Of course I went to the 40 man on the Pirates MLB site to see who should go and saw Gray Shugart and Cutch all on the list so I counted and came up with 41. Gray DFAd makes 40
David Bednar, H. Davis, Jack Suwinski were all terrible last year. Since the Bucs are so damn cheap to sign/trade for a real outfielder, they are banking on all 3 of these players to have good years.. That’s not a way to run a team. It’s more like a way to dream.
If you read the stumpf article, sounds like the FO and players are adamant that they were only a couple mistakes/plays, here or there, away from another 15-30 wins LOL. Not joking, this is their bold strategy for 2025. Ohhh, plus they really want to win per Travis LOL. Can’t make this stuff up!
I like the odds of Bednar bouncing back. Suwinski hopefully improves with a good hitting coach. Davis is still young. Joey Bart finally figured it out last year why should we not expect Davis to also.
With that said I still would like to see some talent brought in. Wouldn’t mind Tristan Casas. Horwitz could move to second and Gonzales to SS. IKF to utility where he is best. Another target would be Trevor Larnach. I think he is ready for a real breakout this year.
I fear Ben is going to trade for Starling Marte (because the Mets will retain some salary and he won’t have to trade anything of value) and we’re all going to partay like it’s 2013
I think it's going to be good for baseball--fans will either love 'em or hate 'em, but they'll pay attention. As Longenhagen pointed out, Sasaki to the Dodgers was MLB's Durant-to-the-Warriors moment. If anything, the Warriors only got more popular even if it turned some fans (like me) against them.
And as a New Yorker, Heyman probably has trouble being objective--would he feel the same if the Yankees or Mets had signed Ohtani, Yamamoto, and Sasaki? Did he raise concerns when the Mets spend 3/4 of a billion to sign Soto?
I like baseball, and I am not going to like baseball less because the Dodgers have a stacked team. Every team is a couple injuries away from being also-rans. Ask the Braves whose all-world offense became very mundane after a few injuries last year. Fortunes change quickly in baseball, and 17 different teams have won the World Series in the 24 years this century. It is a competitive league, and the Dodgers signing a few free agents is not going to change that.
I agree that Dodgers, and their FA signings are less of the problem. I doubt Guardians or Twins have these conversations to this level because they have owners that will go for it every now and again. The Dodgers free agent signings are salt in our non-competitive wounds.
As a follow-up, what's bad for baseball is when owners aren't spending to their full capacity to field a competitive team, even if those capacities differ based on market.
Obviously this is my personal bias but I'm not going to lose interest based on what the Dodgers (or Yankees or Mets) do but if I lose interest, it will be because I've lost trust that my favorite team isn't doing everything they can to contend.
I get where you’re coming from, but I love the team and professional baseball too much to curtail my attention. I’m just hoping I get to see another playoff run at some point.
It is frustrating knowing that they will probably waste 4 or 5 years of a generational talent because they don’t believe in windows and are trying to create a “sustainable revenue stream” or something.
Are you saying your interest has waned b/c Nutting hasn’t done everything he can to contend? Or, you believe he has done everything he can to contend, and that’s why you post on here regularly?
I've probably been rooting for them too long to give up, but evidently I've lost some enthusiasm. Between 2011 and 2018 I went to Pittsburgh three times for series and also saw the Pirates a couple of times in Cincy, once in Atlanta, and once in Arlington, Texas. Seven trips in eight years. None since then, though.
I do still watch them most nights on MLB.tv and spend too much time reading and posting :)
More from "Baseball Wit and Wisdom" as I pull on a second pair of socks on a frozen morning while waiting impatiently for the start of spring training:
"I cannot get rid of the hurt from losing...but after the last out of every loss, I must accept that there'll be a tomorrow. In fact, it's more than there'll be a tomorrow, it's that I want there to be a tomorrow. That's the big difference. I want tomorrow to come."
I’m in the middle on this. We have a lot of younger pitchers where you can’t count on bulk innings. You know Mitch can give you that, and very competently so.
But at the same time, it’s a painful amount of money to spend on a guy who is good but not great. I’d prefer spending to extend younger guys where you get more bang for your buck. It financially crowds out their ability to add elsewhere.
It’s really an owner problem we are complaining about here. You should be able accommodate extending young talent, adding in FA where needed, AND a contract like Keller’s. Seems like we can only afford 2 of 3 though.
They lock up a solid, veteran starter on a team-friendly contract, and people want to trade him away like the contract is some sort of albatross, rather than a significant value to the team. Makes no sense. These are the exact type of contracts that the Pirates need to be signing.
Speaking for myself, the only interest in trading a future 30 yo Keller is from the unarguable fact that they’ll also be required to eventually pay much younger and likely better players like Oneil Cruz, Paul Skenes, and Jared Jones. If you and Wilbur have such faith in Bob Nutting that he’ll open the budget enough to keep em all, plus Reynolds, then I commend you.
Eventually is not today. The issue that I have is that Keller is a known commodity: as close as it gets in pitching. You have a solid starter who has (thus far... knock on wood...) been durable to whom you can hand the ball in a playoff game when necessary. What are you going to get in exchange for Keller that is not a gamble (such as a decent-grade prospect untested in the show) and provides more bang for the buck?
Until you sit down with Jones, Skenes, or Cruz to discuss extensions and money, there is no reason to move Keller. If you really want to clear dead-weight off the books, the As were searching to both add payroll and acquire a 3bman. Seemed like a great time to give Hayes away.
But I again think you underestimate arbitration alone for those types if your reply moves immediately to extension, and the fact remains that the only club who’s been able to consistently win with budgets similar to the Pirates has made a habit of making this exact gamble.
To consider the suggestion unreasonable is to deny what has worked for others.
Got no faith. We just have to hope that, by divine intervention or something, when they get something right (like this rotation), they’ll somehow follow by getting more stuff right. Just don’t abandon the thing you got right,
Imagine a world where they didn't extend Reynolds. He would be traded by now (S2) and you would have 2 massive holes in the OF and be without your best hitter.
I too like Bryan Reynolds but that doesn’t negate the fact that in a few short years they’ll be spending roughly HALF of their current payroll on a pair of 2 WAR players.
The Pirates have found so few good players the last 8-9 years, but every time one starts making money, some fans want to get rid of him. Are they hoping for jobs on Fed. St? Finding good players is damn hard, even for competently run teams, let alone the Pirates.
What exactly are they going to get for Keller or Reynolds, or their salaries? If you go for established vets, at best you trade Keller and Reynolds for Keller and Reynolds, only more expensive. If you go for major leaguers with 4-5 yoc, because they’re so highly valued, you get Colin Moran.
If you go for prospects, you should keep in mind something BA has written about at least a couple of times: vet-for-prospects deals hardly ever work out for the team getting the prospects. By far the likeliest outcome is we get a bunch of Hudson Heads and Connor Scotts.
Dunno. The price seems about right to me for this year's hyped-up closer. Some money is deferred as per the Dodgers usual now. Scott's control has been better the past 2 years, and he has been the bees' knees. It still comes and goes though, like many high-end relievers.
I still like Carlos Estevez, and my long-shot hope now is that the Bucs sign him to shore up the back end: not as spectacular as Scott, but maybe more reliable and a safer bet. He will be cheaper than Scott (but still probably in the 8-figure range over 3 years).
I like Estevez, too, but people have actually heard of him and since he's not in the Anonymous Potential Turnaround Player by Statistical Analysis Program (APTPSAP), the Pirates cannot afford to sign him and certainly don't need a sliver of positive press to break their offseason streak. "Cutch and Skenes and pray for means!" (The means to win, of course.)
Caleb Ferguson was a very good signing, but I would have preferred a team option for a 2nd year at $4 million or so.
I don't think Estevez at $10 million per year for 3 years is going to break anyone's bank (anyone except the Pirates, that is). It is pretty sad that Cherrington doesn't even have $15 million to invest in the bullpen.
Morosi reported that the Cubs had offered Scott $66MM over four years and were the runners-up.
And while the Dodgers are getting the attention now, the most outrageous move in terms of spending was the Mets' deal with Soto (and the Yankees were willing to offer nearly as much).
I liked this because the Pirates have strong LHRP and RHRP arms in the system. If their value is artificially driven up by the Dodgers, they are dragging the Pirates along with them to our benefit.
We already know how overblown other facets of the game have become inflated the past 3 or 4 years, but none of it is a negative to the Pirates because we will never get into the market to find a 25 HR/year hitter like Santander. Players like Judge, Soto, Lindor, etc. are on another planet for at least 10 bottom dwellers including the Pirates.
Not if they don’t know when or how to cash in their chips. The when: the Rays would have traded Bednar last off-season, peak value. Now, we are stuck hoping for a bounce back year so he can reclaim any value as his arbitration clock is about to expire. The how: have we forgot just how bad our GM is at turning above average bullpen arms into tangible value? Clay Holmes to Yankees for Hoy Park and Diego Castillo and Robert Stephenson to Rays for Alika Williams. If there is any additional market value created by the Dodgers overpaying for bullpen arms, our FO has shown absolutely zero competence in actually being able to extract it?
Profar the first multi year deal for the bucs? He’s still out there and would be answer for RF.
Forgot Cutch wasn’t on 40-man yet. Now he is, Tristan Gray dfa’d.
Somebody else still gotta go for Shugart.
Of course I went to the 40 man on the Pirates MLB site to see who should go and saw Gray Shugart and Cutch all on the list so I counted and came up with 41. Gray DFAd makes 40
Damn I didn’t realize he was on there yet. Not a big deal, plenty of guys they won’t miss, but hopefully some of them won’t make it to camp.
Not sure who got DFAd to make room for Shugart. Someone I didn’t miss lol!!
Hopefully it’s one of the MI’s.
David Bednar, H. Davis, Jack Suwinski were all terrible last year. Since the Bucs are so damn cheap to sign/trade for a real outfielder, they are banking on all 3 of these players to have good years.. That’s not a way to run a team. It’s more like a way to dream.
If you read the stumpf article, sounds like the FO and players are adamant that they were only a couple mistakes/plays, here or there, away from another 15-30 wins LOL. Not joking, this is their bold strategy for 2025. Ohhh, plus they really want to win per Travis LOL. Can’t make this stuff up!
I don’t drink that Kool- aid.. Can’t believe it either.
I like the odds of Bednar bouncing back. Suwinski hopefully improves with a good hitting coach. Davis is still young. Joey Bart finally figured it out last year why should we not expect Davis to also.
With that said I still would like to see some talent brought in. Wouldn’t mind Tristan Casas. Horwitz could move to second and Gonzales to SS. IKF to utility where he is best. Another target would be Trevor Larnach. I think he is ready for a real breakout this year.
What if the Pirates go all in on SP? Sign Scherzer for 1/$12M. Skenes. Keller. Scherzer. Jones. Falter. Veteran guy to lead the youngsters.
We need bats. Bottom 3 of most offensive categories last year. Only got 1 bat so far. We have the pitching( I believe). Need a RFer
I fear Ben is going to trade for Starling Marte (because the Mets will retain some salary and he won’t have to trade anything of value) and we’re all going to partay like it’s 2013
The bat still looks like it has some juice, but the defense looks pretty bad at this point. I wonder if he’d do better in RF at PNC?
Bad defense didn’t stop him from acquiring BDLC
But he might be able to handle RF at PNC Park. Assuming that was the logic with BDLC too.
Pirates re-signed Ryder Ryan to a MiL deal.
Blue Jays to sign Santander. Maybe Varsho will be available. Not sure how much of an upgrade he would be though.
One caution on Varsho: he had a shoulder injury and isn’t likely to ready by open day. Not sure how that injury could alter his value moving forward.
Santander is a poor defending corner outfielder/DH and varsho is an elite defensive center fielder, don’t think one would fill the role of the other
Dodgers’ ridiculously stacked roster with Roki Sasaki is terrible for baseball.
By Jon Heyman
I think it's going to be good for baseball--fans will either love 'em or hate 'em, but they'll pay attention. As Longenhagen pointed out, Sasaki to the Dodgers was MLB's Durant-to-the-Warriors moment. If anything, the Warriors only got more popular even if it turned some fans (like me) against them.
And as a New Yorker, Heyman probably has trouble being objective--would he feel the same if the Yankees or Mets had signed Ohtani, Yamamoto, and Sasaki? Did he raise concerns when the Mets spend 3/4 of a billion to sign Soto?
I like baseball, and I am not going to like baseball less because the Dodgers have a stacked team. Every team is a couple injuries away from being also-rans. Ask the Braves whose all-world offense became very mundane after a few injuries last year. Fortunes change quickly in baseball, and 17 different teams have won the World Series in the 24 years this century. It is a competitive league, and the Dodgers signing a few free agents is not going to change that.
I agree that Dodgers, and their FA signings are less of the problem. I doubt Guardians or Twins have these conversations to this level because they have owners that will go for it every now and again. The Dodgers free agent signings are salt in our non-competitive wounds.
As a follow-up, what's bad for baseball is when owners aren't spending to their full capacity to field a competitive team, even if those capacities differ based on market.
Obviously this is my personal bias but I'm not going to lose interest based on what the Dodgers (or Yankees or Mets) do but if I lose interest, it will be because I've lost trust that my favorite team isn't doing everything they can to contend.
I get where you’re coming from, but I love the team and professional baseball too much to curtail my attention. I’m just hoping I get to see another playoff run at some point.
It is frustrating knowing that they will probably waste 4 or 5 years of a generational talent because they don’t believe in windows and are trying to create a “sustainable revenue stream” or something.
Are you saying your interest has waned b/c Nutting hasn’t done everything he can to contend? Or, you believe he has done everything he can to contend, and that’s why you post on here regularly?
I've probably been rooting for them too long to give up, but evidently I've lost some enthusiasm. Between 2011 and 2018 I went to Pittsburgh three times for series and also saw the Pirates a couple of times in Cincy, once in Atlanta, and once in Arlington, Texas. Seven trips in eight years. None since then, though.
I do still watch them most nights on MLB.tv and spend too much time reading and posting :)
one thing to note about piratefest:
i didnt see one sign of kebryan or any marketing material featuring kebryan
Definitely something to note. Were there any questions about him?
Not at the Q&A I attended.
More from "Baseball Wit and Wisdom" as I pull on a second pair of socks on a frozen morning while waiting impatiently for the start of spring training:
"I cannot get rid of the hurt from losing...but after the last out of every loss, I must accept that there'll be a tomorrow. In fact, it's more than there'll be a tomorrow, it's that I want there to be a tomorrow. That's the big difference. I want tomorrow to come."
-- Sparky Anderson
So the Dodgers effectively bid against themselves, and now the closer/reliever market is inflated by 10% into perpetuity. Seems good for the game.
Keller making 5/77 is looking more and more like a steal.
The “dump Keller’s contract” frenzy needs to go away. Just try to duplicate that in the FA market.
I’m in the middle on this. We have a lot of younger pitchers where you can’t count on bulk innings. You know Mitch can give you that, and very competently so.
But at the same time, it’s a painful amount of money to spend on a guy who is good but not great. I’d prefer spending to extend younger guys where you get more bang for your buck. It financially crowds out their ability to add elsewhere.
It’s really an owner problem we are complaining about here. You should be able accommodate extending young talent, adding in FA where needed, AND a contract like Keller’s. Seems like we can only afford 2 of 3 though.
They lock up a solid, veteran starter on a team-friendly contract, and people want to trade him away like the contract is some sort of albatross, rather than a significant value to the team. Makes no sense. These are the exact type of contracts that the Pirates need to be signing.
Speaking for myself, the only interest in trading a future 30 yo Keller is from the unarguable fact that they’ll also be required to eventually pay much younger and likely better players like Oneil Cruz, Paul Skenes, and Jared Jones. If you and Wilbur have such faith in Bob Nutting that he’ll open the budget enough to keep em all, plus Reynolds, then I commend you.
Eventually is not today. The issue that I have is that Keller is a known commodity: as close as it gets in pitching. You have a solid starter who has (thus far... knock on wood...) been durable to whom you can hand the ball in a playoff game when necessary. What are you going to get in exchange for Keller that is not a gamble (such as a decent-grade prospect untested in the show) and provides more bang for the buck?
Until you sit down with Jones, Skenes, or Cruz to discuss extensions and money, there is no reason to move Keller. If you really want to clear dead-weight off the books, the As were searching to both add payroll and acquire a 3bman. Seemed like a great time to give Hayes away.
Perfectly reasonable take!
But I again think you underestimate arbitration alone for those types if your reply moves immediately to extension, and the fact remains that the only club who’s been able to consistently win with budgets similar to the Pirates has made a habit of making this exact gamble.
To consider the suggestion unreasonable is to deny what has worked for others.
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
Got no faith. We just have to hope that, by divine intervention or something, when they get something right (like this rotation), they’ll somehow follow by getting more stuff right. Just don’t abandon the thing you got right,
Imagine a world where they didn't extend Reynolds. He would be traded by now (S2) and you would have 2 massive holes in the OF and be without your best hitter.
I too like Bryan Reynolds but that doesn’t negate the fact that in a few short years they’ll be spending roughly HALF of their current payroll on a pair of 2 WAR players.
Let’s hope they both age like fine wine.
The Pirates have found so few good players the last 8-9 years, but every time one starts making money, some fans want to get rid of him. Are they hoping for jobs on Fed. St? Finding good players is damn hard, even for competently run teams, let alone the Pirates.
What exactly are they going to get for Keller or Reynolds, or their salaries? If you go for established vets, at best you trade Keller and Reynolds for Keller and Reynolds, only more expensive. If you go for major leaguers with 4-5 yoc, because they’re so highly valued, you get Colin Moran.
If you go for prospects, you should keep in mind something BA has written about at least a couple of times: vet-for-prospects deals hardly ever work out for the team getting the prospects. By far the likeliest outcome is we get a bunch of Hudson Heads and Connor Scotts.
Dunno. The price seems about right to me for this year's hyped-up closer. Some money is deferred as per the Dodgers usual now. Scott's control has been better the past 2 years, and he has been the bees' knees. It still comes and goes though, like many high-end relievers.
I still like Carlos Estevez, and my long-shot hope now is that the Bucs sign him to shore up the back end: not as spectacular as Scott, but maybe more reliable and a safer bet. He will be cheaper than Scott (but still probably in the 8-figure range over 3 years).
I like Estevez, too, but people have actually heard of him and since he's not in the Anonymous Potential Turnaround Player by Statistical Analysis Program (APTPSAP), the Pirates cannot afford to sign him and certainly don't need a sliver of positive press to break their offseason streak. "Cutch and Skenes and pray for means!" (The means to win, of course.)
Caleb Ferguson was a very good signing, but I would have preferred a team option for a 2nd year at $4 million or so.
I don't think Estevez at $10 million per year for 3 years is going to break anyone's bank (anyone except the Pirates, that is). It is pretty sad that Cherrington doesn't even have $15 million to invest in the bullpen.
Morosi reported that the Cubs had offered Scott $66MM over four years and were the runners-up.
And while the Dodgers are getting the attention now, the most outrageous move in terms of spending was the Mets' deal with Soto (and the Yankees were willing to offer nearly as much).
The gap between the haves and the have nots is only going to keep growing as big market teams hand out outrageous contracts. MLB is so broken.
I liked this because the Pirates have strong LHRP and RHRP arms in the system. If their value is artificially driven up by the Dodgers, they are dragging the Pirates along with them to our benefit.
We already know how overblown other facets of the game have become inflated the past 3 or 4 years, but none of it is a negative to the Pirates because we will never get into the market to find a 25 HR/year hitter like Santander. Players like Judge, Soto, Lindor, etc. are on another planet for at least 10 bottom dwellers including the Pirates.
Not if they don’t know when or how to cash in their chips. The when: the Rays would have traded Bednar last off-season, peak value. Now, we are stuck hoping for a bounce back year so he can reclaim any value as his arbitration clock is about to expire. The how: have we forgot just how bad our GM is at turning above average bullpen arms into tangible value? Clay Holmes to Yankees for Hoy Park and Diego Castillo and Robert Stephenson to Rays for Alika Williams. If there is any additional market value created by the Dodgers overpaying for bullpen arms, our FO has shown absolutely zero competence in actually being able to extract it?
One day closer to ST, where I can focus on baseball instead of how screwed up the sport has become thanks to people who never put on a uniform.
As if you won’t still be bitching about that when the games begin.
Guilty as charged.
I miss the 80’s and early 90’s before the strike/lockout.
Many of our favorite times were based on facts that were untenable!
This is really the one topic I don't participate in.
I wish I had your intestinal fortitude.
at the end of the day, players gotta play.