Still can’t believe the Pirates couldn’t trade or sign a real outfielder. Not talking about Bae, Frazier.Suwinski,Palacios. Or can’t get a real SS. This has been very discouraging for any Pirate fans. We have a good starting pitching staff, but still no offense. Same bottom 3 hitting team as last year. Nothing changed
12:19 if you’re running the Pirates who’s on 2B - Nick Yorke, Nick Gonzalez or What?
Eric A Longenhagen
12:19 Gonzales looked a fair bit better last year when he was healthy, so I'd role with that. I think Yorke is a bizarre reverse splits guy who'll be a right-on-right platoon bat. That guy can't hit lefties, it's freaking weird.
I'm holding out hope on Yorke hitting lefties, his swing and approach (hitting the opposite way deep on the pitch) plays to pitches moving away. He can get jammed with pitches coming in. He was about .030 below batting average wise and .100 below slugging against lefties,
considering his walk and k rates weren't way off from right handed pitchers he's still making contact, just weak. Hopefully he can make the adjustment, or try hitting out front against lefties. I think he can figure it out with more experience.
Hoping that the Pirates provide Yorke the opportunity. Not a dislike for NG, but he has been provided opportunities the past two years. Thought he had arrived after the positive spectacle that was May 2024 and a 900+ OPS, but June and July brought it all back down to earth. BC made the trade to get Yorke and I am glad. NG finished 2024 with an overall 711 OPS, but only a 665 OPS and only 4 HR against RHP's. Yorke did very well at both stops in the AAA IL with Boston and then with the Pirates. And, as you guys have noted, he tends to hit RHP's better than LHP's - can it get any better?
At age 23 for 2025, he is 3 years younger than NG, and a year younger than Liover Peguero who has played a lot of games at both SS and 2B. The other person in the mix is Termarr Johnson who will start 2025 at AA as a 20 year old. At A+ he played a lot of both SS and 2B mostly because Jack Brannigan was injured most of the season. They all need to move up when ready.
I like this insight. I also noticed that he improved his OPS against lefties in the minors from .636 in '23 in AA to .710 in '24 in AA and AAA combined but with most of the PAs in AAA.
Santander was priced well for the Pirates to take full advantage on a $20 mil per year that would have only taken them to $103 and still last in the NL Central in projected 2025 player salaries. Now you are asking them to add a helluva lot more for 6 years? Remember also that the LF and LC at PNC is much deeper than he has been used to with the Astro's.
You could see this coming.....BC spent $100k on deGues so he's holding onto him to save face. Alika seems like his pet student.
The other article discusses Bubba's elite fastball and here we lose a guy with an elite fastball. Elite fastballs hold leads and win ballgames in the late innings. Roster mismanagement continues........
Elvis was clearly a project from the time they signed him. Obviously not ready for the majors, but it wasn’t a major problem because he had three options. I couldn’t say what the odds are of helping him find the plate, but the Pirates must have thought they were above zero or they wouldn’t have signed him.
I don’t understand why the Pirates wasting a year of control for Skenes and J Jones doesnt get more publicity. If Jones would’ve spent 2 weeks in AAA last year, they would have an extra year of control in 2030. By calling Skenes up in May instead of June they made him Super 2 eligible and allowed him enough time to win ROY and have it count as a full year of service time and again lose the year of control in 2030.
Now, I don’t like the way the rules work. But for a lower revenue franchise it absolutely CRITICAL that they maximize years of control. Not doing so is malfeasance of the highest order. It’s just another example of how poorly this franchise is run.
Why does this example so rarely get discussed?! For me its up there with the Aramis Ramirez and Moises Alou fiascos of generations past.
Ironically, we could just as easily say the mistake with Skenes was not having him on the roster in the first two weeks because then he would have earned us a draft pick.
Tend to agree. They dodged ridicule by everyone (fans, analysts, rest of the league, the union) by not holding him down too long. That may pay dividends with their draft choices too, as they promoted Jones and Skenes when they were actually ready. Milb pitchers might work hard(er) seeing the prize is within grasp sooner, rather than being blocked......wishful thinking maybe.
Calling Jones up for Opening Day seemed like a mistake but I wonder if they figured they'd get the two weeks in the minors later, either because he'd have some initial struggles or they'd demote him to save innings on his arm. But then of course he excelled and the injury saved his inning count.
But if they're becoming more player-centric _and_ willing to pay the cost to keep those players through arb or even extend them, then more power to them.
I consider that a seperate conversation. Of course they should build a better team. But u dont forfeit a year of control for a generational player in a losing season.
i don't blame guys like Hoptown for thinking this way but I do believe they've internalized way, wayyy too much validity of this approach from the Huntington Era. This just isn't how baseball is working today. The value isn't there.
Yeah. I mean you have him pre-arb. right now. This is the highest value period in Skenes' career. You are getting enormous surplus value out of star player, and you make no effort to build a team around him. It doesn't get any better than this, and it won't. It is pretty much all downhill from here. Sad Sack franchise.
Learned absolutely nothing from Huntington wasting two years of prime Cutch.
The Cubs' world series drought would still be alive if they waited until their 2016 core was "established" before adding around them. You only get so many chances...
If they sign Skenes to an extension and buy out a couple of his post-arb. years, then the goodwill gained by disregarding money matters to do what was best for the player will have been worth it. If they make no effort to extend Skenes, and trade him away going into his arb 2 year (which has been their recent history), then yes... you are right... the whole situation was mismanaged badly. I will wait and see though before deciding if it was right or wrong.
What have the Pirates ever done to consider that they will attempt to sign Skenes to an extension? They won't pay for the last year or two of his "controlled" years. The Pirates can't wait to get rid of Keller now because of his salary. And I strongly suspect Keller will be gone next year. We can't understand how they can waste Skenes time here. The assumption is that they actually want to win. They do not. This offseason, if any, proves it.
It will be the latter. While goodwill is a nice thought for a middle of the road #5 starter, it won't buy us a thing with a hometown discount with Skenes......come on.
I agree that the best chance has passed but the second-best chance would be to demonstrate that they'll build a team around him _this_ year and then next offseason offer an extension in the $150/6 neighborhood (estimating his arb earnings around $60MM and then buying out just two FA years at $45MM each. Perhaps those FA years can be team options.
Skenes would still hit FA young enough to break a record and play most of his career wherever he wants while ensuring his generations are set even if he blows out his arm.
I like your math as I see some I think underestimate his first two FA years. However, I just don't see a scenario where even at $45M a year he would do it. If he gets $60M before he hits free agency (your estimate I think and seems reasonable - not my area of expertise) then given some of the crazy #'s players are getting, why would he take the $90M over 2 years when (especially given his confidence) he could be a full free agent being bid on by all the big players and be in line for maybe a 7 year deal with opt outs? Given I think he will make good money off the field as well, I just think it is a given that he will just get to free agency as soon as possible. Honestly, I think that might be the case for almost any team that would have drafted him. Finally.. I do fully disagree in your hopes of a team option for those 2 years. No reason for him to give the team that power.
I think the Skenes situation will be a lot like the Bobby Witt situation. The Royals wanted to sign Witt long term for 2 years, and he told them that he would only make a long-term commitment if he saw a commitment on their part to build a winning team. Once he saw that commitment, he signed a long-term deal with a nice home-town discount for the Royals. I think Skenes would do the same, but only under the same circumstances.
I hope that you are wrong, but I fear that you are right, especially given that ownership and the front office seem completely uninterested in building a winning team around Skenes.
I'm still not following what happened with Alvarado, first it was a minor league deal, then it was a 40-man/major league deal. Either way, they screwed that one up. Also who's predicted to be DFA for Mayza: De Geus, Williams?
Seeing those winter league stats, and given that I think the A's were 5th in claiming priority (i.e., it didn't take "long" for him to get claimed), I'm wondering if they chose the wrong guy to DFA. Almost surely it won't make any difference, but the 26 K's in just 19.1 IP with an ERA under 1 jumps out.
The guy has a 70-grade fastball and is a converted position player. His development as a pitcher was delayed, since he did not start pitching until he was 20 years old or so. The absolutely picked the wrong guy to DFA. They have a 40-man filled with junk players, and they took one of the few guys who had real upside and tossed him aside instead of the 15 castoffs, never-weres, and never-will-bes whom Cherington has accumulated in the past 2 years.
Give credit to Mark Shapiro and GM Ross Atkins of Toronto for making some signings that have placed them back in the RELEVANT classification. They have been very busy since losing out on some big name/money FA's, but landing Second Baseman Andres Gimenez from Cleveland (Horwitz part of that trade), FA Anthony Santander, LF and switch hitting 44 HR/102 RBI hitter in 2024, and now Max Scherzer, a sure HOF SP 5 years after he retires.
Adding three proven difference makers for very reasonable money helps to shore-up most of the holes they had in 2024.
Kind of feels like they want to win. Id take their off-season in a heartbeat. Even with it involving another 2b. Id think Satander hitting 2/3 of his HR from last year would still lead the Pirates. And Scherzer could teach the young staff quite a bit.
So the Royals offered Santander 3/66. Those filthy rich teams are just making the sport impossible for mom and pop teams like the Pirates.
Still can’t believe the Pirates couldn’t trade or sign a real outfielder. Not talking about Bae, Frazier.Suwinski,Palacios. Or can’t get a real SS. This has been very discouraging for any Pirate fans. We have a good starting pitching staff, but still no offense. Same bottom 3 hitting team as last year. Nothing changed
Bob
12:19 if you’re running the Pirates who’s on 2B - Nick Yorke, Nick Gonzalez or What?
Eric A Longenhagen
12:19 Gonzales looked a fair bit better last year when he was healthy, so I'd role with that. I think Yorke is a bizarre reverse splits guy who'll be a right-on-right platoon bat. That guy can't hit lefties, it's freaking weird.
12:20 Seriously, go look up his splits.
I'm holding out hope on Yorke hitting lefties, his swing and approach (hitting the opposite way deep on the pitch) plays to pitches moving away. He can get jammed with pitches coming in. He was about .030 below batting average wise and .100 below slugging against lefties,
considering his walk and k rates weren't way off from right handed pitchers he's still making contact, just weak. Hopefully he can make the adjustment, or try hitting out front against lefties. I think he can figure it out with more experience.
Or just move forward in the batter's box against righties and back against lefties.
He already starts with his right foot on the back line of the box.
Hoping that the Pirates provide Yorke the opportunity. Not a dislike for NG, but he has been provided opportunities the past two years. Thought he had arrived after the positive spectacle that was May 2024 and a 900+ OPS, but June and July brought it all back down to earth. BC made the trade to get Yorke and I am glad. NG finished 2024 with an overall 711 OPS, but only a 665 OPS and only 4 HR against RHP's. Yorke did very well at both stops in the AAA IL with Boston and then with the Pirates. And, as you guys have noted, he tends to hit RHP's better than LHP's - can it get any better?
At age 23 for 2025, he is 3 years younger than NG, and a year younger than Liover Peguero who has played a lot of games at both SS and 2B. The other person in the mix is Termarr Johnson who will start 2025 at AA as a 20 year old. At A+ he played a lot of both SS and 2B mostly because Jack Brannigan was injured most of the season. They all need to move up when ready.
I like this insight. I also noticed that he improved his OPS against lefties in the minors from .636 in '23 in AA to .710 in '24 in AA and AAA combined but with most of the PAs in AAA.
i'm banking on probability here; *true* reverse split dudes are just so extremely rare. I mean, name one! I can't!
I'm sure there's some out there but I can't think of them either.
I think we've went over Yorke's reverse splits before, I think we chalked it up to just needing more at bats against lefties.
A team other than the Astros with a standing 6-year deal for Bregman…could this be the Bucco’s big offseason addition?!
Santander was priced well for the Pirates to take full advantage on a $20 mil per year that would have only taken them to $103 and still last in the NL Central in projected 2025 player salaries. Now you are asking them to add a helluva lot more for 6 years? Remember also that the LF and LC at PNC is much deeper than he has been used to with the Astro's.
Except that Bregman is actually good.
if in fact Harrington is the centerpiece to a Luis Robert trade, then this needs to happen
Agree times a million
Hope is someone like TJ and IKF. TJ has similar trade value and IKF for the monetary relief.
You could see this coming.....BC spent $100k on deGues so he's holding onto him to save face. Alika seems like his pet student.
The other article discusses Bubba's elite fastball and here we lose a guy with an elite fastball. Elite fastballs hold leads and win ballgames in the late innings. Roster mismanagement continues........
Elite fastball means nothing when you're walking over 7 per 9 in AAA. I don't know about you, but I don't want to watch that at the MLB level.
It would be like watching the absolute worst possible version of Kyle Nicolas.
If the guy was 22 instead of 25, I might care.
I get that, I just have an affinity for guys that throw 100. Get two out of 5 across for strikes, and have a good second offering and you are money.
I'm with you there!
Elvis was clearly a project from the time they signed him. Obviously not ready for the majors, but it wasn’t a major problem because he had three options. I couldn’t say what the odds are of helping him find the plate, but the Pirates must have thought they were above zero or they wouldn’t have signed him.
de Geus is 27 years old. Has 4 partial years in MLB. Has a 7.48 ERA and 1.71 WHIP in 61 innings. Smh.
Maybe we can make him go away by saying, "Beetlegeus, Beetlegeus, Beetlegeus."
legend has it if you say Cherington three times in front of a mirror he'll show up and audit your taxes.
This is good to know because it doesn't seem like he's working on much else.
Andy Fox has been hired to manage the Curve this year. Don't know anything about him.
I think Indy still needs a manager.
I think the Pirates still need a manager
Chris Truby for Indy.
I don’t understand why the Pirates wasting a year of control for Skenes and J Jones doesnt get more publicity. If Jones would’ve spent 2 weeks in AAA last year, they would have an extra year of control in 2030. By calling Skenes up in May instead of June they made him Super 2 eligible and allowed him enough time to win ROY and have it count as a full year of service time and again lose the year of control in 2030.
Now, I don’t like the way the rules work. But for a lower revenue franchise it absolutely CRITICAL that they maximize years of control. Not doing so is malfeasance of the highest order. It’s just another example of how poorly this franchise is run.
Why does this example so rarely get discussed?! For me its up there with the Aramis Ramirez and Moises Alou fiascos of generations past.
Ironically, we could just as easily say the mistake with Skenes was not having him on the roster in the first two weeks because then he would have earned us a draft pick.
I don't believe the Pirates could have handled the Skenes situation any better than they did.
They mess stuff all the time, but they nailed it with Skenes.
Tend to agree. They dodged ridicule by everyone (fans, analysts, rest of the league, the union) by not holding him down too long. That may pay dividends with their draft choices too, as they promoted Jones and Skenes when they were actually ready. Milb pitchers might work hard(er) seeing the prize is within grasp sooner, rather than being blocked......wishful thinking maybe.
Calling Jones up for Opening Day seemed like a mistake but I wonder if they figured they'd get the two weeks in the minors later, either because he'd have some initial struggles or they'd demote him to save innings on his arm. But then of course he excelled and the injury saved his inning count.
But if they're becoming more player-centric _and_ willing to pay the cost to keep those players through arb or even extend them, then more power to them.
Skenes got a full year of service time by winning ROY. I don't think Super 2 comes into play at all. His first arbitration year will be after 2026.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.
That is correct. Had he not won ROY he wouldve been Super 2 eligible (money wasted over a month).
Not sniping you personally, but this is loser mentality.
The waste was not in failing to manipulate service time, it was in failing to build a damn team around these two.
Nobody gives a shit because nobody has any faith they'll do any better with that extra year of control.
I consider that a seperate conversation. Of course they should build a better team. But u dont forfeit a year of control for a generational player in a losing season.
If they would have made trades to improve the teams weaknesses it would. The teams failure was not improving the roster at the deadline.
i don't blame guys like Hoptown for thinking this way but I do believe they've internalized way, wayyy too much validity of this approach from the Huntington Era. This just isn't how baseball is working today. The value isn't there.
Yep, perpetually kicking the can down the road while others make moves will leave you a day late and a dollar short.
You may, but in doing so you're not acknowledging the likely reason you don't understand why nobody cares.
Yeah. I mean you have him pre-arb. right now. This is the highest value period in Skenes' career. You are getting enormous surplus value out of star player, and you make no effort to build a team around him. It doesn't get any better than this, and it won't. It is pretty much all downhill from here. Sad Sack franchise.
Learned absolutely nothing from Huntington wasting two years of prime Cutch.
The Cubs' world series drought would still be alive if they waited until their 2016 core was "established" before adding around them. You only get so many chances...
If they sign Skenes to an extension and buy out a couple of his post-arb. years, then the goodwill gained by disregarding money matters to do what was best for the player will have been worth it. If they make no effort to extend Skenes, and trade him away going into his arb 2 year (which has been their recent history), then yes... you are right... the whole situation was mismanaged badly. I will wait and see though before deciding if it was right or wrong.
What have the Pirates ever done to consider that they will attempt to sign Skenes to an extension? They won't pay for the last year or two of his "controlled" years. The Pirates can't wait to get rid of Keller now because of his salary. And I strongly suspect Keller will be gone next year. We can't understand how they can waste Skenes time here. The assumption is that they actually want to win. They do not. This offseason, if any, proves it.
It will be the latter. While goodwill is a nice thought for a middle of the road #5 starter, it won't buy us a thing with a hometown discount with Skenes......come on.
I think the Pirates best chance at extending Skenes has passed. Before bringing Skenes up was the time to work out a Chourio type deal.
I agree that the best chance has passed but the second-best chance would be to demonstrate that they'll build a team around him _this_ year and then next offseason offer an extension in the $150/6 neighborhood (estimating his arb earnings around $60MM and then buying out just two FA years at $45MM each. Perhaps those FA years can be team options.
Skenes would still hit FA young enough to break a record and play most of his career wherever he wants while ensuring his generations are set even if he blows out his arm.
I like your math as I see some I think underestimate his first two FA years. However, I just don't see a scenario where even at $45M a year he would do it. If he gets $60M before he hits free agency (your estimate I think and seems reasonable - not my area of expertise) then given some of the crazy #'s players are getting, why would he take the $90M over 2 years when (especially given his confidence) he could be a full free agent being bid on by all the big players and be in line for maybe a 7 year deal with opt outs? Given I think he will make good money off the field as well, I just think it is a given that he will just get to free agency as soon as possible. Honestly, I think that might be the case for almost any team that would have drafted him. Finally.. I do fully disagree in your hopes of a team option for those 2 years. No reason for him to give the team that power.
I think the Skenes situation will be a lot like the Bobby Witt situation. The Royals wanted to sign Witt long term for 2 years, and he told them that he would only make a long-term commitment if he saw a commitment on their part to build a winning team. Once he saw that commitment, he signed a long-term deal with a nice home-town discount for the Royals. I think Skenes would do the same, but only under the same circumstances.
I hope that you are wrong, but I fear that you are right, especially given that ownership and the front office seem completely uninterested in building a winning team around Skenes.
I'm still not following what happened with Alvarado, first it was a minor league deal, then it was a 40-man/major league deal. Either way, they screwed that one up. Also who's predicted to be DFA for Mayza: De Geus, Williams?
Your De Geus is as good as mine. (Sorry to anyone who read this.)
Seeing those winter league stats, and given that I think the A's were 5th in claiming priority (i.e., it didn't take "long" for him to get claimed), I'm wondering if they chose the wrong guy to DFA. Almost surely it won't make any difference, but the 26 K's in just 19.1 IP with an ERA under 1 jumps out.
The guy has a 70-grade fastball and is a converted position player. His development as a pitcher was delayed, since he did not start pitching until he was 20 years old or so. The absolutely picked the wrong guy to DFA. They have a 40-man filled with junk players, and they took one of the few guys who had real upside and tossed him aside instead of the 15 castoffs, never-weres, and never-will-bes whom Cherington has accumulated in the past 2 years.
Give credit to Mark Shapiro and GM Ross Atkins of Toronto for making some signings that have placed them back in the RELEVANT classification. They have been very busy since losing out on some big name/money FA's, but landing Second Baseman Andres Gimenez from Cleveland (Horwitz part of that trade), FA Anthony Santander, LF and switch hitting 44 HR/102 RBI hitter in 2024, and now Max Scherzer, a sure HOF SP 5 years after he retires.
Adding three proven difference makers for very reasonable money helps to shore-up most of the holes they had in 2024.
Kind of feels like they want to win. Id take their off-season in a heartbeat. Even with it involving another 2b. Id think Satander hitting 2/3 of his HR from last year would still lead the Pirates. And Scherzer could teach the young staff quite a bit.