My conservative take on Jones is bring him back in June and piggyback him with Mlod. No more than 3 innings or 60 pitches......for the rest of the season. I would really exercise caution because I still don't think this is going to end well eventually.
A conservative approach is making him a back end bullpen arm for rest of season. What you suggest will reduce the bullpen by an arm because Pirates would have to use two Pitchers do the job that one Pitcher normally does.
That's another option, but not sure high leverage innings is the best place after the injury. Jones is ultra competitive, so I would probably keep him in his usual starter role
when games are not technically on the line in first 3 innings. But yes short starts would tax the bullpen.....although Mlod and Ferguson could have 2 three-inning outings every 5-6 days. And Pirates could go with 14 pitchers which such a deep pitching roster they have. It will be interesting.......they'll probably just let him build back up to 90 pitches and see where the chips fall. But I would take the conservative approach with him.
Brown is an idiot, I trust nothing that comes out of that rubes mouth. If he isn’t being fed exactly what to say from the brass he doesn’t have an insightful or interesting point ever. Total zero.
Yeah. Shutdown for 6-8 weeks was the best possible outcome, since this is what almost every team does now when a pitcher complains of elbow soreness, even if there is no damage on the scans.
I know we were fearing the worst, but I'd classify not being able to throw until the start of May which likely pushes his return to the end of May at the earliest as bad news. It's only good news relative to worse news.
To defend Brown, which I rarely do, his overly optimistic outlook probably had Jones returning to the mound by early April and back with the Pirates a couple of weeks later.
Unbelievable. What is wrong with Blanco now? Another guy who can’t get on the field. This guy will not amount to anything unless he can play a full season for once.
It is, and that makes me a bit concerned about Jones despite the mostly good news that he doesn't require surgery. He missed 1/3 of the season last year and now will miss at least that much this year.
Saying he won't require surgery. Good news as long as it just doesn't become postponing surgery but for now I'll take them at their word so I'll call it good news.
Me too, Greg Brown needs slapped (joking) for breaking news like that. I was thinking Jones was going to be out a year and a half, now hopefully only 2 to 3 months.
We are all talking about Pirate Pitching. We have this resource in large numbers, and there are probably 2/3 of the MLB teams that need Starting Pitching. We are poor and cannot afford to buy the hitting we need to get us over the hump - can we find a team willing to swap some of their hitting for some of our pitching? Can we do that on EBAY? Maybe do that before some of our "kids" turn 26/27 and are still waiting for a chance in MLB?
Has anyone seen Braxton Ashcraft with the Pirates or in Pirate City?
I think counting Ashcraft as a MLB starting pitcher in demand is incorrect. As a pitcher with 'stuff' sure. He has maxed at 73 innings (last year) because of injuries not because Pirates have blocked him. He has a total of 19 innings above AA. I just don't see a team with a major league ready bat (what I think you are asking for) willing to give that up without a lot more than just Ashcraft. From my perspective this is a critical year for Pirates/Ashcraft. He could add to his value for a trade or as a legit MLB rotation piece for the Pirates by kicking butt in AAA. But that has to happen before I worry about his age. As NMR said below, you want a bat we really want in our lineup then Bubba is on the market. btw. I am 100% on board with that... with the appropriate return.
Not what you're looking for, but Ashcraft should be more in-demand than Malone was and I'd be happy to throw in a low-A SS prospect and get two years of someone like Marte.
Unfortunately, we have Cherington and some other team doesn't.
I saw him a few weeks ago when I was in Bradenton at practices, a simulated game and a spring training game or two. My analysis (which should mean very little) is that he looked like he will be a major league pitcher, but didn't really have a game plan as far as setting up hitters.
For me the reason the comparison doesn’t work is because Keller has demonstrated All-Star level ability for half a season, while Nick G hasn’t come close to that kind of production yet. But I do see what you mean.
respect your opinion, but will double down on my belief that if a similar hitter had taken four years to get his footing and then regressed after a half-season of All Star-level performance we'd universally consider that a developmental *failure*.
I looked long and hard at many of the Cruz futures because if he breaks out some of the numbers would look silly. I couldn’t pass up the over (20.5) on SB. If he’s healthy he easily beats that.
Pirates management has to do a balancing act of putting the best MLB roster on the field and managing assets to maximize service time.
They seemed to have made a change in their approach last year with how they managed Jones and Skenes. However this year by choosing Mlod over any one of the rookies, it appears they are prioritizing the future over the present once again.
agree with Bucsfan, good conversation starter my friend.
Your presumption of service time manipulation seems to handwaive a pretty obvious difference in present talent/preparedness.
How would you argue that Carmen Mlodzinski wasn't the best pitcher of the bunch this spring?
I'm more bummed that they're entering the year without a single one of Burrows/Ashcraft/Nicolas in the pen. Hard for me to argue any of them plus Bubba and Harrington earned a rotation spot, though, as much as I wish they did.
That’s one of the reasons I wanted Mlod in the bullpen rather than the rotation. He seems better suited for that role due to his limited repertoire of pitches.
also my biggest point in favor of Harrington in the rotation, he was just way too hittable for my taste this spring. Couple ticks less velo and good not great command is a slippy slope for a guy like him. Give him and Bubba a month to duke it out.
I see it different. I think the FO is a bunch of bumbling boobs that completely mismanaged their assets by not managing their years of control on Jones and Skenes—the biggest asset the team has ever had. As for the current AAA guys, none of them has shown they’re fully major league ready and all have limited AAA experience. So I’m fine with this decision.
I agree that they should’ve manipulated service time. I’m one of the few that’s a big fan of doing that. Entirely possible that they regret the decision they made and are handling differently, but I’m also not sure how much of a difference it makes with a guy like Harrington, who in all likelihood won’t be a perennial all star?
In Jones' case, they may have figured either he'd struggle and they could send him down for a couple of week to gain that extra year of control or that they'd simply send him down around the All Star break to save some innings on his arm, again gaining that extra year of control. But between Jones' success and his injury, they couldn't do either and ended up trading _two weeks_ of '24 for all of '30. I'd say that's pretty bad mismanagement.
Long term, I think Harrington is the better pitcher. He commands, and by commands I mean very well, 3-4 pitches. He may only have one above average pitch as it stands, but i think he has a better bet long term. Mlod essentially has two pitches, has never been much of a command guy, and his two pitches haven't necessarily been big bat misses.
In the grand scheme, I hope Mlod shoves, cause be it him or another depth guy become more trade assets.
Mlod has looked good this Spring, which hopefully is more representative of how he pitches than the near 5 ERA Pitcher he was in AA when he last was in a starting rotation.
Both were Competitive Balance A Picks - Mudge was #31 in 2020 and Harrington was #36 in 2022. I liked both picks, but Harrington has been more consistent in his development as a SP. Mudge was up and down as a SP; last year as a full-time SP was 2022 in AA, but filled in for the Pirates in middle, long relief, and SP in 2023 and 2024. Both are going to be very important parts of this pitching staff moving forward.
I suppose they could honestly think that Chandler and/or Harrington aren’t ready? Or that Mlod offers production equal or greater to than the still developing Chandler/Harrington? I can see this line of argument more with a high beta guy like Chandler. I think Harrington could come up and pitch passably as he is.
It would definitely seem to represent a departure. Good discussion starter Scott.
Assuming Falter and Stratton healthy and ready to go, it comes down to 3 guys for 1 spot. Strzelecki was traded for in a minor trade and is out of options, so I give him the advantage. Lawrence was a late sign on a minor league deal, so he’s next. Wentz is also out of options but would be the 4th lefty in the bullpen, so I have him with the lowest odds.
And that could be at least part of the rationale in going with Mlod in the rotation to start the season. Opens another spot to keep a reliever that would otherwise be available to other teams. They’ll churn through a lot of guys during the season anyway and I don’t have a problem letting the likes of Harrington, Chandler and even someone like Burrows spending time in AAA early on. Ideally, Mlod is a capable 5th for a bit and one (or some) of the young guys knock down the door and force their way onto the rotation and present themselves as a clear upgrade.
"And that could be at least part of the rationale in going with Mlod in the rotation to start the season. Opens another spot to keep a reliever that would otherwise be available to other teams."
I agree completely with this. However, I think Mlod is a guy who found a niche in the bullpen where his 2 plus pitches play. Trying to shoehorn him into a starter's role with only 2 plus pitches and sketchy command is a recipe for bad things IMO. They managed it with Ortiz though for a time, so they might be able to manage it with Mlod.
For a team with so much pitching depth, supposedly. They sure do ransack their best bullpen pieces quite often to supplement their starters.
I also wonder about several off days in the first few weeks so really only might need 4 starters for a bit so that allows the AAA guys to also stay on a regular schedule by going down
My conservative take on Jones is bring him back in June and piggyback him with Mlod. No more than 3 innings or 60 pitches......for the rest of the season. I would really exercise caution because I still don't think this is going to end well eventually.
A conservative approach is making him a back end bullpen arm for rest of season. What you suggest will reduce the bullpen by an arm because Pirates would have to use two Pitchers do the job that one Pitcher normally does.
That's another option, but not sure high leverage innings is the best place after the injury. Jones is ultra competitive, so I would probably keep him in his usual starter role
when games are not technically on the line in first 3 innings. But yes short starts would tax the bullpen.....although Mlod and Ferguson could have 2 three-inning outings every 5-6 days. And Pirates could go with 14 pitchers which such a deep pitching roster they have. It will be interesting.......they'll probably just let him build back up to 90 pitches and see where the chips fall. But I would take the conservative approach with him.
Ha! Jones' dad responded to Brown's "not good news" comment: "Wanna bet? #GodIsGood." Yay, dad!
i trust Brown a lot more than Jones´s dad
the guy is brittle
we should not count on him for anything more than a 5th starter
Brown is an idiot, I trust nothing that comes out of that rubes mouth. If he isn’t being fed exactly what to say from the brass he doesn’t have an insightful or interesting point ever. Total zero.
Yeah. Shutdown for 6-8 weeks was the best possible outcome, since this is what almost every team does now when a pitcher complains of elbow soreness, even if there is no damage on the scans.
Yeah, hell, they had me at “no torn ligament.”
I know we were fearing the worst, but I'd classify not being able to throw until the start of May which likely pushes his return to the end of May at the earliest as bad news. It's only good news relative to worse news.
To defend Brown, which I rarely do, his overly optimistic outlook probably had Jones returning to the mound by early April and back with the Pirates a couple of weeks later.
Then Brown has no idea how MLB teams operate today when pitchers complain of elbow pain. There was no way he was coming back before May.
Exactly. If the defense of Brown is he doesn’t know anything about baseball but cares about the team then I agree.
Sounds like a bullet was dodged with Jones. No tears or damage. Will be shutdown for 6 weeks
Haha, I think everybody's been sitting in front of the screen refreshing MLBTR.
Guilty
Fairly safe to assume that he'll be going to the 60 day.
Opens a roster spot for one of the bullpen guys on the bubble.
I definitely go with Wentz over Strzzzzz.
Does the 60 days begin Thursday or can they date it earlier?
I think 3 days before opening day, but not sure.
I found this somewhere and you're correct. It begins opening day, but they can backdate it three days.
I think the latter
Carlson Reed and Tony Blanco Jr placed on the 60 IL today.
That's not good news at all.
Unbelievable. What is wrong with Blanco now? Another guy who can’t get on the field. This guy will not amount to anything unless he can play a full season for once.
Health is a skill and he doesn’t have it.
It is, and that makes me a bit concerned about Jones despite the mostly good news that he doesn't require surgery. He missed 1/3 of the season last year and now will miss at least that much this year.
That sucks
Doesn't sound good for Jones.
No torn ligament, no surgery, shut down for six weeks.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2025/03/jared-jones-will-not-require-surgery-to-be-shut-down-for-six-weeks.html
Sucks, but honestly I was expecting worse.
SOP for any pitcher who complains of elbow problems now if the scans come back negative.
Me too
Was there an update somewhere? Agree in general it has not sounded good.
Greg Brown said it wasn't good.https://www.si.com/mlb/pirates/news/pittsburgh-pirates-bad-news-jared-jones-injury
Thank you
MLBTR just posted an article that he will be shut down for six weeks. https://x.com/_NoahHiles/status/1904667717409341940
Saying he won't require surgery. Good news as long as it just doesn't become postponing surgery but for now I'll take them at their word so I'll call it good news.
Me too, Greg Brown needs slapped (joking) for breaking news like that. I was thinking Jones was going to be out a year and a half, now hopefully only 2 to 3 months.
We are all talking about Pirate Pitching. We have this resource in large numbers, and there are probably 2/3 of the MLB teams that need Starting Pitching. We are poor and cannot afford to buy the hitting we need to get us over the hump - can we find a team willing to swap some of their hitting for some of our pitching? Can we do that on EBAY? Maybe do that before some of our "kids" turn 26/27 and are still waiting for a chance in MLB?
Has anyone seen Braxton Ashcraft with the Pirates or in Pirate City?
I think counting Ashcraft as a MLB starting pitcher in demand is incorrect. As a pitcher with 'stuff' sure. He has maxed at 73 innings (last year) because of injuries not because Pirates have blocked him. He has a total of 19 innings above AA. I just don't see a team with a major league ready bat (what I think you are asking for) willing to give that up without a lot more than just Ashcraft. From my perspective this is a critical year for Pirates/Ashcraft. He could add to his value for a trade or as a legit MLB rotation piece for the Pirates by kicking butt in AAA. But that has to happen before I worry about his age. As NMR said below, you want a bat we really want in our lineup then Bubba is on the market. btw. I am 100% on board with that... with the appropriate return.
Very accurate, I’d say. Pitcher for hitter challenge trades are hard to come by, if you want the hitter.
I'm struggling to even think of a comparable trade, any help from my esteemed yinzers?
Not what you're looking for, but Ashcraft should be more in-demand than Malone was and I'd be happy to throw in a low-A SS prospect and get two years of someone like Marte.
Unfortunately, we have Cherington and some other team doesn't.
Even in a dinky trade like Horwitz, the Pirates gave up three pitchers.
I saw him a few weeks ago when I was in Bradenton at practices, a simulated game and a spring training game or two. My analysis (which should mean very little) is that he looked like he will be a major league pitcher, but didn't really have a game plan as far as setting up hitters.
I think we're unfortunately mistaken on the balance of supply across the league right now. Seems much harder to develop bats than arms.
The type of bat we'd actually like starts with Bubba and probably adds from there.
It’s hard to hit a hundred…even if it’s middle middle.
my hot take is that this explains the majority of the difference between pirate hitting and pitching developmental success.
if nick gonzales replicates his 2024 season he's as much of a developmental success as mitch keller and absolutely nobody will agree with that.
For me the reason the comparison doesn’t work is because Keller has demonstrated All-Star level ability for half a season, while Nick G hasn’t come close to that kind of production yet. But I do see what you mean.
respect your opinion, but will double down on my belief that if a similar hitter had taken four years to get his footing and then regressed after a half-season of All Star-level performance we'd universally consider that a developmental *failure*.
Arkys bets for the season.
Bucs on the over of 75.5 wins.
Bucs win it all.
Cruz to hit 40 homers.
I went with that same over on wins, plus a 75-80 win 'window' at +270. Now just have to wait 6 months.......
I looked long and hard at many of the Cruz futures because if he breaks out some of the numbers would look silly. I couldn’t pass up the over (20.5) on SB. If he’s healthy he easily beats that.
You got me looking for that bet on fanduel and couldn't find it. He is plus 280 at 30 or more stolen bases. I'm thinking about that.
It’s there…that’s where I bet it. It is buried in the stolen bases category
Found it and just mad the bet. Thanks for the tip.
Watched the game yesterday and was interested in Harrington.
Inning one went swimmingly.
Inning two was a bit more rough.
He came back in the third and threw a bit and looked ok, as if they'd discussed something in the dugout.
If he's gonna be Maddux-Lite he doesn't need to be lights out but needs certainly to be better than yesterday.
I'm down with the Mlod Squad Piggy Back ride. Hoping for good things from him and thinking Harrington has a bright future not so far down the path.
Pirates management has to do a balancing act of putting the best MLB roster on the field and managing assets to maximize service time.
They seemed to have made a change in their approach last year with how they managed Jones and Skenes. However this year by choosing Mlod over any one of the rookies, it appears they are prioritizing the future over the present once again.
Anyone else see it differently?
agree with Bucsfan, good conversation starter my friend.
Your presumption of service time manipulation seems to handwaive a pretty obvious difference in present talent/preparedness.
How would you argue that Carmen Mlodzinski wasn't the best pitcher of the bunch this spring?
I'm more bummed that they're entering the year without a single one of Burrows/Ashcraft/Nicolas in the pen. Hard for me to argue any of them plus Bubba and Harrington earned a rotation spot, though, as much as I wish they did.
Their easiest path to contention in my eyes is a fire-breathing multi-inning reliever crew with Burrows and Ashcraft leading the way.
That’s one of the reasons I wanted Mlod in the bullpen rather than the rotation. He seems better suited for that role due to his limited repertoire of pitches.
also my biggest point in favor of Harrington in the rotation, he was just way too hittable for my taste this spring. Couple ticks less velo and good not great command is a slippy slope for a guy like him. Give him and Bubba a month to duke it out.
Points for slippy…
I see it different. I think the FO is a bunch of bumbling boobs that completely mismanaged their assets by not managing their years of control on Jones and Skenes—the biggest asset the team has ever had. As for the current AAA guys, none of them has shown they’re fully major league ready and all have limited AAA experience. So I’m fine with this decision.
I agree that they should’ve manipulated service time. I’m one of the few that’s a big fan of doing that. Entirely possible that they regret the decision they made and are handling differently, but I’m also not sure how much of a difference it makes with a guy like Harrington, who in all likelihood won’t be a perennial all star?
In Jones' case, they may have figured either he'd struggle and they could send him down for a couple of week to gain that extra year of control or that they'd simply send him down around the All Star break to save some innings on his arm, again gaining that extra year of control. But between Jones' success and his injury, they couldn't do either and ended up trading _two weeks_ of '24 for all of '30. I'd say that's pretty bad mismanagement.
I see it different - I think Mlod is better than Harrington and the stats three years from now will demonstrate this
Mlod is also better than Luis Ortiz
Long term, I think Harrington is the better pitcher. He commands, and by commands I mean very well, 3-4 pitches. He may only have one above average pitch as it stands, but i think he has a better bet long term. Mlod essentially has two pitches, has never been much of a command guy, and his two pitches haven't necessarily been big bat misses.
In the grand scheme, I hope Mlod shoves, cause be it him or another depth guy become more trade assets.
Mlod has looked good this Spring, which hopefully is more representative of how he pitches than the near 5 ERA Pitcher he was in AA when he last was in a starting rotation.
Mlod was a first round draft pick and has better pedigree than Harrington also
Both were Competitive Balance A Picks - Mudge was #31 in 2020 and Harrington was #36 in 2022. I liked both picks, but Harrington has been more consistent in his development as a SP. Mudge was up and down as a SP; last year as a full-time SP was 2022 in AA, but filled in for the Pirates in middle, long relief, and SP in 2023 and 2024. Both are going to be very important parts of this pitching staff moving forward.
I suppose they could honestly think that Chandler and/or Harrington aren’t ready? Or that Mlod offers production equal or greater to than the still developing Chandler/Harrington? I can see this line of argument more with a high beta guy like Chandler. I think Harrington could come up and pitch passably as he is.
It would definitely seem to represent a departure. Good discussion starter Scott.
Bullpen battles. Original. Now.
11. Hunter Stratton….10%…100%
12. Ryan Borucki……..10%…100%
13. Pete Strzelecki…..60%….50%
————————————————————
14. Justin Lawrence….n/a…..30%
15. Joey Wentz………..50%….20%
Assuming Falter and Stratton healthy and ready to go, it comes down to 3 guys for 1 spot. Strzelecki was traded for in a minor trade and is out of options, so I give him the advantage. Lawrence was a late sign on a minor league deal, so he’s next. Wentz is also out of options but would be the 4th lefty in the bullpen, so I have him with the lowest odds.
Swap Stratton and strzelecki with wentz and Lawrence and then I agree.
I would most definitely put Strz at 0%…more likely to be DFA’d than make the squad
Lawrence was a waiver claim. He’s on the 40-man and has no options.
Good catch. My bad. Forgot about that.
I’m all for maximizing bullpen depth to start the season.
And that could be at least part of the rationale in going with Mlod in the rotation to start the season. Opens another spot to keep a reliever that would otherwise be available to other teams. They’ll churn through a lot of guys during the season anyway and I don’t have a problem letting the likes of Harrington, Chandler and even someone like Burrows spending time in AAA early on. Ideally, Mlod is a capable 5th for a bit and one (or some) of the young guys knock down the door and force their way onto the rotation and present themselves as a clear upgrade.
"And that could be at least part of the rationale in going with Mlod in the rotation to start the season. Opens another spot to keep a reliever that would otherwise be available to other teams."
I agree completely with this. However, I think Mlod is a guy who found a niche in the bullpen where his 2 plus pitches play. Trying to shoehorn him into a starter's role with only 2 plus pitches and sketchy command is a recipe for bad things IMO. They managed it with Ortiz though for a time, so they might be able to manage it with Mlod.
For a team with so much pitching depth, supposedly. They sure do ransack their best bullpen pieces quite often to supplement their starters.
This. I think Mlod opening a spot in the pen absolutely factored into his move. They are trying to keep as many arms in the fold.
I also wonder about several off days in the first few weeks so really only might need 4 starters for a bit so that allows the AAA guys to also stay on a regular schedule by going down