My guess is Holliday will sign for a little over $8.8 to give him the largest bonus in the draft, he's also represented by Boras. Hernandez will get at least $7.3 but more realistically around slot, to insure top 5 money.
The 5 and 7 picks have signed, 5 under slot, 7 at slot. I think around $7.2 million each. Hernandez should be around slot +/- just a little. Pick 8 was $750,000 under slot and pick 9 is $600,000 under slot. With picks 1, 2, and 3 coming under slot, only picks 4, 6, 7, and 10 will be at or +/- slot value.
I think $7.3 million is the absolute floor for Hernandez. That'd be a little more than Greene got as the highest prep RHPer and higher than slot at pick 7 ($259,000 savings). I think it'll be closer to full slot. If anything it might go as high as $7.7 the amount from pick 2.
Not sure on Hernandez. Holliday, Anderson, Doyle, and Arquette are supposed to be Boras clients. There's a couple things out there that are saying his presence changed the top of the draft. Neither the Angels or Nationals wanted to deal with him and that Seattle reaped the benefit by getting Anderson under slot because he would have fell to pick 5 through 8 if he didn't sign at $8.8. Doyle would have slid down a good bit if he didn't take a discount.
The Nationals is an odd one-unless maybe the only pro-Boras guy was Rizzo who got the sack. Although that has to be the Lerners too, who are ok working with him.
Would the Pirates get a better return for Ashcraft or Burrows than they would for Keller? It would open up the pool of teams to trade with to pretty much all teams. Other teams may view the years of cheap control as an added value. I was looking at what the Marlins received for Trevor Rogers: Stowers and Norby. Seems like a solid return.
Also on a side note, after having a so-so first half, former Pirate Luis Ortiz is now unable to pitch for the Guardians due to a gambling investigation. Ouch
The main logic for Keller over those two is that Keller is proven. If I'm a contending team trying to fill a 3/4/5 SP role, the last thing I need is unpredictability. After all, I wouldn't be kicking the tires on Keller if my rotation already was in stable condition heading into August. I need predictability so I need Keller.
To generalize, I think Keller could bring back a lot from a contender, assuming there are multiple teams making offers for him. The Pirates are in a position to possibly get an over-pay for him.
I would think the teams that would offer for Ashcraft and Burrows at the deadline are teams that are trying to rid of salary like the Pirates. Since the Pirates are most likely wanting to take on salary, it might be a trade for hitting prospects.
I'd rather try and get Benge, Mauricio, Santucci and Serrano from the Mets while throwing in Ferguson. Not sure what BTV values those guys. I would want an overpay for Keller, if not I'd rather keep him.
So per FG, that’s a 50 bat, 45+ bat, 40+ bat and a 40 arm for Keller, primarily? I’d rather add Santana and spruce up the total combo package. Any thoughts on Ewing?
BTV thinks Keller and Barco are fair for those guys from the Mets. Ferguson doesn’t move the needle much at all but categorizes he and Keller alone as a “minor overpay”.
They desperately need a reliable lefty in their bullpen, along with another high leverage arm.
A package of Keller, Santana/Bednar, and Ferguson should be their ideal pitching package and should cost a lot. (1 of Santana or Bednar, with the addition of a top prospect from them, maybe Pena who's highly regarded but far away).
I had a very controlled crash out in a group chat yesterday because Reinold Navarro didn’t pitch at LECOM with the FCL team playing there. Wanted that extra data.
Turns out it was because he got promoted to Bradenton.
Couldn't find the zone, the challenge took a strike away against Salas, thought he had a couple they could have challenge that were strikes called balls.
Robert Jr would be a really good player if he faced Pirates backend pitching and some of our relievers every night but he never would if we acquired him. Robert's not worth much according to BTV. Robert and $5M to cover some of his option next year for Zander Mueth is an overpay on the Pirates behalf. I could see Robert helping from a roster construction standpoint if we also got a guy like Spencer Jones. OF of Cruz, Roberts, Jones, Reynolds to DH and parttime OF (or traded this deadline) next year to see if we can get his legs healthy.
Better idea. Wait until the the White Sox do not pick up his club option and sign him as a free agent for about 5 million on a one-year deal with a team option for $10 million for 2027.
Probably Best idea. Find a better way to spend that $5 million this offseason.
This team that has dedicated itself to acquiring young controllable talent has been consistently terrible at giving opportunities to youngsters. The same thing you described is happening to Yorke and Cook this year. 5 year plans never work. Bring in a club President and GM (make it the same person so you can recruit literally, the best man in baseball for the job ) who is dedicated to making it work NOW. Of course that will not happen.
The problem is this team is so fubar that a make-it-work-now strategy would backfire spectacularly. Even teams with kingpin money like the Dodgers still have very good development systems and then supplement them with yuge FA signings.
Cook is old as hell-he ain’t a prospect. This team gave tons of PAs to rookies in 2023 (well over 1,000). Collectively those young guys were ass as players.
Cherington’s actually shown little interest in young anything. The Pirates have the fourth oldest group of hitters in MLB. The only regular under 26 is . . . nobody, unless you count Davis, who’s 25. This isn’t an up-and-coming bunch. It’s exactly what that one announcer said: a hodgepodge of nothingness.
The GM cannot acquire major league ready talent in a trade to save his life, young or old. The Pirates seem to draft well and occasionally acquire good minor league talent, but they absolutely cannot transition it to the major leagues, and at lower levels of the minors they also cannot develop players. Altoona in particular is the place where prospects die on the vine. One after another. It’s more than the transition to AA. Many of the guys play better immediately when they get to AAA if they escape. I think they need to get out of that park.
It's the fine wine approach to general managing. Time to crack some of those old ass bottles open and share it at the deadline. If any one wants rank old wine.
Hopefully, Liover Peguero will be able to turn the clock back to 2023 when the 22 year old came up from AAA to fill the void left by the injury to Oneil Cruz. In 39 games at Shortstop he fielded 960, and at second base in 33 games he fielded a perfect 1.000. The bat was .654 OPS which was better than older MI's such as Bae, Gonzales, Marcano, and Williams. After a good ST in 2024, he was sent back to the minors for more seasoning. He has been on a downward spiral ever since.
Is it a problem of the team or the player? Hard to figure without being there, but good teams do not allow situations like that to occur, especially when we remember that we traded Starling Marte to get Peguero. Either a bad trade or bad development - both of those functions belong to BC.
Catching up with another ex-Buc, Frazier was almost the hero last night hitting a 2-run PH double in the top of the 10th but then Stowers hit a 2-run HR after a run had scored to win it in the bottom of the 10th. It was his 5th HR in the last two games.
Also, flipping off the Pirates game led me to watching a beautiful inning by the Padres: Hit the opposite way, hit through the hole left by a hit-and-run, successful safety squeeze, hit, SB, walk, grand slam (Machado). Small ball and big ball all in the same inning.
Some fun baseball out there when I can force myself to look away from the Pirates.
Quinn Priester's line against the Dodgers last night: 6 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 BBs, _10_ Ks.
His ERA is down to 3.33 which is better than any of our starters except, of course, Skenes (Keller is at 3.48). We have done well overall with pitching, but our success isn't at the level of what the Brewers seem to do year after year.
The Red Sox probably got a better return, though that won't be known for a while since the players they got back were in A-ball. Maybe Yorke will make that statement look silly. I hope so.
But yeah, I'm sure they wish they had held on to Priester.
I'm not fretting, just happy for Quinn while noting that some of the praise for our pitching development may be overstated though it certainly looks good compared to our development of position players.
When we only have dismal baseball and hope for the future we all become asset managers rather than fans. If we want fans who care less about players as assets, winning more baseball games would be a good direction to begin in.
As a college basketball fan of a mid-major basketball team, we lose many of our good players to schools from bigger conferences. I think it is natural to keep following them to see how they are doing at their new school. I kind of feel the same way with former Pirate players. I personally want most of the players to do well, but not as much as the players we bring back in return.
Yes. Cardinals fans are obsessed with players such as Adolis Garcia because he had one good year with the Rangers. I am obsessed with Brett Rooker and Ryan O'Hearn because the Royals gave them away for nothing (and now Devanney... at least he went to the Pirates). Braves' fans continue to gnash their teeth over losing Contreras. It is natural.
Those players are actually good for an extended period of time. As opposed to Quinn who has had a good two months. I get it with a guy like Cole. But kvetching about Quinn or Charles goddamn McAdoo? Just…no.
We need to remember that sometimes that kick in the butt of being traded can be just the right amount of reality needed, and especially when you have been unloaded twice. Congrats to the Brewers who obviously made him feel very comfortable.
Good point. You start bouncing around the league and ending up on the Pirates, Rockies, Marlins you better go all out because your chances are diminishing.
The Priester I am seeing with the Brewers is similar to the Priester I saw in Indy, bu just a few less bad games. A couple years ago in Indy I saw him pitch a game where he fooled hitters to the point where it was laughable. The next game he looked like the worst pitcher in the organization.
I saw that this morning. Sometimes it’s so very painful to follow this club. I can’t help but pull for the Brewers, as they really are everything I wish the Pirates could be. 😮💨
Sal Frelick is what I hoped Siani or Head would become. And he could have a Popsicle night. It's probably Fraylick but we can say Freelick for one game.
I used to hate the Brewers in their Braun/Fielder days but now I admire them as, like you say, representing everything the Pirates could/should be. Amazingly, since they don't have a high payroll or get high draft picks, they're competitive year after year.
As I've said before, Nutting's first mistake after firing Huntington was hiring Williams which forced them to go with a search firm who did what search firms are notorious for doing, went hiring the "safe" choice of a former GM instead of taking a chance on a fast-rising assistant GM like Arnold.
Konnor Griffin not in the A+ lineup last night - did I miss something? Will Taylor didn't miss - 3 run HR to get GBO started.
Nice rehab (TJ) outing by Johan Oviedo at AA - 3.1 IP, 1 ER, 0BB/3K. He had 3.1 IP at BRD before the AS Break, so he is rounding into shape at just the right time. Traded from St Louis in 2022 he started 7 games for the Pirates in 2022 (2-2, 3.23 ERA), and was in the Rotation in 2023 with 32 Starts, 178 IP, 9-14, 4.31 ERA, 1.9 fWAR - second most IP to Mitch Keller who had 194 IP, and second best SP ERA to Keller who had a 4.21 ERA.
One of the Pirates long line of young Catchers, Richard Ramirez, 20, is hitting very well at BRD after being promoted from the FCL. Omar Alfonzo, 22, who was promoted to AA is struggling at the plate, but zero errors or PB's and a 63% Caught Stealing rate - 5 of 8 attempts. In the middle of those two is Axiel Plaz, 20, who has a 798 OPS at A with 11 doubles, 9 HR, 40 RBI in 200 AB. Not sure if he is still at A or was promoted to A+.
There is all this wringing of hands over the economics of baseball and a possible labor stoppage. I think people have it completely backwards when it comes to the economics of baseball. Everyone wants more revenue sharing and a salary cap (which presumably comes with a floor).
The problem with the Pirates is not that they have low revenues. Quite the opposite. They have low revenues because they have been the worst team in baseball for 30 years. More revenue sharing and a salary cap are not going to fix this problem. The reason that the Pirates have been the worst team in baseball for 30 years is because they can be and still be profitable. Revenue sharing and salary mandates from the league will only make the problem worse: not better.
There are already a score of perverse incentives built into the system. The current revenue sharing scheme insures Nutting against loss if he fails to produce a product that anyone wants to buy. Why would he fire Ben Cherington if having Ben around is like hanging out with a like-minded frat buddy from his old college days? Even if Cherington does nothing to make the team better and actively makes it worse, baseball has insured Nutting against loss.
The Pirates are rewarded with extra compensation picks in the draft every year for not spending on major-league salary. They get better draft picks if they are bad. This allows them to sell the illusion and convince themselves that they are always "rebuilding." Take away these incentives to bust and "rebuild," and they would be under a lot more pressure to produce a competitive team every year.
If you want to make baseball more competitive, placing more socialism and more welfare for bad businessmen to hire bad GMs into the sport will not do so. It will just encourage more bad businessman, like Nutting, to buy teams. Removing incentives to failure will force owners like Nutting to sell, and the only people willing to buy in will be those with plans for growth. The solution is not to coddle Nutting so he can hang out with frat buddies every year. The solution is to drive his the inherited-money, trust-fund types out of the sport, so that dynamic, bright, risk-taking owners come in.
14 different teams have won the World Series since 2000. 14 different teams have won the Super Bowl since 2000. 14 different teams have won the Stanley Cup since 2000. 10 different teams have won an NBA championship since 2000. These other major North-American sports that are supposedly a model of competition for MLB are no more competitive than MLB.
If you want the Pittsburgh Pirates to become the baseball mirror image of the Cleveland Browns, then by all means, have a labor stoppage, cancel or reduce the season in 2027 for the 3rd time in 7 years, watch interest in baseball crash again, like it did after the labor stoppage of the 1990s. Just don't think that any of this sturm and drang is going to make Bob Nutting's Pirates any more competitive than they are currently.
"The game wouldn’t change, at least for the better, for like 90% of fans"
This exactly. which is why the CBA has nothing to do with overall revenue growth. That has to come from new markets and the general popularity of the sport (including little league, high school, college), not bending over backwards to try to get 4,000 more people to show up for a Pirates game or 5,000 more people from Miami to purchase an MLB.tv subscription.
You make compelling points. I don’t agree with all of them. But you have laid out the exact arguments that large market, high revenue owners have used for years to avoid a salary and greater revenue sharing.
I would go even further actually. Remove baseball's monopoly. Allow independent leagues to flourish and organize. Get rid of the draft and make every player a free agent: pro or amateur. Then relegate the 2 worst teams every year out of MLB and promote 2 teams from independent leagues who win a tournament of all the independent leagues. Then baseball would be fun... IMO.. and truly competitive. Instead of minor-league development, MLB teams could "lend" young players to independent league teams for seasoning.
One final note. If you do put a salary cap in, don't be surprised if a lot of higher end players move on to the Japanese and Korean leagues. MLB could quickly lose its position as the "premier" league. The NBA and the NFL have no such foreign competitors.
TLDR: Bad management is bad management no matter what the overall system. Anyone who thinks that a salary cap and floor will magically transform the Pirates into a competitive team is delusional.
You have people like DK who keep insisting that a new labor agreement will somehow magically transform the Pirates. It worries me a little because, if there is a labor stoppage in 2027 for most or all of the season, I am not sure that baseball will recover in my lifetime. This would be the 3rd time in 7 years that the season is either cancelled or mostly destroyed. The damage to the sport would be incalculable. And for what? To coddle the 3 or 4 Bob Nuttings and Monforts of the league who run their teams into the ground? Why? The better solution is to force these guys out by ending all the coddling so that their badly run businesses stop increasing in value every year despite their incompetence.
I doubt it has anything to do with Nuttin. MLB never had much interest in a cap before because they believed the Yankees and Dodgers were their big drivers of revenue. Now they’re suddenly committed to it because streaming has replaced cable. MLB can’t just sell its broadcasts to networks, to be included in one-size-fits-all cable packages. Now it has to sell to individuals who can pick and choose their streaming content. Fans outside the biggest markets matter more.
Manfred doesn’t give a s*** about Nuttin or competition. He only cares about maximizing revenue.
Major league-wide network deals were never a major component of MLB revenue. Now streaming does matter. However, the real growth market is to attract more Latin, Korean, and Japanese players and grow baseball internationally into new markets if your goal is to increase MLB.tv revenues. Pittsburgh is just not that important in the grand scheme of things.
I honestly don't think that they are going to do much of anything with the current CBA, and this is much ado about nothing. My main issue is countering DK's naive assumption that he is selling to his audience that some CBA magic is suddenly going to transform Nutting's Pirates into a competitive operation.
You’re forgetting the fact that most of the local cable deals fell apart because the value of the broadcast rights fell well below the contract pricing. That was a huge component of MLB revenue. When it’s most teams, the Yankees and Dodgers aren’t enough to carry the sport. There’s a reason MLB revenue growth lags the other three sports. I have no use for Manfred and he’s provided no details about his “solution,” but he’s not wrong in saying MLB’s economic model doesn’t work.
Nuttin is a separate problem. They can get a perfect CBA, whatever that might be, but an incompetent owner will still lose. Just ask Cleveland Browns fans.
A significant (all?) portion of the growth of the NBA has been from Chinese and Brazilian markets. I would say that all of these sports are approaching or reached peak revenue from the U.S. . The NFL has almost 0 chance of any international audience, and I would be most concerned with the prospects for growing revenue for that sport going forward.
Baseball will be fine if they follow the lead of the NBA and promote the sport heavily in Latin and Asian markets. I really don't think that the CBA has much or anything to do with that growth. As you say though Manfred has not shown any signs of being an entrepreneurial genius. There are owners though who are clever businessmen, and they will, hopefully, put the kibosh on any silliness.
So the line of succession is clear. IKF is next out w Llover and Devanny next up. Then, BIG pitcher shuffle w Bubba and Oviedo to plug the wholes. Pham, who prolly nets the 19yr old lottery pick, replaced by Guy From Bednar/Ferguson/Keller trade(s).
Ty Webb of Caddyshack fame to the Pirates: You, uh, you’re not good. Ya stink
Willits signed for 8.2, almost 3M below slot.
My guess is Holliday will sign for a little over $8.8 to give him the largest bonus in the draft, he's also represented by Boras. Hernandez will get at least $7.3 but more realistically around slot, to insure top 5 money.
The 5 and 7 picks have signed, 5 under slot, 7 at slot. I think around $7.2 million each. Hernandez should be around slot +/- just a little. Pick 8 was $750,000 under slot and pick 9 is $600,000 under slot. With picks 1, 2, and 3 coming under slot, only picks 4, 6, 7, and 10 will be at or +/- slot value.
Pick 1 $8.2 million, pick 2 $7.7 million, pick 3 $8.8 million, pick 4 unknown, pick 5 $7.25 million, pick 6 unknown, pick 7 $7.15 million, pick 8 $6.2 million, pick 9 $5.75 million, pick 10 unknown.
I think the pirates should shoot for 500k under slot, getting 2 first round picks maybe in the top 7 is not the worst thing in the world.
I think $7.3 million is the absolute floor for Hernandez. That'd be a little more than Greene got as the highest prep RHPer and higher than slot at pick 7 ($259,000 savings). I think it'll be closer to full slot. If anything it might go as high as $7.7 the amount from pick 2.
Who is his agent?
Not sure on Hernandez. Holliday, Anderson, Doyle, and Arquette are supposed to be Boras clients. There's a couple things out there that are saying his presence changed the top of the draft. Neither the Angels or Nationals wanted to deal with him and that Seattle reaped the benefit by getting Anderson under slot because he would have fell to pick 5 through 8 if he didn't sign at $8.8. Doyle would have slid down a good bit if he didn't take a discount.
The Nationals is an odd one-unless maybe the only pro-Boras guy was Rizzo who got the sack. Although that has to be the Lerners too, who are ok working with him.
Would the Pirates get a better return for Ashcraft or Burrows than they would for Keller? It would open up the pool of teams to trade with to pretty much all teams. Other teams may view the years of cheap control as an added value. I was looking at what the Marlins received for Trevor Rogers: Stowers and Norby. Seems like a solid return.
Also on a side note, after having a so-so first half, former Pirate Luis Ortiz is now unable to pitch for the Guardians due to a gambling investigation. Ouch
The main logic for Keller over those two is that Keller is proven. If I'm a contending team trying to fill a 3/4/5 SP role, the last thing I need is unpredictability. After all, I wouldn't be kicking the tires on Keller if my rotation already was in stable condition heading into August. I need predictability so I need Keller.
To generalize, I think Keller could bring back a lot from a contender, assuming there are multiple teams making offers for him. The Pirates are in a position to possibly get an over-pay for him.
I would think the teams that would offer for Ashcraft and Burrows at the deadline are teams that are trying to rid of salary like the Pirates. Since the Pirates are most likely wanting to take on salary, it might be a trade for hitting prospects.
According to BTV:
Keller = 34 surplus value
Ashcraft = 15.4
Burrows = 4.8
At the time of the Marlins trade, Trevor Rogers was around 12 surplus.
Grayson Rodriguez of the O's with new elbow pain. I don't think we'd get Basallo for Keller but maybe a package of:
Mayo
#4 Austin Overn (CF)
#5 Elvin Garcia (3B)
AAA Dylan Beavers
I'd rather try and get Benge, Mauricio, Santucci and Serrano from the Mets while throwing in Ferguson. Not sure what BTV values those guys. I would want an overpay for Keller, if not I'd rather keep him.
https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/mitch-keller-stats-against-the-mets
Keller has been an ACE against the Mets in his career.
So per FG, that’s a 50 bat, 45+ bat, 40+ bat and a 40 arm for Keller, primarily? I’d rather add Santana and spruce up the total combo package. Any thoughts on Ewing?
He steals a lot of bases, don't know much otherwise.
I think Santucci and Serrano are underrated. I'd throw in Santana if they added Pena to the package.
Ronny Mo would swing at a horse turd if you threw it up there. Dude is a hacker. Like him as a throw in tho.
Benge would be the main piece.
McLean instead of Serrano? Santana instead of Ferguson? This would be a deal the Pirates should do.
Yep, I don't know if the Mets would give up McLean though.
BTV thinks Keller and Barco are fair for those guys from the Mets. Ferguson doesn’t move the needle much at all but categorizes he and Keller alone as a “minor overpay”.
They desperately need a reliable lefty in their bullpen, along with another high leverage arm.
A package of Keller, Santana/Bednar, and Ferguson should be their ideal pitching package and should cost a lot. (1 of Santana or Bednar, with the addition of a top prospect from them, maybe Pena who's highly regarded but far away).
No way do I give up Barco and Keller for that package.
I wouldn't either, I'd want Santucci to be coming back as the 3rd piece for Keller alone. Behind Benge and Mauricio.
I had a very controlled crash out in a group chat yesterday because Reinold Navarro didn’t pitch at LECOM with the FCL team playing there. Wanted that extra data.
Turns out it was because he got promoted to Bradenton.
So we get the data anyways
Blanco is not listed on the FCL bench in today’s gameday, so I’m guessing he’s back with the Marauders.
Got a single in his first at bat with Bradenton.
Not a good debut there for Navarro.
Couldn't find the zone, the challenge took a strike away against Salas, thought he had a couple they could have challenge that were strikes called balls.
That would explain why he didn’t play in either game of the DH yesterday too
Been on the road and didn’t see this. 👍🏻👍🏻
Trade idea, mitch Jeb and Christin Curtis for lois Robertson Jr and 13 million dollars and the pirates pick up his 2026 club option.
Robert Jr would be a really good player if he faced Pirates backend pitching and some of our relievers every night but he never would if we acquired him. Robert's not worth much according to BTV. Robert and $5M to cover some of his option next year for Zander Mueth is an overpay on the Pirates behalf. I could see Robert helping from a roster construction standpoint if we also got a guy like Spencer Jones. OF of Cruz, Roberts, Jones, Reynolds to DH and parttime OF (or traded this deadline) next year to see if we can get his legs healthy.
Better idea. Wait until the the White Sox do not pick up his club option and sign him as a free agent for about 5 million on a one-year deal with a team option for $10 million for 2027.
Probably Best idea. Find a better way to spend that $5 million this offseason.
u must've liked the archer trade, huh
Nah , the more I think about it chicago can just not pick up his option and save 20 million and trade him as a rental. So never mind.
This team that has dedicated itself to acquiring young controllable talent has been consistently terrible at giving opportunities to youngsters. The same thing you described is happening to Yorke and Cook this year. 5 year plans never work. Bring in a club President and GM (make it the same person so you can recruit literally, the best man in baseball for the job ) who is dedicated to making it work NOW. Of course that will not happen.
The problem is this team is so fubar that a make-it-work-now strategy would backfire spectacularly. Even teams with kingpin money like the Dodgers still have very good development systems and then supplement them with yuge FA signings.
Cook is old as hell-he ain’t a prospect. This team gave tons of PAs to rookies in 2023 (well over 1,000). Collectively those young guys were ass as players.
Cherington’s actually shown little interest in young anything. The Pirates have the fourth oldest group of hitters in MLB. The only regular under 26 is . . . nobody, unless you count Davis, who’s 25. This isn’t an up-and-coming bunch. It’s exactly what that one announcer said: a hodgepodge of nothingness.
and when they do trade for young talent they just sit in aaa. bizarre shit
I like the Devanney deal but he ain’t young. That’s like Phil Leotardo referring to his 47 year old brother as “just a kid.”
regardless, he's still a prospect. and they'd rather they trade for a prospect and let them sit in the minors instead of the major league team
My guess is Devanney sits in Indy until the season’s last week.
The GM cannot acquire major league ready talent in a trade to save his life, young or old. The Pirates seem to draft well and occasionally acquire good minor league talent, but they absolutely cannot transition it to the major leagues, and at lower levels of the minors they also cannot develop players. Altoona in particular is the place where prospects die on the vine. One after another. It’s more than the transition to AA. Many of the guys play better immediately when they get to AAA if they escape. I think they need to get out of that park.
It's the fine wine approach to general managing. Time to crack some of those old ass bottles open and share it at the deadline. If any one wants rank old wine.
Hopefully, Liover Peguero will be able to turn the clock back to 2023 when the 22 year old came up from AAA to fill the void left by the injury to Oneil Cruz. In 39 games at Shortstop he fielded 960, and at second base in 33 games he fielded a perfect 1.000. The bat was .654 OPS which was better than older MI's such as Bae, Gonzales, Marcano, and Williams. After a good ST in 2024, he was sent back to the minors for more seasoning. He has been on a downward spiral ever since.
Is it a problem of the team or the player? Hard to figure without being there, but good teams do not allow situations like that to occur, especially when we remember that we traded Starling Marte to get Peguero. Either a bad trade or bad development - both of those functions belong to BC.
I think likely both a bad trade and bad development. Guy isn't even hitting in AAA at this point.
Shitty trade
Catching up with another ex-Buc, Frazier was almost the hero last night hitting a 2-run PH double in the top of the 10th but then Stowers hit a 2-run HR after a run had scored to win it in the bottom of the 10th. It was his 5th HR in the last two games.
Also, flipping off the Pirates game led me to watching a beautiful inning by the Padres: Hit the opposite way, hit through the hole left by a hit-and-run, successful safety squeeze, hit, SB, walk, grand slam (Machado). Small ball and big ball all in the same inning.
Some fun baseball out there when I can force myself to look away from the Pirates.
Quinn Priester's line against the Dodgers last night: 6 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 BBs, _10_ Ks.
His ERA is down to 3.33 which is better than any of our starters except, of course, Skenes (Keller is at 3.48). We have done well overall with pitching, but our success isn't at the level of what the Brewers seem to do year after year.
And the Red Sox need pitching…..
The Red Sox probably got a better return, though that won't be known for a while since the players they got back were in A-ball. Maybe Yorke will make that statement look silly. I hope so.
But yeah, I'm sure they wish they had held on to Priester.
They gave him away. Why?
Does any other fanbase fret over the fate of former players like the Buccos fanbase?
I'm not fretting, just happy for Quinn while noting that some of the praise for our pitching development may be overstated though it certainly looks good compared to our development of position players.
When we only have dismal baseball and hope for the future we all become asset managers rather than fans. If we want fans who care less about players as assets, winning more baseball games would be a good direction to begin in.
As a college basketball fan of a mid-major basketball team, we lose many of our good players to schools from bigger conferences. I think it is natural to keep following them to see how they are doing at their new school. I kind of feel the same way with former Pirate players. I personally want most of the players to do well, but not as much as the players we bring back in return.
Who is said basketball team?
Yes. Cardinals fans are obsessed with players such as Adolis Garcia because he had one good year with the Rangers. I am obsessed with Brett Rooker and Ryan O'Hearn because the Royals gave them away for nothing (and now Devanney... at least he went to the Pirates). Braves' fans continue to gnash their teeth over losing Contreras. It is natural.
What's Jose Bautista up to these days?
I think he is not only done as a player, but done icing his bruised face from a Rougned Odor punch.
Why you son of a
He is a special assisant to the Leones del Escogido in the Dominican League and was just inducted into the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame.
Those players are actually good for an extended period of time. As opposed to Quinn who has had a good two months. I get it with a guy like Cole. But kvetching about Quinn or Charles goddamn McAdoo? Just…no.
What about Baz?
We need to remember that sometimes that kick in the butt of being traded can be just the right amount of reality needed, and especially when you have been unloaded twice. Congrats to the Brewers who obviously made him feel very comfortable.
Good point. You start bouncing around the league and ending up on the Pirates, Rockies, Marlins you better go all out because your chances are diminishing.
The Priester I am seeing with the Brewers is similar to the Priester I saw in Indy, bu just a few less bad games. A couple years ago in Indy I saw him pitch a game where he fooled hitters to the point where it was laughable. The next game he looked like the worst pitcher in the organization.
Priester's last 5 starts with the Brewers
6/22 3 in 9 hits
6/28 7 in 1 hit 11 k's
7/4 4.2 in 7 hits
7/11 6 in 4 hits
7/18 6 in 3 hits 0 er 10 l0 k's
I saw that this morning. Sometimes it’s so very painful to follow this club. I can’t help but pull for the Brewers, as they really are everything I wish the Pirates could be. 😮💨
Sal Frelick is what I hoped Siani or Head would become. And he could have a Popsicle night. It's probably Fraylick but we can say Freelick for one game.
I used to hate the Brewers in their Braun/Fielder days but now I admire them as, like you say, representing everything the Pirates could/should be. Amazingly, since they don't have a high payroll or get high draft picks, they're competitive year after year.
As I've said before, Nutting's first mistake after firing Huntington was hiring Williams which forced them to go with a search firm who did what search firms are notorious for doing, went hiring the "safe" choice of a former GM instead of taking a chance on a fast-rising assistant GM like Arnold.
shoulda hired their gm i guess!
Reason number 11 why ben cherington should have been let go when shelty was fired.
Konnor Griffin not in the A+ lineup last night - did I miss something? Will Taylor didn't miss - 3 run HR to get GBO started.
Nice rehab (TJ) outing by Johan Oviedo at AA - 3.1 IP, 1 ER, 0BB/3K. He had 3.1 IP at BRD before the AS Break, so he is rounding into shape at just the right time. Traded from St Louis in 2022 he started 7 games for the Pirates in 2022 (2-2, 3.23 ERA), and was in the Rotation in 2023 with 32 Starts, 178 IP, 9-14, 4.31 ERA, 1.9 fWAR - second most IP to Mitch Keller who had 194 IP, and second best SP ERA to Keller who had a 4.21 ERA.
One of the Pirates long line of young Catchers, Richard Ramirez, 20, is hitting very well at BRD after being promoted from the FCL. Omar Alfonzo, 22, who was promoted to AA is struggling at the plate, but zero errors or PB's and a 63% Caught Stealing rate - 5 of 8 attempts. In the middle of those two is Axiel Plaz, 20, who has a 798 OPS at A with 11 doubles, 9 HR, 40 RBI in 200 AB. Not sure if he is still at A or was promoted to A+.
There is all this wringing of hands over the economics of baseball and a possible labor stoppage. I think people have it completely backwards when it comes to the economics of baseball. Everyone wants more revenue sharing and a salary cap (which presumably comes with a floor).
The problem with the Pirates is not that they have low revenues. Quite the opposite. They have low revenues because they have been the worst team in baseball for 30 years. More revenue sharing and a salary cap are not going to fix this problem. The reason that the Pirates have been the worst team in baseball for 30 years is because they can be and still be profitable. Revenue sharing and salary mandates from the league will only make the problem worse: not better.
There are already a score of perverse incentives built into the system. The current revenue sharing scheme insures Nutting against loss if he fails to produce a product that anyone wants to buy. Why would he fire Ben Cherington if having Ben around is like hanging out with a like-minded frat buddy from his old college days? Even if Cherington does nothing to make the team better and actively makes it worse, baseball has insured Nutting against loss.
The Pirates are rewarded with extra compensation picks in the draft every year for not spending on major-league salary. They get better draft picks if they are bad. This allows them to sell the illusion and convince themselves that they are always "rebuilding." Take away these incentives to bust and "rebuild," and they would be under a lot more pressure to produce a competitive team every year.
If you want to make baseball more competitive, placing more socialism and more welfare for bad businessmen to hire bad GMs into the sport will not do so. It will just encourage more bad businessman, like Nutting, to buy teams. Removing incentives to failure will force owners like Nutting to sell, and the only people willing to buy in will be those with plans for growth. The solution is not to coddle Nutting so he can hang out with frat buddies every year. The solution is to drive his the inherited-money, trust-fund types out of the sport, so that dynamic, bright, risk-taking owners come in.
14 different teams have won the World Series since 2000. 14 different teams have won the Super Bowl since 2000. 14 different teams have won the Stanley Cup since 2000. 10 different teams have won an NBA championship since 2000. These other major North-American sports that are supposedly a model of competition for MLB are no more competitive than MLB.
If you want the Pittsburgh Pirates to become the baseball mirror image of the Cleveland Browns, then by all means, have a labor stoppage, cancel or reduce the season in 2027 for the 3rd time in 7 years, watch interest in baseball crash again, like it did after the labor stoppage of the 1990s. Just don't think that any of this sturm and drang is going to make Bob Nutting's Pirates any more competitive than they are currently.
Amen to all this.
Only thing I’d add in support is that I think pirate fans drastically miscalculate how popular a capped league would be.
The game wouldn’t change, at least for the better, for like 90% of fans. Those clubs would have no greater probability of winning than they do now.
"The game wouldn’t change, at least for the better, for like 90% of fans"
This exactly. which is why the CBA has nothing to do with overall revenue growth. That has to come from new markets and the general popularity of the sport (including little league, high school, college), not bending over backwards to try to get 4,000 more people to show up for a Pirates game or 5,000 more people from Miami to purchase an MLB.tv subscription.
You make compelling points. I don’t agree with all of them. But you have laid out the exact arguments that large market, high revenue owners have used for years to avoid a salary and greater revenue sharing.
I would go even further actually. Remove baseball's monopoly. Allow independent leagues to flourish and organize. Get rid of the draft and make every player a free agent: pro or amateur. Then relegate the 2 worst teams every year out of MLB and promote 2 teams from independent leagues who win a tournament of all the independent leagues. Then baseball would be fun... IMO.. and truly competitive. Instead of minor-league development, MLB teams could "lend" young players to independent league teams for seasoning.
One final note. If you do put a salary cap in, don't be surprised if a lot of higher end players move on to the Japanese and Korean leagues. MLB could quickly lose its position as the "premier" league. The NBA and the NFL have no such foreign competitors.
TLDR: Bad management is bad management no matter what the overall system. Anyone who thinks that a salary cap and floor will magically transform the Pirates into a competitive team is delusional.
You have people like DK who keep insisting that a new labor agreement will somehow magically transform the Pirates. It worries me a little because, if there is a labor stoppage in 2027 for most or all of the season, I am not sure that baseball will recover in my lifetime. This would be the 3rd time in 7 years that the season is either cancelled or mostly destroyed. The damage to the sport would be incalculable. And for what? To coddle the 3 or 4 Bob Nuttings and Monforts of the league who run their teams into the ground? Why? The better solution is to force these guys out by ending all the coddling so that their badly run businesses stop increasing in value every year despite their incompetence.
I doubt it has anything to do with Nuttin. MLB never had much interest in a cap before because they believed the Yankees and Dodgers were their big drivers of revenue. Now they’re suddenly committed to it because streaming has replaced cable. MLB can’t just sell its broadcasts to networks, to be included in one-size-fits-all cable packages. Now it has to sell to individuals who can pick and choose their streaming content. Fans outside the biggest markets matter more.
Manfred doesn’t give a s*** about Nuttin or competition. He only cares about maximizing revenue.
Major league-wide network deals were never a major component of MLB revenue. Now streaming does matter. However, the real growth market is to attract more Latin, Korean, and Japanese players and grow baseball internationally into new markets if your goal is to increase MLB.tv revenues. Pittsburgh is just not that important in the grand scheme of things.
I honestly don't think that they are going to do much of anything with the current CBA, and this is much ado about nothing. My main issue is countering DK's naive assumption that he is selling to his audience that some CBA magic is suddenly going to transform Nutting's Pirates into a competitive operation.
You’re forgetting the fact that most of the local cable deals fell apart because the value of the broadcast rights fell well below the contract pricing. That was a huge component of MLB revenue. When it’s most teams, the Yankees and Dodgers aren’t enough to carry the sport. There’s a reason MLB revenue growth lags the other three sports. I have no use for Manfred and he’s provided no details about his “solution,” but he’s not wrong in saying MLB’s economic model doesn’t work.
Nuttin is a separate problem. They can get a perfect CBA, whatever that might be, but an incompetent owner will still lose. Just ask Cleveland Browns fans.
A significant (all?) portion of the growth of the NBA has been from Chinese and Brazilian markets. I would say that all of these sports are approaching or reached peak revenue from the U.S. . The NFL has almost 0 chance of any international audience, and I would be most concerned with the prospects for growing revenue for that sport going forward.
Baseball will be fine if they follow the lead of the NBA and promote the sport heavily in Latin and Asian markets. I really don't think that the CBA has much or anything to do with that growth. As you say though Manfred has not shown any signs of being an entrepreneurial genius. There are owners though who are clever businessmen, and they will, hopefully, put the kibosh on any silliness.
So the line of succession is clear. IKF is next out w Llover and Devanny next up. Then, BIG pitcher shuffle w Bubba and Oviedo to plug the wholes. Pham, who prolly nets the 19yr old lottery pick, replaced by Guy From Bednar/Ferguson/Keller trade(s).
Go Bugs!
Chandler looked pretty bad last night in AAA so I wouldn't be counting on him coming up and setting the league on fire immediately.