Yorke now hitting .392 since the trade. Too bad the Pirates don't have somebody with, say, a .549 OPS he could step in for. Or .569. Or .507. Or .408. Just to take a few random numbers. Oh . . . wait . . . those are actual Cherington Pirates.
A team can only have 2 top 6 picks in consecutive years, disqualified the A's. Teams that pay into the revenue sharing can only receive a top 6 pick one year, following years pick can be pick 10 at best, White Sox. Happened to the Nats for the 2024 draft.
Apparently Manfred and his baseball-hating minions are considering a rule to require starting pitchers to stay in for six innings. I don’t even know what to say.
It's like every institution that exists now. Just engineered to make people stuck with it unhappy. The fucking lawyers and activists. Just ruining the world before our eyes.
I saw he just struck out in the 5th. Haines & company must have had a FaceTime video conference with him in the 4th inning and explained Grand Slams are “NOT” the Pirate way
Chambers was a great guy, never saw him without a smile. I talked to him for a long time one day for an interview. Terrific answers. Easy to root for as he had to battle through injuries most of his pro career. He was really close with a lot of the players too. I know a few of them took it really hard and still talked highly about him years after he passed
As the Greeks living around Plato's time noted, "A person will be happy only when he or she is dead." The reason for this? Your friends would remember and speak well of the dead person.
Maybe this has already been discussed and I missed it. How does Billy Cook get rated 24th ( MLB pipeline) in what appears to be a pretty bad system behind guys like Shalin Polanco and Lonnie White? Maybe I’m overvaluing him but he seems to be exactly the type of player that should be getting a look. Good defense, big arm, hits for average and some power. What are the Pirates waiting for?
Pipeline and BA are very slow to move on from failed prospects like Polanco, who's clearly toast. They've got too few people covering too much territory. BA was better when they had team correspondents doing their top 30s, although the quality could be variable.
At this point I feel like Barco is the far better prospect despite being ranked lower. I hope Solometo can get things figured out but the Velo drop is concerning with that delivery
The Nuttings are not known for taking orders fr.om their die hard fans. Most big-money people could care at all for popular opinion. Tywin Lannister clearly expressed their attitude: "The lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep."
You also appear to be the type that would sign petitions to have Nutting sale the team, fire Shelton and fire BC. Hell, if they had rallies, you would attend those.
Briefly, we were discussing efforts with state senators. That said, common folk won't march to protest climate change inaction, that is, an existential threat. So, it's unsurprising that they won't protest the Nuttings. The loud ones find messages boards on which to vent. The latter is a bit like punching a wall when angry.
Read Roger Pielke (The Honest Broker on Substack). He and his dad before him are longtime experts on climate change. Most climate catastrophism is just bad models and greenwashing capitalism to help Steve Job's widow and Bill Gates make money off the Federal govt forcing you to ditch your natgas stove. Any climate protest that doesn't begin with forcing the Davos set to give up their private planes is an absolute joke and a non-starter.
I'm the dummy and hate to post to this thread which is becoming a dumpster fire elsewhere, but clue me in some. Was NuttingHostage effort successful or not. I truly don't know so I am not being a wise donkey. I tend to think owners (not just in Pgh) don't really pay attention to that stuff.. but am more than willing to change my mind if it has successfully occurred.
NuttingHostage himself was an online troll who totally obsessed over Nutting. Don't think he had anything to do with the Irate Fans thing. I should say the late NuttingHostage. It was kinda sad. I heard from somebody who knew him, or knew somebody who knew him, who said he spent his last years raging against Nutting and harassing all the nat'l baseball writers (Law and the like), demanding that they "expose the fraud." I despise Nutting and all, but jeez, I have butterfly plants to take care of.
Don't start having another breakdown and focusing on me again C22. It always ends badly for you and you disappear for 3-4 days afterwards. You've already notched the r slur and the f slur in your two last breakdowns. What is even left?
Are you unable to edit? Do you have so few thoughts that you have no need to? I know you edited that homophobic f slur out of that post here a few weeks back and so do the site admins because they see all the edits :) Careful, Tim Williams might come on here and suggest you get more in touch with his pheminine side.
It's hard to even discuss what could be done to improve the team this offseason with Cherington and Shelton still here. Feels like they've got to both go before fans just completely check out even heading into March and April next year. For example, I almost felt compelled to try and make a case for why the Pirates should try and trade for Nolan Gorman to platoon with Hayes next year but it's just like "meh, who cares about this team"
And sadly, next year's opening day payroll will probably be in the $86 - $88 million range, and I think Keller, IKF and Reynolds will add about $18 million (or something close to that) over what they are getting this year.
And I know IKF is making $7.5 this year, but the Bucs are paying a pittance of that. Next year it's full freight.
It'd be fun to swap Shelton for Wehner because Wehner would actually get pissed about losing. Shelton has been a loser his entire life and is totally at home with losing.
The whole idea that there aren’t total incompetents running teams because it’s a billion dollar team ignores reality. The Rockies had their analytics team doing laundry and AGM’s acting as clubhouse attendants for the opposing team. The Angels set up a weight room in a tent in their parking lot of their spring training complex. The current Pirates management team didn’t understand the rules of the minor league portion of the rule 5 and tried to take guys who weren’t available. Jack Zdurencik allegedly had an assistant put together a resume package for the Mariners claiming to be some analytics whiz when he knew nothing about the subject.
For the record, I’m not saying Cherington and Shelton are idiots or anything. I’m just inclined to think they have bad ideas. I get that constantly harping on every little thing can be counter-productive, but so is deifying them. Many of these guys get ahead the same as people in any other organization: on shady politics, selling themselves to clueless to management, Peter Principle etc.
Yeah, if someone is going to make that argument, then it would apply to managers like Lamont and Russell and GMs like Littlefield (and I'm just thinking of infamous Pirate figures--there are even better (worse) examples from other organizations).
I wouldn't refer to such people as losers but I also don't think they were good at their jobs, perhaps because they were promoted beyond their abilities. I've seen that happen with my organization--someone who may be very competent at one job gets promoted into a job they're not a good fit for and that creates problems, sometimes bordering on disastrous.
That was Littlefield's biggest problem, the area he was truly good at became backburner because the areas he was not competent became his main areas of focus. It had a ripple affect through the organization. Yes he was a terrible GM, he was even a worse hire because he was put in a position he wasn't ready or qualified for. I have way more respect for him than Cherington do to the simple fact that he didn't try to talk above or around those asking questions and he didn't push the finishing line to a mythical place down the road.
He's a career .400 winning percentage manager. When he gets fired in Pittsburgh, he'll never coach another MLB team as manager again. I do agree that following a team this pathetic does make us losers. That's why I plan to walk away this March if/when Cherington/Shelton are still here. It's a choice we can all make if we want to.
Plenty would agree with broadcaster John Wehner, who told The Fan earlier this week, “The thing I look at and get more frustrated with than anything — is the effort there consistently? Is it there 100% of the time? At times, it’s not.”
Good for Wehner speaking up, but this should have been clear to BC long ago, but especially this year. Too many players take plays off......head-lined by Cruz, Grandal, Tellez and even Cutch.
Why would the players put out any effort when the GM and manager don't? They've both made it clear that performance is irrelevant. You can bat .150, look at third strikes down the middle with the bases loaded all day every day, and your job is still safe. There are zero performance standards on the Pirates and the players have to realize it.
The next 10 are against Mariners, Rangers and a pretty hot Reds club. This could get real interesting. The CWS made the firings after 21 game streak. It shouldn't take that long for Nutting or BC as this was supposed to be a "contending" year unlike the Sox.
Shelton received an extension that the details were never disclosed (as far as I know), so doubt that Bob will eat that contract, not saying is impossible….
If he wants to show he cares, eating Shelton's contract would be such small potatoes compared to agreeing to extensions for Reynolds, Hayes, and Keller, only one of which is looking particularly good. Speaking of which, the money he committed to those extensions might be the best motivator to moving on from this administration.
Hurdle generated negative, off-field headlines. Nuttin could care less about losing, in fact, I think he prefers it because he figures it keeps the fans' expectations low. It's amazing how ready Pirate fans are to excuse the failure to upgrade by saying, "They can't afford this or that," despite the fact that similar franchises are spending much more. But Nuttin does seem to care about off-field stuff.
Enough is enough. The city should condemn the damn team. Nutting has little interest in winning and it can be argued that the city of Pittsburgh suffers because of the laughable excuse of a team meant to represent the city. Could it be any worse? If Nutting doesn't want to win take the team away.
Nutting is not going to do anything. Right now the franchise has to dump Shelton and install Bench Coach Don Kelly as the Interim Manager - a no-nonsense, well respected baseball guy who played MLB under Leyland in Detroit. Give him the shot to finish the season and go from there.
I'm not much of a Kelly supporter. I feel he's been more than complicit in his role as bench coach. He runs Spring Training camp, he checks with replay review, but does he do any coaching, or have leadership skills? Maybe not fair, but he seems much too mild-mannered to be a manager. Probably why Derek hired guys like Kelly and Brock and Haines. Yes men thru and thru.
Kelly was one of the best Managerial Prospects when he took the Bench Coach job in Pittsburgh. He was born around Pittsburgh and played HS and college in Pittsburgh. His wife is the sister of Neil Walker and they want to remain in the "burgh". He was hired for a job and he has done that job, even if it chokes him to be the yes man and support for Shelton - does not mean he agrees with what has happened, but until he gets the chance, who knows? Right now, I want to see change and he is the guy that I think BC could agree to keep as the Manager.
Yes, some teams would view the next six weeks as a good opportunity to assess an interim elevated from bench coach. That might not be a fair opportunity for Kelly, but then again it might be the only one he gets.
Yeah I agree. What is Kelly going to do to make things better? Unless he can make everyone except Reynolds, Bart and Skenes better players I don't see the point. This whole mess goes much, much deeper.
A difference, I think so, how many games have we lost by running Holderman and Bednar out there when their struggles were obvious to everyone, why keep Cruz at SS, why have a player who had a triple and a single bunt late in the game, these are a few examples of the things that he has control of and fails to address, just sit there every night and blames everyone for not executing when he fails to execute on a weekly basis.
I would rather they try something and fail than continue to do nothing. Losing 10 in a row is ridiculous, and I consider that the current Manager is nothing more than a lame duck at this point. Can't hurt to get a former ballplayer in there as the Manager who will not be as easy going as "what's his name"?
I agree that the bigger issue is the lack of talent--just looking at the WAR values show that we don't have enough good players despite five years of the "build".
However, Shelton can't fire Cherington and if they do replace Cherington (I don't expect that), a new GM would likely want to start with a new manager. So why not see if a new manager might inspire the current roster to go something like 25-17 and inspire some confidence for next year?
OTOH, having a strong finish might not be a good thing because it could distract focus on the bigger problems. Maybe it was last season's good finish that led to them thinking they were closer to being a good team than they actually were.
Dejan has had it right when he's ranted about fans needing to forget the details. Forget who should have pinch hit, what hit didn't fall when they needed, which pitcher didn't have it today. Forget the trees and look at the forest. They're failing and they're happy with failure. There is no other relevant issue.
The Athletic article was at least interesting because we learned Bob demanded the money for upgrades to facilities came from the baseball ops/payroll budget 1) and 2) we learned that Cherington is on a quest to prove himself clever via goofball "alternative training methods" and movement philosophies rather sticking to actual baseball minds as hires who can move the needle. I'm sure Dutchboy Bart was cheap because he's completely unqualified to do anything for an MLB team, though. I agree with everything else you say above though. We know they don't care and the goofball stuff they do in between those lines is just fodder to make fun of at this point.
Disagree.....it would begin to address culture problems, accountability of players, coaches, work ethic, and importantly game strategy issues. Shelton has been a "let's have fun" type of manager.
BC has an opportunity to end that now......although it's more likely in the off season.
While I think that he has moved on from his "my job is to keep things fun" days, I think that he established a culture (as you suggest) that lingers and is keeping him from making players feel accountable beyond having fun. Even new players demonstrate that--for example, somehow Tellez thinks it's okay to jog as long as he's keeping things light in the clubhouse. It is a culture thing.
Shelton would almost surely be much better if he gets a second chance to manage, but I also can't see anyone hiring him after his record with us.
Definitely would be a start though the problems in this org are so extensive that the "real" problem is so much higher up the totem pole. Given how unlikely it is that any of those problems are fixed, cleaning out the manager and hopefully the major league hitting staff are at least a step in the right direction. Can't let any new hires touch Marin or any of the pitching staff though
Dejan and Tim at P2 with outstanding jeremiads against where the Pirates are as an organization. Will Nutting listen?
Doubtful
Cook has some wheels. Beat out a usual double play ball, stole second then scored on a single.
Yorke now hitting .392 since the trade. Too bad the Pirates don't have somebody with, say, a .549 OPS he could step in for. Or .569. Or .507. Or .408. Just to take a few random numbers. Oh . . . wait . . . those are actual Cherington Pirates.
Yelich done. Wonder whether the Brooz might want BDLC.
Probably not.
I feel bad for Yellich even though he is a Brewer. Had he remained healthy, he had a chance at making the HOF.
Maybe if we throw in Taylor.
Tank alert: A's win. Now 52-70.
If the season w6ere to end now, the Pirates would pick sixth.
I don't expect we'll pass the White Sox. But then there is lottery luck.
White Sox pick 10, A's pick 11 poor bass terds don't get to play the lottery this year.
Seriously? The White Sox can’t pick higher than 10th? Wow. That is insane.
Yep
I thought every team that doesn't make the playoffs gets a lottery ticket!
A team can only have 2 top 6 picks in consecutive years, disqualified the A's. Teams that pay into the revenue sharing can only receive a top 6 pick one year, following years pick can be pick 10 at best, White Sox. Happened to the Nats for the 2024 draft.
Apparently Manfred and his baseball-hating minions are considering a rule to require starting pitchers to stay in for six innings. I don’t even know what to say.
It's like every institution that exists now. Just engineered to make people stuck with it unhappy. The fucking lawyers and activists. Just ruining the world before our eyes.
What if a pitchers is being shelled in the first?
Um. That is truly insane.
Will Taylor just hit a granny.
Hope she’s ok. : )
👏
Our hitting coaches probably haven’t had time to alter anything yet! Good for him
He’s still in a pre-Hainesian state.
I saw he just struck out in the 5th. Haines & company must have had a FaceTime video conference with him in the 4th inning and explained Grand Slams are “NOT” the Pirate way
All is well in Pirateland again
“Pirates signed RHP Beau Sulser to a minor league contract”
Thought the Rays just picked him back up…
Anybody remember Evan Chambers, Pirate prospect who died at 24? His little nephew was here throwing out the first pitch.
Chambers was a great guy, never saw him without a smile. I talked to him for a long time one day for an interview. Terrific answers. Easy to root for as he had to battle through injuries most of his pro career. He was really close with a lot of the players too. I know a few of them took it really hard and still talked highly about him years after he passed
As the Greeks living around Plato's time noted, "A person will be happy only when he or she is dead." The reason for this? Your friends would remember and speak well of the dead person.
Can the young one pitch in Pittsburgh?
Looked about 10-12. Could probably hit cleanup now.
I do recall Chambers. Was it a heart issue?
I think so, died in his sleep I think.
vaxxed
too soon and too real
=O
Maybe this has already been discussed and I missed it. How does Billy Cook get rated 24th ( MLB pipeline) in what appears to be a pretty bad system behind guys like Shalin Polanco and Lonnie White? Maybe I’m overvaluing him but he seems to be exactly the type of player that should be getting a look. Good defense, big arm, hits for average and some power. What are the Pirates waiting for?
Pipeline and BA are very slow to move on from failed prospects like Polanco, who's clearly toast. They've got too few people covering too much territory. BA was better when they had team correspondents doing their top 30s, although the quality could be variable.
Tony Solometo will be selling insurance and they'll still have him Top10.
He can put in a good word for Brennan Malone.
At this point I feel like Barco is the far better prospect despite being ranked lower. I hope Solometo can get things figured out but the Velo drop is concerning with that delivery
IMO, Barco has always been the best LHP prospect in the Pirates system.
I think they dropped Brad Corley, like, a year ago.
Does Tim not contribute to BA’s list anymore? You are absolutely right, their coverage seems watered down without having a regular coverage guy.
No, it’s been in house for years.
I don't think he ever contributed to their rankings. I'm pretty sure that was only them
Maybe time to throw in your application
Haha
MLB Pipeline isn't great coverage imo. Mayo loooooooves young prospects and young prospects only. No room for late bloomers.
Fans have been chanting Fire Shelton for months now: https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1cpryn2/a_fire_shelton_chant_breaks_out_in_pittsburgh/
https://dkpittsburghsports.com/2024/08/14/pirates-fire-derek-shelton-ben-cherington-bob-nutting-column-opinion-mlb-dk DK calling for them both to go.
Mark Madden on the FireShelton train: https://triblive.com/sports/mark-madden-replacing-derek-shelton-is-a-good-idea-but-wouldnt-solve-pirates-problems/
https://www.beefshirts.com/products/fire-shelton-pittsburgh-pirates-fan-t-shirt-box-design-beef-shirts t-shirts exist
https://www.change.org/p/fire-derek-shelton petitions too!
Feels like it's time to do *something*.
The Nuttings are not known for taking orders fr.om their die hard fans. Most big-money people could care at all for popular opinion. Tywin Lannister clearly expressed their attitude: "The lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep."
Bob is no lion lol. He's more like a chimp who's dad gave him a good banana tree.
You are very good at copy/paste...and editing.
Every yinzer out there wants to fire everyone.
You also appear to be the type that would sign petitions to have Nutting sale the team, fire Shelton and fire BC. Hell, if they had rallies, you would attend those.
Do you remember NuttingHostage?
I remember the yocal who tried getting into the game with the
*SPEND NUTTING, WIN NUTTING T-SHIRT*
i remember the irate fans who lost their P
That had quite an impact. /s
Briefly, we were discussing efforts with state senators. That said, common folk won't march to protest climate change inaction, that is, an existential threat. So, it's unsurprising that they won't protest the Nuttings. The loud ones find messages boards on which to vent. The latter is a bit like punching a wall when angry.
Read Roger Pielke (The Honest Broker on Substack). He and his dad before him are longtime experts on climate change. Most climate catastrophism is just bad models and greenwashing capitalism to help Steve Job's widow and Bill Gates make money off the Federal govt forcing you to ditch your natgas stove. Any climate protest that doesn't begin with forcing the Davos set to give up their private planes is an absolute joke and a non-starter.
I'm the dummy and hate to post to this thread which is becoming a dumpster fire elsewhere, but clue me in some. Was NuttingHostage effort successful or not. I truly don't know so I am not being a wise donkey. I tend to think owners (not just in Pgh) don't really pay attention to that stuff.. but am more than willing to change my mind if it has successfully occurred.
No impact.
NuttingHostage himself was an online troll who totally obsessed over Nutting. Don't think he had anything to do with the Irate Fans thing. I should say the late NuttingHostage. It was kinda sad. I heard from somebody who knew him, or knew somebody who knew him, who said he spent his last years raging against Nutting and harassing all the nat'l baseball writers (Law and the like), demanding that they "expose the fraud." I despise Nutting and all, but jeez, I have butterfly plants to take care of.
Probably not as impactful as that one kid with the Sell the Team shirt but close!
/s = sarcasm
Don't start having another breakdown and focusing on me again C22. It always ends badly for you and you disappear for 3-4 days afterwards. You've already notched the r slur and the f slur in your two last breakdowns. What is even left?
Moar editing lol
There's plenty left.
However, as many times as you say it, doesn't make it true.
Are you unable to edit? Do you have so few thoughts that you have no need to? I know you edited that homophobic f slur out of that post here a few weeks back and so do the site admins because they see all the edits :) Careful, Tim Williams might come on here and suggest you get more in touch with his pheminine side.
I bet you bought one of those t-shirts
I do not wear t-shirts with writing on them. I'm not a human bumper sticker moron. Do you?
It's hard to even discuss what could be done to improve the team this offseason with Cherington and Shelton still here. Feels like they've got to both go before fans just completely check out even heading into March and April next year. For example, I almost felt compelled to try and make a case for why the Pirates should try and trade for Nolan Gorman to platoon with Hayes next year but it's just like "meh, who cares about this team"
It aint about the X's and O's
It's about the Jimmy's and the Joe's
Changing bench manager probably won't do much at all.
Need better players.
And sadly, next year's opening day payroll will probably be in the $86 - $88 million range, and I think Keller, IKF and Reynolds will add about $18 million (or something close to that) over what they are getting this year.
And I know IKF is making $7.5 this year, but the Bucs are paying a pittance of that. Next year it's full freight.
It'd be fun to swap Shelton for Wehner because Wehner would actually get pissed about losing. Shelton has been a loser his entire life and is totally at home with losing.
I get it.
But you don't get in a position of being an MLB coach and climbing the ranks to being an MLB Bench Manager by being a loser.
The losers are us guys talking about it on the internet.
😂
You’re correct to a point.
The whole idea that there aren’t total incompetents running teams because it’s a billion dollar team ignores reality. The Rockies had their analytics team doing laundry and AGM’s acting as clubhouse attendants for the opposing team. The Angels set up a weight room in a tent in their parking lot of their spring training complex. The current Pirates management team didn’t understand the rules of the minor league portion of the rule 5 and tried to take guys who weren’t available. Jack Zdurencik allegedly had an assistant put together a resume package for the Mariners claiming to be some analytics whiz when he knew nothing about the subject.
For the record, I’m not saying Cherington and Shelton are idiots or anything. I’m just inclined to think they have bad ideas. I get that constantly harping on every little thing can be counter-productive, but so is deifying them. Many of these guys get ahead the same as people in any other organization: on shady politics, selling themselves to clueless to management, Peter Principle etc.
Yeah, if someone is going to make that argument, then it would apply to managers like Lamont and Russell and GMs like Littlefield (and I'm just thinking of infamous Pirate figures--there are even better (worse) examples from other organizations).
I wouldn't refer to such people as losers but I also don't think they were good at their jobs, perhaps because they were promoted beyond their abilities. I've seen that happen with my organization--someone who may be very competent at one job gets promoted into a job they're not a good fit for and that creates problems, sometimes bordering on disastrous.
That was Littlefield's biggest problem, the area he was truly good at became backburner because the areas he was not competent became his main areas of focus. It had a ripple affect through the organization. Yes he was a terrible GM, he was even a worse hire because he was put in a position he wasn't ready or qualified for. I have way more respect for him than Cherington do to the simple fact that he didn't try to talk above or around those asking questions and he didn't push the finishing line to a mythical place down the road.
that's a really cool story, man.
So cool you aren’t even disagreeing with it.
I mean, come on. The amount of bullshit you typed is on a different level.
He's a career .400 winning percentage manager. When he gets fired in Pittsburgh, he'll never coach another MLB team as manager again. I do agree that following a team this pathetic does make us losers. That's why I plan to walk away this March if/when Cherington/Shelton are still here. It's a choice we can all make if we want to.
this comment single handedly turned online bucco fans pro-cherington
In other words, the only thing holding back Cherington is Shelton.
Imagine if he had a manager that gave a shit!
that is what i believe
I didn't say that. They're both dunces.
That's fine if they like losing. They can have it! I'll drop by 2-3 times a year to make fun yinz.
Bingo!
Good for Wehner (from Joe Starkey's column):
Plenty would agree with broadcaster John Wehner, who told The Fan earlier this week, “The thing I look at and get more frustrated with than anything — is the effort there consistently? Is it there 100% of the time? At times, it’s not.”
Good for Wehner speaking up, but this should have been clear to BC long ago, but especially this year. Too many players take plays off......head-lined by Cruz, Grandal, Tellez and even Cutch.
Why would the players put out any effort when the GM and manager don't? They've both made it clear that performance is irrelevant. You can bat .150, look at third strikes down the middle with the bases loaded all day every day, and your job is still safe. There are zero performance standards on the Pirates and the players have to realize it.
thing about Wehner is that he has a direct ear to nutting
How so? As an employee?
all those anouncers (except for walk) double as mc´s for every event the pirates do
OK so not a direct ear to Nutting.......only is an employee. Unless they communicate behind the scenes which I would guess is unlikely.
point is there is no filter through BC like shelton would have a filter through BC
Wehner should manage the club.
I’d be cool with this. Listening to the games, he has a hell of a baseball mind.
im ready for it
he´s interviewed three times
It’d handcuff Cherington in maybe a good way. I doubt Wehner would put up with Dutchboy Bart and his Movement bullshit.
The next 10 are against Mariners, Rangers and a pretty hot Reds club. This could get real interesting. The CWS made the firings after 21 game streak. It shouldn't take that long for Nutting or BC as this was supposed to be a "contending" year unlike the Sox.
Shelton received an extension that the details were never disclosed (as far as I know), so doubt that Bob will eat that contract, not saying is impossible….
If he wants to show he cares, eating Shelton's contract would be such small potatoes compared to agreeing to extensions for Reynolds, Hayes, and Keller, only one of which is looking particularly good. Speaking of which, the money he committed to those extensions might be the best motivator to moving on from this administration.
he ate hurdles
Hurdle generated negative, off-field headlines. Nuttin could care less about losing, in fact, I think he prefers it because he figures it keeps the fans' expectations low. It's amazing how ready Pirate fans are to excuse the failure to upgrade by saying, "They can't afford this or that," despite the fact that similar franchises are spending much more. But Nuttin does seem to care about off-field stuff.
The only thing that made Nutting mad over the losing streak was the drainage issue.
Enough is enough. The city should condemn the damn team. Nutting has little interest in winning and it can be argued that the city of Pittsburgh suffers because of the laughable excuse of a team meant to represent the city. Could it be any worse? If Nutting doesn't want to win take the team away.
Anyone know how long the extension Shelton got last year is for?
That will determine whether or not he gets fired. If he still has two years left, BN won't eat that.
I wrote the same above without reading this post….😳
Nutting is not going to do anything. Right now the franchise has to dump Shelton and install Bench Coach Don Kelly as the Interim Manager - a no-nonsense, well respected baseball guy who played MLB under Leyland in Detroit. Give him the shot to finish the season and go from there.
I'm not much of a Kelly supporter. I feel he's been more than complicit in his role as bench coach. He runs Spring Training camp, he checks with replay review, but does he do any coaching, or have leadership skills? Maybe not fair, but he seems much too mild-mannered to be a manager. Probably why Derek hired guys like Kelly and Brock and Haines. Yes men thru and thru.
Kelly was one of the best Managerial Prospects when he took the Bench Coach job in Pittsburgh. He was born around Pittsburgh and played HS and college in Pittsburgh. His wife is the sister of Neil Walker and they want to remain in the "burgh". He was hired for a job and he has done that job, even if it chokes him to be the yes man and support for Shelton - does not mean he agrees with what has happened, but until he gets the chance, who knows? Right now, I want to see change and he is the guy that I think BC could agree to keep as the Manager.
Naw I'm out on Kelly too. Too right-hand-man-y
Yes, some teams would view the next six weeks as a good opportunity to assess an interim elevated from bench coach. That might not be a fair opportunity for Kelly, but then again it might be the only one he gets.
The notion that Kelly might make an iota of difference with this team is . . . fanciful.
Yeah I agree. What is Kelly going to do to make things better? Unless he can make everyone except Reynolds, Bart and Skenes better players I don't see the point. This whole mess goes much, much deeper.
A difference, I think so, how many games have we lost by running Holderman and Bednar out there when their struggles were obvious to everyone, why keep Cruz at SS, why have a player who had a triple and a single bunt late in the game, these are a few examples of the things that he has control of and fails to address, just sit there every night and blames everyone for not executing when he fails to execute on a weekly basis.
I would rather they try something and fail than continue to do nothing. Losing 10 in a row is ridiculous, and I consider that the current Manager is nothing more than a lame duck at this point. Can't hurt to get a former ballplayer in there as the Manager who will not be as easy going as "what's his name"?
I agree that the bigger issue is the lack of talent--just looking at the WAR values show that we don't have enough good players despite five years of the "build".
However, Shelton can't fire Cherington and if they do replace Cherington (I don't expect that), a new GM would likely want to start with a new manager. So why not see if a new manager might inspire the current roster to go something like 25-17 and inspire some confidence for next year?
OTOH, having a strong finish might not be a good thing because it could distract focus on the bigger problems. Maybe it was last season's good finish that led to them thinking they were closer to being a good team than they actually were.
About time for another Athletic article highlighting how the Pirates front office, staff and ownership don't care about winning.
How many ways can you say the same thing?
Dejan has had it right when he's ranted about fans needing to forget the details. Forget who should have pinch hit, what hit didn't fall when they needed, which pitcher didn't have it today. Forget the trees and look at the forest. They're failing and they're happy with failure. There is no other relevant issue.
I still think it's fun to talk about baseball, tho, isn't that the point?
The Athletic article was at least interesting because we learned Bob demanded the money for upgrades to facilities came from the baseball ops/payroll budget 1) and 2) we learned that Cherington is on a quest to prove himself clever via goofball "alternative training methods" and movement philosophies rather sticking to actual baseball minds as hires who can move the needle. I'm sure Dutchboy Bart was cheap because he's completely unqualified to do anything for an MLB team, though. I agree with everything else you say above though. We know they don't care and the goofball stuff they do in between those lines is just fodder to make fun of at this point.
While I agree with you that Shelton needs to go, that's not going to solve the real problem.
Disagree.....it would begin to address culture problems, accountability of players, coaches, work ethic, and importantly game strategy issues. Shelton has been a "let's have fun" type of manager.
BC has an opportunity to end that now......although it's more likely in the off season.
While I think that he has moved on from his "my job is to keep things fun" days, I think that he established a culture (as you suggest) that lingers and is keeping him from making players feel accountable beyond having fun. Even new players demonstrate that--for example, somehow Tellez thinks it's okay to jog as long as he's keeping things light in the clubhouse. It is a culture thing.
Shelton would almost surely be much better if he gets a second chance to manage, but I also can't see anyone hiring him after his record with us.
Definitely would be a start though the problems in this org are so extensive that the "real" problem is so much higher up the totem pole. Given how unlikely it is that any of those problems are fixed, cleaning out the manager and hopefully the major league hitting staff are at least a step in the right direction. Can't let any new hires touch Marin or any of the pitching staff though