1. Spencer Torkleson not very expensive and probably won’t cost a ton. Then could play 1b against LHP and some Righties with Horowitz sliding over to 2b and Nick to SS
2. Tristan Casas more expensive to acquire but still cost efficient. Would be the starter all year with Horowitz moving between 2b and possibly RF.
3. Nate Lowe might be more difficult to acquire since Washington just traded for him. Would also cost around 9-10 million for season. But would be a perfect fit at 1b because of no significant splits. Also a solid defender.
I’m not worried too much about Horwitz… yet. The injury and procedure by all accounts seem pretty minor. While it is annoying they waited all off season to perform surgery on a “chronic” issue, I can understand evaluating all non-surgical avenues before you reach that point.
The obvious concern is how this recovery will affect his ability to hit this season. It’s been pretty standard for guys who have received wrist surgery to have a loss in power, which i think is less concerning with Horwitz because he’s not much of a power guy.
Though it is frustrating we’re most likely going to see an internal option at 1st until he returns, I would rather they do that instead of signing any of the remaining free agents at the position because there is no way this ownership will be okay with cutting said player once Horwitz returns. I’d rather suffer through a month or so of Hall/Stewart/Cook than an entire season of Anthony Rizzo.
Would you rather the Pirates have signed IKF, Pham, Frazier, Cutch, and (Turd) Ferguson OR Pete Alonso and and some NRIs. Roughly the same price. I know what I’d pick….
Forget that they took two weeks to report it, they've known about an issue, since they even acquired him (as per Ben), and their contingency plan for him being injured was...... a battle between a group of replacement level, if that, players in camp. Like, I'm not necessarily unhappy with giving up Ortiz and two interesting arms for Horwitz, but you're telling me, they knew about this wrist issue, and still had to pad the return for the Guards? Who were likely looking to move him regardless? And the Pirates did absolutely NOTHING to have a backup plan other than a battle between DJ Stewart and Darick Hall?
This is an incredibly secretive FO. If Martians invaded PNC right before game time, they wouldn’t say a word until people started telling the media that little green guys had swiped their seats.
But it's not even that they didn't release the info, it's that they did nothing to supplement the position knowing ahead of time it may be an issue. Horwitz was supposed to be THE offensive upgrade of the off-season.
Ty France just signed yesterday with Twins. Solid hitter had a 117 wrc+ before a fractured heel mid-year. Twins paid only $1M.....that's in BC's range. I would have paid him $2M easy.
I seriously believe that, when they make a move, any move , they’re not really trying to upgrade. They have some other agenda, or maybe it’s all just random. If Horwitz or anybody else figured to improve the team a little, it’s just happenstance. Just like acquiring Pham and Frazier had nothing to do with improving the team. So there was no need for a backup plan.
"On why he signed older veterans Adam Frazier and Tommy Pham: "I just think, 'Just keep the most important thing the most important thing,' and that's to win....And then Tommy, obviously, I don't have history with, but everything I've ever heard about Tommy and the due diligence we did is that this guy just cares about one thing and that's winning. And so, we like the idea of bringing that element into our clubhouse."
I don't think they like sharing real information with us humble fans, and so they only shared it when they knew it would come out anyway once reporters showed up in Bradenton. I'm not even sure if the FO was the source or if they just confirmed the information from a source outside of the FO.
So with the drug testing, he probably needs to stay away from the opoid painkillers. His baseball swing is bad, I wonder if that contributed to his problem , did he swing like that in Milb?
Shelton said Reynolds will play right and Pham left. Any fantasies about Pham being a platoon guy are . . . fantasies. He’ll be the regular LF all year, even if he hits .150. We’ve seen this over and over.
Shelton did suggest that others will be in the LF mix, though I agree with your take that Pham will get the bulk of playing time (and even Shelton's quote implies that the others are almost afterthoughts):
"I think there's a good chance that we are going to see Bryan in right," Shelton said. "We'll play Tommy in left and then the mix of the other guys we have. But I think our plan is right now to play Bryan in right."
Hey!!! Mackey said he believes Pham will bring all the vibes that'll naturally improve the team!!!!!!!!
I started thinking about it today. I get that Cutch probably doesn't necessarily wanna hang it up, but, why would he want to come back and be a part of THIS?
Not to mention, I don't recall the specific wording, but when the Pirates traded Adam Frazier in the first place, he made some remarks that could be considered taking a shot at the FO. Then again, he's probably at that point of who else does he have to sign with?
I think we as fans won't ever truly understand the desire for the game from a professional like Cutch. He's above all the bullshit. Loves baseball and loves Pittsburgh.
Surely they're going to leave the door open for Jack, Bae, Cook, Yorke, etc. to get some starts in the OF with most of those coming from Pham, even if it isn't a strict platoon where Pham only faces lefties (which I don't think any of us expected after they spent $4MM to sign him; and yes it's pretty sad to think that $4MM is a big investment).
Well at least they timed this on the day pitchers and catchers report. Must of felt our excitement. Assholes.
Anyone remember when Pens, Steelers and Pirates would have a few players set up at Hills and Kmarts to sign autographs? Zarley Zalapski was one I got. And Gary Anderson. Bucs should do that at Giant Eagles or something. But won't because then some young kid may become a fan. And that's not allowed. Jerks.
Many years ago I was at a game in Three Rivers in the OF bleachers and out of nowhere players showed up about 45 minutes before gametime to sign autographs. Maybe it had been announced but there wasn't a big crowd of fans. And we're talking the cheap seats. I think I got AVS's and Bonilla's and several others. One of my favorite memories from attending a game. I think it was part of an effort to win back fans after the drug scandal.
I worked at an Italian restaurant as a waiter back in those days. 3 or 4 members of the Pens defense corps came in often during the postseason to load up on carbs. I waited on them 5 or 6 times. (I think that they may have requested me, since I shooed away autograph seekers and never paid them any extra attention- pretending, basically, to not know who they were... meanwhile we forced a blackout on all games during work and then watched the recording at the bartenders' house after work).
I remember an old man telling me an epic tall tale about Ron Tugnutt at New Kensington Eat n Park back in the day. But called him "Tagnutt". Story started something like... "Guy stands about 5 foot 6 and goes by the name of "Tagnutt".
I was playing ninja turtles in the yard when he came out to tell me the pens drafted some foreigner named "Jagger". I thought last name Bush? What da f dad?
I remember Jim Johnson at the Lower Burrell Hills. He was #6 I'm pretty sure. We hit up the Monroeville one too. Prob Greensburg too. I'm 45 and remember this stuff. Pirates are tragic in promotion. I bet the players would love it too.
Took my oldest kid to a game here in Atlanta in about 2001, and he got Adam Hyzdu to sign his cap. I remember thinking, who the heck is this guy? Looked the part, but didn’t play the part.
I also saw Cunneyworth scrap in a game and bleed on the ice. Some dude next to us said "he better go home and put a steak on that eye". At 7 I think I thought wtf.
I think I'd give Yorke and Bart a look see at first. Yorke for the large side and Bart the short side. It would let Bart hit lefties without the added stress of catching on those days.
Yeah... I think that if you can get Bart in some starts at 1B, you can reduce his downtime and keep his bat in the lineup more often. Makes way too much sense for Ben and Derrick though... so expect something stupid.
Going back to the interview, this caught my attention:
"I’m gonna lean on what Dr. Graham has told us, and he’s really optimistic and confident coming out of the surgery that he feels like it went really well and that Spencer should be back doing baseball stuff at some point during spring training and certainly with a chance to contribute in 2025,"
Does anyone else think that last statement is ominous? A "chance" to contribute in 2025?
Also, I agree with Ben that the positive in this is that it provides a good opportunity to get a better look at other players. Maybe it gives Yorke or Cook or Triolo or Davis even a chance to get ABs they wouldn't otherwise get and then earn their way to being a bigger part of the team's plans.
Did he just say that they (someone) knew about the injury, but he did not become aware of it until Piratefest? It is hard to make sense of the BS that he spews to cover for his incompetence, but that seems like what he said... that the team physician knew but did not bother to tell the GM prior to the trade. Another sterling performance by GMBCs front office and personnel.
They knew of the chronic symptoms at the time of the trade and didn't think it was something to be worried about, but didn't know about him aggravating the ligament until after PiratesFest.
Maybe this will be Cherington's "Archer moment". Obviously not as high profile, but it was his biggest deal of the offseason.
The Gimenez for Horwitz deal makes much more sense now and appears to be a much more even trade than anyone thought at the time, since apparently everyone but the Pirates knew that Horwitz's future was uncertain owing to a chronic injury. The only sucker in the his deal now is our beloved buffoon, GMBC.
On a couple of levels--the awareness of a chronic condition and still giving up three interesting pitchers and that a deal to acquire a player like Horwitz is their "big" offseason move?
I don't expect it to turn out as bad as the Archer deal did, but then the Guardians have one of the best track records at developing pitchers.
I am glad to know that Ben both knew of the chronic condition at the time of the trade and that he didn't know that Spencer had aggravated the condition until after PiratesFest.
Obviously it doesn't look good when you knew of a chronic condition and still gave up value only to see the condition get worse, which is predictable with most chronic conditions. It seems like they'd have given up less, but maybe it will still work out.
And hopefully the next shoe to drop isn't an injury or two to a SP that makes us wish we had Ortiz.
Many, well 2 or 3 posters at most, recall i strongly disliked the Horwitz trade but I didnt realize he was dinged up, I would have been more vocal in my dissent....ffs
I know we have depth in pitching, but since the deadline to have dealt Reilly, Priester, Kennedy, Hartle, and Ortiz while only acquiring a few relievers on one-year deals seems a little risky. Hope they've evaluated those pitchers accurately.
In the aggregate, that does look pretty awful. They definitely sold to early on Reilly and Hartle IMO. Again, this FO and their inability to effective manage assets.
Firstbasemen to target
1. Spencer Torkleson not very expensive and probably won’t cost a ton. Then could play 1b against LHP and some Righties with Horowitz sliding over to 2b and Nick to SS
2. Tristan Casas more expensive to acquire but still cost efficient. Would be the starter all year with Horowitz moving between 2b and possibly RF.
3. Nate Lowe might be more difficult to acquire since Washington just traded for him. Would also cost around 9-10 million for season. But would be a perfect fit at 1b because of no significant splits. Also a solid defender.
I’m not worried too much about Horwitz… yet. The injury and procedure by all accounts seem pretty minor. While it is annoying they waited all off season to perform surgery on a “chronic” issue, I can understand evaluating all non-surgical avenues before you reach that point.
The obvious concern is how this recovery will affect his ability to hit this season. It’s been pretty standard for guys who have received wrist surgery to have a loss in power, which i think is less concerning with Horwitz because he’s not much of a power guy.
Though it is frustrating we’re most likely going to see an internal option at 1st until he returns, I would rather they do that instead of signing any of the remaining free agents at the position because there is no way this ownership will be okay with cutting said player once Horwitz returns. I’d rather suffer through a month or so of Hall/Stewart/Cook than an entire season of Anthony Rizzo.
Would you rather the Pirates have signed IKF, Pham, Frazier, Cutch, and (Turd) Ferguson OR Pete Alonso and and some NRIs. Roughly the same price. I know what I’d pick….
Honestly? The former.
Sinking a quarter if their payroll into a long term deal for an aging one-dimensional slugger would be the worse of two terrible scenarios.
He signed a 2-year deal.
With his last team, after spending the winter seeking 5.
If we're playing pipedream hypotheticals, then sure, he'd have signed with the Pirates for the same.
Pirate first baseman in 2023 produced as much WAR as Pete Alonso in 2024.
Horwitz was equally as valuable in half the at bats!
You do not have to spend a shitload on first basemen.
There’s a reason Alonso’s market is what it was.
Scott Borass wants to send a terminator back to get whoever invented the concept of WAR.
I do like that his comps for Alonso were FAs from 10 years ago that didn’t work out at all. Like Prince Fielder.
If baseball doesn’t get a salary cap soon he may become rich enough to self fund such a project.
Why does this management team wait until the 1st day of training camp to report a newsworthy injury which required surgery two weeks ago?
How hard is it to put out a press release?
Forget that they took two weeks to report it, they've known about an issue, since they even acquired him (as per Ben), and their contingency plan for him being injured was...... a battle between a group of replacement level, if that, players in camp. Like, I'm not necessarily unhappy with giving up Ortiz and two interesting arms for Horwitz, but you're telling me, they knew about this wrist issue, and still had to pad the return for the Guards? Who were likely looking to move him regardless? And the Pirates did absolutely NOTHING to have a backup plan other than a battle between DJ Stewart and Darick Hall?
I don't even know those guys.
This is an incredibly secretive FO. If Martians invaded PNC right before game time, they wouldn’t say a word until people started telling the media that little green guys had swiped their seats.
But it's not even that they didn't release the info, it's that they did nothing to supplement the position knowing ahead of time it may be an issue. Horwitz was supposed to be THE offensive upgrade of the off-season.
Ty France just signed yesterday with Twins. Solid hitter had a 117 wrc+ before a fractured heel mid-year. Twins paid only $1M.....that's in BC's range. I would have paid him $2M easy.
I seriously believe that, when they make a move, any move , they’re not really trying to upgrade. They have some other agenda, or maybe it’s all just random. If Horwitz or anybody else figured to improve the team a little, it’s just happenstance. Just like acquiring Pham and Frazier had nothing to do with improving the team. So there was no need for a backup plan.
From DKPS:
"On why he signed older veterans Adam Frazier and Tommy Pham: "I just think, 'Just keep the most important thing the most important thing,' and that's to win....And then Tommy, obviously, I don't have history with, but everything I've ever heard about Tommy and the due diligence we did is that this guy just cares about one thing and that's winning. And so, we like the idea of bringing that element into our clubhouse."
Remarkable how the only veterans who care about winning can’t play the game any more.
Glad they now have that element, only caring about winning, in the clubhouse!
I don't think they like sharing real information with us humble fans, and so they only shared it when they knew it would come out anyway once reporters showed up in Bradenton. I'm not even sure if the FO was the source or if they just confirmed the information from a source outside of the FO.
This is ominous: Hayes said he feels good, but not 100%. With the back, he doesn't expect ever to feel 100% again.
Andrew Destin in the PG has a positive article on Hayes, including writing that "Hayes is in as good of shape as he's been in the past few seasons."
Hayes has been able to lift this offseason and get back to a two-handed swing, and he sounds optimistic about the upcoming season. Let's hope...
Hayes’ troubles are frustrating, but I suspect he doesn’t get enough credit for working to deal with a problem that’s not his fault.
So with the drug testing, he probably needs to stay away from the opoid painkillers. His baseball swing is bad, I wonder if that contributed to his problem , did he swing like that in Milb?
Such a shame because his defense is a joy to watch when he's healthy.
Ugh
Shelton said Reynolds will play right and Pham left. Any fantasies about Pham being a platoon guy are . . . fantasies. He’ll be the regular LF all year, even if he hits .150. We’ve seen this over and over.
Shelton did suggest that others will be in the LF mix, though I agree with your take that Pham will get the bulk of playing time (and even Shelton's quote implies that the others are almost afterthoughts):
"I think there's a good chance that we are going to see Bryan in right," Shelton said. "We'll play Tommy in left and then the mix of the other guys we have. But I think our plan is right now to play Bryan in right."
Cherington: THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES.
Hey!!! Mackey said he believes Pham will bring all the vibes that'll naturally improve the team!!!!!!!!
I started thinking about it today. I get that Cutch probably doesn't necessarily wanna hang it up, but, why would he want to come back and be a part of THIS?
Not to mention, I don't recall the specific wording, but when the Pirates traded Adam Frazier in the first place, he made some remarks that could be considered taking a shot at the FO. Then again, he's probably at that point of who else does he have to sign with?
I think we as fans won't ever truly understand the desire for the game from a professional like Cutch. He's above all the bullshit. Loves baseball and loves Pittsburgh.
And you thought Reynolds was bad in LF last year... wait until you see this guy try to shag a ball in the north side notch.
Surely they're going to leave the door open for Jack, Bae, Cook, Yorke, etc. to get some starts in the OF with most of those coming from Pham, even if it isn't a strict platoon where Pham only faces lefties (which I don't think any of us expected after they spent $4MM to sign him; and yes it's pretty sad to think that $4MM is a big investment).
left field will be one of these
MARTE METS
McCARTHY DIAMONDBACKS
WADE GIANTS
SANCHEZ MARLINS
KJERSTAD ORIOLES
LOWE RAYS
LOWE RAYS
ROBERT WHITE SOX
Gimme any of them except for Wade or Robert Jr. I’m fine with Marte as a pure salary dump.
I want Robert jr
I want Marte
Only if he comes with Mauricio.
he'll be going on the 60 day dl?
nobody has been dropped yet for Pham?
A roster spot available now for Peggy or ........Alika?
Well at least they timed this on the day pitchers and catchers report. Must of felt our excitement. Assholes.
Anyone remember when Pens, Steelers and Pirates would have a few players set up at Hills and Kmarts to sign autographs? Zarley Zalapski was one I got. And Gary Anderson. Bucs should do that at Giant Eagles or something. But won't because then some young kid may become a fan. And that's not allowed. Jerks.
I got Gary Anderson, and I believe Bob Walk. Zarley would be a nice one to have.
Many years ago I was at a game in Three Rivers in the OF bleachers and out of nowhere players showed up about 45 minutes before gametime to sign autographs. Maybe it had been announced but there wasn't a big crowd of fans. And we're talking the cheap seats. I think I got AVS's and Bonilla's and several others. One of my favorite memories from attending a game. I think it was part of an effort to win back fans after the drug scandal.
I would have let AVS sign my tits.
hahahaha
Young NMR was stoked to meet Kjell Samuelson and Paul Coffey at the Greensburg Hills.
I worked at an Italian restaurant as a waiter back in those days. 3 or 4 members of the Pens defense corps came in often during the postseason to load up on carbs. I waited on them 5 or 6 times. (I think that they may have requested me, since I shooed away autograph seekers and never paid them any extra attention- pretending, basically, to not know who they were... meanwhile we forced a blackout on all games during work and then watched the recording at the bartenders' house after work).
Great tippers BTW.
did tommy barrasso ever get up from the bar? ;)
Lol... no it was just the 2nd and 3rd liners from the d-corps, eating loads of pasta.
I remember an old man telling me an epic tall tale about Ron Tugnutt at New Kensington Eat n Park back in the day. But called him "Tagnutt". Story started something like... "Guy stands about 5 foot 6 and goes by the name of "Tagnutt".
When I grew out of my hockey skates my dad informed that Coffeys wore skates 2 sizes too small so it was a good thing.
And it was true. Bastard had a point
That's a great dad right there.
I was playing ninja turtles in the yard when he came out to tell me the pens drafted some foreigner named "Jagger". I thought last name Bush? What da f dad?
RIP to a great man.
I remember Jim Johnson at the Lower Burrell Hills. He was #6 I'm pretty sure. We hit up the Monroeville one too. Prob Greensburg too. I'm 45 and remember this stuff. Pirates are tragic in promotion. I bet the players would love it too.
Think I got Randy Cunneyworths as well.
this is quickly turning into a naming contest of obscure player references while slugging beers with buddies and i am SO here for it.
somebody has to have washed troy loney's car or something.
Took my oldest kid to a game here in Atlanta in about 2001, and he got Adam Hyzdu to sign his cap. I remember thinking, who the heck is this guy? Looked the part, but didn’t play the part.
Adam Hyzdu looked like Tarzan. Played like Jane.
Damn ginger. #24 I think. Dude would throw down.
I also saw Cunneyworth scrap in a game and bleed on the ice. Some dude next to us said "he better go home and put a steak on that eye". At 7 I think I thought wtf.
WE USED TO BE A REAL COUNTRY
I think I'd give Yorke and Bart a look see at first. Yorke for the large side and Bart the short side. It would let Bart hit lefties without the added stress of catching on those days.
Yeah... I think that if you can get Bart in some starts at 1B, you can reduce his downtime and keep his bat in the lineup more often. Makes way too much sense for Ben and Derrick though... so expect something stupid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMDpJi8565w PG uploaded this video of Ben explaining the Spencer situation
Going back to the interview, this caught my attention:
"I’m gonna lean on what Dr. Graham has told us, and he’s really optimistic and confident coming out of the surgery that he feels like it went really well and that Spencer should be back doing baseball stuff at some point during spring training and certainly with a chance to contribute in 2025,"
Does anyone else think that last statement is ominous? A "chance" to contribute in 2025?
Also, I agree with Ben that the positive in this is that it provides a good opportunity to get a better look at other players. Maybe it gives Yorke or Cook or Triolo or Davis even a chance to get ABs they wouldn't otherwise get and then earn their way to being a bigger part of the team's plans.
Did he just say that they (someone) knew about the injury, but he did not become aware of it until Piratefest? It is hard to make sense of the BS that he spews to cover for his incompetence, but that seems like what he said... that the team physician knew but did not bother to tell the GM prior to the trade. Another sterling performance by GMBCs front office and personnel.
They knew of the chronic symptoms at the time of the trade and didn't think it was something to be worried about, but didn't know about him aggravating the ligament until after PiratesFest.
Maybe this will be Cherington's "Archer moment". Obviously not as high profile, but it was his biggest deal of the offseason.
You should apply for a job as Ben's translator to translate his gibberish into English.
god that's depressing.
The Gimenez for Horwitz deal makes much more sense now and appears to be a much more even trade than anyone thought at the time, since apparently everyone but the Pirates knew that Horwitz's future was uncertain owing to a chronic injury. The only sucker in the his deal now is our beloved buffoon, GMBC.
On a couple of levels--the awareness of a chronic condition and still giving up three interesting pitchers and that a deal to acquire a player like Horwitz is their "big" offseason move?
I don't expect it to turn out as bad as the Archer deal did, but then the Guardians have one of the best track records at developing pitchers.
i'm mostly speaking to the part where even this milquetoast trade ranks up there as any sort of consequential move to begin with.
somebody poke federal street with a stick to see if it's still alive.
Kovacevic says there is a sense that their biggest move is yet to happen. He also says to not hold him to that.
Probably need to ring a bell to let them eat cake. Being timid is part of their identity, a total disregard to the fans and appearance of trying.
I am glad to know that Ben both knew of the chronic condition at the time of the trade and that he didn't know that Spencer had aggravated the condition until after PiratesFest.
Obviously it doesn't look good when you knew of a chronic condition and still gave up value only to see the condition get worse, which is predictable with most chronic conditions. It seems like they'd have given up less, but maybe it will still work out.
And hopefully the next shoe to drop isn't an injury or two to a SP that makes us wish we had Ortiz.
So they looked at Dr. reports, but were they allowed to put him in a cage? Maybe yes if he consented.....but maybe no per Union?
One good bit of news: Dauri Moreta threw a short bullpen.
Many, well 2 or 3 posters at most, recall i strongly disliked the Horwitz trade but I didnt realize he was dinged up, I would have been more vocal in my dissent....ffs
I didn’t mind getting Horwitz, but I thought they overpaid pretty badly.
I know we have depth in pitching, but since the deadline to have dealt Reilly, Priester, Kennedy, Hartle, and Ortiz while only acquiring a few relievers on one-year deals seems a little risky. Hope they've evaluated those pitchers accurately.
In the aggregate, that does look pretty awful. They definitely sold to early on Reilly and Hartle IMO. Again, this FO and their inability to effective manage assets.
Prospect hugging in midseason form already!
welp, f*ck this sh*t
Is there a return policy?
They could talk to the Lakers.
Yeah, but the Pirates would have to pay the shipping and Nuttin refused.
At least Tommy Edman returned from his wrist issue without issue... oh wait.
As per podcast yesterday, is the FO prepared for a contingency? Hell no, and they've known about it for how many weeks?
Contingency is apparently Darick Hall and DJ Stewart, among others. GMBC mentioned them to the media this morning
Oh good, that's comforting depth. A 29 year that has played 5 innings of 1b and a 31 year old with 159 innings. Nice Ben.
From DKPS:
They knew about the wrist. He aggravated it during his offseason hitting and that’s what led to the surgery.
Neither Reynolds nor Endy will play first this spring. Mentioned Hall.
Still trying to trade for an OF. Only signed Pham and Frazier to troll the fans.
(I added the last thing.)
You just read his mind, sometimes things are implied with little to no words.
🤣