crazy thing of this season. There are better options in AAA and yet they keep sending guys out there that have zero value and aren't a part of the future anyways. Woodford for God's sake was cut from a historically bad whitesox team and yet we are starting him for some reason, we have a handful of "offensive" players who are truly offensive in that their ops are well below .600.....this is just insanity.
He’s there for his bat! 🥸
Pretty ugly
Woodford will get lit up by my local high school team if he continues to throw 92 mph middle middle.
well you do live in georgia.
Going to the pen early.......pitch count way up
Wth are the umps waiting on?
Ump should have sent teams to stay in dugout and cover the mound. 10 min delay. But instead made Woodford pitch thru that. Now Kirby gets a completely treated mound for his inning. Shelton should have been on ump's ass.
Shelton would've had to be watching the game.
No need, “ the guys just didn’t execute “
He watches. Just doesn’t understand.
Ever see A Fish Called Wanda?
Woodford hasn't looked as bad as his line, guys had some tough luck this year.
Servais was not happy they were playing in that downpour, you could see that on telecast.
Good to see Cruz focus on the 2 strike pitch /s
Two infield hits already?
Seattle hits .215 as a team
+
Woodford’s .61 whip
Hopefully
=
A win
A Catch22 jinx.....4 hits in first inning.
Yeah
Sorry