Not too many teams will leave a new reliever out there for 1 inning and 5 runs. Then when his confidence is shot, leave him out there for 1 inning and 4 runs.
The Pirates have to have the lowest slugging percentage in the league with men on base and/or men in scoring position. They score all their runs on infield hits, sacrifices flies, fielders choices, and wild pitches. Today Reynolds is up with the bases loaded and he hits an infield single. Can someone please drive the ball?
I live in the DC area and the Orioles are on every night. They hit the crap out of the ball from top to bottom of the lineup. It makes me want to scream in frustration when I compare them to the Pirates. I don’t think a single Pirates starter could crack the Orioles lineup. Not one. Reynolds might make it as a fourth outfielder.
Elias was hired one year before Ben and took over a much worse major league roster but had them with a winning record in his fourth season and one of the best teams in baseball in his fifth season. The Cherington fans will point out the difficulties of starting just before the pandemic hit, but even so this is his fourth full season and I'm skeptical that we'll finish with a winning record (in a weaker division) or that we'll be one of the best teams in baseball next year. I don't think Cherington is terrible, but he's far from elite and with Nutting as an owner, we probably need elite.
I'm starting to think he's pretty bad. Is there a single hitter who has yet to be called up who might help anytime before 2026 at this point? Termarr has me nervous. Macadoo? I mean this guy has been picking near top of draft for 5 years and i understand we have some hopeful pitching . But it blows my mind as far as bats are concerned. We basically have a resurgent Nick G and what else? I was pretty tough on NH but it's been half a decade and most of our best hitters still guys nh brought in on trades . Cruz and brey. i'd love someone to convince i'm wrong on cherrington's bats because it's really depressing .
Yeah, his ability to identify quality hitters and/or hire the staff to develop those hitters is a big concern.
I also don't like the lack of direction with his offseason signings where it feels like he signs who is easily signable instead of who might help take the team to the next level. Plus, so many of those offseason signings are justified as "clubhouse guys" but that seems to be a way around holding the coaching staff accountable for having the right kind of clubhouse.
Nope. Not on BucsDugout. Used to read it occasionally but never commented.
When my parents were alive and still lived in PGH we would make periodic visits from DC to the Burgh. Sometimes it seemed like half the cars on I-70N towards the Turnpike had Steelers stickers or license plate holders.
So the Burgh thing in the DMV is real. The explanation is simple: with the growth of the federal government and related industries/sectors the regional economy has been one of the fastest growing in the country over the past 30 years. It’s an easy trip between the two areas, and thousands of Western Pennsylvanians have settled here over the years. So once every four years or so, Steelers fans take over FedEx Field. Pens fans are notorious for driving Caps fans crazy during their frequent NHL playoff meetings. Unfortunately the Pirates have generally been so bad that the Buc fan presence at Nats Park has never been dominant. Now the Phillies fans …. That’s another matter.
This is getting way off topic, but it’s a combination of the government itself and the industries that swirl around it —— lobbyists and defense contractors especially. The US defense budget is close to a trillion dollars and so much of it gets spent through contractors and defense related industries, all of which have highly paid lobbyists to make sure the money keeps flowing. I’ll reveal my political leanings here, but the problem with federal spending is not welfare or food stamps —- it’s the unbelievable grift that accompanies defense and other federal contracting.
In a Washington Post article on the topic of a potential DC jury pool for a Trump trial, they noted that one out of every 40 DC residents is a lawyer. Think about that.
And both major parties love the system just the way it is. Neither party is capable of changing this dynamic one iota. There’s just too much money for everyone.
I keep thinking that one day the abuses will be so outrageous that there will be a popular revolt that unites the disenfranchised of all races, colors, and creeds from sea to shining sea. But I see no signs of this happening. Ever. It’s all just random anger and lashing out without any analysis or long-range strategy.
Jack came back up prematurely because they had no other options. If they still value him long term, which I believe they should, then they should swap him and Palacios now that Palacios is healthy.
Other games just in big part to Shelton’s mismanagement. No reason to sit some of your best hitters today in another game that should be considered a must-win against a divisional opponent.
Shelton treats relievers like used cars. He better hope Stratton’s injury isn’t serious for how many miles he’s put on him thus far this season.
It was 95 degrees and a day game so you sit your 25 year old who is in great shape, not to mention he is the hottest hitter. Very frustrating. If you are going to sit a guy, make it Hayes or Cruz.
Several injuries and this is his last option year and he's already in arbitration. He's definitely a bounce back change of scenery guy. I think they would be fairly open to a decent buy low trade. Next year he'll be in dfa risk if he doesn't improve. Actually a non-tender candidate.
Travis Williams made it crystal clear this organization considers Kennywood as its competition, not other major league ballclubs. No surprise with that attitude the on-field product is buttcheeks year after year.
“You’ve got to create a place where you’re creating exciting memories that will make people want to come back for more. We’re in the sports business, but we’re also in the entertainment business. People have a great time because they got to the ballpark quickly, they parked easily and walked in without any hesitation. In the first inning, they got their hot dog and beer. In the second inning, they got a hot pretzel and mustard. Fifth inning, they got ice cream. And they never had any problems with the lines or checkout. They made the trip around the ballpark and got their Instagram moments. They caught a foul ball. They get home and they’re like, “I’m gonna go back, because that was one hell of a time even if the team lost.”
“You can overcome a bad outcome on the field with a great fan experience. You cannot overcome a good outcome on the field with a bad experience.”
It reflects the organization's business model. The Pittsburgh Pirates franchise is an investment for Nutting. His main interest is raising the value of the franchise, and he doesn't need to win games to do it. He doesn't need to break attendance records to do it, so why increase payroll when you don't have too?
anyone who thought williams was gonna help the mlb team was sorely mistaken. he ran the business side of the penguins. how the hell is that gonna help the mlb team here.
and frankly, he shouldn't have say in the mlb side of decisions. leave that to the actual mlb people.....even if they are subpar.
which is why i find it odd he has the title of 'president'.....when i'm pretty sure he only runs the business side of things.
It's a good fit because Nuttin doesn't own a baseball operation.
You can't think in baseball terms when you're looking at what the Pirates do. All the things that fans think are the point -- hitting, pitching, winning games, etc. -- they're irrelevant to the Pirates' operation. They're just background for pierogie races, which is what Travis the Meadow Vole was saying in the quote above.
i'm fairly certain that when Williams was hired Nutting was quoted (i'm paraphrasing) that he didn't want someone baseball centric in that role(which i assumed was a reference to Coonely) and boy he really achieved that with Travis williams. I honestly believe neither williams nor nutting know a damn thing about baseball.
This has been the idea of this organization for a long time. It never occurred to anyone in charge that people come out to see good baseball players win games. They don't come out to buy a hot dog with mustard. If you put good baseball players on the field and win games, people will buy hot dogs and beer, because they are in a good mood. The product is the ball team... not the fireworks and pretzels. They really can't seem to understand that.
Exactly. It’s a shell game, the exigency for which was no doubt Nickels telling Williams he needs to maximize revenue without a good ballclub as a draw.
So the smooth-brained answer is the Pittsburgh Instagram Moments baseball club, situated in an ersatz Wrigleyville or Battery Atlanta — ignoring the fact that neither the Cubs nor the Braves is a perennial laughingstock.
Speaking only for myself, I’m not going to spend hundreds of dollars so my kids can eat hot dogs and play whiffleball. I can do that shit in the backyard for ten bucks tops.
My 11-year old has been riding me for a year and a half to travel to Pittsburgh for a game at PNC. My answer remains the PG-13 version of “Fuck no.” I’ve already paid 150 for mlb.tv. These fraudsters won’t get another cent from me until things change.
If I lived in Pittsburgh, I'd still attend games. But to be motivated to drive up from Tennessee requires realistic hope of a championship. And while Williams and Nutting may not care about us out-of-town fans, when we come to town we need lodging and eat out, probably visit museums, maybe shop...it's a good thing for the economy.
Yup. I drove from Philly to Pittsburgh a couple of years ago to take my kid to his first Steelers game. Probably spent nearly a grand all told and the tickets were only a couple hundred of that total. The rest was lodging, restaurants, gas, memorabilia, etc.
I was not very familiar with Williams, but this is not a serious person. The "fan experience?" What the hell does that even mean? He's worried about people waiting in lines and finding good parking spots? That is just an idiot speaking. The measure of success would be: are people willing to wait in line to get concessions because the product on the field is that good? Are people willing to park above CCAC and walk because the product is that good. That is the measure of success. That is when you know you have something. Anyone who has ever had a business knows this. No serious business person I have ever met was worried that his customers had to wait in lines. They want their customers in lines, because that means... business is good.
He is exactly who Nickels wants him to be: a corporate concierge whose main job is to leverage an MLB brand to dump more $$$ in Ebenezer Nutting’s pasty coffers.
Shits not getting fixed until a new CBA brings junk owners like Nutting to heel.
Broadcast indicating Skenes will start Monday instead of Sunday. Is it for the extra day rest, pitching against a division rival or for the extra ticket/concession sales?
It probably is a smart move--it lets Skenes avoid pitching in Colorado and the Rockies are a team that we should be able to compete with without him on the mound. Plus the extra day rest after just having his highest pitch count as a professional.
And bring in who to coach? Do you really think anyone out there could manage better with the pieces of crap they have? No good coaches would want to come here anyway. Need to get major league players not a bunch of AAA & AAAA players
Also, it likely wouldn't have mattered overall, but that double turned triple is another instance of my disdain for how they refuse to hand out errors to outfielders.
Hernandez back to the Dodgers, I wonder if they'll fix him.
Really wondering what the back story is here
i thought we needed talented relievers...
We do
no
Ashcraft with a very good triple A debut. 6 innings 3 hits 1 run 0 walks 4 strikeouts.
Ha, just came to post this.
Ditto
Heller's been outrighted. Apparently the team that was so eager to get him had second thoughts.
I really thought he’d be good.
Not too many teams will leave a new reliever out there for 1 inning and 5 runs. Then when his confidence is shot, leave him out there for 1 inning and 4 runs.
Hate it for him that it didn't work out. Seems like a good dude.
The Pirates have to have the lowest slugging percentage in the league with men on base and/or men in scoring position. They score all their runs on infield hits, sacrifices flies, fielders choices, and wild pitches. Today Reynolds is up with the bases loaded and he hits an infield single. Can someone please drive the ball?
I live in the DC area and the Orioles are on every night. They hit the crap out of the ball from top to bottom of the lineup. It makes me want to scream in frustration when I compare them to the Pirates. I don’t think a single Pirates starter could crack the Orioles lineup. Not one. Reynolds might make it as a fourth outfielder.
Elias was hired one year before Ben and took over a much worse major league roster but had them with a winning record in his fourth season and one of the best teams in baseball in his fifth season. The Cherington fans will point out the difficulties of starting just before the pandemic hit, but even so this is his fourth full season and I'm skeptical that we'll finish with a winning record (in a weaker division) or that we'll be one of the best teams in baseball next year. I don't think Cherington is terrible, but he's far from elite and with Nutting as an owner, we probably need elite.
I'm starting to think he's pretty bad. Is there a single hitter who has yet to be called up who might help anytime before 2026 at this point? Termarr has me nervous. Macadoo? I mean this guy has been picking near top of draft for 5 years and i understand we have some hopeful pitching . But it blows my mind as far as bats are concerned. We basically have a resurgent Nick G and what else? I was pretty tough on NH but it's been half a decade and most of our best hitters still guys nh brought in on trades . Cruz and brey. i'd love someone to convince i'm wrong on cherrington's bats because it's really depressing .
Yeah, his ability to identify quality hitters and/or hire the staff to develop those hitters is a big concern.
I also don't like the lack of direction with his offseason signings where it feels like he signs who is easily signable instead of who might help take the team to the next level. Plus, so many of those offseason signings are justified as "clubhouse guys" but that seems to be a way around holding the coaching staff accountable for having the right kind of clubhouse.
This. With a deadbeat owner you need a Mike Elias or a genius like Syd Thrift.
Nope. Not on BucsDugout. Used to read it occasionally but never commented.
When my parents were alive and still lived in PGH we would make periodic visits from DC to the Burgh. Sometimes it seemed like half the cars on I-70N towards the Turnpike had Steelers stickers or license plate holders.
So the Burgh thing in the DMV is real. The explanation is simple: with the growth of the federal government and related industries/sectors the regional economy has been one of the fastest growing in the country over the past 30 years. It’s an easy trip between the two areas, and thousands of Western Pennsylvanians have settled here over the years. So once every four years or so, Steelers fans take over FedEx Field. Pens fans are notorious for driving Caps fans crazy during their frequent NHL playoff meetings. Unfortunately the Pirates have generally been so bad that the Buc fan presence at Nats Park has never been dominant. Now the Phillies fans …. That’s another matter.
This is getting way off topic, but it’s a combination of the government itself and the industries that swirl around it —— lobbyists and defense contractors especially. The US defense budget is close to a trillion dollars and so much of it gets spent through contractors and defense related industries, all of which have highly paid lobbyists to make sure the money keeps flowing. I’ll reveal my political leanings here, but the problem with federal spending is not welfare or food stamps —- it’s the unbelievable grift that accompanies defense and other federal contracting.
In a Washington Post article on the topic of a potential DC jury pool for a Trump trial, they noted that one out of every 40 DC residents is a lawyer. Think about that.
And both major parties love the system just the way it is. Neither party is capable of changing this dynamic one iota. There’s just too much money for everyone.
I keep thinking that one day the abuses will be so outrageous that there will be a popular revolt that unites the disenfranchised of all races, colors, and creeds from sea to shining sea. But I see no signs of this happening. Ever. It’s all just random anger and lashing out without any analysis or long-range strategy.
Preach
Oh good god, please keep your stupid politics to yourself and talk baseball.
I'm so completely disheartened by Cherrington and Shelton. I honestly think Cherrington is bad and Shelton is awful.
Jack came back up prematurely because they had no other options. If they still value him long term, which I believe they should, then they should swap him and Palacios now that Palacios is healthy.
Other games just in big part to Shelton’s mismanagement. No reason to sit some of your best hitters today in another game that should be considered a must-win against a divisional opponent.
Shelton treats relievers like used cars. He better hope Stratton’s injury isn’t serious for how many miles he’s put on him thus far this season.
I don’t even have the energy to begin with Hayes…
Need a sweep in Colorado. Which is beyond doable.
It was 95 degrees and a day game so you sit your 25 year old who is in great shape, not to mention he is the hottest hitter. Very frustrating. If you are going to sit a guy, make it Hayes or Cruz.
Do you really think that the Twins would trade him?
The Twins are as likely to sell low on Kirilloff as we are with Davis… he’s not going anywhere.
Several injuries and this is his last option year and he's already in arbitration. He's definitely a bounce back change of scenery guy. I think they would be fairly open to a decent buy low trade. Next year he'll be in dfa risk if he doesn't improve. Actually a non-tender candidate.
Travis Williams made it crystal clear this organization considers Kennywood as its competition, not other major league ballclubs. No surprise with that attitude the on-field product is buttcheeks year after year.
When and where did he infer that?
“You’ve got to create a place where you’re creating exciting memories that will make people want to come back for more. We’re in the sports business, but we’re also in the entertainment business. People have a great time because they got to the ballpark quickly, they parked easily and walked in without any hesitation. In the first inning, they got their hot dog and beer. In the second inning, they got a hot pretzel and mustard. Fifth inning, they got ice cream. And they never had any problems with the lines or checkout. They made the trip around the ballpark and got their Instagram moments. They caught a foul ball. They get home and they’re like, “I’m gonna go back, because that was one hell of a time even if the team lost.”
“You can overcome a bad outcome on the field with a great fan experience. You cannot overcome a good outcome on the field with a bad experience.”
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4341909/2023/03/23/pirates-travis-williams-answers-questions/
It reflects the organization's business model. The Pittsburgh Pirates franchise is an investment for Nutting. His main interest is raising the value of the franchise, and he doesn't need to win games to do it. He doesn't need to break attendance records to do it, so why increase payroll when you don't have too?
"one hell of a time even if the team lost"
That says it all about Williams and Nutting. Makes me feel rather hopeless until Williams is out.
Right? How many people go to a ballgame — any ballgame, any team — and leave indifferent to whether one team or the other won or lost?
It’s just a jaw-dropping statement in its cynicism and stupidity.
sounds like he's doing exactly what bob hired him to do and all of us expected at the time.
sure as shit wasn't hired to run a baseball organization.
anyone who thought williams was gonna help the mlb team was sorely mistaken. he ran the business side of the penguins. how the hell is that gonna help the mlb team here.
and frankly, he shouldn't have say in the mlb side of decisions. leave that to the actual mlb people.....even if they are subpar.
which is why i find it odd he has the title of 'president'.....when i'm pretty sure he only runs the business side of things.
It's a good fit because Nuttin doesn't own a baseball operation.
You can't think in baseball terms when you're looking at what the Pirates do. All the things that fans think are the point -- hitting, pitching, winning games, etc. -- they're irrelevant to the Pirates' operation. They're just background for pierogie races, which is what Travis the Meadow Vole was saying in the quote above.
i'm fairly certain that when Williams was hired Nutting was quoted (i'm paraphrasing) that he didn't want someone baseball centric in that role(which i assumed was a reference to Coonely) and boy he really achieved that with Travis williams. I honestly believe neither williams nor nutting know a damn thing about baseball.
Sad but true.
This has been the idea of this organization for a long time. It never occurred to anyone in charge that people come out to see good baseball players win games. They don't come out to buy a hot dog with mustard. If you put good baseball players on the field and win games, people will buy hot dogs and beer, because they are in a good mood. The product is the ball team... not the fireworks and pretzels. They really can't seem to understand that.
Exactly. It’s a shell game, the exigency for which was no doubt Nickels telling Williams he needs to maximize revenue without a good ballclub as a draw.
So the smooth-brained answer is the Pittsburgh Instagram Moments baseball club, situated in an ersatz Wrigleyville or Battery Atlanta — ignoring the fact that neither the Cubs nor the Braves is a perennial laughingstock.
Speaking only for myself, I’m not going to spend hundreds of dollars so my kids can eat hot dogs and play whiffleball. I can do that shit in the backyard for ten bucks tops.
My 11-year old has been riding me for a year and a half to travel to Pittsburgh for a game at PNC. My answer remains the PG-13 version of “Fuck no.” I’ve already paid 150 for mlb.tv. These fraudsters won’t get another cent from me until things change.
If I lived in Pittsburgh, I'd still attend games. But to be motivated to drive up from Tennessee requires realistic hope of a championship. And while Williams and Nutting may not care about us out-of-town fans, when we come to town we need lodging and eat out, probably visit museums, maybe shop...it's a good thing for the economy.
Yup. I drove from Philly to Pittsburgh a couple of years ago to take my kid to his first Steelers game. Probably spent nearly a grand all told and the tickets were only a couple hundred of that total. The rest was lodging, restaurants, gas, memorabilia, etc.
I was not very familiar with Williams, but this is not a serious person. The "fan experience?" What the hell does that even mean? He's worried about people waiting in lines and finding good parking spots? That is just an idiot speaking. The measure of success would be: are people willing to wait in line to get concessions because the product on the field is that good? Are people willing to park above CCAC and walk because the product is that good. That is the measure of success. That is when you know you have something. Anyone who has ever had a business knows this. No serious business person I have ever met was worried that his customers had to wait in lines. They want their customers in lines, because that means... business is good.
"The "fan experience?" What the hell does that even mean?"
Ask the Commissioner who thinks the WS trophy is just a piece of metal.
See below
He is exactly who Nickels wants him to be: a corporate concierge whose main job is to leverage an MLB brand to dump more $$$ in Ebenezer Nutting’s pasty coffers.
Shits not getting fixed until a new CBA brings junk owners like Nutting to heel.
It's like Shelton isn't even trying to win or compete.
This lineup today says they're totally okay with being in last place.
No shit!
Let's rest Gonzales and Joe cause we need to give them some rest. Hey asshole Shelton they're your best hitters.
WTF!!
Well... now they are in last place.
Get used to it.
Broadcast indicating Skenes will start Monday instead of Sunday. Is it for the extra day rest, pitching against a division rival or for the extra ticket/concession sales?
It probably is a smart move--it lets Skenes avoid pitching in Colorado and the Rockies are a team that we should be able to compete with without him on the mound. Plus the extra day rest after just having his highest pitch count as a professional.
I think it's a smart move, I also think all 3 reasons was a factor.
Yes
That didn't look good, something popped.
I'm losing faith in Jack. I keep telling myself he'll figure this out but he's becoming unbearable to watch
They absolutely need to dump him asap.
trade him for Kirrilof who was just DFA'd?
Just optioned
And bring in who to coach? Do you really think anyone out there could manage better with the pieces of crap they have? No good coaches would want to come here anyway. Need to get major league players not a bunch of AAA & AAAA players
Olivares doesn’t seem to be an answer to any of the team’s needs.
You mean the need to have good baseball players. Yes I agree.
just like so many others in this lineup. Watch two real strikes then swing at something out of the zone. Should have pinched hit Gonzo, Cutch or Joe.
I don't see an answer for the OF after Reynolds, besides Joe in a platoon role.
The answer is to find outfielders who can hit. You know, like major league teams do. But Cherington hasn’t hit on that strategy yet.
Wasting a year when when they have some descent players.
Welcome. You'll love it here. Good folks in this community.
But can they play middle infield? Cherington's primary question.
Also, it likely wouldn't have mattered overall, but that double turned triple is another instance of my disdain for how they refuse to hand out errors to outfielders.
Mitch Fucking Keller.
Oh, buddy. Was expecting worse after the HBP, but Keller locking it down. Noice.