Great write up Anthony. Triolo to me has the potential to be a better Josh Harrison. Better defender with potential to be a solid offensive player. LP has more upside as a hitter where Triolo projects to be a steady, solid everyday player and plus defender.
I was just gonna comment I think a better comp for Triolo is Josh Harrison.
Zobrist had a good bit of time in CF and was a switch-hitter. And from what I remember, a better bat from the left side(which helped him stay in the lineup everyday). Being RH you are usually the weak side of the platoon.
And I agree with Anthony, not sure Triolo is ever gonna give you 20 plus HR in a season like Zobrist. But 13-16 HR(Josh Harrison esque) is more than doable.
It’s never gonna be a perfect comp either, I know, but Harrison and Zobrist also played the OF. Maybe Triolo gets some time in RF/LF(especially as he ages) but I can’t see him in CF like Zobrist. But the arm would for sure play in RF. And Harrison didn’t really play 1B while Zobrist did and I definitely think Triolo will see a little 1B PT.
If I had to pick a comp it would be Josh Harrison more than Zobrist though.
Coolest part to me about the IVB findings are actually how they show that *command* is the critical factor to success.
Jared Jones has tended to get hit hard through his minor league career in spite of plus-plus velo and plus-plus movement, while masters with similar traits like DeGrom and Strider have not, because IVB is only really useful when commanded above the belt. The qualities that make the pitch nearly unhittable when commanded at the top of the zone make it a liability middle-down.
Well, and one of the other things is that the better the VAA (not just IVB), the more swing and miss a pitcher generally sees with in zone misses. Such as a Strider, who might throw a FF middle middle, and still has batters coming up empty handed. Gotta be on the extreme side of ride or sink if the command is going to stink.
Not sure about that and probably not for the reason one would think. I see a scenario where Strider stops being good very fast ala Chris Archer... which would make Triolo much more like Zobrist than you intend to mean, I suppose. I think a guy like Brock Holt would be a good comp for Triolo though.
Definitely missed that one on the SAT. I'm on a computer so I could obviously look it up. But, I spent 44 years not knowing so why ruin a good thing right?
I think it’s J Harrison(at his best):: J Jones : Strider. Jones might have better MiLB numbers, but unless he develops another off speed pitch or can (unlikely) hold his velocity through 6 innings, I think his comp might be Justin Wilson - which isn’t terrible!
Jones may have better MiLB numbers? Is that in reference to Strider's 94 IP 64 Hits allowed and 153 K's? Sorry if I misinterpreted, but I went off the rails here or elsewhere a while back when a Strider comparison was made. Strider was flat out dominant in MiLB which triggered his quick promotion. Jones has been very good but especially in AAA last year - not dominant.
Also, don’t know if you guys saw Alex’s article on Ashcraft; looks like this year he’s going to be a multi inning reliever vice a starter due to innings count
I also like htat role for Ashcraft. As players move up/get hurt, you could slide him into the rotation. But a multi-inning role is perfect for him I think.
I still disagree with this gameplan (not your thoughts). I'd rather build him up to 5 innings to see if he can maintain his stuff and if that means he takes a month off then so be it. He is a big guy with a starters build and pitch mix but injuries derailed him. Let's build him back up.
IMO, i would push Termarr up to AA to get him out of that hitter's haven, but I could be convinced to have Skenes either at tuna or indy. I think Ashcraft could be a really valuable multi-inning weapon out of the pen and then have him earn a rotation spot next year. Basically, I am assuming he will become prime Andrew Miller and will settle for absolutely nothing less
Perhaps. But, there’s other suitors who could use Snell (Angels, possibly the Red Sox). The Yankees have also been relatively frugal (for them) in recent years.
That’s possible as well. But they’ve done some prospect hugging too. Lots of you can’t have any of the top 7 guys etc. Personally, I’m not impressed with the job Cashman has done recently. They’ve spent a lot of money to poor results, and a lot of the prospects they’ve hugged have busted.
Oh yeah. I’m from NY, and the local press makes it feels like it’s a Yankee media press release. By the end of last spring, it sounded like Volpe was better than Jeter. And Volpe was one of their better prospects! They’re already laying that groundwork with Jones.
Back in the old days, we’d say his fastball has a lot of movement to it. Nowadays we like to give it a multi-word moniker and quantify it with a number that 99% of fans have no idea is good or bad.
No good solution for this as the genie is out of the bag. The teams that don’t embrace this stuff get left in the dust like the White Sox and Rockies. But the more teams embrace it, the more it sucks the fun out of the game.
I think it’s pretty cool that we have these metrics, but like you said, I don’t get why this is turned into such a complex subject. Anyone who has ever played baseball or watched the Pirates know when they see movement on a fastball.
Except what we're talking about here is the polar opposite of what you describe. That's pretty important!
Pirate fans think back to the Huntington Era where movement meant sink and fade, traditionally what we thought were good qualities in a fastball.
The last decade of innovation - it's less the "metrics" than the technology we now have to measure movement and spin - has proven that to be incorrect in many cases. We lack the ability to see the kind of vertical movement being discussed here with the naked eye for all intents and purposes.
These fastballs were called "flat" as a pejorative. Prospects like Jameson Taillon had this natural movement developed out of them all the way down to overhauling the drop and drive deliveries that lead to what is now understood to be beneficial qualities of the pitch.
No more consequential finding on the pitching side of the ball in the last decade.
The challenge at this point, lacking further technological innovation, is to translate the clarity that Trackman has provided in producing pitch metrics into practice. This is where the Pirates have failed. If X has a "flat" fastball, how do we change that. Why is it flat? Is it his wrist motion, his grip, his hand-size? Translate the data into improved coaching techniques. That is what is needed.
You could throw in Cole as well. Instead of being cutting edge with the sinker approach, it probably cost some effectiveness from some, while it enhanced a guy like Hughes. It truly is a game of give and take, when you get locked into one philosophy, you don't always get the optimal results.
I have the same take on it because we use to simply say that about the movement on a guys fastball. While modern technology allows it to be broken down into so many different variables it comes down to not everyone is built the same or can exactly replicate someone else's arm slot or even range of motion. If anything I think they may be ruining some guys by thinking humans are like automatons. If things were that simple just build me two Bob Gibson's and two Sandy Koufax's every six years for my rotation, lol.
A whole lot of Gibson was between his ears. Maybe the fiercest competitor I ever saw. I know all about the mound in 1968 (year of the pitcher) but COME ON.
Great write up Anthony. Triolo to me has the potential to be a better Josh Harrison. Better defender with potential to be a solid offensive player. LP has more upside as a hitter where Triolo projects to be a steady, solid everyday player and plus defender.
I was just gonna comment I think a better comp for Triolo is Josh Harrison.
Zobrist had a good bit of time in CF and was a switch-hitter. And from what I remember, a better bat from the left side(which helped him stay in the lineup everyday). Being RH you are usually the weak side of the platoon.
And I agree with Anthony, not sure Triolo is ever gonna give you 20 plus HR in a season like Zobrist. But 13-16 HR(Josh Harrison esque) is more than doable.
It’s never gonna be a perfect comp either, I know, but Harrison and Zobrist also played the OF. Maybe Triolo gets some time in RF/LF(especially as he ages) but I can’t see him in CF like Zobrist. But the arm would for sure play in RF. And Harrison didn’t really play 1B while Zobrist did and I definitely think Triolo will see a little 1B PT.
If I had to pick a comp it would be Josh Harrison more than Zobrist though.
Just read where the Marlins are sending Cabrera to get an MRI on his pitching shoulder. Another bit of news potentially not good for a pitcher.
Ashcraft has been optioned.
To Altoona, which is disappointing.
Not for me. I'll BE there!
-----------------
"Finster! How many times have I told you not to play with the DIRTY money?!"
-Wabbit
Coolest part to me about the IVB findings are actually how they show that *command* is the critical factor to success.
Jared Jones has tended to get hit hard through his minor league career in spite of plus-plus velo and plus-plus movement, while masters with similar traits like DeGrom and Strider have not, because IVB is only really useful when commanded above the belt. The qualities that make the pitch nearly unhittable when commanded at the top of the zone make it a liability middle-down.
Curious to see if Jones can develop good enough off speed stuff to counter some mistakes in the strike zone.
Well, and one of the other things is that the better the VAA (not just IVB), the more swing and miss a pitcher generally sees with in zone misses. Such as a Strider, who might throw a FF middle middle, and still has batters coming up empty handed. Gotta be on the extreme side of ride or sink if the command is going to stink.
I read that last line like Johnny Cochrane on trial.
If the glove doesn't fit....
yo fastball ain't shit!
They really need to add gifs to substack. This needs a spits out water
I'm sorry but I don't see any scenario where Triolo is the next Zobrist.
Zobrist put up MVP level season and accumulated more than 40 fWAR.
He almost walked and much as he k'd. Tri is not that type of player.
Triolo : Zobrist :: Jared Jones : Strider
Not sure about that and probably not for the reason one would think. I see a scenario where Strider stops being good very fast ala Chris Archer... which would make Triolo much more like Zobrist than you intend to mean, I suppose. I think a guy like Brock Holt would be a good comp for Triolo though.
This hurt my few remaining brain cells to remember what these dots mean
Aced this one on my SAT
Definitely missed that one on the SAT. I'm on a computer so I could obviously look it up. But, I spent 44 years not knowing so why ruin a good thing right?
I think it’s J Harrison(at his best):: J Jones : Strider. Jones might have better MiLB numbers, but unless he develops another off speed pitch or can (unlikely) hold his velocity through 6 innings, I think his comp might be Justin Wilson - which isn’t terrible!
Jones may have better MiLB numbers? Is that in reference to Strider's 94 IP 64 Hits allowed and 153 K's? Sorry if I misinterpreted, but I went off the rails here or elsewhere a while back when a Strider comparison was made. Strider was flat out dominant in MiLB which triggered his quick promotion. Jones has been very good but especially in AAA last year - not dominant.
The comparison was to Justin Wilson (which again, I didn’t look up so I could wrong). Apologies for the ambiguity.
JHay, the original Zobrist, of course!
Jose Oquendo says "What about me? I played all the positions!"
Cesar Tovar and Bert Campeneris both played all nine positions in a single game.
I think Oquendo did it too, not sure though it might have been throughout the season.
I think termarr in A+ and Skenes in AA.
Also, don’t know if you guys saw Alex’s article on Ashcraft; looks like this year he’s going to be a multi inning reliever vice a starter due to innings count
That's where I'm at as far as where they start.
I also like htat role for Ashcraft. As players move up/get hurt, you could slide him into the rotation. But a multi-inning role is perfect for him I think.
yup. I bet he starts in Indy and does his multi inning relief in innings 1-2 (aka an opener) but would get called up to be a legit reliever.
I still disagree with this gameplan (not your thoughts). I'd rather build him up to 5 innings to see if he can maintain his stuff and if that means he takes a month off then so be it. He is a big guy with a starters build and pitch mix but injuries derailed him. Let's build him back up.
IMO, i would push Termarr up to AA to get him out of that hitter's haven, but I could be convinced to have Skenes either at tuna or indy. I think Ashcraft could be a really valuable multi-inning weapon out of the pen and then have him earn a rotation spot next year. Basically, I am assuming he will become prime Andrew Miller and will settle for absolutely nothing less
In other news, MLBTR is reporting Yankees Ace, Gerrit Cole is having an MRI on his elbow.
Personally hoping for the best for him. Baseball is better when the best players are playing.
Gonna be tough for the Yankees to replace that production in the AL East if they lose him.
They’ll console themselves with Snell.
Perhaps. But, there’s other suitors who could use Snell (Angels, possibly the Red Sox). The Yankees have also been relatively frugal (for them) in recent years.
Yep. They can go the trade market (Cease? One of the Mariners arms?) as well.
That’s possible as well. But they’ve done some prospect hugging too. Lots of you can’t have any of the top 7 guys etc. Personally, I’m not impressed with the job Cashman has done recently. They’ve spent a lot of money to poor results, and a lot of the prospects they’ve hugged have busted.
Oh yeah. I’m from NY, and the local press makes it feels like it’s a Yankee media press release. By the end of last spring, it sounded like Volpe was better than Jeter. And Volpe was one of their better prospects! They’re already laying that groundwork with Jones.
Back in the old days, we’d say his fastball has a lot of movement to it. Nowadays we like to give it a multi-word moniker and quantify it with a number that 99% of fans have no idea is good or bad.
Are we better off? You tell me.
The good news is that one literally has to seek out this stuff to even know it exists.
You're free to consume baseball just as you did in the 80s.
I’m just grateful I was able to consume baseball back in the 70’s and 80’s. It was definitely a better time for fans, probably not for players though.
Of course fans aren’t better off but the stats guys and their websites are.
No good solution for this as the genie is out of the bag. The teams that don’t embrace this stuff get left in the dust like the White Sox and Rockies. But the more teams embrace it, the more it sucks the fun out of the game.
I think it’s pretty cool that we have these metrics, but like you said, I don’t get why this is turned into such a complex subject. Anyone who has ever played baseball or watched the Pirates know when they see movement on a fastball.
Except what we're talking about here is the polar opposite of what you describe. That's pretty important!
Pirate fans think back to the Huntington Era where movement meant sink and fade, traditionally what we thought were good qualities in a fastball.
The last decade of innovation - it's less the "metrics" than the technology we now have to measure movement and spin - has proven that to be incorrect in many cases. We lack the ability to see the kind of vertical movement being discussed here with the naked eye for all intents and purposes.
These fastballs were called "flat" as a pejorative. Prospects like Jameson Taillon had this natural movement developed out of them all the way down to overhauling the drop and drive deliveries that lead to what is now understood to be beneficial qualities of the pitch.
No more consequential finding on the pitching side of the ball in the last decade.
The challenge at this point, lacking further technological innovation, is to translate the clarity that Trackman has provided in producing pitch metrics into practice. This is where the Pirates have failed. If X has a "flat" fastball, how do we change that. Why is it flat? Is it his wrist motion, his grip, his hand-size? Translate the data into improved coaching techniques. That is what is needed.
Preach!
You could throw in Cole as well. Instead of being cutting edge with the sinker approach, it probably cost some effectiveness from some, while it enhanced a guy like Hughes. It truly is a game of give and take, when you get locked into one philosophy, you don't always get the optimal results.
One big puzzle!
Thanks for the comment. I always like hearing from people on this site that know way more about the sport than me.
I still remember that long article of Jamo on his progression on P2.
It’s crazy to think that his drop and drive technique is now the way to go to get the vertical break pitchers are looking for.
Why anyone would think throwing fastballs the was Nolan Ryan did was a bad thing is beyond inexplicable.
Right on man.
I have the same take on it because we use to simply say that about the movement on a guys fastball. While modern technology allows it to be broken down into so many different variables it comes down to not everyone is built the same or can exactly replicate someone else's arm slot or even range of motion. If anything I think they may be ruining some guys by thinking humans are like automatons. If things were that simple just build me two Bob Gibson's and two Sandy Koufax's every six years for my rotation, lol.
Do you have the parts? If so let’s head to the garage and get started.
A whole lot of Gibson was between his ears. Maybe the fiercest competitor I ever saw. I know all about the mound in 1968 (year of the pitcher) but COME ON.
If he’s stayed with the Globetrotters, the attrition rate on the Washington Generals would have been gruesome.
Avoid the Abby Normal brain in a jar!
Can you imagine having a staff like that, lol.
We see you Foo, come back!
I think being a fan of Bae broke him! (I’m trying to poke the sleeping bear!)