I think we will find that our defense will get much better as decisions are made and implemented for the long term. Commit to a MI of Oneil Cruz, 25, and Liover Peguero, 23, for the long term. Combined with Hayes, 27, and Triolo, 26, we have an excellent young infield that will only get better defensively the more they work together. Tellez and Joe are our 2024 First Basemen, and we know going into 2024 that we need to find a power hitting, excellent fielding 1B for 2025.
Our OF of Reynolds and Suwinski are very good, but we have a gap in CF that has existed for many years now. No amount of pitching can reduce the need for a solid defensive CF who can also hit. The Yankees and Pirates have a trade history, and they have a young CF, Everson Pereira 23, who was promoted to MLB last year and did not do well at the plate. Prior to the promotion he had 35 games at AAA and a .937 OPS in those games. Since the season ended, the Yankees have added OF's Juan Soto, Trent Grisham, Alex Verdugo, and Judge and Stanton are back also. Their best young CF, Jasson Dominguez could return from TJ Surgery late this year. The Yankees need relief pitching, and the Pirates are loaded. Take the gamble! Another option CF Ceddanne Rafaela is in Boston, and he put up better numbers at AAA and MLB than Pereira, but he is not as blocked from moving up as Pereira. If BC opens a line of communication with both teams, something good might happen.
We need to have these players in place in 2024 if we expect to be competing for the playoffs in 2025!
I’m still waiting for all these free agents to sign. I’d feel a lot better with Michael Lorenzen, Mike Clevinger or Domingo German. I still wouldn’t mind another power proven outfielder like duvall. But I will settle for a decent starter.
2 Catchers, 1 DH - 'Cutch, who hit much better than expected, and was a solid BB/K batter in 2023 - Total 3.
I think Cruz and Peguero will make a solid Middle infield. Not sure that we will go balls to the wall with Oneil Cruz, at least at the start of the season. Let him work the ankle and continue to build it up. Peguero is solid at 2B and almost as good at SS, so he could spell Cruz. As a 23 year old Rookie in 2023, I thought Peguero hit well in his first exposure to MLB pitching. Triolo is our Utility IF. Why? Hayes has averaged playing only 130 games the last 2 years at 3B so Triolo is an absolute necessity with his ability to play stellar D at 3B, only slightly less defensively at 2B, and just about the same at SS. Joe and Tellez could be a solid pairing at 1B. 6 IF - running total of 9 of the 26.
OF - 4. Suwinski, Reynolds, Olivares, and either Palacios or Bae. Suwinski can play CF against RHP's, but neither Bae or Suwinski have been very good against LHP's. If Olivares was able to play CF, he and Suwinski could platoon in CF, or we could trade for a RH hitting CF to be our 4th OF. 4 OF, running total of 13 position players and 13 Pitchers.
Everyone who can should read the article in The Athletic; “Why the Pirates Keep Losing.” It’s nothing really new and certainly isn’t encouraging, but it spells out things fairly clearly.
I read a fair amount about the Pirates and found The Athletic article to be a strong collection of stories all in one place. Unfortunately the stories are not good news. For instance, it is stunning the team’s biggest external FA signing was Russ Martin 2 years 17M - over a decade ago. It’s a good reminder the team is NOT serious about prioritizing winning, pretty incompetent, or both.
We all know the deal. The Pirates like all pro sports teams are an investment for the uber-rich. The organization is now worth $1.2 billion? He's been able to see his initial investment grow handsomely despite putting a lousy product on the field for years. Why would he sell? It's been a fantastic investment. I'm sure he wants to win. It's just not high on the priority list - maybe on page three somewhere near the bottom. Lately, it's popular to criticize the Steelers for 18 non-losing seasons, because they haven't won a playoff game in several years. You know what? I'd love to see the Pirates play winning baseball for several years in a row even without a championship. Beats the hell out of the last 30 years!
Forbes may say it’s worth $1.2b, but I highly doubt any reasonable investment group would pay that amount of money for a franchise that requires subsidies to be financially viable.
FWIW, The Athletic did a story a few years ago about Forbes’ valuation of Major League Baseball teams and interviewed a number of corporate accountants who do the books for equity funds, etc. when these teams are bought and sold. The accountants vouched for Forbes’ estimates, saying they were pretty close and getting better.
Also, it’s the subsidies that make these clubs so valuable. Like a license to print money.
If we were talking about 100% revenue sharing like the NFL, I would whole heartedly agree. But, this is MLB; it’s a completely different animal. They aren’t printing as much as you think, and the only reason they are making any money is solely a function of revenue sharing (and free rent). Their lease is up in a couple years, and I bet they’re bracing for a contentious negotiation with the Pittsburgh Sports Authority. The thresholds in the original lease have very rarely been met, and the Pirates and PSA have had numerous disagreements on replacements versus leasehold improvements. The PSA will want their pound of flesh; this doesn’t bode well for the Pirates. All this to say, there is almost no upside to purchasing this franchise outside of pushing ticket prices higher and hoping for a bump in attendance both of which will be partially offset by revenue sharing going the other way. These franchises are purchased based on revenue potential, and when you’re subsidized in the MLB, it’s an indicator that it’s extremely limited.
This is a great investment for BN bc he literally bought the franchise as a distressed asset. This would be an absolutely horrible investment for new money at a $1.2B valuation; that’s my point. Values across the league will stagnate until they find the next revenue source to manipulate, like media revenues in the 2010s.
There’s certainly some new stuff in The Athletic piece. Nutting forcing the FO to take money for a weight room from player payroll, e.g. Plus the details about the Pirates’ ham-fisted approach to reconciling analytics with “old school” approaches
Well, a practice can be long-standing yet remain odious. Personally I think Nutting should spend down that league-leading profit the Pirates retain, per Forbes.
I’m not going to tell them how to spend it, but they need to spend it on something that makes the Pirates a better ball club.
The revelation that Nutting stripped the player payroll budget for money to build athletic facilities isn’t outrageous on its face if he was actually spending to near the limit of the Pirates’ revenue, like the Reds have in recent years, e.g.
Instead, god knows what he’s done with the money he gets from the rest of the league to make the Pirates more competitive. For all we know it paid for the distillery he bought last year, or that newspaper out in California.
A lot of “if’s” and not much of any real additions to last year’s roster. Olivares versus Andujar, Grandal versus Hedges and Tellez versus Santana can’t actually be seen as significant changes and none of them add any real value over those they replaced. I do believe Triolo is far more than a utility player. He deserves more attention than he’s getting and should be in the lineup somewhere most days with first base becoming his primary position after Tellez once again struggles as he did last year.
Yes, in a lot of ways I don't think we're better off than we were 12 months ago and that's worrisome in year 5. Some will point to having Cruz back but at this time last year he was healthy and primed for a big season. Now he's coming back from not having played a meaningful game in 10 months. We also had a healthy Brubaker, optimism about Roansy, Ortiz, and Oviedo, and anticipation of Priester and Burrows being ready midseason. As for Hill, VV, Santana, and Hedges vs. Perez, Gonzales, Tellez, and Grandal, that seems like a wash.
We can hope we have fewer injuries, and we can hope that young players take big steps forward like Hayes did last year. But I'd like to have to count on hope a little less.
The one place where I think it's safe to say we're better is the pen. Weaker in the rotation (until midseason, but again relying heavily on a lot going right with Skenes, Jones, Bru, ...), about the same in position players, and stronger in the pen. Will that result in overall improvement?
It should be obvious by now that Davis was the Pirates #1 pick in 2021 for his bat and his arm but not his catching ability since they basically gave upon him catching awhile back. Then with the injury to Endy he was in the mix again until they got Yasmani Gran-pa. This team probably isn't going to seriously compete and the Pirates haven't really done anything to address that so it's pointless to send Davis back to Indy. Like any other major league player if you can produce offensively they will find a place for you or they can at least get something for you. Sending a guy back to learn "defense" isn't really a thing in mlb.
Agreed the Pirates defense could be very poor. Would like to see Triolo out there because of his defense, but feel Peggy probably has best upside at 2nd base. Maybe get Triolo some time at first? Also, really think this team has a solid player in Joe, and hope he doesn’t get traded. Finally, I think Cruz is the biggest wild card in this team. The missed season, during a critical year of development, could result in a step back. Penciling him in as the everyday shortstop causes concern for me.
Penciling Cruz in seems fine. Using permanent marker may be giving you heartburn. But remember the Pirates allowed Cruz to flounder at the plate for a couple months in 2022, so we'll probably see him in Shelton's lineup card most every game. I am very interested in seeing if Alcantara's bat can play during spring training, as a plan B shortstop.
Replace Palacios with Bae, and you have what I would want assuming no significant additions are made. I still would prefer signing Michael Taylor and platooning Jack/
I basically agree; tho Bae showed great promise as a base stealer last April, during the torrid start. He lost that aggressiveness. But I like your idea about Palacios and Olive
Bae is a passable defender in CF and has elite speed. He was awful with the bat last year, but coming into only his age 24 season, there is hope he could progress as a hitter.
Palacios was a good bit better hitter than Bae last season, but he was still pretty bad, and he has no defensive or baserunning value. And at age 28, he is what he is at this point- a marginal bat with limited value defensively and on the basepaths. He really is a personification of a replacement-level player.
I agree with everything you said about Joshua. However, I think everything the pirates have put out in the ether suggests he will make the OD roster. All offseason I had him circled as a dfa candidate but it turns out he probably wasn’t all that close. They talk about his ability to come off the bench, pinch hit, his gregariousness. At this point I would be surprised if he doesn’t go north.
I think we will find that our defense will get much better as decisions are made and implemented for the long term. Commit to a MI of Oneil Cruz, 25, and Liover Peguero, 23, for the long term. Combined with Hayes, 27, and Triolo, 26, we have an excellent young infield that will only get better defensively the more they work together. Tellez and Joe are our 2024 First Basemen, and we know going into 2024 that we need to find a power hitting, excellent fielding 1B for 2025.
Our OF of Reynolds and Suwinski are very good, but we have a gap in CF that has existed for many years now. No amount of pitching can reduce the need for a solid defensive CF who can also hit. The Yankees and Pirates have a trade history, and they have a young CF, Everson Pereira 23, who was promoted to MLB last year and did not do well at the plate. Prior to the promotion he had 35 games at AAA and a .937 OPS in those games. Since the season ended, the Yankees have added OF's Juan Soto, Trent Grisham, Alex Verdugo, and Judge and Stanton are back also. Their best young CF, Jasson Dominguez could return from TJ Surgery late this year. The Yankees need relief pitching, and the Pirates are loaded. Take the gamble! Another option CF Ceddanne Rafaela is in Boston, and he put up better numbers at AAA and MLB than Pereira, but he is not as blocked from moving up as Pereira. If BC opens a line of communication with both teams, something good might happen.
We need to have these players in place in 2024 if we expect to be competing for the playoffs in 2025!
I’m still waiting for all these free agents to sign. I’d feel a lot better with Michael Lorenzen, Mike Clevinger or Domingo German. I still wouldn’t mind another power proven outfielder like duvall. But I will settle for a decent starter.
Recap of my Opening Day roster predictions:
10. Henry Davis……………..90%
11. Edward Olivares………..90%
12. Liover Peguero…………90%
13. Nick Gonzales………….80%
——————————————————-
14. Ji-Hwan Bae…………….60%
15. Josh Palacios…………..40%
16. Jason Delay……………..20%
17. Ali Sanchez………………10%
18. Alika Williams…………..10%
19. Canaan Smith-Njigba….5%
20. Jake Lamb………………….5%
21. Joe Perez……………………5%
22. Sergio Alcantara…………5%
I have them taking 13 pitchers north. And Triolo as a lock.
Man I am sorry but your numbers are non sensical. For your own safety never bet or risk anything that is probability based.
If you had read my first lost, you would understand. But you didnt. So you blindly criticize.
Nope I did…and I’ve seen it elsewhere previous years. It doesn’t make sense.
It accounts for the likelihood there will be 1 or more injuries during spring training. If that doesnt make sense then i dont know what else to say.
2 Catchers, 1 DH - 'Cutch, who hit much better than expected, and was a solid BB/K batter in 2023 - Total 3.
I think Cruz and Peguero will make a solid Middle infield. Not sure that we will go balls to the wall with Oneil Cruz, at least at the start of the season. Let him work the ankle and continue to build it up. Peguero is solid at 2B and almost as good at SS, so he could spell Cruz. As a 23 year old Rookie in 2023, I thought Peguero hit well in his first exposure to MLB pitching. Triolo is our Utility IF. Why? Hayes has averaged playing only 130 games the last 2 years at 3B so Triolo is an absolute necessity with his ability to play stellar D at 3B, only slightly less defensively at 2B, and just about the same at SS. Joe and Tellez could be a solid pairing at 1B. 6 IF - running total of 9 of the 26.
OF - 4. Suwinski, Reynolds, Olivares, and either Palacios or Bae. Suwinski can play CF against RHP's, but neither Bae or Suwinski have been very good against LHP's. If Olivares was able to play CF, he and Suwinski could platoon in CF, or we could trade for a RH hitting CF to be our 4th OF. 4 OF, running total of 13 position players and 13 Pitchers.
remember when they said Corey Dickerson was a bad defender and then he came here and won a gold glove?
Everyone who can should read the article in The Athletic; “Why the Pirates Keep Losing.” It’s nothing really new and certainly isn’t encouraging, but it spells out things fairly clearly.
I read a fair amount about the Pirates and found The Athletic article to be a strong collection of stories all in one place. Unfortunately the stories are not good news. For instance, it is stunning the team’s biggest external FA signing was Russ Martin 2 years 17M - over a decade ago. It’s a good reminder the team is NOT serious about prioritizing winning, pretty incompetent, or both.
We all know the deal. The Pirates like all pro sports teams are an investment for the uber-rich. The organization is now worth $1.2 billion? He's been able to see his initial investment grow handsomely despite putting a lousy product on the field for years. Why would he sell? It's been a fantastic investment. I'm sure he wants to win. It's just not high on the priority list - maybe on page three somewhere near the bottom. Lately, it's popular to criticize the Steelers for 18 non-losing seasons, because they haven't won a playoff game in several years. You know what? I'd love to see the Pirates play winning baseball for several years in a row even without a championship. Beats the hell out of the last 30 years!
Forbes may say it’s worth $1.2b, but I highly doubt any reasonable investment group would pay that amount of money for a franchise that requires subsidies to be financially viable.
FWIW, The Athletic did a story a few years ago about Forbes’ valuation of Major League Baseball teams and interviewed a number of corporate accountants who do the books for equity funds, etc. when these teams are bought and sold. The accountants vouched for Forbes’ estimates, saying they were pretty close and getting better.
Also, it’s the subsidies that make these clubs so valuable. Like a license to print money.
If we were talking about 100% revenue sharing like the NFL, I would whole heartedly agree. But, this is MLB; it’s a completely different animal. They aren’t printing as much as you think, and the only reason they are making any money is solely a function of revenue sharing (and free rent). Their lease is up in a couple years, and I bet they’re bracing for a contentious negotiation with the Pittsburgh Sports Authority. The thresholds in the original lease have very rarely been met, and the Pirates and PSA have had numerous disagreements on replacements versus leasehold improvements. The PSA will want their pound of flesh; this doesn’t bode well for the Pirates. All this to say, there is almost no upside to purchasing this franchise outside of pushing ticket prices higher and hoping for a bump in attendance both of which will be partially offset by revenue sharing going the other way. These franchises are purchased based on revenue potential, and when you’re subsidized in the MLB, it’s an indicator that it’s extremely limited.
He won't sell because the value of the franchise continues to grow. If the PSA plays hardball he can move the team. It's a great investment.
This is a great investment for BN bc he literally bought the franchise as a distressed asset. This would be an absolutely horrible investment for new money at a $1.2B valuation; that’s my point. Values across the league will stagnate until they find the next revenue source to manipulate, like media revenues in the 2010s.
I’d take losing seasons with a ring, personally
There’s certainly some new stuff in The Athletic piece. Nutting forcing the FO to take money for a weight room from player payroll, e.g. Plus the details about the Pirates’ ham-fisted approach to reconciling analytics with “old school” approaches
Where do y'all think the money came from for the Dominican facility they built under Huntington?
Not sniping you on the article being worthy of a read, but this is exactly how they've always acted.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/2008/01/22/Pirates-see-Dominican-facility-as-part-of-first-class-outfit/stories/200801220173
Well, a practice can be long-standing yet remain odious. Personally I think Nutting should spend down that league-leading profit the Pirates retain, per Forbes.
I’m not going to tell them how to spend it, but they need to spend it on something that makes the Pirates a better ball club.
The revelation that Nutting stripped the player payroll budget for money to build athletic facilities isn’t outrageous on its face if he was actually spending to near the limit of the Pirates’ revenue, like the Reds have in recent years, e.g.
Instead, god knows what he’s done with the money he gets from the rest of the league to make the Pirates more competitive. For all we know it paid for the distillery he bought last year, or that newspaper out in California.
A lot of “if’s” and not much of any real additions to last year’s roster. Olivares versus Andujar, Grandal versus Hedges and Tellez versus Santana can’t actually be seen as significant changes and none of them add any real value over those they replaced. I do believe Triolo is far more than a utility player. He deserves more attention than he’s getting and should be in the lineup somewhere most days with first base becoming his primary position after Tellez once again struggles as he did last year.
Yes, in a lot of ways I don't think we're better off than we were 12 months ago and that's worrisome in year 5. Some will point to having Cruz back but at this time last year he was healthy and primed for a big season. Now he's coming back from not having played a meaningful game in 10 months. We also had a healthy Brubaker, optimism about Roansy, Ortiz, and Oviedo, and anticipation of Priester and Burrows being ready midseason. As for Hill, VV, Santana, and Hedges vs. Perez, Gonzales, Tellez, and Grandal, that seems like a wash.
We can hope we have fewer injuries, and we can hope that young players take big steps forward like Hayes did last year. But I'd like to have to count on hope a little less.
The one place where I think it's safe to say we're better is the pen. Weaker in the rotation (until midseason, but again relying heavily on a lot going right with Skenes, Jones, Bru, ...), about the same in position players, and stronger in the pen. Will that result in overall improvement?
I am absolutely STOKED to see Oneil Cruz back on a baseball field.
It should be obvious by now that Davis was the Pirates #1 pick in 2021 for his bat and his arm but not his catching ability since they basically gave upon him catching awhile back. Then with the injury to Endy he was in the mix again until they got Yasmani Gran-pa. This team probably isn't going to seriously compete and the Pirates haven't really done anything to address that so it's pointless to send Davis back to Indy. Like any other major league player if you can produce offensively they will find a place for you or they can at least get something for you. Sending a guy back to learn "defense" isn't really a thing in mlb.
Agreed the Pirates defense could be very poor. Would like to see Triolo out there because of his defense, but feel Peggy probably has best upside at 2nd base. Maybe get Triolo some time at first? Also, really think this team has a solid player in Joe, and hope he doesn’t get traded. Finally, I think Cruz is the biggest wild card in this team. The missed season, during a critical year of development, could result in a step back. Penciling him in as the everyday shortstop causes concern for me.
2b defense is gonna be above average at least, Gonzales, Peggy and Triolo are above average defenders. Bae is the only one who is subpar.
Penciling Cruz in seems fine. Using permanent marker may be giving you heartburn. But remember the Pirates allowed Cruz to flounder at the plate for a couple months in 2022, so we'll probably see him in Shelton's lineup card most every game. I am very interested in seeing if Alcantara's bat can play during spring training, as a plan B shortstop.
Replace Palacios with Bae, and you have what I would want assuming no significant additions are made. I still would prefer signing Michael Taylor and platooning Jack/
Olivares in right.
Yes, I'd love to see us acquire an plus defender for CF. Then we could envision an above average defense.
I basically agree; tho Bae showed great promise as a base stealer last April, during the torrid start. He lost that aggressiveness. But I like your idea about Palacios and Olive
Bae is a passable defender in CF and has elite speed. He was awful with the bat last year, but coming into only his age 24 season, there is hope he could progress as a hitter.
Palacios was a good bit better hitter than Bae last season, but he was still pretty bad, and he has no defensive or baserunning value. And at age 28, he is what he is at this point- a marginal bat with limited value defensively and on the basepaths. He really is a personification of a replacement-level player.
I agree with everything you said about Joshua. However, I think everything the pirates have put out in the ether suggests he will make the OD roster. All offseason I had him circled as a dfa candidate but it turns out he probably wasn’t all that close. They talk about his ability to come off the bench, pinch hit, his gregariousness. At this point I would be surprised if he doesn’t go north.
I agree. And it's unfortunate