I was out all day and am just now catching up on the news. I'm glad Shelton has been replaced as I don't think there was anyway to overcome the culture he initially established.
I hope he gets another chance where he can get off on the right foot, but I doubt any team will hire a manager with his overall winning percentage.
“When I think about that statement, where I first go is, ‘OK, are we playing defense? Are we running the bases?’ By and large, we have done those things. Our team defense has been good, at least as far as our measurements are concerned. Our baserunning has largely been good.”
I hear a lot of this idea from the podcaster/blogger crowd that “the Pirates are filling their players’ heads with TOO MUCH analytics” and that’s why they fail or that Shelton/Cherington are “too reliant on the analytics” in their decision making. I never hear tangible evidence to back up these claims, though.
Let me ask you, what’s more likely? Ben Cherington and his staff are forcing so much statistical analysis onto their players that they don’t have time to take batting practice because they’re instead up all night learning calculus? Or, one - that he’s failed to staff his analytics department with competent people and their analysis is just bad, as evidenced by this quote above or, two - Cherington and his staff are too incompetent to effectively utilize whatever his analytics department is coming up with. Or, even worse and probably the most likely - some combination of the two.
What bugs me is that it is objectively false that the Pirates are playing good defense and running the bases well by all available public metrics. So I have to assume that this is total BS. He actually defended Kiner-Felafa’s play at short.
Exactly. Anyone who's watched even a little bit of this team can tell you their defense and baserunning have been atrocious. You could that with other quotes of his like IKF at short which you mentioned or Pham "normalizing his batting line" and it paints a picture of a GM looking at analytics that are very different than the publicly available data and that is very different than what we're seeing with our eyes. When your data isn't aligning with ANYTHING else out there, well, you might just have some bad data.
The DK site has the full transcript of the Cherington press conference, if you can stand to read it. I find it hard to believe that he actually believes what he’s saying. If he does, he’s totally delusional.
The one revealing thing for me was his acknowledging that they tried to find other corner outfield solutions and were unsuccessful.
Ben had the audacity to say "If I had done my job _perfectly_ for five years, I might not be meeting with you today." Perfectly? He can't bring himself to say anything more than he's been less than perfect. What arrogance.
When a Japanese Samurai failed his master, he inserted his sword into his stomach and spilled his guts onto the floor. That is accountability. Now, I am not asking Cherrington to commit Sepuku, but if he truly wants to be accountable, he should resign. He admitted, in effect, that he had done a bad job and has been a bad GM (as if 8 last place finishes in 10 season was not evidence enough of this). His whole "accountability" thing is just more blah... blah... blah. Quit and go back to what he does best... teaching "sports management" to a bunch of half-asleep undergrads.
The assembled journalists were reasonably aggressive based on the transcript. He literally went position by position and outlined his thinking, which again was delusional on the whole.
It's not going to change a whole lot since the roster has so many issues, but I'll be curious if they have a little more pep with the change. Hopefully guys will at least be put in better positions to compete now. They're at the point where any change is good change really.
Not surprised BC was retained. Feel like it’s a lot less common to replace a GM mid season. Last one I can recall was the Mets GM that was involved in scandal. The manager is always the first to go and hopefully it’s an eye opener for BC that he’s running out of time and to act accordingly.
Don Kelly has a deeper understanding of what a successful Pirates organization means for the region. That being said, I worry this coaching staff has too much bad juju around it to get the players to buy in now. My expectations are low, but I’m rooting for his success.
However, if Don Kelly says “we have to win in the margins” at any point during his first press conference, I’m turning on him immediately.
That is exactly why he needs to go now too. He knows, we know, everyone knows that he is gone after the season. Even if he were a good decision-maker and thinker, how could you expect him to make good decisions under those circumstances? What makes it worse is that he makes bad decisions now consistently. Now he is desperate and making bad decision.
This had to happen and to my surprise it did. Of course this isn’t the solution, but I’ll be interested to see if the performance improves at all, and if the lineups and/or bullpen usage change.
C'mon, Nutting, fire BC, too, and either sell the team or put someone else in charge who will do what is necessary to actually try to win!
Don't feel for Shelton. If he really is a good baseball guy, he will resurface somewhere else and everyone will say how terrible a job the Pirates MGR job was - and probably be right. At the same time, he has hopefully learned the value of holding players accountable and not being JUST a players' MGR. A lot of lessons can be learned through this and I'm sure he is somewhat relieved. I can't imagine the lack of sleep and indigestion he's been having over the past few weeks.
A number of managers were bad their first time around and much better with a fresh start elsewhere. If he's learned that being manager isn't about being popular, he might do a good job if given another chance.
TN you are forgetting the characteristic that bothered both of us, his stubbornness as was addressed by his own wife back in what, year one or two. Also your pet peeve about Joe Madden being his mentor/idol and smartest in the room type. Nope, he's not manager material ever again.
All true, but maybe being fired is humbling enough that he would be less stubborn, less sure that he's smarter than anyone else.
His best chance is to become a bench coach somewhere and then get an opportunity when the manager gets fired. And his chances will be better if the Pirates continue to struggle under Kelly.
I think it was Shelton who did 98% of the managing. BC may have had limited involvement such as "I'd like to get Andujar 50 ABs to see what we have", but left it up to Shelton how and when to deploy him.
As far as Andujar, I think it was Ben and the analytics team saying not to bring him up. His major league stats from the previous several years all said he was not going to be worth the 2 plus million it was going to cost. His numbers in Indy but just the eye test alone said he was worth a shot.
When they called him up he had a game with 3 hits, then they pinch hit for him the same game. Those are the type of decisions that I think are scripted. It never seemed like Shelton ever had a real feel of the game... or was given that chance to. (Mostly speculation and guessing on my part)
Yes, we are speculating.......but come on, what baseball guy is going to agree to take an MLB manager job and not have the authority to call most all of the shots on the field and have control of his 26-man usage? I've heard GMs including BC say that their manager makes the on field game decisions.
Who would take a manager job and not call all the shots? I would, you would, Derek Shelton would, Carlos Marmol would, probably Kevin Cash and a handful more that are in the bigs. I heard Joe Girardi say towards the end of his career, the line-up is whatever the computer spits out to him that day. The Cardinals fired Mike Shilt and hired Carlos Marmol over this very topic, how much control the manager has.
I think we both agree that decisions are a team effort, but we disagree on how much say Shelton had, and that is ok.
To maybe see that I am not totally crazy, I see the Pirates also fired their "planning and strategy coach" Randy Haddad.
In the end though, you are correct that Shelton should be the one in charge. He accepted bad play from his players and I also think he accepted bad advice from those in the front office.
These things just make me kinda sad. Hurdle was a good dude and good baseball guy who they held onto for too long and Shelton by all accounts is as well but was served up on the sacrificial alter.
They aren't gonna be worse off by getting rid of him, just feels squishy to celebrate such a thing. Jimmy Leyland ripping lung darts in the dugout loses 90 games with this sad bunch and that ain't Shelton's fault.
Yeah, it's whatever. I more want to know what's next, and what kind of leash does Ben have. Bob really has to be in the clouds if he doesn't think the product Ben has been able to conjure up in 6 years isn't a complete disappointment.
Hopefully, BC has a Matt Morris type trade ready to unleash before his demise. Getting rid of Shelton is fine and all, but nothing is going to change about the roster, so I expect very minimal impact.
Awaiting to hear if there's a player's only meeting today/tomorrow? Second to Shelton firing, this needs to happen, should have already happened before now......with all the "veteran leaders we have"
I believe Cherington is giving a press conference as we speak, but the official announcement did *not* use the word interim. Mackey and Hiles were discussing this in their quick video discussion of the firing. Cherington will no doubt be asked to clarify this.
Per DK Pittsburgh Sports, Cherington just said that Kelly is the manager for 2025. I guess he’ll make a decision at the end of the eyar whether to do a new search or not.
In the Mackey-Hiles discussion, Hiles said that he has heard or seen nothing to indicate that Cherington is in trouble.
Mlbtraderumors (always) has good authors, and today's article is no different.
BC "committing only to the rest of 2025 season" for Kelly. Kelly is a nice guy hire, which is always a match for the mediocrity that Bob is comfortable with. He's really short on experience.....but we'll see if he's learned how to manage by watching how not to be like Shelton.
With Shelton gone maybe I won't feel the need to take a nap before I go to bed most nights.
I was out all day and am just now catching up on the news. I'm glad Shelton has been replaced as I don't think there was anyway to overcome the culture he initially established.
I hope he gets another chance where he can get off on the right foot, but I doubt any team will hire a manager with his overall winning percentage.
Well, Mackey finally gets it:
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/jason-mackey/2025/05/08/mlb-derek-shelton-don-kelly-ben-cherington-bob-nutting/stories/202505080102
I hasten to point out that he had the Pirates winning 84 games this year.
“When I think about that statement, where I first go is, ‘OK, are we playing defense? Are we running the bases?’ By and large, we have done those things. Our team defense has been good, at least as far as our measurements are concerned. Our baserunning has largely been good.”
I hear a lot of this idea from the podcaster/blogger crowd that “the Pirates are filling their players’ heads with TOO MUCH analytics” and that’s why they fail or that Shelton/Cherington are “too reliant on the analytics” in their decision making. I never hear tangible evidence to back up these claims, though.
Let me ask you, what’s more likely? Ben Cherington and his staff are forcing so much statistical analysis onto their players that they don’t have time to take batting practice because they’re instead up all night learning calculus? Or, one - that he’s failed to staff his analytics department with competent people and their analysis is just bad, as evidenced by this quote above or, two - Cherington and his staff are too incompetent to effectively utilize whatever his analytics department is coming up with. Or, even worse and probably the most likely - some combination of the two.
What bugs me is that it is objectively false that the Pirates are playing good defense and running the bases well by all available public metrics. So I have to assume that this is total BS. He actually defended Kiner-Felafa’s play at short.
Exactly. Anyone who's watched even a little bit of this team can tell you their defense and baserunning have been atrocious. You could that with other quotes of his like IKF at short which you mentioned or Pham "normalizing his batting line" and it paints a picture of a GM looking at analytics that are very different than the publicly available data and that is very different than what we're seeing with our eyes. When your data isn't aligning with ANYTHING else out there, well, you might just have some bad data.
he had so many points I agree with.
The DK site has the full transcript of the Cherington press conference, if you can stand to read it. I find it hard to believe that he actually believes what he’s saying. If he does, he’s totally delusional.
The one revealing thing for me was his acknowledging that they tried to find other corner outfield solutions and were unsuccessful.
Ben had the audacity to say "If I had done my job _perfectly_ for five years, I might not be meeting with you today." Perfectly? He can't bring himself to say anything more than he's been less than perfect. What arrogance.
TBF if he says “If I’d done my job well …” he’s never working in a major league front office again.
When a Japanese Samurai failed his master, he inserted his sword into his stomach and spilled his guts onto the floor. That is accountability. Now, I am not asking Cherrington to commit Sepuku, but if he truly wants to be accountable, he should resign. He admitted, in effect, that he had done a bad job and has been a bad GM (as if 8 last place finishes in 10 season was not evidence enough of this). His whole "accountability" thing is just more blah... blah... blah. Quit and go back to what he does best... teaching "sports management" to a bunch of half-asleep undergrads.
So you’re playing the Japanese honor/Samurai card. That’s pretty radical.
My brain wants to hold my eyes accountable for reading half of it.
yeah okay ben a presser after firing your manager that delves into offseason moves doesn't sound defensive at all.
BC has been sailing on the river DE-Nile for awhile now!
The assembled journalists were reasonably aggressive based on the transcript. He literally went position by position and outlined his thinking, which again was delusional on the whole.
oof.
i think they got turned down by conforto who is playing worse than pham for more money
It's not going to change a whole lot since the roster has so many issues, but I'll be curious if they have a little more pep with the change. Hopefully guys will at least be put in better positions to compete now. They're at the point where any change is good change really.
Not surprised BC was retained. Feel like it’s a lot less common to replace a GM mid season. Last one I can recall was the Mets GM that was involved in scandal. The manager is always the first to go and hopefully it’s an eye opener for BC that he’s running out of time and to act accordingly.
Don Kelly has a deeper understanding of what a successful Pirates organization means for the region. That being said, I worry this coaching staff has too much bad juju around it to get the players to buy in now. My expectations are low, but I’m rooting for his success.
However, if Don Kelly says “we have to win in the margins” at any point during his first press conference, I’m turning on him immediately.
I wonder about the bad juju as well.
I wonder if they have a LOFT problem…lack of f’ing talent!
They mostly have a lack of talent, but any talent on the offensive side seems to be lacking juju.
gotta think that big bang news is on the way
Holderman released and Moreta up
Mlod to the pen, Bubba up, Rainey or Wentz out
Canario released and Horwitz up
Nick up and Frazier released
Ashcraft and Harrington to Minnesota for Royce Lewis
Would be the perfect time to DFA Pham
Im excited to see what hail mary trade BC comes up with
Gotta think he pulls the trigger on his last bullet any day now
That, Bubba and Horwitz/Nick healthy might just pull a miracle for him
Let's give Bubba one more start. His last start (of getting knocked out in the third inning after 9 baserunners) doesn't usually earn a promotion.
That is exactly why he needs to go now too. He knows, we know, everyone knows that he is gone after the season. Even if he were a good decision-maker and thinker, how could you expect him to make good decisions under those circumstances? What makes it worse is that he makes bad decisions now consistently. Now he is desperate and making bad decision.
Exactly
I think BC pulls this out
Shelton was the problem
Its all up from here
I appreciate your consistent positivity Sir!
"there´s no doubt about it"
This had to happen and to my surprise it did. Of course this isn’t the solution, but I’ll be interested to see if the performance improves at all, and if the lineups and/or bullpen usage change.
Im surprised this happened before Horwitz had a chance to play for a few weeks
Wish it was Kendall but understandable that Kelly was promised next up
sources saying Neil Walker to bench coach
C'mon, Nutting, fire BC, too, and either sell the team or put someone else in charge who will do what is necessary to actually try to win!
Don't feel for Shelton. If he really is a good baseball guy, he will resurface somewhere else and everyone will say how terrible a job the Pirates MGR job was - and probably be right. At the same time, he has hopefully learned the value of holding players accountable and not being JUST a players' MGR. A lot of lessons can be learned through this and I'm sure he is somewhat relieved. I can't imagine the lack of sleep and indigestion he's been having over the past few weeks.
Also, as you hinted at, I don't think he's looked very healthy going back to the end of last year. The stress had to be wearing on him.
A number of managers were bad their first time around and much better with a fresh start elsewhere. If he's learned that being manager isn't about being popular, he might do a good job if given another chance.
TN you are forgetting the characteristic that bothered both of us, his stubbornness as was addressed by his own wife back in what, year one or two. Also your pet peeve about Joe Madden being his mentor/idol and smartest in the room type. Nope, he's not manager material ever again.
All true, but maybe being fired is humbling enough that he would be less stubborn, less sure that he's smarter than anyone else.
His best chance is to become a bench coach somewhere and then get an opportunity when the manager gets fired. And his chances will be better if the Pirates continue to struggle under Kelly.
I wonder how much managing he actually did and how much were directives from the front office or an algorithm making the decisions.
Bingo!
I think it was Shelton who did 98% of the managing. BC may have had limited involvement such as "I'd like to get Andujar 50 ABs to see what we have", but left it up to Shelton how and when to deploy him.
As far as Andujar, I think it was Ben and the analytics team saying not to bring him up. His major league stats from the previous several years all said he was not going to be worth the 2 plus million it was going to cost. His numbers in Indy but just the eye test alone said he was worth a shot.
When they called him up he had a game with 3 hits, then they pinch hit for him the same game. Those are the type of decisions that I think are scripted. It never seemed like Shelton ever had a real feel of the game... or was given that chance to. (Mostly speculation and guessing on my part)
Yes, we are speculating.......but come on, what baseball guy is going to agree to take an MLB manager job and not have the authority to call most all of the shots on the field and have control of his 26-man usage? I've heard GMs including BC say that their manager makes the on field game decisions.
Who would take a manager job and not call all the shots? I would, you would, Derek Shelton would, Carlos Marmol would, probably Kevin Cash and a handful more that are in the bigs. I heard Joe Girardi say towards the end of his career, the line-up is whatever the computer spits out to him that day. The Cardinals fired Mike Shilt and hired Carlos Marmol over this very topic, how much control the manager has.
I think we both agree that decisions are a team effort, but we disagree on how much say Shelton had, and that is ok.
To maybe see that I am not totally crazy, I see the Pirates also fired their "planning and strategy coach" Randy Haddad.
In the end though, you are correct that Shelton should be the one in charge. He accepted bad play from his players and I also think he accepted bad advice from those in the front office.
I would bet the line-ups were not made by him. The scenarios for pitching changes were scripted before the games started, same with pinch-hitting.
Those line-ups often ignored how the players were doing in the game or previous games.
This
No success like failure and failure is no success at all. -Bob Dylan
In other words, a great learning experience.
These things just make me kinda sad. Hurdle was a good dude and good baseball guy who they held onto for too long and Shelton by all accounts is as well but was served up on the sacrificial alter.
They aren't gonna be worse off by getting rid of him, just feels squishy to celebrate such a thing. Jimmy Leyland ripping lung darts in the dugout loses 90 games with this sad bunch and that ain't Shelton's fault.
Yeah, it's whatever. I more want to know what's next, and what kind of leash does Ben have. Bob really has to be in the clouds if he doesn't think the product Ben has been able to conjure up in 6 years isn't a complete disappointment.
Leyland is the reason Don Kelly is the manager right now
Hopefully, BC has a Matt Morris type trade ready to unleash before his demise. Getting rid of Shelton is fine and all, but nothing is going to change about the roster, so I expect very minimal impact.
Awaiting to hear if there's a player's only meeting today/tomorrow? Second to Shelton firing, this needs to happen, should have already happened before now......with all the "veteran leaders we have"
Apparently, Cherington has a sack.
changed his twitter handle to @BIGBAWLZ last night, we shoulda seen this coming.
Shelton fired. Don Kelly taking over.
White smoke from PNC Park.
But a dark cloud still permeates.
I thought maybe Shelty had been elected pope, but alas, that wasn't to be....
Kelly is not the right guy, but understood he's just interim for now.
I believe Cherington is giving a press conference as we speak, but the official announcement did *not* use the word interim. Mackey and Hiles were discussing this in their quick video discussion of the firing. Cherington will no doubt be asked to clarify this.
Per DK Pittsburgh Sports, Cherington just said that Kelly is the manager for 2025. I guess he’ll make a decision at the end of the eyar whether to do a new search or not.
In the Mackey-Hiles discussion, Hiles said that he has heard or seen nothing to indicate that Cherington is in trouble.
Mlbtraderumors (always) has good authors, and today's article is no different.
BC "committing only to the rest of 2025 season" for Kelly. Kelly is a nice guy hire, which is always a match for the mediocrity that Bob is comfortable with. He's really short on experience.....but we'll see if he's learned how to manage by watching how not to be like Shelton.
Where's that "It's Happening" gif?
Now fire Cherrington!
he's a lame duck, he's done at the end of the year.
Well thats a start!