This was on MLB.com for a FA for each team. Kind of sad they already assume that the Pirates will be sellers come trade deadline. Or not?
Pittsburgh Pirates: Frankie Montas, RHP
The Pirates will be looking for some veteran rotation depth, so why not roll the dice with a one-year deal for Montas? The right-hander threw 1 1/3 innings in 2023 after missing most of the season following shoulder surgery and will likely have to take a one-year deal, but if he pitches well, he could be a nice trade chip come July.
One of my college friends looked exactly like Jake Peavy. He also heckled Bubba Trammell one time out in left field. "Hey Bubba, tell your wife to stop calling me". That's my Peavy story if you were wondering.
I am becoming interested because of the chatter here in the concept of whether or not, or to what extent, the Pirates dip into the free agent pitching market.
We've all been there calling Nutting "cheap," but Scrooge McDuck would call him "frugal."
The SP market is gonna be saucy this off season and I really like some of the articles I'm reading here and on P2 about these internal pitching metrics. I've been wondering for several years now whether or not the chase for elite pitching is a fool's errand and that you only get lucky in that regard before you are priced out of the market and your budget is destroyed like Godzilla stomping through a helpless Tokyo.
The Pirates, as I've been reading for some time now, have pitchers, loads of pitchers, with one or two good weapons but not that third pitch to get through a lineup more than once. But, hey! That's two or three innings.
So the question arises: Are three Ryan Broukis equal to or greater than one Gerrit Cole?
And when you do the payroll, does it wind up that you've got cash left over to use on the team in a pinch?
Not endorsing an owner who won't spend. Just wondering if the going paradigm isn't flawed.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like a losing team should be losing so many players, some being claimed by winning teams. It reminds me a bit of the aftermath of the 2003 Rule 5 Draft, including this quote:
"I heard the laughs coming from back there," Pirates farm director Brian Graham said. "Realistically, it's a compliment. You don't want to lose players, and it's not a positive for us. But it is a compliment."
There some strategy too; claim a guy that makes your 40-man stronger with the option to DFA him later and stash him in AAA as depth. My guess is that many of these guys will be DFA’ed this off-season.
I see it as sort of a continuation of the quantity v quality discussions regarding our prospects during GMBCs tenure. This is what a system with a bunch of 40-45s produces - a bunch of guys that can fill out spots 35-40, but barely any impact regulars.
He was an all-star in 2017 and 2018, but 2018 was the last year he was able to pitch at least 20 games. Not to mention how awful he was last year in his 19 starts with a 6.65 ERA. I like your idea of the incentive based contract, just not a guy I would like to count on. I guess I can probably say the same thing about 15 other guys out there. Sean Manaea is one of them.
Celestino was a very good signing. A different type player who is a LH Glove/RH Bat, and he hits RHP's better than he does LHP's. His MLB experience in 2022 was positive defensively and his BA and OBP numbers against RHP's were decent. The wRC+ of 82 reflects his lack of HR power. I doubt he starts the year at the MLB level.
Pitching, Pitching, Pitching - the Pirates are loaded with possible Rotation SP's, and the Bullpen is set from Day One of ST. Bido and YDLS did not figure into that equation and I am glad to see they have found homes.
Be nice to hear updates on guys coming back from long term injuries such as Brubaker, Burrows, and Kranick, who was just barely able to get a few rehab games before the season ended. Also add in Luis Ortiz and a guy like Roansy Contreras whose year never really started in 2023. I find it hard to believe that a MLB team would not know every time these guys throw, even during the off-season. Way too much invested in these guys to NOT KNOW!
The FO definitely knows, but we have a GM that likes to play it very close to the vest and a small-market media that rarely presses him to share more (he couldn't get away with his numerous non-statements in NY, Philly, Chicago, LA, or even Boston where he had a surprisingly short tenure given that he was there when they won a WS). Is there a fanbase that gets less information from their organization? Maybe that's why we seem to have long had a healthy network of blogs.
It's hard to be patient in these long offseasons. Lots of turnover away from the Pirates but nothing of note to the Pirates. Also, every notable name thrown around by folks, even the lesser ones, seem to have suitors with big pockets. The longer things go, the more wary I am of nothing happening and that would be disastrous for the 2024 team.
Good points, but I think the Pirates have moved beyond where they have to act to be competitive. In fact, just standing pat and playing the talent this club has accumulated is what I see as their best option for 2024 unless something special just falls into their laps.
They still have a few talented position players/pitchers who have talent, but are not guaranteed starting positions on the Pirates. We are at that point where we have to make trades of people who will become MLB players elsewhere. Is now the right time or is during the season/trade deadline the right time? I prefer the latter.
On the contrary, standing pat will be the worst move they can make. If you think this team, as constructed, will just organically improve them 10 games or so in the standings all I have to say is...pass along what you’re smoking.
I agree, Wags. I would also ask what young players some are optimistic about? While I’m hopeful some like Davis and Nick G can be above average MLB players, I’m really only sold on Endy, and that is by the eye test only. Hopeful is not the same as optimistic. The SPs are a mess. Hayes, Reynolds, Bednar, and Keller are good players, but that’s not nearly enough to put fear into opponents or contend for a playoff spot.
Mel, they need to acquire through trade or FA at least 3 SP’s before ST. If BC’s Plan A includes Ortiz, Contreras, and Priester be given starting roles without having to earn them, then Pirates are in real trouble.
I certainly hope all 3 of those guys make me eat crow, and pitch great next year. But it would be a GM failure to not bring in competition for all three of them in ST.
If you are suggesting they trade to get 3 SP's before ST, who do you suggest we trade from our current group of players? And the Pirates <$10 mil ceiling for getting FA Pitchers? I doubt we can get better than what we already have.
Keller, Priester, Jones, and then take your pick of Kranick, Contreras, Ortiz, Jackson, Nicolas, Wolfe. The first 3 are keepers, and the next 6 we can either try to use or just get rid of them now. I tend to think we want to use them because they could be worth a lot more later if they do well. AND, when will BRU be available; when will Burrows be available. We have to keep the doors open for those two guys.
I personally want them to sign a FA SP on a multi-year deal who is a proven commodity, like Eduardo Rodriguez for example. Then sign a bounce back candidate on a 1-year deal, like Luis Severino for example. The 3rd guy will be more of a Velasquez type, who can either be signed or acquired via trade without giving up anyone from the top 10 prospects.
Point is Pirates have both the money and prospect capital to spend and the need for good starting pitching.
Scott Kliesen: The guy I'm really interested in is Contreras. I would like to think they've spent a season giving him a weapon to use in the zone to pair with the excellent slider. If Roansy can figure this out, I think he's a good option.
I like the Pirates' young talent too, but when I think of how we ended the season with two SP and a bunch of bullpen games and then that one of those SP is likely to miss at least a big chunk of the season, I think we need to bring in at least a couple of SP. I'd also like a proven bat for 1B or RF (if they're serious about Davis getting games at C) and someone who can fill in when Bednar or Holderman isn't available.
Yes, we did well in those games. But I don't see how it would be sustainable over a full season because we'd likely have pitchers going well beyond their previous innings pitched, at least in the high-stress major league environment. We could shuttle relievers back and forth between AAA and MLB, but that requires a lot of effective relievers with options left which doesn't seem realistic.
If MLB expanded rosters to 28 or 30 for the entire season instead of just September, then we could implement such a strategy, at least as a plan b.
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I see your point of the roster size being the limiting factor. They sure did throw a lot of guys at the problem this season though.
Maybe they get to three bonafide starters and do a bullpen game every third day.
I think one of the things that speaks for bullpen games is that it would be really hard for opponents to prepare for the next guy out of the pen all the time. Having a Mitch Keller is a predictable thing whereas having some guy named Hatch is much less predictable, especially if you don't know if he's gonna be entering the game or not.
That, in theory, would leave 15 innings over 5 games for the short relievers (Bednar, Holderman, Mlod, Selby, Moreta) to cover which seems doable. But that counts on a lot of unproven players coming through and I'd feel much better if we brought in two quality SPs because I don't have a lot of confidence in Priester, Contreras, or Falter.
This was on MLB.com for a FA for each team. Kind of sad they already assume that the Pirates will be sellers come trade deadline. Or not?
Pittsburgh Pirates: Frankie Montas, RHP
The Pirates will be looking for some veteran rotation depth, so why not roll the dice with a one-year deal for Montas? The right-hander threw 1 1/3 innings in 2023 after missing most of the season following shoulder surgery and will likely have to take a one-year deal, but if he pitches well, he could be a nice trade chip come July.
BC once traded Montas for Jake Peavy
so we should sign peavy?
One of my college friends looked exactly like Jake Peavy. He also heckled Bubba Trammell one time out in left field. "Hey Bubba, tell your wife to stop calling me". That's my Peavy story if you were wondering.
Love it!
Anybody here want Jason Heyward to be our starting centerfielder?
Move Suwinski to center, drop Bae and end this Cutch in the outfield nonsense
he´ll cost more than $5?
So Matt Canada can be fired, but Andy Haines has life tenure.
I’ll have a more in depth breakdown of Celestino today.
Also send in more questions for the mailbag episode
for less than a million bucs, the A´s sign Bido who in 2023 throws 143 innings for Aguilas, Indy & Pittsburgh with a 5.86
for ten million bucs, the Cards sign Lynn who in 2023 throws 183.2 innings for Chicago & LA with a 5.73
Who are your sources saying is our top target?
without a doubt it is Manoah
https://theathletic.com/3318179/2022/05/18/toronto-blue-jays-alek-manoah-mlb-draft/
history will repeat itself
https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/11/4/5066986/francisco-liriano-nl-comeback-player-of-the-year-winner-pirates
Subscribe! Manoah sevy and erod would be such a boost
cant see any free agents coming
trades are the only way we have a shot to obtain anyone decent
I am becoming interested because of the chatter here in the concept of whether or not, or to what extent, the Pirates dip into the free agent pitching market.
We've all been there calling Nutting "cheap," but Scrooge McDuck would call him "frugal."
The SP market is gonna be saucy this off season and I really like some of the articles I'm reading here and on P2 about these internal pitching metrics. I've been wondering for several years now whether or not the chase for elite pitching is a fool's errand and that you only get lucky in that regard before you are priced out of the market and your budget is destroyed like Godzilla stomping through a helpless Tokyo.
The Pirates, as I've been reading for some time now, have pitchers, loads of pitchers, with one or two good weapons but not that third pitch to get through a lineup more than once. But, hey! That's two or three innings.
So the question arises: Are three Ryan Broukis equal to or greater than one Gerrit Cole?
And when you do the payroll, does it wind up that you've got cash left over to use on the team in a pinch?
Not endorsing an owner who won't spend. Just wondering if the going paradigm isn't flawed.
"Ickity- Ackity- Ooph!"
-Wabbit
We just cleared like 7 guys off our 40 man and ALL of them were claimed. I think that's a good sign.
Welcome to Bucs on Deck! Where most of our team’s players suck, but we’re always sorry to see them go.
or is it a bad sign? Can’t evaluate our own talent or do we have an abundance of “40th man” guys on our roster?
It’s def the latter.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like a losing team should be losing so many players, some being claimed by winning teams. It reminds me a bit of the aftermath of the 2003 Rule 5 Draft, including this quote:
"I heard the laughs coming from back there," Pirates farm director Brian Graham said. "Realistically, it's a compliment. You don't want to lose players, and it's not a positive for us. But it is a compliment."
There some strategy too; claim a guy that makes your 40-man stronger with the option to DFA him later and stash him in AAA as depth. My guess is that many of these guys will be DFA’ed this off-season.
I see it as sort of a continuation of the quantity v quality discussions regarding our prospects during GMBCs tenure. This is what a system with a bunch of 40-45s produces - a bunch of guys that can fill out spots 35-40, but barely any impact regulars.
Perdomo already claimed and dropped i believe
Severino is supposedly at Driveline, lets make him a strong offer with options and performance/health incentives asap
He was an all-star in 2017 and 2018, but 2018 was the last year he was able to pitch at least 20 games. Not to mention how awful he was last year in his 19 starts with a 6.65 ERA. I like your idea of the incentive based contract, just not a guy I would like to count on. I guess I can probably say the same thing about 15 other guys out there. Sean Manaea is one of them.
Celestino was a very good signing. A different type player who is a LH Glove/RH Bat, and he hits RHP's better than he does LHP's. His MLB experience in 2022 was positive defensively and his BA and OBP numbers against RHP's were decent. The wRC+ of 82 reflects his lack of HR power. I doubt he starts the year at the MLB level.
Pitching, Pitching, Pitching - the Pirates are loaded with possible Rotation SP's, and the Bullpen is set from Day One of ST. Bido and YDLS did not figure into that equation and I am glad to see they have found homes.
Be nice to hear updates on guys coming back from long term injuries such as Brubaker, Burrows, and Kranick, who was just barely able to get a few rehab games before the season ended. Also add in Luis Ortiz and a guy like Roansy Contreras whose year never really started in 2023. I find it hard to believe that a MLB team would not know every time these guys throw, even during the off-season. Way too much invested in these guys to NOT KNOW!
The FO definitely knows, but we have a GM that likes to play it very close to the vest and a small-market media that rarely presses him to share more (he couldn't get away with his numerous non-statements in NY, Philly, Chicago, LA, or even Boston where he had a surprisingly short tenure given that he was there when they won a WS). Is there a fanbase that gets less information from their organization? Maybe that's why we seem to have long had a healthy network of blogs.
It's hard to be patient in these long offseasons. Lots of turnover away from the Pirates but nothing of note to the Pirates. Also, every notable name thrown around by folks, even the lesser ones, seem to have suitors with big pockets. The longer things go, the more wary I am of nothing happening and that would be disastrous for the 2024 team.
Good points, but I think the Pirates have moved beyond where they have to act to be competitive. In fact, just standing pat and playing the talent this club has accumulated is what I see as their best option for 2024 unless something special just falls into their laps.
They still have a few talented position players/pitchers who have talent, but are not guaranteed starting positions on the Pirates. We are at that point where we have to make trades of people who will become MLB players elsewhere. Is now the right time or is during the season/trade deadline the right time? I prefer the latter.
On the contrary, standing pat will be the worst move they can make. If you think this team, as constructed, will just organically improve them 10 games or so in the standings all I have to say is...pass along what you’re smoking.
I agree, Wags. I would also ask what young players some are optimistic about? While I’m hopeful some like Davis and Nick G can be above average MLB players, I’m really only sold on Endy, and that is by the eye test only. Hopeful is not the same as optimistic. The SPs are a mess. Hayes, Reynolds, Bednar, and Keller are good players, but that’s not nearly enough to put fear into opponents or contend for a playoff spot.
Mel, they need to acquire through trade or FA at least 3 SP’s before ST. If BC’s Plan A includes Ortiz, Contreras, and Priester be given starting roles without having to earn them, then Pirates are in real trouble.
I certainly hope all 3 of those guys make me eat crow, and pitch great next year. But it would be a GM failure to not bring in competition for all three of them in ST.
If you are suggesting they trade to get 3 SP's before ST, who do you suggest we trade from our current group of players? And the Pirates <$10 mil ceiling for getting FA Pitchers? I doubt we can get better than what we already have.
Keller, Priester, Jones, and then take your pick of Kranick, Contreras, Ortiz, Jackson, Nicolas, Wolfe. The first 3 are keepers, and the next 6 we can either try to use or just get rid of them now. I tend to think we want to use them because they could be worth a lot more later if they do well. AND, when will BRU be available; when will Burrows be available. We have to keep the doors open for those two guys.
I said acquire via trade or FA.
I personally want them to sign a FA SP on a multi-year deal who is a proven commodity, like Eduardo Rodriguez for example. Then sign a bounce back candidate on a 1-year deal, like Luis Severino for example. The 3rd guy will be more of a Velasquez type, who can either be signed or acquired via trade without giving up anyone from the top 10 prospects.
Point is Pirates have both the money and prospect capital to spend and the need for good starting pitching.
I count us at around $55 to $60 mil for the Active Payroll with the names we already know. 3 SP's
That did not work
Scott Kliesen: The guy I'm really interested in is Contreras. I would like to think they've spent a season giving him a weapon to use in the zone to pair with the excellent slider. If Roansy can figure this out, I think he's a good option.
I hate to bring this up but free agent SPs get injured too. Yes, I think we should sign at least 1 plus starter but what we really need is health.
Can’t live your life in fear. Doing nothing out of fear of failure is a sure way to fail.
I like the Pirates' young talent too, but when I think of how we ended the season with two SP and a bunch of bullpen games and then that one of those SP is likely to miss at least a big chunk of the season, I think we need to bring in at least a couple of SP. I'd also like a proven bat for 1B or RF (if they're serious about Davis getting games at C) and someone who can fill in when Bednar or Holderman isn't available.
Even so, TNBucs, I believe the Bucs had a winning record in bullpen games this past season. Something to think about.
Bullpen games should never be Plan A to start the season. Organizations adopt this strategy after health/performance issues rear their ugly head.
Yes, we did well in those games. But I don't see how it would be sustainable over a full season because we'd likely have pitchers going well beyond their previous innings pitched, at least in the high-stress major league environment. We could shuttle relievers back and forth between AAA and MLB, but that requires a lot of effective relievers with options left which doesn't seem realistic.
If MLB expanded rosters to 28 or 30 for the entire season instead of just September, then we could implement such a strategy, at least as a plan b.
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I see your point of the roster size being the limiting factor. They sure did throw a lot of guys at the problem this season though.
Maybe they get to three bonafide starters and do a bullpen game every third day.
I think one of the things that speaks for bullpen games is that it would be really hard for opponents to prepare for the next guy out of the pen all the time. Having a Mitch Keller is a predictable thing whereas having some guy named Hatch is much less predictable, especially if you don't know if he's gonna be entering the game or not.
It makes managing more fun, I guess?
Maybe they could do something like
Keller or 6-7 innings on average
SP2 for 6-7 innings on average
Jackson/Falter for ~3 innings each
Contreras/Borucki for ~3 innings each
Priester/Ortiz for ~3 innings each
That, in theory, would leave 15 innings over 5 games for the short relievers (Bednar, Holderman, Mlod, Selby, Moreta) to cover which seems doable. But that counts on a lot of unproven players coming through and I'd feel much better if we brought in two quality SPs because I don't have a lot of confidence in Priester, Contreras, or Falter.
Hate to see Yerry go somewhere else
I was so excited for him during his rookie year and for whatever reason he seemed to fall out of favor last season